Who is doing the protocol right now>> Would like to know how you started and if you started out slow or just jumped it? With or without ABX. > ??
[ 04. December 2008, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by Lymeorsomething (Member # 16359) on :
I'm about to try this too as it is really easy to pull off, but I too am curious to know if it really helped anyone...
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
I have hypertension. I wouldn't touch that protocol with a 10 ft pole.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I actually started today.. And it is an interesting feeling already how you feel when you drink the salt. It feels as if it is needed and it is changing the chemistry inside of me.. So we will see how it goes.. It can not hurt as far as I know... I am doing it
Posted by Lymeorsomething (Member # 16359) on :
seek, i hear ya. my pressure has been low normal with lyme and pulse somewhat low so i feel i may be able to pull it off with moderate doses...
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
I have been on salt/c for a little over 2 yrs and it has helped me tremendously. I have gotten rid of 80-90 % of my infections.
Very powerful because it puts the parasites into osmotic shock. Salt is a natural bacteriocide.
I use sea salt not the tablets. I think the key for me was to start this slowly and not race. I ALSO DRINK A LOT OF WATER.
Both vitc and sea salt are water soluble. I am very careful when I start a new protocol.
You can always increase doses of anything when appropriate.
The people on LYMESTRATEGIES are the people with Lyme who are doing the salt/ c along with other modalities such as antibiotics and other alternatives.
Their motto is PACE NOT RACE.
Some people are salt sensitive and can have b/p issues. Always check with your doctor.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi When you say start slow.. how low of dosages did you start. As well from what i read you are not supposed to use sea salt or things that have any impurities or additives,,,, below is example of what I read. is this something you knew and just felt it worked ok.?? I am glad to hear someone who has success.
Sea salt, as well as ordinary table salt , also contains other compounds and we think it is the sodium chloride itself which does the trick. Our fear is that some salts contain multiple elements and these additions may compromise the treatment. The added elements could aid the parasites in their survival.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thanks for the referance to LymeStragies on Yahoo. Thats a neat group and I think i can learn from them.. THANKS
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
I am curious about this as well.
I have hypotension (very low blood pressure), so I think it could be good in that respect too.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Our Bodys need salt(sea) with the minerals, not the harmful table salt.
Vitamin C and Salt are great support for the adrenals.
Deb, your body probably needs the vitc and minerals.
Just remember to go SLOW and not go too fast so your body can assimilate what it needs. (DRINK PLENTY OF WATER)
Good Luck,
Gael
Posted by bejoy (Member # 11129) on :
I used a modified salt C. I was on about 2/3 th salt dose recommended by the protocol. More was too much for me. It helped.
At least one person on this board has posted that she did herself some serious lasting damage from this protocol. Please be very, very careful. To much of a good thing can be a bad thing.
Those with hypotension and low cortisol do need salt. Also, salt helps treatment cross cellular walls. And yes, sea salt or make sure to add minerals if using the plain stuff.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Deb,
I believe (the parasitologist) who developed the protocol was referring to the minerals in the sea salt as possibly aiding the parasites in their survival.
I just think they can't survive the sodium chloride in the sea salt.
We desperately need the minerals. Taking the pure sodium chloride made me uncomfortable.
A lot of people on lymestrategies are taking the sea salt and they also do other protocols like antibiotics and herbs etc.
I might consider taking antparasitic herbs again, but so far I have die off every day with the sea salt. Eating potassium rich foods is also a good idea.
Everyone has to listen to their bodies and what is going on. Our own intuition is the most valuable tool we have.
Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Deb,
Forgot to add that I started with 1/4 tsp salt and 1/4 tsp of vit c.
You are supposed to always do equal amounts of salt and equal amounts of C.
I started to increase the dose 1/4 tsp at a time.
I don't remember exactly, but i think it was a week or 2 after I started the first dose that i increased it.
You will know what you can tolerate by the herx. Diarrhea is a sign of die off.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thanks for all the ideas and support. I will take it slow. I read not to take more than 18grams in a 24 hour time and 15 is normal. I am starting at 8 this first week and then will see.. Then maybe will do 12. Does it matter much if I just did it two times a day or should I make sure to space it out.. I assume I better space it and and do smaller amounts but at the 4 x a day instead of 2 x a day at a little more..?? I will listen to my body and keep an eye on how I react. I did get a note that someone has died on this protocol but i am curious to see more details as to why and if it was exactly related to the C and salt and or other reasons? Anyone else heard of something this dramatic related to this treatment?
[ 03. December 2008, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thanks it looks like we are posting at the exact same time. How long were you on this protocol and are you still on it??
I was thiniking long term may not be so great but I do not mind trying for while and aI have read that these buggers cycle and you have to keep going to catch the cycles but i did not see how long those cycles are exactly. I guess I got to keep reading.
1/4 sounds about like what I am starting at... 4x a day... Which is about 8 total a 24 hour period or so
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Ps.. What about using the EmergenC packets for the C and they have minerals and other things in it that will supply what your saying I should make sure I have too.. Thats what I started with.. Lots of nice flavors too..
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
I just pmd you. 8 gms IS WAY TOO MUCH TO START WITH.!!!
I only started with 1/4tsp or 1 gm. 1 tsp is 5 gms. Slow Deb, Slow
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi.. Oh oh. Ok.. Well if you were taking 1/4 tsp 4 x a day that should be I guess more like 4 grams total .. I will take your advice. If it helps I have started at two times a day and not 4 for the first few days. So that means I am right at that 4grams...But I am going to space it out and do 4 x a day. I was not wanting to to 4 x right away..
I will say I felt last night my kidneys hurt a little. And I have not had that affect since after I had a huge herx on Mepron.
Wanting to be careful for sure.. No worries. I will.I promise.
been reading some past posts and hearing things like
My LLMD did not recommend this for women over 30 b/c of the effect the salt has bone deterioration . And also risks of Kidney Damage and Heart issue and high Blood Pressure. So far that is what I have read and am trying to educate as much as I can..
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Just want to be clear,
I started with 1/4 tsp A DAY (24 hr period)
Not 4x a day) for the 1st week and increased another 1/4 tsp A DAY the second week.
,So I took 1/2 tsp A DAY for the second week and stayed on that for a while.
I AM NOT A DOCTOR> THIS IS WHAT I TOOK. I AM NOT ADVISING ANYONE TO DO ANY OF THIS. JUST SHARING WHAT WORKED FOR ME!!
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Oh. Wow no wonder you freaked. But that is a tiny amount compared to all my reading. And everything I have read says our body will get rid of any extra you do not uses and it says to take it four times a day. I have not really found anywhere it says to work up even which is a logical thing to do .. So I agree.. I will keep reading and of course I will be careful. ...
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
The people on Lymestrategies will tell you DEFINITELY to start slow. Their motto is PACE NOT RACE.
I do 4x a day now, but I started at 1x a day for quite a while. Yes salt is water soluble, but you have to drink lots of water.
PLEASE TELL ME YOU"RE DRINKING PLENTY OF WATER. Where did you read to START 4x a day?
Maybe I am wrong, but i am very conservative and I would rather err on the side of caution.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
On this site and a couple other places too... thats why.
From experimenting with the treatment of salt and vitamin C, we settled on a dosage of 3 grams of salt and 3,000 mg of vitamin C, each dose taken 4 times per day.Depending upon one's weight this would approximate one gram for each ten pounds of body weight. We think total daily dosage should not exceed 18 grams of salt or Vitamin C per day, and 15 grams would be the average adult's dosage for a full 24 hour period.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I will keep in touch on how it goes..
THANKs for all the info and comments and I will be very careful. It seems there are only a select few here that know the details or have done this protocol and I did not realize that it was not more widespread or just an easy going option to try..
I am realizing it is much more complicated and there are many more considerations that one would think
THANKS for alerting me and for pointing me in the right direction. HEAL and BE WELL and Happy Thanksgiving if I am not back here tomorrrow but I think I will be.
[ 03. December 2008, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Thanks for posting the lymephotos site Deb. Yes I remember reading that now.
I guess I am just very conservative and I have learned to listen to my own intuition.
I just think going slow in the beginning is the wise thing to do. HAPPY THANSGIVING TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE,
Gael
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
it has been my savior. on it for 6.5 months and outside of the herxes seeing marked improvement. buy the ebook, worth it. read the old posts, most of the people that have gotten well with salt c are at the beginning of the blog and have moved on with their lives.
i have been reading all the old posts and emailing people to see if they are still well today and beleive it or not, most are doing great. this protocol works.
good luck
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Great postings.
I've started this 3 days ago. I'm taking 1/8 tsp of salt and C a day.
I'm using Himalyan (spelling) salt. It's suppose to be the purest salt available.
So far I've noticed that I get the chills everytime I take the protocal.
D'Ann
Posted by doc (Member # 14471) on :
Some see improvement , others have had very bad effects from it .
Please do a search here as there is alot of info from others. USE WITH CAUTION.
I did it for several mths with 20 to 30 percent improvement Doc (nickname)
Posted by steelbone (Member # 14014) on :
You can buy the salt in capsuals as well if you have a hard time drinking salt.
If you choose to use this protocol please be careful. Discuss with your LLMD...
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
It's dangerous. Do a thorough search on this site and read all the threads in the last few years before you embark on such a risky and unproven therapy.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
You said: " . . .It can not hurt as far as I know.." end quote.
Well, actually, it can. Excessive salt can be fatal, in some cases. It can trigger heart attack.
My concern is the possibly for kidney damage. A little boy recently died from salt overdose. He was not a lyme patient, however.
Be sure to read EVERYTHING about this that you can - and not just from the direct sites, either. Read about what the safe dose of salt is for normal - and also for diseased kidneys.
Remember that lyme can attack kidneys. Adrenal/endocrine & cardiac function is altered with lyme and that can affect how our body processes salt.
Don't just "jump into" anything - ever! I see you have done some study - but this requires a lot. Take your time.
You might ask your doctor to run kidney function tests first to be sure you are A-okay in that department.
-
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hello Everyone.. Wow.. Thank you for the idea and support and concern and warnings. I am listening and reading and researching much more now after reading all this and all you are saying. I is ending up to be much more controversial than I thought that is for sure... HAPPY HOLIDAYS And GOOD HEALTH TO ALL
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
I'd wait until after the holidays to begin anything different. One "normal" holiday meal can put a strain on anyone's system - especially their heart.
Take care.
-
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I agree to have my kidney and liver and other functions checked and consult with my doctor. I have had pains in my kidneys and heart / lung area and as well have MVP and Murmur. I am also having urinary symptoms lately that are worsening and after all the feedback and more reading am going to consult with my doctor.
Debbie.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
If people are all getting so well on this protocol and they are no longer on the forum wouldnt they come back and let us all know and share the succcess and idea? I did read back some of the earlier posts and did learn new things. If I got better on a treatment or there were numbers of people all getting better,, as in 98 percent as some claim. I would assume they would want to come back to share it all and help others ??? I do not see many posts like that and only since the start of this one some success comments and positive experiences... Deb
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
I think the people with success stories are posting at Lymestrategies.
Sammy said he has kept in touch with them to see if they are still well.
I don't think they would want to post here because of all the negative feedback they receive.
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
I noticed tonight in another thread you posted you are having kidney pain. Salt can be very hard on the kidneys and I would strongly advise you not to do this protocol if you are having any kidney pain.
Also do you know your blood type? People with type A blood do not do very well on anything but very low doses of Vitamin C in general because it is hard on their sensitive stomachs. Just two more things to take into consideration.
I agree with Oxygenbabe. Salt and C can be very very dangerous. I know at least one LLMD who is dead set against his patients doing Salt and C and he is very open minded about many alternative treatments.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
I have type A blood and I do really well on vitamin C.....who knows, maybe my need for it overrides that issue.
But yes, if you are having kidney pain, i would stop takign the salt/C for now. I would reconsider.....or if you do restart later, start much much much slower. I have heard of one LLMD that believes people still benefit somewhat from 3 or 4 grams of salt/C daily......sort of like a modification of the protocol. I'm sure even that could be dangerous to some though, so please exercise caution!
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
Hoosiers51 when I was young I could get away with taking more C then now in my old age. Check out the book Eat Right for your Type. He recommends very little C for anyone with type A blood.
You may be able to get away with taking a lot of C when you are young but that does not mean your body likes it. Has anyone muscle or pulse tested your body for vitamin C?
I use to be able to drink large amounts of orange juice as well. Oranges are on the list of foods for type A blood people to avoid and sure enough if I drink more then a tiny glass of OJ now my stomach will start to hurt.
I am not someone who can drink lemon water for a herx either.
I believe strongly in eating for your blood type. Sure I sometimes eat things I should avoid but on the whole I try to follow the guidelines in the book.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hello. I sure appreciate you all paying such close attention to me and even other posts. Yes.. I have decided to stop and get my doctor to check me out ecs due to the kidney pain even though this pain has been there since my mepron treatment. My doc thought the mepron was doing its thing but it is still there and did get worse starting the salt. I have heard all your cautions and jumping in may not have been so easy and simple and that is why I put the post up so it sure worked. I wanted to hear from you all. THANK YOU so much.. As well I am a Type A. How ironic huh... Yes always have had a sensitive stomach and stomach issues but have learned to work around it etc. The modified version of this protocol may be best to try out and as well I will talk to my doc about the kidney issue and the protocol as well. So much appreciation to everyone and this post has gotten much more attention that I thought it would. But it has been a huge learning curve since I posted just two days ago..
Posted by gettingbetter (Member # 15306) on :
"http://www.lymephotos.com/index.shtml
From experimenting with the treatment of salt and vitamin C, we settled on a dosage of 3 grams of salt and 3,000 mg of vitamin C, each dose taken 4 times per day. Depending upon one's weight this would approximate one gram for each ten pounds of body weight. We think total daily dosage should not exceed 18 grams of salt or Vitamin C per day, and 15 grams would be the average adult's dosage for a full 24 hour period."
The dose used in the above statement was the goal to reach after starting very slowly and very gradually ramping up.
I used to be a member on the Lymestrategies site and downloaded the e-book on the protocol.
The e-book and multitudes of postings by Marc use a maximum goal of 12 grams a day as sufficiently effective for most cases.
This ramping up was advised to be done according to the feedback from each individual's body.
Everyone is different. Some people take months or longer to reach that goal, and some had strong enough responses that they can't get higher than a few divided grams a day.
Our daughter had great improvement with just 1 gram a day for a few months. Then she quit.
Some of those on the protocol are using it under the supervision of their practioners, from NDs to LLMDs. That is always advisable.
Sue G.
[ 27. November 2008, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: gettingbetter ]
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
i had some kidney pain too in the beginning, it was a herx. it passed within a few days and i haven't had it since. good idea to stop the protocol and check with md.
i am 6 months into this protocol and really seeing marked improvements so try and stick with it, if the md advises you too.
my md is amazed at my progress and all my labs etc have been fine.
also, when i was having kidney/ lbp i ran to my md and he checked all my values and everything was normal. in fact, my sodium blood values were below normal, if you can beleive that.
the lymestrategies site is great, read the posts from the WAY beginning. marc gives a lot og great advice and he is amazing. i owe him my life.
i did 11 months of abx and never felt as good as i do now. although everyone is different, and however you chose to get well, i wish you the best.
pm me if you need more advice.
Posted by Lymeorsomething (Member # 16359) on :
Is anyone creating their own salt capsules? If so, is this harder on the body or the same as drinking salt water? The taste of salt water can be a bit tough. I was thinking capsules may be easier to manage as long as you chased them with plenty of water....
Posted by Kingneptune11 (Member # 17751) on :
I think its good advice to research things before you jump into them......but that being said....
I dont see the Vit C/ Salt protocol being any more dangerous than taking antibiotics for several months to several years.....And I am not trying to sound glib with that comment.....
Personally......I think that desperate times call for desperate measures.......whether we are talking Ab's or other protocols......Some of us are so sick that there is no down side to risky treatments.....I am not trying to be dramatic, but I am 41 years old and I cant take another 10 years of what I have been thru.......When you have no quality of life, you have nothing....I realize I am only speaking for myself, but others probably feel the same......I dont fear death, I only fear living with this fatigue and pain the rest of my life......I know it sounds morbid, but that is my reality......
The Vit C/ Salt protocol makes sense to me.....Linus Pauling spoke alot about the importance of high doses of Vit C for health and to treat disease......I have always felt he was correct in his hypothesis......The use of salt makes sense too......The high dosage of salt should drastically change the living conditions in your body......This could kill alot of parasites and bacteria/spirochetes in my opinion......Sure, you need to monitor organ function and blood pressure, but it makes sense......at least to me.....We used to pore salt on slugs and worms when I was a kid, and it definitely killed them......just a thought....
Some people say we took in up to 20 grams of salt per day back when we cured our meat without refrigeration......Maybe the lower salt diet promoted since the late 70's has helped to allow things survive in our bodies.....Deer and other animals love "salt licks", my parents use them on the farm.....We get deer from all over that lick that salt for hours......That tells me that it might be natures way of healing or preventing illness.....possibly???? I always look to nature for answers.....
I heard of the boy who supposedly died from overdose of salt.....not sure if he didnt have something else going on....but you can definitely die from salt overdose......Just as you can die from Water overdose......My thought is that if you can kill yourself from too much salt, then you can DEFINITELY kill these dang spirochetes with it......go slow and steady....listen to your body.......
As a sidenote.....I have constantly craved salty foods since my illness......maybe that is my body telling me what I need....Anyone else have salt cravings too???? In fact, when we made home made ice cream as kids, I would eat the rock salt more than the ice cream.....The other kids would make fun of me.....Definitely makes you think.......????
And just to be clear......I am not a proponent of any single treatment......I think everyone is different and will respond in their own way.....I try to be open minded since there is no single cure for everyone.....as with most diseases.....Peace
Posted by Lymeorsomething (Member # 16359) on :
I agree and at 38 in somewhat of the same boat fatigue wise at least. I don't get salt cravings as much a generalized voracious hunger. I don't have diabetes and my thyroid is well-maintained so not sure what the mechanism is. I suspect maybe babs or perhaps a parasite of some kind.
Posted by lymielauren28 (Member # 13742) on :
Yes to the salt cravings!! I crave salt constantly and eat it in abundance since becoming ill...I look at it the same way - it's obviously something my body needs.
Lauren
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
I totally agree with King. Couldn't have said it better.
I do want to add that one of the first things they do when you go to an E.R. is give you saline.
Hmmmm....I am not so sure that these "Injury and one death case(s) are related to the salt/c protocol if they were done properly.
Could be other things they were taking, other problems they were having that went undetected.
Maybe they didn't drink enough water. Maybe they ingested too much salt. I can only tell you this protocol has saved my life.
I do think people should take sea salt instead of sodium chloride tablets. I think this is a much safer route to take.
I went slow and drank plenty of water. However I also had some kidney pain in the beginning because there was infection there and the salt/c was going after bacteria. (herx)
It's amazing to me with all the side effects and sometimes "Dire" warnings on medicines, whether antibiotics or something else that no one gets upset about that.
Antibiotics have saved my life more than once,
but also really screwed up my immune system and opened me up for more parasites.
If I would have had proper tx and diagnoses I probably wouldn't have needed them.
Does anyone have the details on the boy who suppossedly died from too much salt?
Scaring people away from this protocol is taking away an opportunity for them to possibly get well.
I am not stuck on any one protocol either. I am for whatever works. People should use their own intuition and do the research.
Gael
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
I personally after talking to my LLMD think this protocol is dangerous. I would rather have Lyme then die from a dangerous protocol. I may be desperate to get well but not desperate enough to do a protocol that is so dangerous that might kill me.
The canlyme.com forum forbids talking about the salt c protocol for good reason. I am all for alternative treatments just not dangerous ones known to be dangerous.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Some of us do not process salt properly and actually lose it through our kidneys so naturally we crave it. Low blood pressure can be a sign that someone would benefit from increasing salt intake.
I do not think increased salt is safe for everyone, it depends upon your body chemistry and whether or not your kidneys are impaired.
Even too much water can kill you by upsetting the electrolyte balance in the body. Most any treatment has had adverse reactions in some people, so this is always a consideration.
I think caution in indicated if you try this. I have not done this protocol, but being the low blood pressure type, I do crave salt and at times need it to counteract that "lightheaded" feeling.
Adrenal insufficiency is also a contributing factor.
Glad to know you will be checked by your doctor.
"Salt-eating And Oxidation Types:
Slow and fast oxidizers are determined by the ratios of calcium to potassium and sodium to magnesium. A rule of thumb is those slow oxidizers, who tend toward low blood pressure; can usually safely eat sea salt.
Fast oxidizers who normally have excessively high sodium levels, especially those with a tendency to high blood pressure, should reduce salt and foods high in salt content. from: Common Misconceptions Associated With Salt By Dr. Paul C. Eck and Dr. Larry Wilson"
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Okay, I just found the article about the unfortunate circumstances surrounding the death of the 15 mos. old boy who died of a salt overdose.
Unfortunately his depressed mother MURDERED HIM by giving him more than 3tsps of table salt AT ONE TIME!!
Equal to between 15-20gms of salt. Approx. 5 gms p/tsp.
For a 15 mos old that would probably be equal to double or triple that because of his low body weight.
PLUS the fact that he was born with serious medical problems because he was a preemie.
Now I know why you didn't post this information.
This isn't even in the ballpark of what we are talking about with the salt(sea)/C protocol.
I just don't get your motivation about putting this protocol down that has helped so many.
When done properly, many people are getting well from this not sicker.
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
Lets see one good reason to avoid this protocol is my LLMD told me it killed someone and to avoid it because it is dangerous. He was not speaking of this boy you are posting about. That is enough reason for me. Also my kidney does not like salt even though I have low blood pressure often and my stomach hates C.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hello. .. there seems to be such a wide spectrum of opinons from one extreme to the other. I know some are saying flat out do not try it... and I hear your concerns but as well... I hear the other side to and my scientific mind has not really seen or given me a reason to not try this.. and is pulling me towards .. This makes sense to try.. I now heard two who not only have had success on this post alone they have verified they in the very beginning had some kideny pain and it was sown to be a herx. This makes me feel much better. As well from someone who has intestinal problems and infections that were acute and huge enough to be in the ER and hospitalzed without answers many times.. I know there is something going on even just in my gut that needs killing. I too feel lots of times like King and I at times am willing to try much more radical things than this after years of being so sick you have No life. There is no simple answer but as well we all have to find our own paths and I appreciate all the feedback.. Pros and Cons...
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Angelica,
One of if not the best LLMDS in the country (Dr K) puts his patients on salt/c to deworm them.
Is your objection to using this protocol because you can't tolerate it, due to your blood type or sensitive stomach issues?
Totally understandable, but those are not everyones issues.
When you are stating hard facts you should back them up instead of (My LLMD said someone died) or killed?
You did say in an earlier post that a boy died from a salt overdose.
I think we all should know the facts about that if it's not the same case I found on line.
That case that I posted about is self evident.
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
glm1111 if you want to consume Salt and C fine. I think it is a dangerous protocol and my LLMD who is also popular and famous at least on this website thinks it is dangerous and that is good enough for me.
I have no idea who the person is who died from it nor did I feel the need to ask for further details. If my MD tells me something is dangerous and that someone died from doing it I believe him and don't need to waste my 30 minute appointment asking why so I can post that information for you. Sheesh! Give me a break.
Even if it did not bother my kidney or stomach I think there are safer protocols to do. I have NO INTEREST in doing Salt and C.
I am done posting on this thread. You know my opinion on Salt and C already and you are going to do what you want to do regardless of what I have to say. Posting on this thread is unproductive for me.
If this is not enough to discourage someone I don't know what else would be.
"I know you feel desperate but you might feel more so if you damage your heart and have new cardiac episodes and arrhythmias that won't go away even long after stopping salt or kidney damage that is permanent causing all kinds of problems.
One person I know ended up bedridden for three months after salt/c and another ended up in a wheelchair on oxygen; it was the one poor treatment decision I made and has had lasting consequences. Imagine adding new health problems to your current ones-- not a good idea. There are other options; please don't risk what little health you have left."
PS. I have read other posts on this forum about Salt and C making people really ill. Do this protocol at your own risk. It is not going to get my Good House Keeping Seal of Approval on it ever.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
That's the whole point, no one needs your Good Houskeeping seal of approval.
The only reason I have pursued this conversation is your negativity to a protocol that really has helped a lot of people.
Lyme complex is multisystemic and can affect the heart and the kidneys. Stop blaming it on the salt/c.
You just seem to be on some kind of personal campaign. People on here are intelligent enough to do the research and use their own judgement.
And you are way too vague with your info. It's a he said she said.
By the way when you posted that your LLMD said someone was killed by this protocol it was just another flag.
I just had a vision of someone falling into a vat of salt/c and getting "KILLED" because they were brined to death.
A person is not killed from an adverse reaction, they usually just die.
I have been doing this protocol for 2yrs and am healthier than I have been in 30yrs. (It saved my life)
FYI I have a medical background in allopathic medicine and holistic alternatives for over 30 yrs.
I hope your LLMD helps you heal.
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
i think we are all intelligent enough to do our own research. thank god, i did. salt c has been the best treatment decision i have made yet. i am seeing marked improvements, outside of herxes, in digestion, brain fog, pain and stiffness.
please read the old old posts on lymestrategies and see if it appeals to you. salt c is wide spectrum antibacterial and will get not only Bb but also babs, bart and other co's.
i swear by this protocol and am so happy i found it. but, to each his own. if someone got better with abx then i am very happy for you. i relapsed HARD after i stopped abx. i was on orals for 12 months. i have made more gains on salt c then i did the entire time on abx. everyone is different and we all want everyone to get well.
so, good luck. do your research. interrogate people that have had success. how did they do it? with abx? rife? salt c? I have personally emailed HUNDREDS of people that have gotten well and i did what they did to get well.
best of luck and happy t-day.
Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
My two cents - my osteopath says it can really hurt you.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Oxygenbabe,
Why aren't you trying to save people from the "dire" often life threating side affects from multiple doses of antibiotics and or other regular medicine.
If I saw you posting these warnings also, your argument might have more credibility as "In trying to help people" from harmful protocols.
One of the antfungals I was given had a side effect listed as possible cardiac arrest among other things.(not diflucan)Sorry, I can't remember the name.
Allopathic medicine has at different times been both benificial and detrimental to me (often life threatening and on the other hand has saved my life)
The same symptoms you have had mentioned can be identified with Lyme Complex and or herxing from different protocols.
Not to be offensive, and I am sorry you are so sick, but it sounds like you have an ongoing infection that you want to blame on the salt/c protocol.
I have a friend with chronic Lyme and whatever protocol she does and starts herxing from she blames on "the colonic, the dr, the energy medicine, the antibiotics etc.
It becomes obvious that she has severe neurolyme. I am not promoting any particular protocol.
For me I am open to whatever helps people get well, whether it is antibiotics, herbs, bionic 880, salt/c etc.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I think.. You all should just put up your experience and you own information in clear and fact filled format and leave out the back and forth jargen. It is taking me much longer to sift through as someone who is researching this.. And I hate to feel such tension between people who have much more in common than not ... and that is beating the diseases we are faced with and ... getting well. PEACE>> I say and. GOOD Will and Great Health To all!! Thank You.. so much for the information .. Debbie
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Deb,
Sorry about the back and forth bantering. I guess we have salt/c monitors. Here are the facts for me and my experience with this protocol.
I have been battling this disease since 1983. Diagnosed in 1999 by LLMD.
I have used antibiotics oral for 3-4yrs and IV rocephin for 6 mos. IVIG, IVC for 2 yrs.
I have done herbs for borrellia, bart, babs, mycoplasma, mycobacterium, parasites, worms, fungus, strep, staph,actinomycosis etc.
I have done alkalizing, juicing, macrobiotic diet, antifungal diet, meditation and lots of prayer.
The last(prayer) believe it or not is how I was literally guided to and found the salt/c protocol.
I believe everything I have done has helped me heal, but it was the Salt/C that really started to turn the corner for me.
It is a very powerful protocol.
Hope this helps you decide what direction you want to take in your healing, wishing you Peace & Light,
Gael
It has given me hope that I can put this disease into remission. I hope this gives you some more info that you need to help
Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
Gail you are on some sort of personal campaign. I find your mind closed to other input and your posts harsh and condescending.
I certainly have no desire to discuss this protocol with you any further. I don't need you attitude. I find it very invalidating and unjustified.
You are obviously not open to a amicable or pleasant discussion. It is your way and protocol or the highway.
I am glad Oxgenbabe has the energy to deal with you. I find you too caustic to want to try.
If you want to have a real discussion then drop your attitude and negativity at the door.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
GLM,
Thank you for sharing your story.
I didn't read much of the jibber jabber, so I don't want to pick sides.....but just wanted to say thanks for at least sharing your experiences so we can all hear both sides of it.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Your Welcome Hoosier,
My intention is to help people heal from this awful disease if I can.
When you have years of personal experience with different modalities that haven't worked, it's great to share with others what has.
This protocol may not be for everyone but it has helped many. Some people have reported that it was the only thing that did work.
Some are salt sensitive and have other issues. These individuals should always consult with their physician.
I am not attached to any one protocol and would never try and push anything on anyone.
I have always felt whatever works whether it's antibiotics, herbs or quantum physics is a blessing.
I just found Salt/C to be a very powerful protocol, and one that is giving me my life back.
If you need any info on this or any other modality I have discussed, I would be happy to share,
Be Well, gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Wow Gael You have tried it all. Thats amazing. I am always looking to try new things and I do keep trying but I am getting tired of the things I try becoming just a list. I am big on the mind body concept and do a lot of healing visualizations etc. But this has been a battle in so many angles. It is such a tough one . And to turn the cornor is a great thing and I would so love to feel that way and be on the other side of the curve. There are different things that help different people but i do believe our digestive system is a huge part of our health and.. do you know if this helps in the same concept of Cholestrymine as where you end up making sure it does not absorb into your blood stream through your intestines. I would think that killing off things in that digestive system would help making sure during the time even if your on ABX and the toxins are trying to get out of your body that you can make darn sure there is no reabsorbtion. That is where my mind goes when thinking of this therapy as well.. Thanks Much
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hmm reluctant to add this.. but i am a bit confused as Angelica posted the recent topic of Natrum Mur.
Natrum muriaticum is the homeopathic remedy commonly known as table salt or sodium chloride. !
Kinda Ironic isnt it??
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Deb,
As far as getting rid of toxins, when diarrhea occurs from the die off due to the salt/c, these toxins are flushed out of your system.
At times there were so many parasites and worms that came pouring out of me that I thought i was hooked up to the ocean.
If I am constipated I will do an extra VitC flush. I also have done a lot of clear warm water enemas to release dying organisms.
My guidance always prompted me to stay focused and KEEP IT SIMPLE.
I intuitvely felt strongly that meant getting rid of the parasites and the other infections would leave also.
That is what seems to be happening. You are right about the connection between the digestive system and the immune sytem.
The colon is truly where disease starts. If you need any other feedback, let me know,
Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Natrum Mur....(kinda like an oxymoron if you think about it) I am trying hard not to.
I have been reading lately the serioius relationship between salt and water deficiency and serious disease.
We are 75% saline,(close to sea salt composition) so if we have leaks of our body fluids thru sweating, diarrhea etc it make sense we would need to replace it.
By the way table salt is so detrimental because all of the vital minerals have been removed and it sits in our tissue and builds up as dead weight.(Truly toxic)
i recevied quite a few PMs so i think it is best to answer you all here.. i am up to 20 grams of salt c. using himalyan salt in "oo" capsules. seeing great improvements. my chronic dry mouth gone, stomach pain gone, sleep is deep and sound, brain fog markedly decreased, pain and stiffness decreased, acne improved, have lost 10 lbs without changing my diet... this is all after only being on salt c for 6 months...i still have a ways to go. the most imprortant thing is to detox the dead bugs out of you. i really detox a lot.
go slow, it took me a while to get up to full dose. be diligent and keep going. i am so glad i did.
i think we all went everyone to get well, so if you do it with abx then good for you. this is how i have chosen to get well. i hope all of you find your answer.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi Sam... am I to understand you are doing this along side your ABX. Can i ask what that protocol is and what your diagnosis overall is.?? THANKS appreciated.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
PS,, was the beginning part.. like first few weeks tough? Meaning should I time this when I am able to see a window of opportunity. such as not when I have Holiday company etc??Tx
Posted by Kingneptune11 (Member # 17751) on :
I guess I didnt realize that this thread was going to cause so much drama???? I am not trying to gang up on Angelica or Oxygenbabe.....I think they both bring lots of good stuff to this board and I respect them.....I am only disagreeing with their opinion on the Vit C/Sea Salt protocol......And I freely admit that it might not work for me.....But, just as they provided "anectdotal" evidence that its "dangerous".......I too, have hearsay that its not dangerous, if you approach it with common sense......
There is no doubt that physicians will disagree with this treatment, and some physicians will agree......who is right???? It doesnt matter.....Just like it doesnt matter that we disagree on this board....Everyone needs to make EDUCATED decisions for themselves......Anything you put in your body can cause a reaction, good or bad......If you knew what was in our food supply, we wouldnt even be having this discussion.....lol Not to mention the stuff in our water......
That being said.....Lets not say right vs wrong or have personal attacks.....Lets just keep things as "agree or agree to disagree"......None of us have all the answers, otherwise we would not be here trying to help eachother......I have 8 years of college education, but I still cant figure out how to cure myself.....Maybe there is no cure for me.....Maybe the "answer" is there is no answer.....I really dont know.....I am going back on my "raw diet", taking my supplements, doing Rife treatments and I am going to try the Vit C/ Seasalt next month.....I will keep everyone updated......
Angelica and OxygenBabe......I extend to you my gratitude for your opinions.....I know your heart is in the right place.....Even though I dont agree with you on this, I still respect you and what you bring to the board......Please dont leave this board over a difference in opinion......We are all searching for answers..........Its not easy for anyone with this illness or any illness for that matter.....Peace
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
i have lymee babs and bart did 11 months of abx and relapsed hard after stopping abx. i am not doing any more abx currently. just doing salt c and rifing. best of luck with everything.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
I did a search on here that was suggested by oxygenbabe and all I could find were positive stories on the salt/c protocol.
Everything else was anecdotal and hearsay of someone elses testimony.
I am not trying to push any one particular protocol, not even this one. I am for whatever works.
Always consult your doctor and do your own research.
I was never interested in arguing with anyone about this protocol, I am a peacemaker at heart.
Warning people about possible harm from anything is good. But not being able to back that info up makes it not credible.
It is a fear tactic and can keep people away from something that can possibly really help.
I don't think asking for first hand credible stories is unreasonable, if you are going to bash a protocol.
Here are some positive feedback stories..........PhilRich member # 6817....Fitstick member # 6812......Saltydog member # 6253 (sept 21st) Also GiGi member #259
I never meant to cause any drama, I am sorry if I did. We are all trying desperately to heal.
Peace & Healing to everyone,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi.. The more I search the more I see this protocol listed along side all the other alternative protocols to choose from and have not seen any dramatic warnings or issues around it that has been validated or any doctors recommendations against it or anything like that either.. it is becoming a protocol that people are given as a choice to try or add to their regemin. I am sure there have been some how have had trouble with it just like very other thing sometimes we do ok and sometimes not.> but I am not seeing any medical warnings or such.. THANKS for taking all the time to keep up on this post
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
KingNeptune.> I see your going to be starting the protocol in the next month.>I am as well and would love to hear from you and keep in touch as we move forward. Honestly I would not make a deal out of a new trial of anything like something that seems simple and not threatening but after reading the whole thread here I am thinking I need to be much more careful than I had preveously felt. Let me know.. As well.> May I ask what a Flash Member is?? I am pretty new here and was not sure. THANKS
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I have gotten some other positive feedback from another forum and not feeling as afraid.. But will take it slow. THANKS for all the support.
Posted by Kingneptune11 (Member # 17751) on :
Hey DebAZ.......Sounds good to me.....Lets share our progress on this thread and see if people are getting better....
I am going to start on Wed or Thurs this week....SO I will start posting my progress or whatever I am feeling.....
I am going to be using a top quality Celtic Sea Salt which is gray.....and full of nutrients.....Not sure what kind of Vit C I am going to use, but will talk to my nutritionist at the health food store.....
I may go ahead and start a new thread when I begin......Does anyone else want to do this with me????
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi King,
Yes, let's all keep in touch with our progress. Very good idea. Just thought I'd let you know if you're interested that I use Ester-C powder with bioflavinoids by Natrol.
I have been ordering it at Vitacost for $12.87 (8oz size) I used to pay over $20.00 a bottle from the Vitamin Shoppe....so, big savings.
Hope you do well with this. It is very effective and a very powerful protocol.
Keep in touch,
Gael
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
I too agree with King. I have heard some bad stories from people taking the antibiotics.
The Er visits, gall bladder removal, etc. and people who got worse and sorry they ever tried it.
In the same token I've heard it helps many people improve.
One needs to make up their own mind.
I agree research is the best way to make a choice.
I also stand by glm.
Fancy
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Hey King,
I'm in on the progress thread!! I'm using Himalayn salt.
My LLMD told me that she's seen progress doing this protocal.
A couple of patients reported that they did not see a big difference until they switched from Sea salt to the H salt.
I was looking all over for Ester Vit C in powder form on vita cost.
Thanks for the brand. have to look again.
[ 02. December 2008, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: FancyRatFan ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
This is great.. I think the more of us that stay in touch and keep in touch about how we are doing and what we feel and how to watch for things .. the better.. I am so happy... What do you think of using the emergency packets that are filled with the minerals etc and then add the salt to that drink that is made. I already do the Emergen C packets... I would like to hear your opinions..
Posted by Kingneptune11 (Member # 17751) on :
OK Guys and Gals......Looks like we have a group of people willing to give this a try.....I am going to start on Thurs....I will post a new thread the day I start and I think everyone should post their results too......Lets put this theory to the test.....
I am not sure about the Emergen-C???? Does that have MSG (Natural Flavors) or synthetic sugars in it????? So many of the store brands are full of junk in them......Aspartame and MSG just give me toxic overload headaches.....
I have heard Natrol is a good brand.....I will let you all know what I get from the Health Food Store.....I also think I am going to switch up my sources of salt, just to see if certain brands work better......Might not be a bad idea to experiment with different brands to see what works the best for each person.....
Thanks for joining in ladies.......
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Regarding Salt.. I have read from you all so many types and kinds and brands..some say make sure there are minerals etc and some say no... make sure it is just pure and simple salt... the protocol says
However, the brand of salt is not important, nor is its form, only its purity; do not use salt with any additives, such as table salt. Pure salt can be ordered over the internet at Saltworks. Do not use Kosher Salt.
Viitamin C EmergenC Packet drinks I already take.. I think this should be ok... I am unsure of the importance of the choices and as I said I have read so many..
[ 02. December 2008, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Everybody, This is terrific. I have been doing the salt/c for over 2 yrs. I have used celtic......himalyayan......and now I use Real salt......mined in Utah (GiGi recommends this one) I find it to be the least expensive.
I know the protocol says pure salt and you may be right. I found personally that any of these salts were equally effective for me.
And I think I really needed the minerals in the sea salt. Everyone is different. I always say, whatever works.
I have always used the Ester C powder with bioflavinoids by Natrol with no other additives and very good quality.
Always drink plenty of water with it.
God Speed To Us All!!
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Great..I am probably going to be gone for a couple weeks but will have my computer and may or may not start yet becauase I have to take care of my mother and can not risk having any herx or side affects. Last time I visited her she gave me some tea that was good for sleep that she had put together with various herbs and I was so sick in the am and we never figured out which ingredient did it but I can be very sensitive. I will watch for your posts and I am for sure in on this thread and want to participate and keep in touch with you all. THanks for the support. it fees better to try it with others.. Much. Deb
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Debaz
Emergen C has alot of additives like tapioca starch, glycine and others.
Stick with pure vitamin C if you can.
On the website "lyme Photos" there is a place where you can contact the people that produced the site and ask questions. They'd know best.
If you do so let us know what they said.
Fancy
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Deb,
I agree with Fancy about the emergen c you are taking. The additives probably are not good at all. Best of luck with your mom. Keep in touch and let us know how you are doing. Best wishes to your mom.
I looked around and here is a summary of what kind of salt and c to get and how to start and how to scale up etc.
The issue for me still is when I read salt source sites such as even "real salt" it says there is iodine in it. And I am getting a little confused on what salt is best. It is a little contradicting to me when I read and I first read to get only pure sodium chloride. Then when i read the sources they say they have iodine but maybe because it is natural it is ok?
Will you guys read this page and let me know what you think?
Deb
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Well Here I am. My mothers surgery canceled because she ran a fever for 4 days prior and they put it off for a month. So I am here and I am going to the healthfood store to get some supplies to start the protocol. After I change my tickets and take a detox bath! Well anyway.. see you guys and I have read further and deeper and I found the spot you told me about that says start with 1 gram of each
Begin with 1g per day of salt and 1g per day of vitamin C, and then gradually ramp up (increase your dose) over a period of weeks or even months to around 8-12g per day of each taken throughout the day. The rule of thumb for maximum target dose is 1g for every 15 lbs (6.75 kilos) of bodyweight. The rule of thumb for how fast to ramp up is to GO SLOWLY. Unlike `quick fix' treatments we have all been conditioned to expect in medicine, this is a gentle and gradual, but very powerful treatment. Regaining your health through Salt/C is no race; everyone improves at their own rate. The period of time in which you ramp up to full dose is dependent on how well you feel as you take the salt. When you feel very poorly at a dose, stay at that dose until you feel better again, and then increase the dose again. Or you may lower your dose until you feel better, then try increasing the dose again later. Some people can ramp-up to their full dose within 1-2 weeks, adding 1g per day, some add only 1g per week, and some people take many months to get to higher doses. Most people will feel a little better the first few days, but then gradually feel worse. This is defined as a `die-off' reaction from killing pathogenic bacteria and other bugs, or a `Herxheimer' effect (`herx' for short). For some people the herx involves exacerbation of symptoms they have had before. For others it involves completely new symptoms, often neurological in nature. The herx symptoms also tend to `flare-up' every 3-5 weeks during Salt/C. Some have remained at full dose after reaching "symptom-free" from Lyme, others have done just a low "maintenance dose" (average 3 grams/day).
Hope this helps us start but if you read the Lyme Stradegies site you will find this information. It is not exactly organized in a great way but its there
I joined just so I could look around and have not been part of the forum at all. Just reading and researching.
Deb.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Deb,
Thanks for the excellent info from lymestrategies for the instructions to the protocol.
I would have posted this, but I run in to complications when I try and copy and paste. At least it's here. Good job.
I am very conservative so I started with 1/4 tsp a day of salt and c. I ramped up slowly just like Marc suggested.
Have a safe trip,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thanks.. But well as I posted above I am not leaving now..The surgery for her was canceled and so was my trip one day before I was leaving.
So I am going to hopefully start the protocol here with the others this week. SOund good?? Deb.
I am reading more and I can cut and paste like crazy. Some of that site is hard to sift through and though I am getting more of the just of it all and how to start and how to progress etc.
THANKS for all your support. Can you tell me what percent you feel better since on it. >For 2 years now right?? LIke 50 percent or 80 or???? I am looking for a high number. : )
Deb
[ 03. December 2008, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Okay, I am at the 2 yr mark with the salt/c. I went from deathly ill to 80-90% better, depending on the day.
I am not going to kid anyone, it's been rough. Lots of emotional herxes as well. Remember these creatures are going to try and leave any way they can. They can't stand the salt.
They have made the body their home and have layed hundreds of thousands eggs a day. Everyone is different and it depends on how long you have been sick.
I AM getting my life back. I will never go off this protocol, because if just one egg is left the cycle will start all over again. Stay focused and know their is a way out.
Gael
Posted by steelbone (Member # 14014) on :
Gael
Did you have any co-infection's?
Nice to see that your getting better
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Thanks Paul,
I have/had bart, babs,erlichia(human monocytic erlichiosis as co-infections.
How about you? Where are you in regards to your treatment. What do you take? What king of healthcare bus. are you in?
Hope you are doing well,
Gael
Posted by steelbone (Member # 14014) on :
Gael My lyme is gone but still have bart and babs. i'm treating with the bionic 880. but i'm stopping until i have my fillings taken out.
the bionic is tough on the teeth if you having fillings
Best of luck with salt C to all
Posted by howtodetoxthebody (Member # 18331) on :
I tried the Vit C/Salt protocol last year. Unfortunately this is one that I can't recommend. I did it as recommended on the lyme photos site - using the salt pills from a pharmacy.
Every time I took a dose, I felt ill and dizzy within 10 minutes. I don't believe this was a herx, but rather a negative reaction to the salt.
Maybe if I tried the Himilayan or Real Salt as recommended above I would have had a different experience, but my experience left me feeling that this is a potentially dangerous protocol, and one that should be avoided.
I have found lots of good results with detox protocols, along with diet. You can see what worked for me at my website (in the signature)
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
hi.. Well I will say. I have started trying this last week for just two days and then i got so many warnings I took a seat back. Then in the past two days I did two more days in a row. And wow i feel so much better already.> Maybe that initial reaction. The only other think I changed was that I added a second dose of cholestrymine in the AM i already was taking that so I do not think that is it. So thought in the am. I take my thryoid med and wait 30 minutes. I take all my other meds for pain and supplements like D3 and maybe only 3 other basic and wait 30 minutes. Then I drink a Salt C drink (i have powered C and disolve Salt in water) and wait 30 minutes. Then I mix Cholesrymine and Miralax and drink and wait 30 minutes. Then I eat something like toast (i eat spelt bread) with almond milk). The theory is that after 30 minutes of taking Cholestymine if you eat it will activate your system to excete the bile and toxins and the cholestryine will absorb. It is a process but it is what I read on a site from Dr. T on timing of these components. I am on Ketek and I have not been able to take it without terrible Herxing unless I wait a week in between and not take it more then 3 days a week. This week so far I have had the least Herx and actually have tolerated it really well and I feel better than I have in quite a while. Maybe this is a short opening before the Salt Herxing but I will take it. THANKS so much for listening. PS at night I do the same routine. Meds first..then Salt C and then Cholestrymine/Miralax then eat
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi David,
I know what you mean about getting dizzy. I get vertigo from time to time. Since salt is a natural bacteriocide it would be going after the parasites.
When the parasites start to run especially in the brain, naturally it could make someone dizzy. I can only tell you of my experience, and for me this is a herx.
I think it has been so ingrained in us for years that salt is dangerous that we have an underlying fear of it.
In fact, we need salt, we are 75% saline and we lose it daily thru sweating etc. I looked at your website.
I have been "detoxing" for years with colonics, healthy diets, strong antiparasitic herbs, juicing, healthy probiotics etc.
I am sure it all helped and I might due more herbs again, but it was the salt/c that really turned things around for me
How are you doing with your detox? Are you in remission?
Be Well,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Oh goodness all the talk about the parasites and worms coming out of me is a little scary.. Ecs the one about the worm coming right out of the top of your head and I read someone else say they had worms coming out of their ears. Hmmm But at the same time if it happens I will be happy to be rid of them or be on my way to rid myself. I saw that girl on tv who they did brain surgery on and pulled the parasite out of her brain while they were digging around for a tumor they thought she had. it was huge. And they said they see more and more of these cases.. I am hoping for sure that I do get rid of any I might have. I read that 80 percent of people do have some. I am positive that there are most that are too small to see... And well I hope I do not have to see them.. LOL D
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Deb,
Your are a real trooper, keep going. Yes you can experience some strong herxes on the salt/c Just remember to go slow and drinks lots of water.
Before I forget, could you please delete some of your duplicate posts and break up your paragraphs so us neurolymies can read it better.
Thanks a bunch. Looking forward to your next progress report.
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi All
I know King said there will be a post starting Thursday and I will wait til she starts that post to talk about progress and all that..
But i am going to start on my first day tonight.. I also got the Pure Celtic Sea Salt. It is brownish in color too and for the C i have choosen buffered C Crystals.
I am going to disolve them. I will be interested in seeing if there is any diffrence in the other salt and C i tried just for those couple days a couple times.
Well as well Gael.. I got some coconut oil to try.. Organic Extra Virgin.. : ).. But one thing at a time I promise.. At least waiting to see how I do on the new thing i add. I have learned that lesson before.
PS I also told some other people on the 2nd board I am on sometimes. They asked if they are already on the protocol is they can jump into our thread and i said. ABSOLUTELY! I am excited actually. Something to look forward to and the communication itself is fun and it feels nice.
SO THANK YOU all! DEB
[ 03. December 2008, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Deb,
The worms coming out of the ears , nose and mouth are tiny, except I had some come out of my mouth that look like eggshell blue sewing thread just like from the Lymephotos! E-Gads!!!
I swear, Steven King couldn't have even written this one.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Yikes How long did it take for you to see that after starting??
PS sorry for the post that went up 3 times I tried to delete them and even checked the box that says delete post and waiting and when i went back they were still there. It sure looked like it was working.>? HM >
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
This is from another post.. But this lab is quite extensive and has testing for all the parasites and just about anything .. As well people were talking about they also have found some sort of bug that might be the same bug that Dr. F has been talking about well its interesting ..
I started my C and Salt about a week or so ago. I started with a 1/8 tsp of salt and equal gram of /C. a Day
First I would get the chills than a little dizzy but not bad.
Yesterday I went up to 1/4 tsp. No more chills. I do feel instantly slightly better. It is subtle but there.
I bought the Natrol Ester C that GlM is taking. Alot easier to drink than the powdered C I was taking.
I'm looking forward to seeing these buggers come out of me. It would really freak my boyfriend out. LOL
Fancy Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
I suppose this protocol is a death wish if you have hypertension??
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Seek, Salt and vitc are water soluble. It is possible that this disease is causing your high blood pressure. I posted something last week about salt DEFICIENCY can RAISE your blood pressure as well as cholestral.
I would be happy to research this angle more for you if you want me to. I also encourage you to do some research on that as well as the relation to sea salt and blood pressure.
Remember, there is always a cause as to why things are out of balance. How many years has your pressure been elevated, and how long have you not used salt in your diet?
We are 75% saline, which is very close to sea salt. Just some thought for you. Have you tried other herbs beside Humaworm?
Hang In There,
Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Seek, Salt and vitc are water soluble. It is possible that this disease is causing your high blood pressure. I posted something last week about salt DEFICIENCY can RAISE your blood pressure as well as cholestral.
I would be happy to research this angle more for you if you want me to. I also encourage you to do some research on that as well as the relation to sea salt and blood pressure.
Remember, there is always a cause as to why things are out of balance. How many years has your pressure been elevated, and how long have you not used salt in your diet?
We are 75% saline, which is very close to sea salt. Just some thought for you. Have you tried other herbs beside Humaworm?
Hang In There,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi
Sorry i missed the comment on breaking up posts. I will from now on do that. I totally understand and i should have caught on ..
I went back and deleted duplicates and broke a few up as well. This is becoming quite a long subject.
Well update...
I woke up feeling pretty bad today. Maybe the change in salt and C as I did get much more pure types or it could be that this is Day 3.
I want to say ahead of time that if I do herx badly I will have to keep the option open of pulsing as I have the abx.
Yes I am staying on the abx for now and for sure until more time goes by. I am taking abx just 3 days a week and every other week even if I start building into herxing.
I made an agreement with my doctor after years of severe herxing and no life that i can take them in what manner works but he does direct me after I report how I am doing each month.
So the Ketek is the only abx I am on and trying to take it MWF of each week but skip weeks at times.
Thats my status.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Deb,
Yes, duplicate posts happen once in a while from hitting the reply bar more than once because we don't think it went thru.,
I could only delete one of my duplicates, but will try again. Thanks for breaking up your post.
Much, much easier to read.,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Maybe we should write a chart for each of our start points.
SUCH AS
DATE STATED SALT C : KINDS OF SALT: KIND of C : AMOUNT STARTED : HOW IT IS SPLIT UP : PILLS OR LIQUID : ABX ON or OFF : ABX KIND DOSAGE: CHECK IN FOR DAY # :
For Me
DATE STATED SALT C : 12-2-08 KIND OF SALT : Eden Sea Salt French Celtic KIND OF C : Bluebonnet Buffered C Crystals AMOUNT STARTED : 1/4 tsp (I am 6ft tall and 215lbs)Optional HOW IT IS SPLIT UP: 1/8 tsp am +1/8 tsp pm PILLS OR LIQUID : Liquid drink combining Salt/C ABX ON or OFF : On ABX KIND DOSAGE: Ketek 400mg M W F weekly
CHECK IN FOR DAY # :# 2 - Felt quite great for 4 days prior taking Kosher Salt (a no no) and Vitamin c Emergen C pack of a combo of 1/8 tsp salt and 2 1000mg packets am and pm. (sorry if that confused you but I am considering Yesterday my first day because I found out I was not supposed to take the Kosher salt.)
CHECK IN FOR DAY # :# 2-Adding the new Salt and C on Day 1 i feel like a herx hit me and I feel painful and achy and flu like and icky today. But not too horrible as I am up and around this afternoon and I usually stay in bed all day on a severe herx.
Just wanted to add the details because I find that odd. I was feeling like I had not felt in a long time. Very weird. But I will keep on this therapy and back off on the amount or take breaks if I stay herxing.
Take good care. Looking forward to hearing for you. Deb
[ 03. December 2008, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
In addition to the necessary kidney function tests before beginning to add salt,
the links below are with the intention of helping in basic research for anyone exploring this. Salt poisoning can be fatal. Here are some things to watch out for:
Distinguishing between salt poisoning and hypernatraemic dehydration in children
Malcolm G Coulthard . . . Department of Paediatric Nephrology, Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 4LP, b Guy's, King's, and St Thomas's School of Medicine, London SE1 9RT
Hypernatraemia caused by salt poisoning or dehydration must be distinguished correctly, as the two situations need different legal and medical approaches. Two nephrologists discuss the physiology of hypernatraemia and explain how to differentiate between cases caused by salt poisoning and dehydration
- Full article at link above.
-
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
In some cases, I believe salt can help you stay hydrated.
Marathon runners and people cycling in extreme conditions sometimes take salt pills. (or at least they used to, I'm sure some still do)
Yes, salt provides electrolytes, but I believe it also has a role in maintaining hydration.
I think the pills athletes take are one gram (1,000 mg) each.
Also, the thing about high sodium casing hypertension has been debunked to a certain extent.
It isn't necessarily the high sodium that hurts you, it is when your ratio of sodium to potassium is too unbalanced.
Instead of restricting sodium, I have read of people with hypertension instead just maintaining an adequate balance of potassium to sodium.
Of course, if someone has poor nutrition and doesn't eat right, they probably don't get enough postassium, so you may be better off as an MD just telling them to restrict their sodium. But scientifically, the problem isn't merely "too much sodium."
If you have hypertension or are at risk for it, please don't take my advice as medical advice, because I am only reporting things I have read in articles, not scientific abstracts.
BUT, I will say that I believe there is some truth to them. I would never tell someone what is right for their body because I'm not an MD and I don't know what is right for each person....but I feel obligated to share what I have read because I think there are some misconceptions going around.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thanks for the information. The article that you gave a link to is about babies and deliberate overdosing for the most part so it was not that informative to me.
But I found another page that is overall good on risks and sodium details. Look at the site for more but here are are a few excepts,
Interesting -since I do not eat any processed food...
The majority of the sodium -- 77 percent -- comes from eating prepared or processed foods that contain the mineral.
National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine, have published recommendations for daily sodium intake. Most recommend between 1,500 and 2,400 milligrams (mg) a day for healthy adults
Some people are more sensitive to the effects of sodium than are others. People who are sodium sensitive retain sodium more easily, leading to excess fluid retention and increased blood pressure.
Bottom line is we all have to do our research and be careful in areas that are of concern related to sodium and each of us is different with different diagnosis and issues. The article is good to read I think.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hello everyone. I went ahead and started a NEW post that is for those of us trying it and want to keep track of the data and share progress.
Hope that is ok and if you want me to change the name or use something else just let me know..
Deb.
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
in order for this protocol to be successful you need to have patience and you need to be diligent....
i have not missed a dose of salt c in 7 months..
back off when the herxes become too rough and listen to your body..
determine which paths you are going to use to detox..i use enemas and saunas
remember this is not a quick fix and takes lots of time but the results are solid if you stick with it...
not many people can stick with it becuase the herxes are that hard... good luck
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Everyone,
Thanks Keebler for stating that you have positive intentions with your research even though the research links may come with some negative data.
That's okay. Since salt is water soluble it just makes more sense that cases of salt poisoning would be caused by dehydration.
What kind of salt was being ingested? Table salt or secondary salt sources from chemical salts? I have to research this to get better insight.
Hoosier, very good insight as to sodium/potassium balance that we all need. VERY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR ANY ONE DOING THIS PROTOCOL IS TO DRINK A LOT OF WATER!!!
Deb, have to find the post you are talking about.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Sammy is absolutely right about sticking to it. As I mentioned before, I have been doing this for 2yrs and have not missed a dose.
I am up to 20 grams a day of both sea salt and vit c taken in 4 divided doses. I always drink water with it and keep sipping it all day long.
The herxes can get very rough, but worth the effort. Just like with any protocol if the herxes get too rough, back off.
Thanks,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
THanks for the comments and support and ideas from you two who have been through this before. Slow and steady.. I gotcha.
Deb
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I was noticing how many people have looked at this post .. and how many people have posted things.. quite a lot compared to the other posts. What is the interest or controversy or intrigue in this/? I guess I stumbled onto this without realizing it was a subject that would get a lot of attention...
I appreciate all the warnings and worries and be careful coments and all those with support and sharing of positive results and details of how to do the protocol and what to expect.
This has been a great post and experience for me... I hope for others. I know this takes a long time and I am going into it not blindly and open to the possibility that I may have problems that do not allow me to continue or that I may not do respond like others.
But for me it is worth a try and I continue to stay educated and listen to everyone..
Deb
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Could it be fear, intrigue AND an underlying gut feeling that it could possibly be the answer for putting this horrid disease into remission.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why some of the naysayers of this protocol are the same people that will run and have chemotherapy (HIGHLY TOXIC POISONS) if they have cancer.
Or ingest medicines that have soooooooo many "dire" warnings" and side effects. Just really thinking out loud.
Well, just hoping we all can get on with our lives,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi all Gael forwarded a great site for more reading on the Salt issue. I guess none of are worried about to much C! : )
Here is the link and some of it below..
This is all from the above site and in referring to natural sea salt and not processed table salt...
"High Mineral Sea Salts - Gods Gifts..
1. Salt is most effective in stabilizing irregular heartbeats and, contrary to the misconception that it causes high blood pressure, it is actually essential for the regulation of blood pressure - in conjunction with water. Naturally the proportions are critical.
2. Salt is vital to the extraction of excess acidity from the cells in the body, particularly the brain cells.
3. Salt is vital for balancing the sugar levels in the blood; a needed element in diabetics.
4. Salt is vital for the generation of hydroelectric energy in cells in the body. It is used for local power generation at the sites of energy need by the cells.
5. Salt is vital to the nerve cells' communication and information processing all the time that the brain cells work, from the moment of conception to death.
6. Salt is vital for absorption of food particles through the intestinal tract.
7. Salt is vital for the clearance of the lungs of mucus plugs and sticky phlegm, particularly in asthma and cystic fibrosis.
8. Salt is vital for clearing up catarrh and congestion of the sinuses.
9. Salt is a strong natural antihistamine.
10. Salt is essential for the prevention of muscle cramps.
11. Salt is vital to prevent excess saliva production to the point that it flows out of the mouth during sleep. Needing to constantly mop up excess saliva indicates salt shortage.
12. Salt is absolutely vital to making the structure of bones firm. Osteoporosis, in a major way, is a result of salt and water shortage in the body.
13. Salt is vital for sleep regulation. It is a natural hypnotic.
14. Salt is a vitally needed element in the treatment of diabetics.
15. Salt on the tongue will stop persistent dry coughs.
16. Salt is vital for the prevention of gout and gouty arthritis.
17. Salt is vital for maintaining sexuality and libido.
18. Salt is vital for preventing varicose veins and spider veins on the legs and thighs.
19. Salt is vital to the communication and information processing nerve cells the entire time that the brain cells work - from the moment of conception to death.
20. Salt is vital for reducing a double chin. When the body is short of salt, it means the body really is short of water. The salivary glands sense the salt shortage and are obliged to produce more saliva to lubricate the act of chewing and swallowing and also to supply the stomach with water that it needs for breaking down foods. Circulation to the salivary glands increases and the blood vessels become "leaky" in order to supply the glands with water to manufacture saliva. The "leakiness" spills beyond the area of the glands themselves, causing increased bulk under the skin of the chin, the cheeks and into the neck.
21. Sea salt contains about 80 mineral elements that the body needs. Some of these elements are needed in trace amounts. Unrefined sea salt is a better choice of salt than other types of salt on the market. Ordinary table salt that is bought in the super markets has been stripped of its companion elements and contains additive elements such as aluminum silicate to keep it powdery and porous. Aluminum is a very toxic element in our nervous system. It is implicated as one of the primary causes of Alzheimer's disease. 22. Twenty-seven percent of the body's salt is in the bones. Osteoporosis results when the body needs more salt and takes it from the body. Bones are twenty-two percent water. Is it not obvious what happens to the bones when we're deficient in salt or water or both.
Thanks for the info. I was getting this protocol confused with the Marshal Protocol... I'm not really interested in the Marshal Protocol but this info that you have provided is intriguing.
I'm going to look into it when I'm able to start new therapies. I'm not a big salt eater but I can see that it may be useful.
Vitamin C flushes were suggested to me as a way of detoxing in relation to Dr. Shoemaker's detox. There is a particular special vitamin C that is used. I think it's Perque brand...? I think you are supposed to get a prescription for it.
Just a note - my doctor suggested to take something with fats as a way of dumping toxins from the bile after taking Chlorestramine (spelling?).
He said to take something with a "healthy" fat like cream cheese or a hard boiled egg about 40 or 45 minutes after the Chlorestramine or Welchol (which is what I was taking).
I'm sure it's good to proceed with caution as with any protocol. I think alot more people have died from pharmaceuticals or doctor malpractice than alternative medicine.
I don't see it as being necessary to dislike people if they chose to do one protocol or another... It makes no sense to me why people are so wrapped up that their opinion is correct & others are not.
We are all different. Lyme & company is complex. I don't know why it's so offensive to people to experiment to find what is right for "you" as an individual.
I guess people feel threatened by things that are different & they lash out... I feel you just have to do the research & make a decision that is best for you.
Please keep posting your results.
-----
PS - About Perque Vitamin C - (I don't sell it!)
Which Ascorbate Is Best to Use
It is preferable to use a 100% l-ascorbate, fully reduced, buffered mineral ascorbate form of vitamin C that contains a proper balance of the major essential buffering minerals:
1) potassium, 2) magnesium, 3) calcium, and 4) zinc.
No dl-ascorbate or d-ascorbate should be used as the d-ascorbate form is not absorbed by humans; people take up only the l-ascorbate. Per gram of ascorbate, we find best outcomes, patient compliance, and satisfaction from a balanced mineral content of potassium (66 mg.), calcium (27 mg.), magnesium (11 mg.), and zinc (400 mcg.).
* This means that if you were taking a half-teaspoon of buffered ascorbate that has no masking or ``inert'' agents in it, you would have 1.5 grams of ascorbate containing potassium, 99 mg.;
calcium, 40 mg.; magnesium, 16 mg.; and zinc, 600 mcg. If there is less than 1.5 grams per halfteaspoon, there is likely to be a hidden or masking agent that may cause digestive or immune problems.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi.. I am doing the Cholestymine for awhile now and yes.. It is supposed to be good to eat about 30 minutes after and that is how I do it..
I am a bit confused by the later part of your post about the vitamin C. ?? Not sure if you were giving info or asking and I also did not follow the info too well. >Maybe it is just late for me. Sorry.
Debbie
PS there are other posts I put up about DR S and Dr T and the Vitamin C Flushing and the Cholestrymine (not just for mold issues like a lot pf people think).
The post is now current as I was just talking to another person about it and the VCS testing..
Take a look if you like
Whats your protocol now??
I too have avoided the Marshall Protocol and it can be confusing how one doc can and does contradict the other at times so obviously.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
To Gael and Sammy You have said a few times the Herxs can be hard and I was wondering if you could elborate such as how long after you started the protocol and what the symptoms were and how long the herxing lasted
As well was it in cycles that the herxing came. Did each time you did an increase in the amounts of the Salt and C did you again go thorugh the same Herxing?
I would like to hear more specifically your stories on the tough part of the protocol from the start to where you are now.
It would be very helpful to hear for me and others.
THANKS SO MUCH Look forward to hearing from you.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I just figured that the Perque vitamin C might be good to use since it's good for the flush, too.
There seems to be a similarity/overlap between the 2 protocols in this way.
Re: chlorestramine - FYI - my doctor said to eat something with fat in it for the bile to dump - not just anything.
PS - I may be off line for a couple of weeks (just in case I don't reply). We are relocating soon.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
PPS - I'm doing the full Cowden protocol. It's just temporary since we are going to be moving soon. I don't want to go into a big herx for the time being.
I have been herxing but not in a severe way.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
Sparkle,
About your doctor having said " a "healthy" fat like cream cheese or a hard boiled egg . . ."
Well, an egg may be healthy but still would not be the best choice if you want concentrated therapeutic oil. And cream cheese certainly is not a healthy fat.
Organic (if possible), extra virgin Olive oil or Organic, extra virgin coconut oil - and fish oil would be top the list of healthy fats. Organic nut oils, too.
-
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
Sparkle,
About your doctor having said " a "healthy" fat like cream cheese or a hard boiled egg . . ."
Well, an egg may be healthy but still would not be the best choice if you want concentrated therapeutic oil. And cream cheese certainly is not a healthy fat (although if one chooses this organic and from cattle free of rBGH is best.)
Organic (if possible), extra virgin Olive oil or Organic, extra virgin coconut oil - and fish oil would be top the list of healthy fats. Organic nut oils, too.
-
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Debaz,
What's the new thread called? I'm having trouble finding it.
Fancy
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Good Questions Debaz,
I'd like to hear from Sammy and GLM on the Herx's
thanks
Fancy
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi there The new post for us who are starting the protocol is
Topic: Vitamin C Salt Therapy Group Data - Feedback on how it is going for those trying it
Looks like some who were going to start with me this week are delaying it for various resasons like holidays or family visiting or such as you moving
But there is the thread link and maybe it iwll be easier to locate.
But sadly .. I was hoping it would be just a reporting data spot and it is becomeing more like this one with people coming in and out with comments about the protocol.
So it did not work so far as I wanted or intended but everyone has the right to jump in any time.. That is what this forum is..
But I anyway... Maybe it would be bettter just to keep it all here? Do not know..
What ever everyeone thinks is better and easier is good with me.
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Hi Debaz,
I was hoping for the same kind of thread you were.
I thought this thread could be the comment thread and the other as you said.
Shucks what can you do?
Mabe I'll state something on the other thread of what we would like it to be. Hopefully people will respect that.
Fancy
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
CHECK IN FOR DAY # :# 3 - Feeling pretty good today . Not great but not a Herx type day. . MIDDLE GROUND What I call Level 2 type of day. See below
DATE STATED SALT C : 12-2-08 KIND OF SALT : Eden Sea Salt French Celtic KIND OF C : Bluebonnet Buffered C Crystals AMOUNT STARTED : 1/4 tsp (I am 6ft tall and 215lbs)Optional HOW IT IS SPLIT UP: 1/8 tsp am +1/8 tsp pm PILLS OR LIQUID : Liquid drink combining Salt/C ABX ON or OFF : On ABX KIND DOSAGE: Ketek 400mg M W F weekly
How I rate days.. I usually use 3 words as of now to rate days and working on 4th.
1 = Herxing -In bed all day for the most part
2- Middle ground -where I am up by noon and get about 6 hours in that I am up.
3 - Good -day where I am up before noon and I have about 6-12 hours i am up and around.> low energy but up out of the bed
4 - Very Good- not only be up and about but to start getting energy to do things and to be productive.
5 - Great -feeling close to Normal again, still have many symptoms to manage and can think of working part time maybe
6. Last goal and I still hope to feel NORMAL one day.!!
Even on the first 3 levels I can not work or do much of anything strenuous. I got to a level 3 One year and was able to swim each day and take walks.
I use this with my doctor too because those hours also coincide with pain and fatigue levels and it works out for us.
He used to ask me to put down 1-5 my pain and fatigue levels and it always coincided with the above type of days. So now that is why i can lump them all into one reporting.
For me typically... While on treatment I feel worse such as level 1 or 2. I then feel better off treatment like 3 .
But when I get the flu or when I cycle after months I can go down again off treatment. But the odd thing is that the treatments is usually what creates the fear in me of feeling worse. That is what everyone says is a Herx Reaction and that it is a good sign.
Well I hate to accept that, as I HERX usually for long long periods of time so instead i have tried to find a middle grown on the treatment and meds where I do not HERX so severely I am bedridden every day.
Or I cycle things one week off and one week on or even one month on and one month off. I think my body is very appreciative of that and can try to work on being itself again.
I hope that all makes sense..
Debbie..
THANkS for listening..
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Is there any way for me to change the title of the post as the person who started it?? I do not see a place I can do that.??
As well for now I am posting on both.. But that might confuse things more.. I can delete them..
[ 04. December 2008, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Debbie,
Yes there you can since you are the original topic provider.
Go into Edit mode and you should see your topic in a small rectangle space above your post.
You can edit that just like your post.
Fancy
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Keebler - No - my doctor said it should be more of a food - not like fish oil... if that makes sense. I told him I was taking fish oil & he didn't think that was the right type of fat. Maybe it needs to be a food as opposed to a supplement? Coconut oil on bread might work.
I know "healthy" fat is a relative concept.
My doctor is a good guy but he's not perfect. I think he tends to be moderate in regards to diet & lifestyle. I don't have any health conditions that I would have a problem with eating cream cheese or eggs.
PS - editing - click the icon with the little white rectangle & the pencil. You will be able to edit your posts from there.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I think if you click on the first post in the thread, it will let you edit the title... Is this what you mean?
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Yep Got it thanks I was trying to delete my question so i would not bother anyone but your fast..
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
OK i saw your start comments. Have you posted on the other site your details and progress notes?? I will go look for it.. : )
DEBBIE
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
For any who are on or starting the protocol.. I would LOVE LOVE to see you post your data on the new post for people who want to learn from others experiences..
Can Gael and Sammy Post your information in a nutshell there at least once for us to review???
Just use the format I started and cut and past and that will keep it simple and easy to follow if you do not mind??
I do not mean to bug you>>> I appreciate all the time you already have taken.. So if not thats cool too..
Debbie. Sincerely
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Guys,
As requested, I will do my best to give you the details of what took place over the last 2 1/2 yrs since I started the salt/c.
Going back 2 yrs trying to remember sequencing of things since I started the salt/c can be a little vague.
This I do remember.I was taking strong Chinese and South American antiparasitic herbs for 6 months starting in mid 2005.
I was having severe internal vibrations, (like a riveting machine) tachycardia, bad brain fog and severe burning pain thru my body. All the other aches and pains associated with Lyme & co.
I decided to start the salt/c while on the herbs and 2 days later, all hell broke loose. Approx May 2006.
( I also do clear water enemas) I take coconut oil and lots of kefir/yogurt and probiotics. That's it.
Everything that you see on the lymephotos site came pouring out of me including very large ascaris worms 18-20" Other filarial worms(looked like colored sewing thread(eggshell blue) came out of my scalp, my mouth.
Microscopic worms came out of my eyes,and nose.(Occurring over months)Horse hair worm,(8") and filarial worms and creatures I couldn't identify as well as hundreds of eggs.
This die off has been occurring intermitently over the last 2 yrs. It is still occurring but not as massive of an exodus.
I can't really explain why these herxes are so severe other than to say everything is really intensified.
I have not missed a single dose of salt/c. I also have had a lot of emotional herxes as well. A lot of heavy crying.
This might be too much info, but this is my experience. I have seen other people post the same info that have done the salt/c.
I posted some peoples experiences a few posts back. SALTYDOG member #6253(sept 21st)........FITSTICK member # 6812.......PHIL RICH member # 6817. I have seen GiGi post similar info.
No, this is not what is referred to as Morgellons. 97% of people who think they have Morgellons have been diagnosed with Lyme.
I believe they are one and the same. Burgdorfer found adult FILARIAL WORMS in the ticks and as an aside found spirochetes. These worms are also producing bacteria.
A lot of people want to stay in denial and think they are just chasing borrellia and other bacteria.
I think that is why antibiotics are not the sole answer and why people relapse. I am still on salt/c and getting rid of stuff daily.
I am definitely seeing a light and feeling a lot better. Pain almost gone. Brain fog lifting,vibrations are still there but slight.
I have been sick for over 30 yrs, and I think the longer you are sick with this the longer it takes to get rid of.
There is no doubt I needed antibiotics in the beginning, but antibiotics can't get rid of worms and parasites.
I hope this is the info you wanted to know. Sorry Deb I couldn't quite get it into the format you suggested.
Peace & Light everyone,
Gael
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
I've been on good salts (in my food) forever, I guess. For decades, certainly. The last 3 years since I caught lyme, I went into Himalayan salt 95% (the rest were from sea, non processed).
And I like salty food and never had high blood pressure, except during the salt-C protocol.
Adding more extra salt for the salt-C protocol DID cause my blood pressure to raise 3 times, measured by a pharmacist and a doctor. And I was on 100% Himalayan salt.
When I stopped the protocol, my blood pressure went down. It happened twice, in a couple of days, my blood pressure regularized. The third time I stopped it, it took more than a week to get my blood pressure down.
High blood pressure caused me insomnia, so I got tired during whole days. By getting tired, I had less energy to perform my survival daily tasks that were already hard to perform due to lyme.
I do know my tinnitus started during salt-C, and it was one of the longest lyme symptoms to go. If it was caused by salt-C, I don't know. But CERTAINLY, my high blood pressure was caused by it.
Knowing that my heart had inflamation due to lyme, that I was having problems to breathe due to babesia, that high bllod pressure can kill, and that I was getting more and more tired due to sleepless nights, well, I thought it was more advisable to stop salt-C.
I did. And I never regretted.
In my case, herbs like Buhner's herbs, some of the Cowden herbs never caused my blood pressure to raise, they helped cleaning my body, and are much milder and I improved slowly but steadily with them. I think I never got sleeping problems once I started on herbs.
The electrolytes that one needs can be added to diet only with very minor amounts of good salt, no need to exxagerate. I still take my electrolyte 'juice', but with just a few grains of Himalayan salt a day.
I continue eating my salty food as before. Consumption of good salts much before lyme didn't prevent me to fall sick with lyme.
No, the protocol is not the answer to all. Some people that got trouble with the protocol got banned from lymestrategies forum.
I was not banned but figured in the Success Stories of the site!! Even though I said I was leaving salt-C BECAUSE I couldn't stand it.
If you have to be many years on a protocol to feel great and when one misses one day, you feel crap again, well, I would just question if one is really healing with it.
I treated with herbs and other stuff, now I'm OFF all lyme herbs and lyme symptoms don't come back because I'm a few days without herbs. Not at all. I'm even a few months without them now.
It took me less than 3 years to be free of lyme treatment.
I don't like to post about salt-C because people on salt-C are so defensive. I wonder why. They get mad when someone says s/he can't stand high salt consumption. That's my overal impression. They love to say we are lying or we did the protocol wrong.
Nope. If it works for some, great. But it certainly doesn't work for all. For the ones it didn't work, it was sometimes a dangerous protocol. This has been said over and over again here (not in lymestrategies!!)
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
I'll be a watcher on this protocol. I just will not consume 20 gr of sale per day with hypertension. I have read evidence that sea salt is supposed to be good and can lower BP to some degree. However, it didn't say 20 gr.
I wish everyone the best. For me, the risk / reward seems too high. I'm sure others feel much differently.
Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
Deb, I think there is a Yahoo Group that focuses just on this protocol. I think you would find some good information there.
For here, I think it was a passing fancy that was tried and tossed aside.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi.. Is the yahoo group Lymestragies. I have looked around there. I am playing this by year.. Taking it slow. It may be just right that 1 gram a day is a good enough addition and when i go up it may not be a good thing.. or it might be.. All ears and eyes open. I am not defensive and i am glad for all those that post thier negative experiences and actually I learn the most from them as I go forward and it makes me be careful. I may get my own blood pressure cuff to watch myself. I do not have High blood pressure but it is not low either. usually pretty normal. So that is how it is going to go for me.. I read that you start on like 1 gram a day and 18 should be the highest but that 3 grams a day even is a good in between number to shoot for for theraputic levels. I think I have seen some that keep going and pushing and if their bodies are responding well.. they thats good for them and if you are more sensitive you may need to stay at a lower number.. And overall the whole concept of errdicating bugs and parasites by making the environment for them non livable make sense for me.. i also have had acute and rpeated intestinal infectxions that end me up in the hospital and I am hoping this may help make sure they do not keep reocccuring. I guess we all have our reasons. Thanks for the ideas and comments.. ALL THE HEALTH and WELLNESS to everyone.. Bless You all Deb
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Brussels,
Thanks for your feedback. I am glad you are feeling better. Some people are salt sensitive, so it would make sense for them not to do the protocol.
This is just an objective view, but I think the tinnitus and insomnia sound like a herx.
Regardless, if you were uncomfortable with your pressure elevating on the salt c it is totally understandable that you backed off of the protocol.
The other thing I would like to address is this. If someone presents an adverse reaction to something and it comes directly from that person in a constructive way, it is not objectionable.
But when people attack a protocol using fear tactics with anecdotal information that is not credible that's just not acceptable to a lot of people.
I did a search on here and found that Scott F said his B/P elevated while on the salt/c. The other reports were anecdotal and fear based.
No one said this was the only defense against this disease, but it could be a great defense. People should be able to research and make up their own minds.
We really don't have that many options. A lot of people including myself have done herbs, antibiotics and other modalities to get rid of this and are still struggling.
If salt/c works for hundreds of people and they can tolerate it, then it is a great option.
Take Care,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I agree...we do what works for ourself and we choose what we want to try and do ... as well as choose what we want to think and read and write.. its all so great the freedom we have in the USA! D
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
I agree too! Thanks Brussels I found your experience informative.
Some precautions
If one starts gaining a pound a day they should quit.
Check blood pressure often.
If ankles start to swell quit the protocol.
Friendly advise from my Father the Pharmacist.
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Gael, I don't know for you guys, but high blood pressure killed almost all of my family members, even though a few died of cancer instead.
If salt raises blood pressure for some, it is dangerous, and there's no policy of fear in it. It is fact.
Heart disease was the first cause of death worldwide until recently. I think only recently, cancer is taking the front line. It is not policy of fear, I've seen it in my family.
I'm not against salt consumption, not at all, I love salt. But it's the excess of salt that my body cannot take.
Both my parents are salt sensitve, and so two of my brothers (only one is not, like me). They all get a rise in blood pressure and eat most foods almost without salt I mean.
Not everyone gets any symptom with high blood pressure, so it may go unnoticed. Not all have insomnia, not all have jitterness, rage. Only measuring it can say.
In my case, having seen what hypertension can do (it crippled my grandparents before killing them), well, I preferred not to risk lyme for hypertension, if you see what I mean.
I'm not making a policy of fear, I'm just saying what I thought when I decided to quit the protocol.
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
A brief reappearance here writing on my iPhone.
Gael: stop accusing others of essentially lying (fear tactics with false anecdotes).
Go to the following two yahoo groups and register and do a search for posts on salt/c. Go to 'CFS-Experimental and to the Lyme and rife group.
Just from memory of who I emailed with after my disastrous experience:
Sara Robinson of Vancouver had ankle edema and was bexridden for three months after low doses.
Sue T who does the amy Yasko program had severe side effects and if memory serves, cortisol finally corrected it.
Kurt Rowley posted on his blog and on lymestrategies until he was banned. He had severe kidney pain and cardiac arrhythmias among other symptoms.
Hiker 53 here on lymenet had bad side effects but was banned from LS for discussing it.
Claudia was the women who got up to four grams then had a cardiac episode and cardiac problems thenceforth that had not cleared up 18 months later.
Selma(Brussels) simply had high bp and stopped (wisely).
The topic is banned from CanLyme because they feel the protocol is so dangerous.
I'm sure there are many more stories out there. On LS they tell people they're having kidney or heart herxes. Very dangerous and bad advice.
To deb, at one gram a day you're not killing Lyme anyway. As for worms it makes sense saltwater could kill gut worms. If that's the way you want to do it. Do I believe one single person had blue worms come out of her scalp and twenty inch worms inthe toilet and 'microscopic eggs' from the eyes ( how do you see them anyway if they're microscopic????). Hard to believe. Why start a group here when LS exists already? Whatever. dude,as they say.
[ 06. December 2008, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: oxygenbabe ]
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Oxygen,
quote:
Why start a group here when LS exists already?
quote:
Why not?
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Brussels,
I appreciate your feedback. I also found it informative. Was not at all referring to you as giving a fear based report.
Did the doctors ever find out what the cause of hypertension in your family was from?
Hope you are doing well,
Gael
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
People have died from salt poisoning. That is a verifiable fact.
Information is not fear-based. It is simply information. Knowledge can replace fear - knowledge about how something works in the body - how all the systems work in the body to do what is asked of it. And, when it has gone wrong for others, what were the mitigating circumstances so that a better outcome is possible.
Knowing about kidney damage - or how to prevent a heart attack - can help people learn so as to prevent that.
All I'm saying is that more education in the physiological processes is vital before people increase salt - regardless of how pure that salt may be.
As this thread may be one someone finds in a year or two, they may not have read about the cautions about salt poisoning at another thread.
This is not just for the small group doing this here and now - it will be a package for someone researching this in the future.
Having cautions as part of the education is not meant to induce fear but, rather, a healthy approach to researching a method that does have some risk.
Knowledge is power.
-
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Keebler,
I think you misunderstand. By fear based I was not referring to concrete inormation.
I have done research also and the only information I have seen on salt poisoning was when it was purposely induced and caused severe hydration in young children.
Stating the information as verifiable does not make it so. I have nothing against antibiotics when appropriate or other allopathic medicine.
But why aren't you posting about all the "dire" side effects we hear and read about? It's just out of balance.
We are all intelligent and educated people here and have done our research.
I am going to move on with getting well.
How about you?
Gael
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Perhaps you only used the words "salt poisoning."
If you want to educate yourself generally about the risks of excess salt, go to pubmed and put in the word "hypernatremia." Because that's the word doctors and scientists use for salt poisoning, essentially.
If you don't know how to get to pubmed then just go to google and type in "pubmed" and you'll get there. Pubmed gives you abstracts of peer reviewed scientific articles, i.e. LEGITIMATE research.
You will find about 2500 published peer reviewed articles there. You will have to go through a lot of them to find ones specifically about excess sodium because many are about underlying conditions that lead to hypernatremia. You certainly will see the word kidney mentioned a lot, in any case. And frankly it might do you some good to browse through the articles and understand that there are many underlying disorders that can lead to hypernatremia, and that one who is chronically ill might think twice, three times, four times, many times, about adding salt to their diet if they are not sure how perfectly their kidneys, liver and heart are functioning.
I see from a brief search that PMID: 18570837 is about severe hypernatremia from excess salt but the article is in Spanish. It references several earlier articles, you'll see at the side there, from 1990, 1992, and 2000 about salt poisoning.
I suspect you don't know the first thing about doing research, and I suspect you are seeing mucus in the toilet. Do you actually *know* what a bacterial biofilm is?
Maybe Keebler felt a responsibility to others, and the fact that she is not "moving on" instantly is because she cares about the naive or uninformed who might accidentally harm or poison themselves based on posts of those like you.
Sorry to be so blunt but really, its outrageous. Unless, of course, you are a troll, which is a possibility.
Posted by ccb (Member # 18078) on :
Hello,
I am starting the salt and vit c tomorrow. I will start at 1/4 teasp of each once a day. I took 1/4 teasp of each separately today.
Seeing a LLMD at the end of this month.
Thanks for the info.
Besides the new salt/vit c protocol, the only way out of this for me is to focus on what is good or right in my body.
For instance, my elbows frequently are feeling good. And when I feel all the other symptoms, I just focus on my elbows and am thankful that they are ok right now. This referral back to my elbows is constant. I believe that one day, the good feeling, no matter how small, will one day override the negative.
Blessings to all in this journey,
Christine
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Ccb .. That is great.. i do a lot of positive visualiation myself I float on my pool.. and all the pain feels so much better.> I keep that in my mind and when I get out I keep that memory ongoing through the day and its amazing how our mind and body are connected and i think that we have to stay focused on health and the good things we feell YES> Great Let me know how you do on the salt and c .... Deb..
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thanks everyone for all the information and knowledge. I read it all. Please can we just post things and keep it simple and not personal.?
This is not productive and creates a negative environment when we are all trying to heal.
I WANT To hear all the stories.. negative and positive.. and i want you to post all the sites and the information you find and then i can then read and use the information for myself.
But the way that people are presenting the information and calling people names is not healthy. .
This is supposed to be a place for helping each other by sharing information.
So put your stuff on the threads you want to share and then leave it at that.. Is that ok with everyone.
Please do not take things personally or keep fighting.
Simply state if you disagree with someone that you disagree and why.. Please.. I would very much appreciate it.
Always Deb. On a healing path. just like the rest of here. We should be working together.. Think about it..
Another try to make people think before writing certain things.
IN LOVE and in Peace. Lets all HUG one another.. And pray for our health and everyone elses. ... NO matter what the path is they choose...
I respect you all. Take care Debbie
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Well put Deb. Thankx for your wisdom and support.
Lets all move forward into healing.
Fancy:
I loved what your father the pharmacist said. Very wise and so obvious
Thankx,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hello.. I am always reading and researching..
Here I found someone who has really done his research and has given warnings to the affect that there are different types of people and some protocols may not work for everyone based on who you are and your body..
Yes, but Deb, you should know that he tried it for two years and he was the one who encouraged me strongly to try it and who believed it was working for him----in spite of the fact that at the same time he was applying for SSDI and would soon have to sell his house and move with his family to live with relatives, and in spite of the fact that he was basically housebound. Sometimes with CFIDS/lyme you have little ups and downs and in the ups you desperately want to believe you are getting well.
And he encouraged me and kept on it himself in spite of, as he finally admitted very reluctantly after a month of emails back and forth in which he just did NOT want to believe that salt could be so harmful---he admitted that at times his arrhythmias and heart pain had been so bad he asked his wife to just place her hand on his heart so he could get through the night because he was not sure he would make it, and at times his kidneys hurt as bad as a kidney stone and he'd be in bed, and at times he had foamy urine, he developed varicose veins, he had dry mouth, and he developed new wrist pain.
Yet he was almost half hypnotized, in my estimation, by LymeStrategies and their belief that this was a miracle cure and that side effects were a herx.
He finally saw the light of day, but unfortunately because he'd so mis-led himself and perhaps been so mis-led, he had encouraged me and without any real warnings. I still bear responsibility for trying it for four days and I did 10-12 grams because I wanted to clear up some sinus issues. When it started affecting my kidneys so badly and I was woozy and weak and had kidney aches I stopped. But I guess I had done some permanent damage that is with me to this day two years later. In addition for months I was extremely weak like someone had taken all the air out of me, *and*, I had incredible cravings those first few weeks for milk and avocados (potassium and calcium--which I'm sure my kidneys had leached out of wherever necessary to try and maintain blood osmolarity as best they could with the onslaught of sodium).
I'm not sure that the ascorbic acid adds to the kidney problem--its very acidic and sometimes I have wondered, as a nurse friend of mine in my building who is quite brilliant said simply, Whoever thought up that protocol was trying to kill people.
Kurt came to his senses but he had spent two years and a lot of $ (not working, borrowing against his home) hoping that salt/c was his answer and it was very hard for him to give up the cherished hope. And in fact, months later after he'd moved, I was stunned to get an email from him saying that he was back on a low dose of 2 grams a day and was having kidney pain but he believed the kidney pain was a virus. He had always started having kidney pain from salt/c at low doses. Here he was back on it--because it is well known in the CFIDS community that about 1 gram a day can help boost adrenal function esp. with those who have POTS, and in fact even James Wilson an adrenal expert mentions this. One gram is not for killing anything, though. So maybe Kurt was having that effect from a low dose. But at 2 grams he was having symptoms. And he was denying it to himself once again and saying he had a virus that was bothering his kidneys!!?? It is my belief that he was emotionally very attached to the idea of salt/c, and loathe to let it go, because he had nothing at the time to replace it with, and being sick with no hope is pretty unbearable. Even so, damaging your kidneys is a worse situation.
So Kurt was honorable enough to thoroughly research all the dangers with the protocol and post them because Marc would not. We gave him the names and emails of people who had suffered on it and practically begged Marc to put the risks into his ebook. Then people could make their own decision, but at least the risks would be stated. Don't drugs all state their side effects and risks? Normally they do. So Marc never did that. I don't know where he disappeared to as he's gone from the list.
Now I don't know, maybe the protocol has been well tolerated by some and they got better. If so I believe it is because it cleansed the digestive tract where they may have had anaerobes, dysbiosis, maybe some worms etc. That's it. And Ayurveda has a kind of salt cleanse like that, where you drink the salt in a gallon, entire gallon I believe, of water in the morning for a week or two.
The "science" suggesting it can shift your entire blood to more salty and penetrate all your tissues including the brain and cure all the tickborne diseases by essentially "soaking" you in salt is ludicrous. IE no science.
I'm glad you found his blog and posted it. I am all for alternatives as long as they don't harm. IMO if they are harmless but, say, the person believes in them therefore gets the powerful benefit of the placebo effect, then they are still effective. I think IRT is bunk but I think it may have helped people simply by the power of belief. If people want to spend their $ I have no beef as long as they aren't harmed. I am not so sure about rife, as I am not sure what it would do to normal cells, that is the problem. I do believe we COULD develop effective electromagnetic technology if we examined the exact frequency that killed a bug and gave targetted sessions. We are far from that. Doug did rife once every month or so if I recall. I'm not so sure about folks bombarding themselves with fields every day, especially based on anecdotal evidence etc. Even so it doesn't seem anybody has died from or been seriously harmed from rife. And things like Bionic 880 nobody has been hurt and it might even have a real effect, who knows.
My point being, the problem with salt/c is that people deem it almost a miracle cure, that they self-treat with no guidance from doctors, and that some people have been irreparably harmed, apparently one died, and others just had adverse effects, stopped it, and recovered. That needs to be clear to anybody who bothers to "try" it.
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
i hear what you are saying. it might be worthwhile to purchase the ebook and read the Townsend Article. it really makes sense. i have a doctorate in biology and "osmotic shock" to kill variant organisms is a valid theory.
i know the salt c protocol scares some people but, for some people it has saved their life {muself included}. Let's just agreee that people get well different ways and leave it at that.
salt c has changed my life. i am sooo much better than i was this time last year. i herx and then feel a new area of improvement when it is over. unfortuntatly, i relapsed hard when i was on abx and decided abx wasn't the answer for me. i imagine for some people abx can take them all the way.
you need to do research, ask people that have gotten well how they did it.
i have talked to many people with chronic lyme and more often than not the ones that are well today have chosen alternative treatments, rife, salt c, whatever.
in my experience, abx often lead to a relapse. this is just my personal experience and i hope it is not your case. do i wish abx were the answer for me? yes. but after taking 3 different abx simultaneouly for 11 months and relapsing HARD after coming off...i had to find an altenative..and THANK GOD salt c entered my life.
i have made more progress on salt c then the entire time i was on abx. i have only been on salt c for a short 7 months. i will stick with this protocol for life and am so appreciative of marc and the folks at lymephotos.
anyhow, i wish everyone continued healing however you decide to do it.
sammy1
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for Kurts website info Deb. On the right side of his site he talks about all of the benefits of salt/c.
I have read the pros and cons and both seem to have validity.
According to e-medicine, HYPERNATREMIA (elevated sodium levels in the blood)has some very good info as to the causes.
First::: dehydration from not drinking enough water.
Second:::Drugs, such as steroids, licorice and certain blood pressure lowering medications:::
Third is Certain endocrine disease such as diabetes(from frequent urination):::
Fourth::::hyperventilation.
They state in general hypernatremia can be caused by derangement of the thirst response, usually seen in the elderly and the very young due to excess water loss.
People that are salt sensitive who develope high blood pressure when they take in extra salt have kidneys that permit protein, called albumin to pass thru them.
There is new research indicating that high blood pressure is caused by inflammation. Infection can be the underlying cause.
I would think that people who have prexisting conditions and who are on certain medications would be wise enough to check with their doctors before starting any protocol.
Like Sammy,this protocol has saved my life .After 4yrs of oral antibiotics and 6 mos IV rocephin. I too kept relapsing.
Everyone should arm themselves, do the research and make their own informative decisions.
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Well i am glad I posted that too. i think it was well written and describes the pros and cons and who might not do well and that there are some who don't > I appreciated his honesty and he wrote the article well.
And I agree that everyone will find a different path. My doctor admited that most all his patients relapse after abx treatment so eh considers and tell me that if I find the right dose or type that I might stay on it for most of my life..
He admits that they have not found one that will erradicate,. but he is working hard on that.
I am glad I have him.. But as well sometimes he is so into the research he does not like his patients to think outside the box too much because he likes to know how his treatments are affecting him for his research.
But here not there.. He has not told me not to do what I choose or think is best for me.
I am hoping this well be part of the puzzle for me and I hope I can say what Sammy and Gael are saying instead of the other stories. But time will tell.
As well I am not attached to some dream or hope for some miracle cure and take everything with caution and with my eyes wide open. If I have to stop. I will stop.. And move on to something else.
But a herx or intensity in symptoms will not scare me away.>And I know the difference. it looks as if some might not. I know the difference and have lots of herxing for years.
Well anyway. i will keep you up to date and either way this may help someone else decide when they go looking or enter this path.
Take care everyone And Thanks to all.
I hope that article brought us a bit closer together and that we all recognize there are risks and there are stories of people who really did not do well and feel this protocol harmed them and there are some that did well and .. the information given can not be black and white for everyone.
But this thread has proven to show many sides that will help educate and stimulate the thinking minds of all who end up reading it all...
GOD BLESS TO ALL> DEB
THANKS FOR all the inputs... and outputs.
So much appreciated. I can not imagine have learned near as much without ALL of you and that includes all that do not agree.
THANK YOU For that!!
[ 09. December 2008, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Oxy, I didn't know the whole story, thanks for telling it.
Deb, no one is salt /C group does only salt/C, but salt/C is only one tiny part of what all of them take. That's what I saw while I was there.
Problems with babesia resistance is also there, people trying a whole bunch of products and herbs to 'help' salt/C work.
I know one nice lady who believed so much in salt/C for years and is still fighting babesia today. And of course, still fighting lyme, bartonella, etc. She still though feels it helps her.
Infection can cause high blood pressure, so does high salt consumption. In my case, after stopping salt/C, I never got high blood pressure back, even though I was still sick with lyme and dozens of infections and parasites after the next months and years I stopped salt/c.
So no, Gael, don't try to say salt is harmless to all. And that all who died of heart related diseases so far had hypertension just because of infection. Sorry, I'm not convinced.
What I don't appreciate in the salt/C 'fanatism' is that in ALL protocols, people talk about the inconvenients or problems that may arise for each individual case.
The only ones who seem to see no problem AT ALL are the salt/C 'fanatics' (and the Marshall people, it seems).
Another thing they still don't seem to admit is that what they call herx could be salt poisoning symptoms (kidney pain, for example).
My critics are not to salt, nor salt/C, but to fanaticism.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thats a good point and I agree we should not put all our eggs in one basic or "believe" in on thing so much we do not see the full picture.. I surely agree there.
Hey from what you wrote you had in parenthesis (Marshall Protocol People)>> Did you mean that they are fanatics with Salt too or that they are fanatics within themselves.
I have read about that protocol and because it contradicts some of my doctors therapies or views I have not taken much from it at all.
Anyway.. Thanks for taking time to add to the thread and well I hope you see Gael and Sammy are not trying to be those Fantics you are talking about. I do not see them that way.
But at times it is hard for people to put up there view when the back and forth stuff becomes something that looks as if it is defending or answering back and forth.. Then the read of the thread can be misunderstood by some..
Thats how I feel. and again so glad we have everyone here.
God Bless
PS Good point on the herx thing and you do have to know the difference. It is very important..
Take care... all of you. See ya soon I am sure.
Deb
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Brussels,
I NEVER said salt was harmless to all. I NEVER said all people who have heart attacks have an infection.
I also talked about people that are salt sensitive and some of the causes of hypernatremia.
Please don't twist the information around to suit yourself.
Why are you on this thread trying to cause discord? Everyone on here can read and make intelligent decisions on their own.
Why don't you focus on the modalities that are helping you heal and move on. I think everyone would appreciate that.
Peace & Light,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hello everyone
I wanted to post some of the other things on the same site as the other blog.. If you look to the right of the blog there are about 7 more very interesting and informative articles ... some from those who are on the protocol.... some comparing the many protocols that call for salt and c.. and some other scientific ones that help tell you why this works.
Here is that last one. its is something you have to read... all
I really found this interesting and.. my insomnia has been so bad.
I will say on Friday I actually found myself sleepy and I was laughing and thinking to myself I can not remember the last time my eyes started closing and I felt "sleepy" like i wanted to seelp.
That is after 5 days or so on the salt.. Maybe related??
There is new research indicating that high blood pressure is caused by inflammation. Infection can be the underlying cause.
Who wrote that then, Gael?
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Insomnia can be caused by HBP.
In anyways, no matter what causes it, insomnia means less energy to fight infections. All lyme doctors know a patient can only heal if s/he sleeps well.
I'm not going to write here anymore, not to disturb the thread then. I'm not that type of person.
I just have problems with blind fanaticism. Any type of.
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Selma, what you contributed was very valuable. Gale is suggesting that you should *not* contribute and she is wrong. People cannot make "intelligent" decisions without all the information. I completely agree with you, there are two groups in which the "cure" is put forth as a panacea and oddly enough they both affect the kidneys badly (Marshall Protocol and salt/c) but for different reasons. (Benicar in the case of MP). In any case, in both protocols no matter what the symptom it is called a herx (or "immunopathology" to sound even more impressive in MP).
Nobody can make informed decisions without all the information.
That's what happened to me. Kurt did not tell me a word about his bad side effects, not at all, until I had bad side effects and pestered him about it by email. And finally he began to admit all his side effects and finally he realized they were not herxes etc.
It is very important to include risks, cautions and side effects/negative/harmful experiences with a protocol that is outside standard of care medicine. Usually when folks do that, those who are for the protocol or feeling helped by the protocol, attack the others, call them negative, tell them to stop posting etc.
I don't see what's wrong with posting all experiences.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I got to be honest here and am confused as to how some have presented themselves.. Since i have started this post it feels as if those who disagree or feel that people who try this protocol are making a huge mistake and should listen to them .... are the people who I feel present their side in a way that presents openings for ongoing "arguing" instead of contructive dialoge and presentations of pros and cons and documentation and historys and personal experiences etc. I think that for some reason there is a real passion in a negative way to those who continue to enter or try a protocol when someone has not done well or strongly advocates against it.
I appreciate both sides so much.. But i do not appreciate always how it has been presented..
I have seen how Gael has been put into positions of having to defend herself and even being demeaning to her...
Its not cool at all or nice..
We should show respect no matter what we write or say and be mature enough to just say we disagree..
I would not ask or want anyone to go away.. But could you keep presenting material without it becoming personal.
I keep repeating myself here. and I will not probably do it again. It just seems that there has to always be some sort of dig thrown in against someone directly... Its not nesessary.. and it can build if everyone just does not stop together.
Lets all agree to wanting to put forth all information.. and for the good of everyone.. And respect eachother for all the time and work it takes to share and present and we all know this will help anyone how is making protocol decisions.
I wish this thread was here even a month ago. It would have saved me a lo of time and reasearch and emails etc.
Even my journey.. no matter howlong it lasts or how it turns out I hope will help others too..
lets all work together..
Think about it.. we all want the same thing.
The choices people make are not what should determine how they are treated hear.
I think we all agree that any one thing done in excess or any one person who wants to choose one thing as the do all end all and is trying to convince others that they have the miracle cure and that energy trys tosway them to stop their open minds and to stop trying other things.. Is not good.
We all agree much more than we have any overlap of disagreement...
I am not sure what protocols some of the people here who do not agree or have had good results with this protocol are on.
I actually would love to hear what is working for you and what your taking ...
Would you please share that with us.. It could help us learn a contrast as to if this did not work and had bad affects..
What is working and helping you???
Let us know Ok??
THANKS for listening
LOVE and Peace to all!! Health and Happiness... too
Smile.. and lets all relax and enjoy one another. Life is too short people.. Life for people like us even feels shorter.
I try to see people so differently since being sick
Everyone has something to offer one another.. EVERYONE>
Deb
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
If you're asking Selma/Brussels she has many posts on here about her entire journey and what helps her.
Me too, but a quick overview: 1) I have a home hyperbaric oxygen chamber 2) I get weekly Meyer's cocktail pushes and IV glutathione. I get them in sterile water (because of salt intolerance since salt/c) 3) I get IVIG in small doses every 2-3 weeks (used to be every week before salt/c disaster) 4) I take echinacea purpurea root and cranberry capsules from Eclectic Institute daily.I take one capsule of VSL#3 daily. I take comitras and Immunity from Atrium-Biotech now owned by Douglas Labs. They are frozen peptides. 5) I was experimenting with transfer factor for strep and e. coli and in some ways felt much better but my bladder began to burn as a result so I stopped and am trying to figure out what to do about that 6) I have taken some homeopathic remedies and am going to create my own home medicine cabinet of remedies. That's a long story.
I got a bobber made for me (biotensor in fancy lingo) and if anybody is interested in having one made for them, PM me and I'll give you the email addy of the fellow who made it. I love the bobber and it was cheaper than the others people are purchasing.
I should add that I can't just take platitudes and homilies like "smile and relax" and "let's all get well now" type stuff when I see people posting about a protocol that has harmed a significant # of people. I have to get that information out to people, and then they can make an informed decision. I would rather hurt a few people's feelings (for mysterious reasons, people get very upset if the protocol that they believe is helping them, is in any way suggested to be less than perfect) and see someone save their kidneys or heart. I think I am correct in that view.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thanks for the information about your protocol.. Its interesting things and combinations...
How do you feel it has been working and what is working best of your list??
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Well I would be bedridden on disability or dead without it. I slowly added in each thing and was improving until salt/c which caused me long lasting problems and at least six months of severe weakness and long lasting multiple chemical sensitivities.
Each thing I do helps. Each has good scientific reasoning behind it except homepathy I suppose.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
GGgggRRRRRRRRRrrrrr Posted by DoctorLuddite (Member # 13853) on :
One persons meade is another's poison; where there have been people who have responded poorly to salt/c, or to MP, or any of the many protocols shared on this site, there have also been success stories.
I imagine whatever protocol that is implemented will help if it replaces some vital nutrient that is missing or enhances some component of normal function, and it will do harm if it causes the buildup of something that is not too low to begin with, or interupts some normal function.
The only way to know is to try, the problem is that an untoward reaction may be classified as a herx when it is a sign that the protocol is wrong for someone, and they will continue with the plan until they have passed a point of no return.
Caveat Emptor.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I think moderation is a good idea.
It's good to switch treatments just as a general rule with Lyme. The bacteria changes forms. You can build up a resistance & the bacteria can go into cyst or L or other forms but it may not mean you are free of Bb.
Some people have been having success with MMS (Miracle Mineral Supplement). Some people may want to look into that as an alternate to the salt/C protocol...?
Just a suggestion - I haven't tried either protocol.
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Doc Luddite, you generalize too much. Take IV bismacine, it killed someone. Would we say "The only way to know is to try"? It also cured someone I know.
So. Some protocols are much riskier than others.
It is well known and there is abundant scientific information and data that a high salt diet is definitively linked to higher mortality and morbidity from cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure etc.
It is well known that the SAD has too much salt added into various foods commonly eaten.
These people may be adding in another 15-20 grams of salt daily along with their SAD. For years at a time. This seems generally risky except in a minority of cases. In addition, as Brussels/Selma pointed out, most of them are on lots of other stuff as well so it's quite hard to even tell what is helping them or hurting them.
Caveat emptor about protocols which are so far from standard of care, and in which people have gotten very very ill. Mostly in the lyme world those are salt/c and Marshall Protocol. Under the care of a doctor, which MP must be, maybe the MP is worth trying for some folks as long as they understand the possible negatives, as some folks have improved greatly on MP. But a lot of folks didn't and others got horribly ill and almost went into kidney failure.
Same with salt/c--we hear reports that one person may have died from it, and I posted many severe reactions people had.
This is one protocol that deserves a lot of warnings and cautions, especially since almost no doctor would or should approve it.
And also the amount people take is so staggeringly variable who even knows what it means. One is taking 1 gram a day, another 20. Its completely confusing.
So I don't think it's as simple as what's harmful to one may help another. Within that statement is a bellcurve of realities.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi Oxygen.. I would like to see the reports and data on the Salt you have that proves the dangers...
Besides the ones that are about mothers forcing kids to take salt down and with intent to kill or harm.....
I would like to read about this proof of dangers and how much salt it took to make that harm happen...
Could you please forward that to me or post them here.>
THANKS
To help you on the confusion.. People work up to the dosage recommended which is determined by weight but for the average person is a max of about 18 grams.
So many start at less than a gram and slowly increase as tolerated to the dose that either works for them or until they get to the max recommended.
Hope that helps you understand why people post different amounts.
For me there seems to be a lot of personal comments about what the harm can be or people who did not tolerate it do post what it did to them and I can understand it did not work for those who are salt sensitive or have issues with processing or having the salt in their bodies..
But that is not all people who have those sorts of bodies...
And Just like it was said above everyone is different and different things work for different people.
WHen I have found any data saying one thing about how salt can be harmful or a precaution is there.. I take that as a warning but not a For sure thing.. Just like the protocols your on.
And then I watch for them.
BUt I have not found solid evidence that is not refuted or given some other explanation or even shown to be not true in another type of study .... that shows me..
A = B.
Such as .. if you consume more than ___ G of salt a day it will result in kidney failure within ____ time frame..
There has to be something solid to back up what your saying.. And if there is I will surely listen.
D
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
It's hard to know which treatment will be beneficial --- even with antibiotics taken under a doctor's care people have lost their gallbladders & had permanent tendon damage etc. and there are message boards on these subjects warning people not to take these antibiotics.
However, many people have also had good results with these antibiotics so these ones say try it, it worked for me.
The problem to me seems to be how do you know if a protocol is safe for a particular individual. So far the only thing I've seen that may give you an inkling is to learn muscle testing or go to someone who is proficient in it.
It may not be completely accurate but at least it will give you some idea if you can tolerate what you want to take. Otherwise it's just a shot in the dark.
JMHO
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
But I mean evidence.
Not that Joe had kidney failure after this protocol.
That would give me something to think about and I have heard negative reactions and positive ones and I can and do hear both sides.
But as well.. there are people who react to certain things differently as a variable.
SO if there are studies though that show or state something solid.. Such as
Example. 90 out of 100 people had kidney damage after taking the salt c protocol when using the range of 10 - 20 G per day. And 50 percent of those who were taking 1 - 10 G per day.
Or just a study of how many had kidney damage after taking a certain amount of salt into their systems.
I am looking for data to back up your claims of the huge dangers you keep saying.
As I said I can and have researched even some of your protocol items and some have some precautions and side affects I would watch out for it I started to take.. And I might consider a couple of the ones your taking.. Maybe..
And that is what I do. I read up and then educate and choose or not choose and then use the information to help ensure I am looking for the right side affects that might point to me saying I am either taking too much or it is interacting or causing problems that I need to pay attention to.
I may have to stop the item I am taking if it becomes an issue for me that makes me have additional issues to be concerned with and of course report this to my doctor.
Thats just how i think we have to approach things and we can not avoid things totally on just what others are sayng unless we feel it is enough of the population to make us choose the option of saying. na.. sounds too risky
ITs our choice.. Just like many may not choose all of what your doing or taking or what others are doing or taking.
I appreciate you feel passionate that this protocol is a danger since you had bad things happen to you.
I have heard bad things have happened to the people on the Marshall PRotocol too yet many people do it and have great success.
So the person or people who did not have success or even had problems. Should not expect to do more than alert others of their own experience and then after that.. It is up to the person...what they do.
This thread seems to feel as if the tone is .. If we do not listen to those who have had bad experiences on this protocol then we are not intelligent people and as well we are asking for ourselves to be hurt .
And the feeling that.. Your right and the rest of us are wrong and we will pay in the end if we Just would listen to you.. You would be happy.
I mean I have heard all your stories and others negative reactions and stories too.
I still choose to try this therapy at my own pace and in my way and taking some of the informaton and apply it to my personal past experiences. what I know about my body.. etc..
Thats my right and i do not feel like energy taken to defend or to feel as if I and others are being put down for our choices.
If you have more information and or new information that is helpful that is great.
If it changes someones mind.. It might.. If not.> It wont.. That is up to the person.
Keep posting the information. But not be upset at those who do not respond how you would like or think they should.
AN EXAMPLE OF VARIOUS OPINIONS>> EVEN ON A MAINSTREAM THERAPY >>
Some people will do chemo and some will not. Some think it is poison and the thing that kills them before the cancer and some swear by it and say it is what saved their lives.
My Mother refused it and it has seemingly been the right thing to do.. Her friend did not refuse it and she died within the week of starting it and the chemo completely changed her body and her ability to live right before my mothers eyes.
She witnessed it.. And it was told to her even by the doctors that she did not handle the chemo well and it was that chemo that knocked her down and she ultimately died from. But that patient choose that therapy hoping it would cure them and they did not want to risk the cancer spreading more or faster and it was a personal choice.
Ok.> I am tired of this now..
I am going to go drink my Salt C Now.... It feels good so far overall and if it helps me.. Be happy for me.
If it feels like it is hurting me .. and I know what to look out for.. I will get the help I need and stop the therapy and figure out what choice I need to make next.
Take care
D
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Deb, sorry but I'm way too busy to do the simple research you could do about high salt diets 9over 2300 milligrams a day) associated very strongly with high blood pressure and cardiovascular disease. Do a google search.
As to the specifics I told you which groups to join and gave you the names of the people so join those groups, search for their names, or the topic salt/c and email those people. Please do the additional research yourself, IF YOU WANT TO.
I'm not confused by people taking different amounts, I'm saying you have no idea what the protocol is if the amount varies twenty fold and if everybody is on multiple stuff. You apparently are pulsing antibiotics and antimalarials. Who knows what is helping you.
The one thing James Wilson ND has shown is that a small amount of daily salt can help adrenals. He is very reputable as a source. Go look at his work.
Okay done with this issue for now.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Even in Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy
There is concern for Oxygen Toxicity and other Potential Complications
But.. I am sure it depends on how you do the therapy and if you take into consideration those items.
Just like any other therapy Including this one and many and probably near all others.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
OxygenBabe..
I do know what is working for me and what is not.
I have been careful to add one new thing at a time after periods of time and...
Well I could say the same thing to you but I do not because I know how it goes and we all know our own bodies best
And .. well.. I have read the sites and I have read what you posted and I have googled like crazy.
I do not see the evidence you suggest.
ANd since you can not present it I tend to not believe it until I see it. And the ones that are posted are some other sort of thing going on that someone is trying to relate to salt consumption an its safety.
Like I said. i have not seen solid evidence yet that scares me to the point that you describe.
If you already have that proof then you do not have to research it and you should be able to point me there..
But well. its what I thought.
And this is really getting ridiculous.
We got your point. And we are capable adults of making choices and if there is some risk.. it is up to us to choose to take it or not.
I have no idea why you have to keep repeating the same thing. We all ready read it and now over and over.
Now what?? What would you like us to do?? This seems like it is about doing something that makes you feel satisfied.
This seems personal to you and if people do not take your warnings and stop or never start this protocol.. it seems to be personal...
And that in itself makes me take it personal because it is only up to me if I try something or not.
We could overdose on our water too and yet we are not here all talking about it and arguing over how much water you better drink.
This is really getting stupid.. This is nothing like what I enjoy. and now after much patience I am feeling as if I am lowering my level.
I will not respond to the same old stuff..
I took all the info from you and all others and all I could find to read and site and more... and I choose to give this a try.
Others many have read all this and choose not to.
So the thread is has presented the sides.
But just as much as you say how others get so upset about things when you say they may not work.. Take a look backwards because it seems as if your fueling the fire of being defensive and upset when others say it works or they are trying it ...
that is not helping anyone.
your claims of others doing exactly what your doing is not right and I think your not seeing this thread clearly.
You really have been the only one to go in the direction you claim others are..
Maybe now I have some.. and again I have lowered myself but..
Not anymore..
maybe being on that level you will hear more of what I have been saying all along..
The personal aspect of the thread really is not productive for anyone.. and I personally do not appreciate it.
Only you can stop it..
Try to stop posting for a week.. and take a look at the thread. You will see it going away.. from this angle..
I have told you how many times I appreciate your responses and your contributions etc..
But as well how the other side is not helping. And even when I say .. be well and lets work together That is enough for you to put down as well.
Will it ever end.??
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hey ALl > >Here is another thread someone told me about that you might learn from as people are either talking about this protocol or trying it or have been on it .. or on it and off it or whatever.
It's not personal. You made posts with silly angry faces as a response to my post last night. I told the absolute truth in that post--that without my protocols I'd be bedridden or dead, and that they all helped, and that honestly salt/c was the only one that harmed me and I'm still suffering the consequences two years later. You don't want the truth?
I also posted that all my protocols have some scientific/reasonable basis (for instance, go on pubmed and you'll find out that both lyme and babesia oxidize glutathione, so supplementing with glutathione as I do makes sense etc) except perhaps homeopathy and I am engaging in that but that's a long story as I said.
I don't mind if you do the protocol. You say you are under the care of two LLMD's so hopefully you have informed both of them you are doing the protocol and they are monitoring your kidney and cardiac function. RIGHT???
I can't help you if you can't go on those sites to email those people directly. I posted their monikers or names. You found Kurt's site. I've given you a lot of information.
Please don't ask me about my protocols and then ask me not to tell you the truth.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I did not say I thought you were lying
Your reading into things.
I said I did not believe yet based on my readings that Salt C is the danger you keep typing about..
I keep trying to tell you it is positive to give information.
Its not positive to write the personal attacks or critisism or assumptions or insinuations etc towards others.
Thats what I said..
That is completely separate from what you posted about protocols or information.. I just have to keep sifting through one to get the other..
But i am tiring of that..
And I bet others are too
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Oxygenbabe
Just wondering if any of your protocols are treating your OCD...as you know it stands for OBSSESIVE COMPULSIVE DISORDER. I am not being sarcastic either.
It is not the fact that you have told us that you think the salt/c has damaged your kidneys, but honestly you keep repeating it OVER and OVER and OVER again.
That is definitely a symptom of OCD. Deb has posted all the pros and cons of salt/c. I posted some info on it as well.
OCD is very indicative of severe neurolyme and calling me names is indicative of Lyme rage.
I hope you find a protocol that can help you with that. I find Deb to be one of the most patient,kind, compassionate persons I know.
So, for her buttons to be pushed like that, there has to be a very good reason, believe me.
Gael
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
I take the sugar and vitamin Z protocol for my OCD. It really helps relax me so that I am ZZZZ (sleepy). It's in an alternate reality. Meet you there sometime? Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
And again.. I have not found basis during my research where you have pointed me to.. or my own hours of research that backs up the danger in the way you present it in relation to the protocol. You can not use just salt
reports that one person may have died from it
since almost no doctor would or should approve it.
It is well known and there is abundant scientific information and data that a high salt diet is definitively linked to higher mortality and morbidity from cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure etc.
As well the sorts of comments like
I suspect you don't know the first thing about doing research
its outrageous. Unless, of course, you are a troll, which is a possibility
It seems as if you deleted yourself from the beginning pages of the thread for some reason or someone else deleted it. Who knows.
But.. in essence you are giving others the impression that most people are harmed or are putting their lives in danger by doing this protocol.
Lets be real.. From the research and amount of people I see on here either on or doing the protocol compared to those who I have read about or talked to or was referred to is like 10:1 ratio
That is 90 percent as been positive and 10 percent negative.
That is by using case numbers. And a proportion based on my research which I have spent so far about 60 hours on this research in all the areas I can find and you and others have pointed me in.
I am sorry for those who did not do well ... THis is ironic... and I do not believe this.. But I will use your statement. People are on so many things that maybe the 10 percent had bad reactions to something else. I do not agree with that and I think that most all people are educated enough to for the most part isolate treatments and protocols. And if not they know how to eliminate or such to figure it out. Of course there is not perfect or 100 percent way to know for sure.. Even the doctors use educated guesses or process of eliminaton techniques and or just talking to the patient.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
The salt therapy was found to have beneficial effects in the treatment of:
Asthma and Chronic Bronchitis
COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease)
Allergic Rhinopathy or Hay Fever
Cystic Fibrosis
Sinusitis
Ear Infections
Smoking Cough
Various acute or chronic respiratory disease
Reduce snoring and activates better sleep by clearing the airway passages in oropharyngeal region
Increased resistance to Cold & Flu by opening and clearing the nasal airway and improving the drainage of the sinuses
Humidifies the bronchial secretions reducing broncho-spasm and facilitating elimination of the smoke residual tar, phlegm expel and other allergens
Improves the quality of the indoor air by eliminating the dust, cigarette smoke, bad odours, mould and mites, having bactericide reduction properties.
The salt therapy is a natural method of therapy and does not involve any risk and is finally adapted to the living space. However, this is not a substitute for medical treatment and should only be used as an adjuvant helping to improve the quality of patients life, reducing the antibiotics and corticoids or steroids intake, reducing the rate of annual hospitalizations and decrease the frequency of respiratory diseases attacks. For more information, clinical studies and testimonials you can visit the web site.
NB: The author grants reprint permission to opt-in publications and websites so long as the copyright and by-line are included intact and the article is not used in spam.
Educated and motivated person, having a multicultural background with extensive knowledge about European health products and practices.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Dr. Mercola
quote: Vitamins C and E are antioxidants, compounds that neutralize cell-damaging free radicals. Recent studies have shown that antioxidants may help to reduce high blood pressure (hypertension), possibly by protecting the body's supply of nitric oxide, a molecule that relaxes blood vessels.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
B]Take the Latest Low Sodium Advice With a Grain of Salt[/B] By Paul J. Rosch, M.D.
quote:The "diet dictocrats" are at it again. The latest NHLBI (National Heart Lung and Blood Institute) warning is that Americans are eating too much salt and are therefore at increased risk for hypertension, stroke and heart attacks. Others claim that excess sodium is a poison that can also cause cancer and osteoporosis. NHLBI recommends that not only high blood pressure patients but all Americans should sharply reduce their sodium intake, regardless of age, gender or race.
This is another example of the same, stupid "one size fits all" cookie cutter approach of treating population statistics and laboratory measurements rather than people.
[
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
You say: "But.. in essence you are giving others the impression that most people are harmed or are putting their lives in danger by doing this protocol."
I intended not to give that impression, but to make it clear that that is indeed the case. Absolutely. For those who don't have serious side effects like hypertension, ankle edema, kidney and cardiac damage, there is still the stress of insanely high doses of salt daily.
Some people report improving so much (such as Gale). There is always a quality of life choice to be made if your life is absolutely unbearable and nothing else is happening. But then you make an informed choice.
I don't know what more you need. Do you require me to actually email each person and get their statements for you? If you want, I'll do so.
This is what happened with a few MP adherents on ImmuneSupport. One came on essentially saying it was a miracle cure. When some "naysayers" as they were dubbed by this person, came on to tell of serious side effects, she decided to delete the whole thread because "I can't babysit you people."
Then I started a thread to repost some of the negative effects. She and a few other MP adherents (who I guess *were* doing well and more power to them, I said that, but the risks of that protocol are also serious and sometimes very severe, and must be stated), came onto my thread once again promoting the miracle cure. One of the fellows, Roy, took a similar approach as Gale just did, diagnosing me with severe neurolyme. That is an amusing approach--try to suggest that the poster is invalid because they have severe neurolyme. If only we could all diagnose so easily by internet...
Well then a few new people came on who'd had disastrous effects, absolutely disastrous, from the MP. One had become completely bedridden and was in a terrible state and had to be taken care of by others. The posts were so clear, so detailed, and so horrible to read, that the MP adherents just melted away. None of them apologized or posted showing sympathy for the others' experiences or said that although it had worked so well for them they would consider this new information when suggesting the protocol in the future. They simply disappeared.
So it seems that no matter how much I post, the few who don't want to hear it are going to negate it. When I get the time, as I am on some deadlines, I will get you extremely detailed information. I may still have some of it in older email files.
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
OxygenBabe,
I can't comment one way or the other about the protocol as I have no experience with it. I did want to say it's obvious you don't have 'severe neuro Lyme' based on the your writing, thought process, and ability to construct replies. C'mom everyone. Let's not get too far fetched.
As said many times, if someone wants to do a treatment, it's always up to them to research like crazy, consider side effects/risks, and make a cost/benefit decision. THis applies whether it's Salt/C, JamesCase20's ideas, etc. You are responsible for YOU when you treat. Even those who take Abx suggested by the great Dr. J, Dr. B, etc. make that moral decision.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
A Pillar of Salt Jon Barron
quote: A couple of issues ago, I made a passing comment about the AMA's recent public statement concerning salt, questioning both the validity of their pronouncement and their qualifications to make such a statement in the first place. What a furor it created!
Since then, I have been interviewed by several newspapers, magazines, and appeared on radio talk shows -- all to talk about salt. Who knew it was such a big deal? But since it is, it seems worthwhile to revisit the subject again in more detail.
The primary issue that got lost by the AMA is that not all sources of sodium and salt are the same. As far as the body is concerned, there is no connection between the chemically-cleansed sodium chloride table salt you buy in the supermarket (which is also added to virtually every processed food you buy) and the mineral rich organic unrefined sea salt available in health food stores. One can kill you; the other heals you. In fact, it's essential for life.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME SALT HERE>
SO I AM POSTING THIS!!
It seems maybe people are comparing apples to oranges.
When researching salt you have to make sure you take into consideration that fact that Table Salt is not the same as the salt we are using in the protocol of Rich Organic Unrefined Sea Salts.
Just a research note and a very important one that may explain the differences in research results..
Natural Sea Salt such as "Himalayan Crystal Salt" , "Celtic" and other natural alternatives contain no toxins and all 84 minerals and elements necessary for optimal health.
Unrefined salt (sea salt) is 84% sodium chloride and 16% other minerals.
Watch out as much Sea Salt for cooking you buy in grocery stores and Kosher Salts are REFINDED> --Not Unrefined.. See below.
REFINED- TABLE SALT and some Sea Salts for cooking and Kosher Salts are indeed refined.
Most common table salt is made up of chemicals that pollute your body and wreak havoc on your health.
Refined and Table salt is actually 97.5% sodium chloride and 2.5% chemicals such as moisture absorbents, and iodine. Dried at over 1,200 degrees Fahrenheit, the excessive heat alters the natural chemical structure of the salt causing the potential for a myriad of health problems in your body.
Another fact and note
Salt VS Sodium
Although the words salt and sodium are often used interchangeably when it comes to nutrition, they are not the same. Salt is sodium chloride (NaCl) and Sodium (Na) is, well, just sodium -- a soft metal occurring in isolation only on the periodic table of elements or in a lab.
[ 10. December 2008, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
When going to buy your salt.. Remember this as well.
UNREFINED SEA SALT - DESCRIPTION
Unrefined salt is at heart sea salt, but can come from two sources: either freshly dried from the sea, as in Celtic Sea Salt, or mined from ancient inland ocean beds as in Himalayan Salt. In either case, the salt is a naturally occurring complex of sodium chloride, major minerals such as calcium and magnesium, and a complete complement of essential trace minerals. This is the form of salt the body recognizes and is designed to use.
Note: much of the salt labeled "sea salt" is actually refined table salt unless the package is clearly labeled "unrefined." (This is also true for Kosher salt!)
[ 10. December 2008, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
SALT SENSITIVE PEOPLE - INFORMATION ON THIS SUBJECT!
When we are talking about those who have trouble with this protocol. In all my reading I have read over and over again there is a small population of people who are what are called salt sensitive and are born that way.
This is only 10 percent of the population. So do not worry too much but please read.
Those people need to figure out who they are and those people may be the ones who end up with having trouble here.
I will post what I read and maybe it will help you figure out if you are one of those people. And if so then I would definately take caution as others who have had the same problem were not able to handle this protocol.
READ HERE about how Salt is used and filtered through the body.
Salts important function in the organism is regulating hydration.
Humans excrete salt through their kidneys. But there is only so much salt that can be urinated away, and salt-sensitive individuals excrete less sodium than normal.
If the body can't reduce the salt, the next best way to hit the right level is to increase the amount of water
If you're not drinking enough water, the body finds the extra water it needs by robbing its own cells
Some individuals can't get rid of all salt eaten daily, especially those born with subtle kidney problems that may go undiagnosed. Part of the problem is the chemical attraction between sodium and water.
High levels of sodium in the diet combined with low water consumption leads to hypertension. Every grain of salt that is retained in the body carries with it 20 times its weight in water which increases the amount of fluid in circulation
DRINK LOTS OF WATER is so important like it has been repeated here over and over.. That is true true true.
I drink about 1 1/2 gallons a day.
[ 10. December 2008, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
MORE INFO ON SALT SENSITIVITY AND HOW TO REDUCE IT
From the data I have reviewed and the previous posts it seems there are two populations.
One who is salt sensitive and those need to take much more caution and consideration and this I believe is the group that Oxygen keeps talking about.
SO how do we know if we are one of them? THis is an important thing to know and find out.
WHAT TO DO IF ONE IS SALT-SENSITIVE to HELP REDUCE IT
Everyone should avoid table salt as much as possible. Many salt sensitive people can tolerate some unrefined sea salt. Restaurants can be a problem, as salt is hidden in many dishes. One can ask in some restaurants for low sodium or sodium-free meals.
Eat only natural and unrefined grains and no white sugar. This way one will obtain significantly more magnesium from food, which may help reduce salt sensitivity.
Consider supplementing with magnesium. Quality magnesium supplements include chelates, citrates, glycinates, aspartates and orotates. The latter two contain less magnesium per tablet, though they are well-absorbed.
Taking a magnesium supplement may well reduce salt sensitivity. Magnesium is very safe. Excessive amounts will cause diarrhea. Some physicians give magnesium to bowel tolerance, though I believe this is excessive.
Finally, salt sensitivity may indicate excessive levels of toxic metals or a fast oxidation rate. This can be assessed with a hair mineral analysis. Most people have some toxic metals, regardless of whether they are revealed on tests or not. A nutritional balancing program and infrared sauna therapy are most helpful to remove toxic metals and chemicals that can affect the kidneys, adrenals and pituitary, and contribute to salt sensitivity.
[ 10. December 2008, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
HOW TO DETERMINE IF YOU ARE SALT SENSITIVE
After reading these items I am positive your doctor can tell you if you are one of these populations..
10 percent of the population have this issue.
TESTS
Blood Pressure Monitoring Test
For example, there are some hypertensive patients who are salt sensitive. Salt sensitivity is defined as an increase in blood pressure due to a high sodium intake. Not all hypertensive patients exhibit salt sensitivity. The only way to tell if an individual with hypertension will respond (via lowered blood pressure) to a low-salt diet is to institute a low-salt diet. The research shows that older individuals with hypertension will have a modest response. A review of 56 trials showed that a low-salt diet had minimal effect on blood pressure in the vast majority of people studied.
Kidneys ability to excrete salt test
Another special concern related to those with kidney problems. Salt is excreted in the kidneys and individuals with renal failure will have a decreased ability to clear salt from their diets. These individuals must watch their salt intake carefully. If you have renal failure, I suggest you speak with your doctor before instituting any dietary change, including a change in salt intake.
For the great majority of people a low-salt diet does not work. Patients do not feel well when sodium levels are lowered. Their energy level drops and they develop hormonal and immune system imbalances. It is refined salt that needs to be avoided - it is a toxic, dangerous substance that fails to provide the body with any benefit. Unrefined salt should be the salt of choice.
Looks as if you may be able to have hair tests or tissue tests done as well as a test .. ask your doctor
If you are Salt Sensitive.. The following is true.
Serum sodium usually remains in a narrow range, even when significant pathology is present. The same is not true of tissue mineral analysis. Most people's hair analyses reveal very low levels of sodium. We find this is not related to salt intake, but to the adequacy of the adrenal glands. Aldosterone secreted by the adrenals causes sodium retention.
The mineral pattern characterized by low tissue sodium and potassium is called slow oxidation. These individuals often crave salt and salty foods. Many have a low blood pressure in part due to low sodium, which is related to low blood volume. It is also due to underactivity of the adrenal glands. Adrenal hormones cause constriction of the arteries, which raises blood pressure.
Consuming salt may help raise the sodium level slightly in slow oxidizers, as these individuals are excreting excessive sodium. Consuming sea salt is strongly recommended for these people unless they are salt-sensitive due to other pathology. However, to permanently and significantly raise their tissue sodium, they must improve their adrenal glandular activity.
Slow oxidizers who are eating a magnesium-rich diet may have up to 200 mg of sodium daily with no adverse effects. Some do well on more. This is not a lot compared to that found in a diet of salt-laden refined foods. However, it is certainly not an avoidance of salt.[/i]
Tissue sodium levels may also be extremely elevated. This metabolic pattern is called fast oxidation. It is seen most commonly in children. It is more normal in children. In adults, it is more likely a secondary stress pattern associated with excessive levels of toxic metals affecting the adrenals, kidney or pituitary gland. Excessive sympathetic nervous system activity may also affect the adrenal glands.
The presence of toxic metals, especially cadmium, mercury, lead, arsenic, copper, manganese, iron or aluminum will raise the hair sodium level. This is due to a toxic effect on the kidneys or other organs. The sodium level will drop when these metals are eliminated from the body.
If the tissue sodium level is elevated on a tissue mineral test, one may become salt sensitive. This is not a problem with salt, but a pathology caused usually by toxic metals or toxic chemicals in the kidneys pituitary or adrenal glands.
A hormone-secreting adrenal tumor may also cause excessive sodium retention causing one to become salt-sensitive. Other conditions of salt sensitivity include Cushings disease.
[ 10. December 2008, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Percent of population that is salt Sensitive.
The fact is that only about 10 percent of thepopulation is considered ``salt sensitive.'' It is thisrelatively small group that has to watch their saltintake for a variety of reasons, including itsimpact on blood pressure.
You will find higher numbers posted in some places but that is those who are salt sensitive to Table salt. (Table salt is actually sodium chloride) 40 percent sodium and 60 percent chloride.
For that population considering sensitivity to Salt I read:
Researchers estimate that 10 to 25 percent of the population may be salt-sensitive. Among those with diagnosed hypertension, the number rises to 60 percent.
As well
It appears that people who get older are more sensitive, and those who are obese and the African-American community tends to be more salt-sensitive
[ 10. December 2008, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
ATTENTION>>> ALL Who are READING THIS>
Please read all posts that are giving you information that is to educate you one the main items that are misunderstood and cause confusion regarding this protocol.
THE main issue that comes up is around SALT>!
ONE : THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF SALTS / ONE IN PROTOCOL
First in the protocol you are to use Pure Natural and UNREFINED Sea Salt that is Celtic or Himalayan which are just two ways it is harvested. One is freshly dried and one is harvested. Both are appropriate for this protocol.
The issue around this is that when there are negative issues or data posted it is typically information that is related to the REFINED salt which is much different than the UNREFINED salt.
This must be kept separate and if you research this and compare them you will see they are not considered the same as far as health considerations.
UNREFINED is essential and needed for proper good health REFINED is bad and can actually be toxic and poison and this is where most of the negative information on the protocol can come from..
Not intentionally but from just uneducated people who do not realize that there is a big difference like there exists.
TWO : SALT SENSITIVE PEOPLE ARE ONES TO TAKE CAUTION
Second is the fact that there are salt sensitive people and I posted all about this in the thread on the past page prior to this.
As well again confusion too on salt sensitive to WHICH salt. The reports that are negative typically come from the group of salt sensitive people whom are sensitive to REFINED Salts or those who already have high blood pressure.
Only 10 percent are salt sensitive to UNREFINED Sea Salt.
It is though important to read all I posted and make sure you are not part of that 10 percent.
I HOPE THIS HELPS CLARIFY A LOT OF THE ISSUES AND WHY PEOPLE WERE NOT ABLE TO SEE EYE TO EYE>
NOW that this is clarified there can be more information presented that pertains to the PROTOCOL SALT
UNREFINED NATURAL SEA SALT ONLY!!
Thanks All
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Sorry, Deb, but much celtic sea salt is taken from waters that are heavily polluted (industrial pollution) and probably in some cases contain high levels of heavy metals. That's what I found out when I researched after my experiment, as I wanted to see if the grey celtic salt I'd used had any possible problems.
It's one thing to sprinkle some nice Celtic salt on your food and be sure you don't get excess sodium in your diet in prepared foods--from bread to pasta sauce--it's another to take a large amount of it daily. You cannot be sure what is in your unrefined salt unless you have it tested. That goes for Himalayan salt, too--you don't know really where it's from and what's in it and whether it is contaminated with metals or other contaminants in earth and groundwater.
The rest of your stuff I skimmed so cannot even comment on it and did not look at the sources.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I just cleared up a bunch of confusion and why your are stating all these dangers and issues when it is only related to REFINED SALTS and as well to ONLY The SALT SENSITIVE 10 percent POPULATION>
Unless the people used REFINED SALT IN which that could be more like 50 or 60 percent of the people.
THis is huge information that has not be taken into consideration or show to be included in your data and negative reports.
Yet you are going to move on to picking apart CELTIC SALTS> And if Indeed the CELTIC SALTS Need to be as pure as possible then we all should try to make sure it is..
But that is not comparative to the concern over REFINED SALT ANd how the data out there represents REFINED SALT when it comes to most of the sites and resources regarding all the list of problems you keep listing and quoting..
So I hope people will consider all these variables and not just take your information and run scared when they can be helped and should know ALL The date and information and not just the skinny narrow version.
As you said an I agree.. Everyone needs to know as much as possible that is accurate to be able to make informative choices.
Your presentation has not bee accurate nor inclusive of the variables in the Protocol.
Not the types of ingredients. Not the dosages.. Not the how.. not the when.. not any of the REAL variables.
SO lets be fair here to all people..
And you might want to realize that those who did have trouble had trouble for a reason that is in my variables list.
The are salt senstive.. genetically. They used the wrong kinds of ingredients. They used the wrong amounts. They may have not followed the protocol in other ways .. Maybe other things...... Variables... They may have not drank enough water...
You do not present your cases with real data to see what really happened to those few you list who had trouble. YOu listed the few and it is out of thousands on the protocol.
I feel bad for those who can not take it due to genetic factors..
ANd the ones who did not do the protocol as it was intended I can be sympathetic to because the information is a bit scattered and it takes some time and work to sort through it and understand it and learn about it...
THose who herxed and just felt is was too much to deal with or were afraid can also quit and it can be understandable too if you have new symptoms or weird things like seeing parasites to maybe feel you should stop and research or consult others etc.
I have been contacted by many how have started and stopped to regroup and learn more and who feel they rushed into it etc.
And well there are other things I am sure..
SO lets me fair and spell IT ALL out like it really is..
IF we ant to research Celtic Salts and find out if some are poluted or are not the best for you.. Then we can do that and find the best ones to take that are out there and sold to the general public. That could be helpful as people go out to buy the ingredients for the protocol.
WE have not even started on which C is best.. : ) That can be done too ..
Deb
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
This was your absolutist all caps statement:
UNREFINED NATURAL SEA SALT ONLY!!
I point out that there is good information out there that some sea salts come from heavily polluted areas. Caveat emptor, especially if taking large doses daily.
BTW, the yahoo group Lymestrategies evolved to the point where most of the posts were "off topic" "non salt/c". Do you wonder why?
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi..
The sites you sent me are from advertisers for Himalayan Salts and I read a few of those who say it is better than Celtic..
But upon reading more neutral sites i read that the real salts are all from various places and harvested in different ways. And there has been some concerns depending on where it is harvested and how as to any pollutant concerns.. But I did not find any real data besides on sites wanting to sell their salt.
Some on the protocol like the Himalayan salt and feel it is more pure based on where it is and how it is harvested.
Fine tuning now.. To say the least>. I will keep looking and maybe even certain brands from certain areas might be proven to be more pure of the real salts. That makes some sense but I would not be sure how large of a difference it would be or not.
As well be careful as to some brands use names to look as if they are real or pure but they are trying to get the sale. Read the package etc.
The real thing looks moist. Magnesium in real sea salts helps it retain moisture so real sea salt has a moistness to it and doesn't flow freely like Table Salt.
Himalayan Salt is a fossil marine salt containing 94 elements including calcium, magnesium, potassium, copper and iron; it is higher in sodium than chloride and is mined from the pristine mountains of Himalaya. It mirrors our body with trace minerals.
Course Grey Salt contains a little more minerals than Finely Ground Grey Salt because in order to grind it finely it has been heated and dried over a natural stone. Celtic Sea Salt is the trademarked name for French Grey Sea Salt harvested from the pristine coast of Brittany, France so they are one and the same.
Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
If you are seeing Dr. F, he has probably mentioned to you to refrain from too much magnesium.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Working on it... There are salts that have no magnesium. THANKS
[ 16. December 2008, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
How many people are watching this thread but not talking because they do not want to be put down or given havic for their choices>>??
PM me...
Deb
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
I have done Himalayan Salt, Celtic salt and now I use Real Salt.
Didn't seem to matter for me which salt, because I am healing and the infections are dying bigtime.
Keeping it simple and staying focused on the basis of the protocol has worked for me. Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Let me clarify....The salt Real Salt is the name of the brand that is mined in Utah which I have seen GiGi recommend.
Yes Deb, people have pmd me too that are afraid to use the protocol because they felt fear tactics were being used and it confused them.
They don't want to post here either because they don't want to be attacked for stating they know people who have had positive results and are healing because they used the salt/c protocol.,
It's a darn shame,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Gael.. Nice And actually there are a few other names of types of salt that is UNREFINED. That is the most important thing,. Then where it is harvested and how will determine what kind you have.. and so.. at that point it is more personal and not right or wrong..
But you might want to make sure it is harvested in the least polluted area of the world. Oxygen says that could be an issue and so I am going to take the Hymalian salt from now on..
Thank you
Stay Well. God Bless PEACE LOVE Light HUGS SMILE HEAL HEALTH HAPPINESS HOPE HAPPY HOLIDAYS D
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I think the reasons to not take magnesium may not outweigh these reasons that lyme patients need Magnesium very much so.'
Magnesium: Both Lyme and Bartonella significantly deplete the body�s supply of magnesium. Magnesium is one of the most important mineral nutrients necessary for good health, and also one of the minerals that Americans in general are most commonly deficient in.
The recommended daily intake of magnesium for healthy people is 400 mg per day, but the sad reality is that the average American gets about half that amount per day.
The best nutritional sources include green foods, especially collards and chard (magnesium is to chlorophyll what iron is to hemoglobin), orange-colored foods, nuts, chocolate, figs, apricots, coconut, bran, oats, beans, and legumes.
Most widely known for its ability to support the health of the bones, heart, skeletal muscles, and teeth, magnesium also plays essential roles in the maintenance and repair of all body cells, energy production, hormone regulation, nerve transmission, and the metabolism of proteins and nucleic acids.
It also helps to reverse muscular tension and is involved in the functioning of literally hundreds of the body�s enzymatic reactions. A lack of magnesium can also contribute to immune system dysfunction, depression, fatigue, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, gastrointestinal problems, irregular heartbeat, memory problems, mood swings, muscle spasms and twitching, and motor skill problems.
Many chronic symptoms of Lyme/TBDs are related to magnesium deficiency, and the correction of that deficiency can be very effective in relieving those symptoms.
For that reason, I routinely test nearly all patients with chronic Lyme symptoms for magnesium deficiency. The problem with blood testing is that the magnesium blood test should be done on the red bloods cells and not the serum.
This is because magnesium exists primarily inside of cells (intracellular, as in red blood cells), and deficiency will not be detected in fluid outside of the cells (extracellular, as in serum or plasma) until a very profound deficiency exists. If you can afford it, the best, and also most expensive, test is the blood �ionized� magnesium (performed by most large commercial labs).
If blood testing shows low levels of magnesium and if kidney function is good, supplementation is highly recommended, in a dosage range of 400�1,000 mg per day. Take in divided doses because taking large amounts of magnesium may result in loose stools.
There are many good products on the market, the best of which contain primarily magnesium chloride or �chelated� magnesium (such as taurate, citrate, aspartate, glycinate, and others.)
[ 11. December 2008, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
And yes, Gale, people have PM'ed me that there is nothing I can do to help people who just want to believe no matter what, and other people have PM'ed me thanking for trying to help people understand the risks. So maybe it's not so sad after all.
You could happily discuss it all on lymestrategies since they routinely banned anyone who talked about risks/dangers/side effects in any other terms than herx and cowboy up. Kurt was banned, I was banned, and Ann (Hiker) was banned among others.
You can join, or you can just bookmark it since it's a public list (if you want to lurk). You will find people to help you there and no "naysayers".
I'm glad you're feeling better, Gale. But the problem for me was when you suggested the stories I told were not credible, that I was using fear tactics, and finally suggested I suffer from severe neurolyme/OCD. In other words, my legitimate citing of the risks, which can be substantial for some people (all intended to help people as I wish I'd been helped two years ago so I could have made a more informed decision myself, since the risks were whitewashed off lymestrategies site and I had to do a bit of research after my experience to really learn and find out about others who'd had equally bad experiences--), you kept trying to invalidate. That is not right.
Enough said because I'm sure there are lurkers who will be cautious now and maybe there are even a few who will be saved some bad side effects that they misinterpeted as herx. Again, I'm glad you feel better.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I do not understand why you would be banned from the site just for having a bad experience and if that is true ...
I agree that is wrong. I have looked around some on that site and read a few pots. I am going to look further and though if you are right I would not like it if no one who has had tough times with it were allowed there.
I had not noticed really right off the bad and also did not look to see about the fact that the negatives were not allowed to be there.> That is disturbing to know and maybe that group is handling themselves in a wrong way.? I would am going to spend more time there and see what I can about that and maybe that should be changed as well..?
You are right that information from the problems as well as the successes are important for new people to evaluate as well as keep in their minds if they proceed.
It has helped me to hear it all. Very much so...
I agree that this protocol should proboably be written up or presented in a better manner with more details and the pros and cons and both sides of the coin and how and why some have had trouble. As I wrote in a lot of the posts there are variables such as genetics and as well as how and what is taken and of course your medical conditions you may already have to start with may not be healthy enough to start.
I suggest that people do research and read and read and read and keep and open mind and make a nice long document of your own (until there becomes a better one out there ) of all the data you find and details about the protocol the products used, the method, peoples experiences, and dig down into the reasons for the failures and then if you choose to proceed your armed with all the information to save you from any problems you may have not know about to start with.
i have concern when I hear that some are told to Stick with it.. in a herx reaction and push through it and hang in there etc. And sometimes that can be harmful.. Listen to your body and learn from others and doctors what herx feels like and what is normal and when something does not add up or feel right stop the therapy and get some medical attention and do what your body needs. Even in normal herxing I do not agree with this and think your body needs breaks and you should not push yourself or your organs to do more and more and with risk of damage.
Take those times to give your body time to cleanse and regroup and get rid of the purge of toxins or infections it is trying to rid of. In essence you are doing the same thing as hanging in there but even better. Your helping preserve your organs and body along the way.
From my research there are is about 10 perecent of the people who just can not handle the salt aspect of the therapythis due to genetic reasons .. predisposed for salt sensitivites and unable to be able to get rid of extra salts and that can be damaging.
Then there are others who might have medical issues already standing. Then there are some who are not given all the correct information on the how to do the protoocol and what ingredients to use etc.. And more variables as I wrote in some of the other posts... To add
I had to do a lot of work and digging to get all the facts and all the information and group it together to come up with what I felt was correct.
That is a bit scary and can add to the issue of people not doing well with it..
So - I agree.> Read and reasearch.. Learn and get informed.
Maybe this thread helped people see that it is not really so simple and there is a lot to learn and know.
Debbie
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I have been on this treatment only 2 weeks and I have had maybe one herx for 3days that may or may not be related to the therapy.
Prior to that upon first starting I had felt better and a clearing type feeling. It was nice and I was not sure if it was the Salt C but it happened in that first week I started it.
I am still waiting for time to make my determinations ,but as well after that bad weekend I had. Again I have felt better than usual and again more clear.
The fatigue is not near as heavy. My pain is feeling a lessoning as well. Those usually go hand in hand for me.. Pain and Fatigue.
And then I have other things that are improving.. Sleep is an amazing thing..again it may be too soon to tell why... But It is weird.. Ok I have not ever felt this way... as this week.. I actually get sleepy at night and fall asleep in that normal way. I am getting flashbacks of when i was healthy and wow it is amazing.
I have not idea why this is happening and how.. but I am happy about it.. I actually was falling asleep at my computer last night. THAT is rare and ok I can Never think of other times that has happened at all in the past 8 years. This has been happening all week and even the first week I had noticed changes towards this affect but waited to see if it continued. So far it is..
What a feeling to drift to sleep.. I am so happy ..I hope this one is to stay..
So well again. Not sure what is going on for sure. i can say there has been obvious good things going on.
I am prepared for herxes to come and though in my past when I herx from something it is usually one huge long herx and the only way to get through it is for me to pulse the therapy or to take breaks etc.
This feeling is new to me.. I do admit I like it and I am excited to see if this will build and grow or not...
Other improvements I already see are some of the other symptoms such as blurry vision and concentration and some other things on my long list of issues related to the disease.
Pain and fatigue have always been my number one items but we all know and can related to all the other bothersome things that we have to deal with day to day..
I will give more updates on the other Posting for Updates and in time we can put it together to see the trend and or to see what evolves.
I have tried a lot of therapies in my years.. Many many of all kinds.. And I admit so far i have not had an experience like this.
Honestly i will say I am suprised as to how well i feel and how this is affecting me so far.
I also have worked very hard on detox this year.. Ia m thinking this might be that push and maybe I will not herx as bad as some others do because of that?
I am a bit suprised that I am not herxing ongoing and as a lot of therpies I try to make me herx badly. Hence the detox work I have to work hard at and that has always been an issue for me. Either it is paying off of this may be a temporary feeling of wellness and improvement and all the horrible herxing is still to come>>?
Stay tuned.
Time will tell.
D
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
GEEZ, it sounds like everyone here has said their peace.
By the text in the posts all the "digs and insults" STARTED from the people who can not take the salt C. And people such as Gael and Deb have been left to defend themselves.
All information, positive and negative is good but the need to demean and control others is not.
Like with everything else in life there is positive and negative. They've all been discussed here and we are now all more informed. Thank you for that.
I guess like lyme disease, OCD must be a pain to live with too.
It's time to heal.
[ 11. December 2008, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: FancyRatFan ]
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Deb, the amount you are doing is probably helping your adrenals. Check out the work of James Wilson and his book on adrenal fatigue. For those with adrenal exhaustion a relatively small extra amount of salt daily can be helpful. He also has other supplements that might interest you, and his book explains the symptoms of adrenal fatigue.
Also, Deb, just so you understand, it's likely true that some salts are healthier than others, but there is no "right" or "wrong" kind of salt for this "protocol". Lymephotos took salt pills, which does have the advantage of knowing exactly how much you're taking. At some point when people were having bad side effects it was suggested by Marc and others on lymestrategies that the *type* of salt was the cause. There were "right" salts and "wrong" salts. Think about this and you will understand this cannot be the case.
It was also suggested that people weren't following the "ramp up" correctly. Yet even those who did, sometimes had very adverse effects. So that wasn't the cause many times either. The problem was, how was one to know during ramp up when the "toxic" level might have been reached, and in addition, how was one to distinguish toxicity/harmful side effects from herxheimers? This is one reason it is wise to be under the care of a good doctor, let them know you are doing this, and be monitored, I would say at least every month or two esp for kidney function. And by the way, BUN and creatinine are measures of kidney function once it is really impaired. Better measures are microalbumin in the urine and there are some others that are very good early measures (used in diabetics).
Also monitor blood pressure frequently.
Oddly enough, somebody from Las Vegas who has had lyme since 2003 called me today. She has been on doxycycline for 3 years but though it helped a good deal it did not cure her and now she has such yeast problems she will have to stop it. She also does bee venom (Gigi has talked about this therapy) which gives her a lot of energy she says, and various other holistic therapies. She wanted to know firsthand about the hyperbaric chamber. Anyway, in the course of describing my ups and downs I mentioned that salt/c had really done a number on me and set me back and she said, "Me too. It really caused me a setback."
So...lots of people don't post about such things, they just move on. I get a little tired of posting here what was posted two years ago, but if it helps some people be more cautious, then all to the good.
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
Deb- I can totally understand where you are coming from. When i first started salt c, i felt soooo great for the first 3 days. i actually thought to myself, wow, i don't think i am going to herx, i'm just going to feel better and better...
i look back and laugh, the reprieve you feel is the calm before the storm. i had that. then, oh my god, the 4 week herx hit and it was hard.
deb, really hard. every inch of my body hurt, fatigue, swollen glands, headaches. the herx was far more severe than any abx herx i have ever had. so be prepared. but, it sooo worth it. because on the other side of the herx is so much healing.
i have just passed the 7 month mark and am overjoyed at the clarity in my thinking. i don't have brain fog. i know it may wax and wane again with the upcoming herxes but, today it is not there.
my experience with salt c is things get worse, better then worse again...take your time
i spoke to gael about something that happened to mt privately this week and i will share it with you as well. i had what looked like a worm in my stool this week. i about passed out i was so grossed out. it was 2 inches long and had a picner appendage and i am still in TOTAL shock.
what the heck, right? gross. gross. well, i am happy it is out not in.
i have passed a few things on that lymephotos site. again, in the beginning, i thought i will never see those things in the toilet, and now here i am 7 months later, soooo grossed out.
i don't tell you this to scare you. just to keep you informed.
i am soooo encouraged with salt c. i am amazed. thank god we have this protocol. i owe marc my life. so good luck and remember take your time. sammy
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
Deb- I can totally understand where you are coming from. When i first started salt c, i felt soooo great for the first 3 days. i actually thought to myself, wow, i don't think i am going to herx, i'm just going to feel better and better...
i look back and laugh, the reprieve you feel is the calm before the storm. i had that. then, oh my god, the 4 week herx hit and it was hard.
deb, really hard. every inch of my body hurt, fatigue, swollen glands, headaches. the herx was far more severe than any abx herx i have ever had. so be prepared. but, it sooo worth it. because on the other side of the herx is so much healing.
i have just passed the 7 month mark and am overjoyed at the clarity in my thinking. i don't have brain fog. i know it may wax and wane again with the upcoming herxes but, today it is not there.
my experience with salt c is things get worse, better then worse again...take your time
i spoke to gael about something that happened to mt privately this week and i will share it with you as well. i had what looked like a worm in my stool this week. i about passed out i was so grossed out. it was 2 inches long and had a picner appendage and i am still in TOTAL shock.
what the heck, right? gross. gross. well, i am happy it is out not in.
i have passed a few things on that lymephotos site. again, in the beginning, i thought i will never see those things in the toilet, and now here i am 7 months later, soooo grossed out.
i don't tell you this to scare you. just to keep you informed.
i am soooo encouraged with salt c. i am amazed. thank god we have this protocol. i owe marc my life. so good luck and remember take your time. sammy
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Sammy,
So glad you are doing so well. Thanks for sharing with us the fact that you found that parasitic worm.
It's unbelievable what is going on inside our bodys. It makes sense tho when you think about the symptoms.
Especially when people report the stinging, biting, crawling they experience. It's no wonder we are so sick. It just makes sense.
This protocol is saving me life as well. That's why I feel it's so important that people know about it.
It at least gives them a fighting chance,
Hope you are having a good evening,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Oh yikes. Even after 7 months you have having those things coming out??? So did you have them coming out right away too>?? And how often>> ever since>>?? Just curious.
Glad you are doing well. Its so nice to hear.
DANG.. You had to burst my little bubble. I guess i better enjoy it while I can.. So it was week 4 for you. And maybe I can have 3 weeks like this>> I Will take anything I can get .. honestly. after the years of sickness.. I cheerish very minute
DEBBIE>
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Ummm Deb,
I still have smaller ones still coming out after 2 yrs. Actually I realized it's 2 1/2 yrs. Started salt/c May 2006.
You have to realize it's like peeling an onion. The salt is waking up the ones that were hibernating.
Also don't forget these things can lay about 200,000 eggs a day. It's just know wonder this is such a brutal disease.
Yes, what Sammy says is true, so enjoy while you can,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Here is the link to the article you sent to me.
Called:
Salt Deficiency: the cause of many serious diseases
Thanks for posting that Deb. I really think it could be a serious problem with a lot of people.
We are 75% saline and it's close to a sea salt composition.
Thanks Again, Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I just read this huge long article by
Dietrich K.Klinghardt, MD, PhD
Below some parts and just a few items mentioned . but the point I am writing mostly about is the List of Things to treat and the order.. I found this interesting
The co-infections are bacterial, viral, fungal and parasitic
A list of significant co-infections is limited: roundworms, tapeworms, threadworms, toxoplasmosis, giardia and amoebas, clostridia, the herpes virus family, parvovirus B 19, active measles (in the small intestine), leptospirosis, chronic strep infections and their mutations, Babesia, Brucella, Ehrlichiosis, Bartonella, mycoplasma, Rickettsia, Bartonella and a few others. Molds and fungi are always part of the picture.
There is an inherent order in which the microbes should be treated. If the order is correct, gentle methods work
1. Start with deworming our clients. We often use a simple yet agressive seasalt/Vit C protocol which has an independent effect aginst the spirochetes also. The high salt conmcentration kills large parasites by osmotically induced dehydration (osmotic shock). High salt levels also increase the enzyme elastase which has a strong antimicrobial/anti-spirochete effect
2. Next step is the treatment of giardia, entamoeba histolytica and trichomonas Protocol: organic freeze dried garlic treats all of the above astoundingly successfully sometimes Tinidazole
3. Next the chronic strep infections, which often coexist with the herpes viruses. No other treatment has been as successful as Pleo Not (penicillum notatum) from Pleomorphic-Sanum followed by a 6 month course of Pleo Sancom. cryotherapy of tonsils may be necessary
4. The next step is the treatment of Babesia. There are now at least 17 subtypes of this intracellular Malaria-like organism. Eye, brain and dental symptoms are most often caused by this mean microbe.Artemisinin always with grapefruit juice. Riamet or Mepron.
5. Next step is to start the client on a systemic antiviral treatment.ayurvedic herb cocktail - Indian Gooseberry, Chebulic and Beleric myrobalan. The insomnia of Lyme disease is often herpes viral in nature (EBV, VZ or HSV 1, HSV II). As a diagnostic trial I often use 1000 mg of the medical antiviral drug Valtrex at bedtime. If there is a dramatic improvement, herbal antiviral treatment has to be considered for a long time.
6. Simultaneously the fungal/yeast component which is most often present, especially if clients had prior antibiotic treatment. Fungi and viruses seem to support each other in yet unknown ways.amphotericin B (250 mg bid) or the combination of organic freeze dried garlic and oil of oregano.
8. Mycoplasma responds well to enzymes, when it is treated in sequence with the other microbes
9. The spirochetes and their close relatives ( Bartonella, Rickettsia, Ehrlichiosis, Brucella abortis) are best treated last - with antimicrobial herbs or antibiotics.,
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Deb,
Thanks For posting this info. Very concise and to the point.
I had mentioned much earlier on this thread that Dr. K. treats all his Lyme patients for worms with salt/C .
He is considered the best LLMD in the country by many. Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hey Gael
I am thinking that a lot of people do not realize that BABESIA is a PARASITE..
Would I be going out on a limb to say that..> I do not want to insult anyone.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
This was found on a technical website under the treatment options section.. and is A description of Salt therapy for lyme disease.
TREATMENT OPTION FOR LYME DISEASE
Oral Salt Therapy is the process of taking high quantities of salt internally. High amounts of sodium stimulate the white blood cells to release elastase, an enzyme that begins a cascade of events that leads to boring a hole in the spirochete or other infectious organism, and hence killing it.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
I am not sure how most people think of babesia.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Well each of the "infections" have a a different basis and I think when someone says parasite they may not associate it with Babesia and Bartonella
But well.. well.. I may be wrong.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Oh my .. Well I am sorry . I did not see your new thread..
Until now.
Your way ahead of the game.. I hope people read it and start thinking about
We should put a link to that one here now..
Thanks D
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Here is another post discussing all the realms of the(infections) parasites that we all have and are diagnosed with..
Nothing to be sorry about. I just wasn't sure how other people perceive some of these infections.
Example: Some people have poo-pooed the pictures from lymephotos as being fake. I can tell you I have seen these parasites first hand and they are the real deal.
I guess it is pretty horrifying and it's understandable how people go into denial.
I once saw a thread a long time ago, where one person said"I'd rather stay in denial". Thanks for posting that link,
Hope your okay today,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hey there.. Can I ask you a graphic question. What color are the ones you see and I know you said they match the site pictures
But are any of them just white?
As well.> Why do they not have Bartonella up there no the Parasite page. I had thought it would be inclusive in that group? Facultative intracellular parasites
Or am I just not seeing it there?
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Another question..When they come out of you are they always dead or are they moving at all and alive still???
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
And what ones do you see most of and second to the most and how many total species do you think you have seen?
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
They are ALWAYS dead. They have been shocked osmotically by the salt. They are blue, pink/red/black exactly as seen on the site.
I have seen a lot of white ones as well. I think those are thread worms. Some of them look exactly like earth worms.
We can have more parasites than pictured in the photos.(tapeworms, roundworms, ascaris etc) As explained, each Lyme patient has other parasites not pictured.
We each have accumulated different ones depending on what we have ingested over the years.
In general the ones pictured seem to be most prevelant. I don't know about the Bartonella.
It is a good question though.Have to give it some thought.
Hope this answers your questions,
Gael
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Good stuff you guys.
My sister sent me the lymephotos site. When I read that these things came out of you I freaked a bit.
However I couldn't get that picture out of my mind. The thought they were in my body was worse than the thought of seeing them come out.
Now Im used to the idea and awaiting to see these things come out.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Fancy,
You have a very smart sister. When they come out you will understand why you have been so sick.
Deb and Sammy are both seeing stuff. You know now what you are mainly dealing with, so you can take charge and go after them.
Given the symptoms Lyme sufferers have, it just makes sense that spirochetes are not the only enemy.
The salt also kills the other infections as well. It is a powerful bacteriocide.
I refer to and read the lymephotos site a lot. I always see info I didn't see before.
Take Care,
Gael
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
okay, i took gael's advice and referred back to the lymephotos site. oh god. ugh. i now have seen many of these buggers in the toilet.
gael, remember when i told you i had what looked like a worm on my tp the other day? well, i am convinced that what i saw on the tp was the "cocoon" from the lymephotos site.
ugh. gross. it looked just like that. long and gelatinous. oh god.
also, with most of my BM's i have been seeing red threadlike things. i thought they were remnants of my tomatoes. wrong. stopped eating tomatoes for a week as an experiment and they are still in the toilet.
ugh. gross. i can't believe i have worms in me.
i am shocked. i am 7 months in and just noticing these things. well, they may have been exiting all along, i just started to look.
gael, do you still experince diarrhea? i do. a lot. i guess that is a good sign that my body is trying to get rid of it all.
anyhow, wow. i am amazed that all of this junk is inside me. makes me sad. no wonder i have felt so sick for so long.
talk soon sammy
Posted by evgen (Member # 14118) on :
This thread is a waste of time. Those of you looking for truly effective protocols - switch to a different one. Others enjoy Gael & Deb bla bla show. Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Evgen,
FYI, there are a lot of people watching this thread. They are sending Deb and I pms for support while doing the salt/c and making great progress.
These are highly intelligent individuals who understand how powerful and effective this protocol is and they will get well.
People don't like posting here because of unkind messages such as yours.
Gael
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
Evgen,
I'm not on the protocol, but why on earth would you make a comment like that? 33 posts and that's all you have to say on Lymenet..hmmm..
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hey there.. Guys.. This is i know weird to talk about so openly but I too am seeing stuff and I do have the runs .. so far on the 5th day of treatment.. and I am taking day 6 and 7 off for me to just recoup. Its has been more powerful than I thought and I think is is great and I am excited more and more. I have done a lot of research and I continue to do so. and the more I read and put all the peices together the more I see how this is helping and will help.
The things we are diganosed with like the babesia and bartonella and others and the ones we are not diagnosed with are parasites and it is proven that the salt environment kills them off..
As well even the Lyme is being proven to be able to be killed too. It is shown to be a bit tougher and take a bit longer on the lyme bacteteria but.
it is so helpeful to read these things and makes me hopeful And the readings I do are not from ads for the protocol or just anyone . From doctors.
I am also taking it with a grain of salt > LOL and am being smart and watchiing or any problems that might come my way that might be issues that are to be kept an eye no and such..
I know that there are people who do not want to put themselves on this thread because of the havic and the putting down etc.
Its obvious if they jump in they have to be prepared to hear it and I certainly do not blame them for not posting..
I may not be posting near as much and hope what is up here will already give people good information to help them.
I will though keep letting everyone know how I am doing. No matter what.. Good or bad.. Whether I have to stop it or not.. I am going to give all the honest data for anyone else to learn from...
Hey Seek.. I know your looking for some direction and as well I know you said your frustrated with the testing situation your in. Let me know how your doing and if there is any progress made with your doctors etc.
And I would say you might want to try this salt c ..even just for a week or two.. Just to see how you feel or react.
If anything. There are many docts who have all lyme patients do this as a parasite cleanse for like 3 .. 3 week cycles to at least take down any load they are carrying .. Did you read the article I posted on that and how the doctor attacked things in a certain order.. ANd the parasites he got to first and it is the Salt that he uses.
Something to think about.
I think all diseases have this issue and is a basis that many people do not get to or know how to resolve..
Anyway Take care and Keep In touch. Hi Fancy! Deb
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
evgen, Your comment was just plain RUDE! Grow up and gain some knowledge.
Thanks Gael for the comment on my sister. My brother-in-law and her have surprised me this past year by doing research themselves. I have benefited for it.
Good to hear from Sammy, Deb and Seek,
Fancy
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Everyone,
I just typed a long post on data sharing, so I will keep this short. Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Okay, One more thing,
Deb, I think seek has a problem with hypertension, so understandable that he would be afraid of doing this protocol.
Seek, do I remember that correctly?
I started to do come across some new info that there is a correlation between inflammation, infection and high blood pressure.
It kinda makes sense. Maybe the salt causes the b/p to go up because it's attacking the infection. Anyone else have any info on that?
Just a wild guess. I don't really know. Well, I'm :sleepy
Gael
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
The simple explanation works best. Don't need to invoke infection.
Eating as we do, many people accumulate more salt and water than their kidneys can handle. Some people have genes that control cellular channels, enzymes and hormones at various sites in the kidney, conserving salt to enable adaptation to the hot, dry savannah. (4,5) In order to remain active, one had to control body temperature. If water and salt were scarce, the kidney would conserve salt to retain fluid used to coat the body with sweat during activity. As sweat evaporated from the skin, it would cool the skin and keep body temperature normal. Without sweating, the body would quickly overheat during activity. However, those genes necessary in our early development mistakenly conserve salt regardless of the environment. As long as excessive salt is ingested, it will be disproportionately reabsorbed in about 20 percent of the population. (6) Through a process known as osmosis, salt retains water. It also promotes thirst, as every bartender and movie theater proprietor knows. Excessive salt keeps the circulatory volume higher than it should be, exerting excess fluid pressure on blood vessel walls. These walls react to this stress by thickening and narrowing, leaving less space for the fluid already cramped in the blood compartment, raising ``resistance'' and requiring higher pressure to move blood to the organs. The heart has to pump against this high pressure system. Lifting free weights in the athletic center causes muscles to become harder and larger. This same phenomenon happens to the heart with one notable exception, there is no break. This 24/7 activity can cause the heart to enlarge dramatically, and dangerously. The kidney contains around one million tiny, delicate filters comprised of blood vessels. The increase in pressure transmitted to the kidneys damages its vascular system (7) leading to a disorder known as ``hypertensive nephrosclerosis,'' a major cause of kidney disease. ---
However, the SAD is already way too high in salt so it effects more than that 20% of the population. And if you are eating regular foods of any kind (bread, pasta, pasta sauces, canned foods, anything, there is excess salt in all of it) plus 20 grams a day--well--yikes!!! Is all I can say, esp for years!
Infection and inflammation *could* raise bp but not through salt. Fibrinogen can be laid down in response to chronic infection and the blood gets stickier and the blood vessel walls less flexible, thus hbp. A different matter entirely.
Your supposedly OCD sugar and vitamin Z pest...
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
How long do people usually have to take the salt/c protocol to get rid of the parasites? I'm thinking this protocol might be better done in the summer when you need more salt anyway.
Sheryl
Posted by sammy1 (Member # 12754) on :
this protocol needs to be done for a prolonged period of time to see results. marc's motto is "pace not race" and he is right. it takes time and if you are willing to invest the time, you will see results.
i am also taking 20 grams of each. took me three months to work up to full dose.
i saw liver flukes about one month in. gross. just keep going, there is so much healing on the other side of the herxes. i can promise you that.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I told you that chronic infection can lead to high blood pressure through hypercoagulation.
In addition excess salt on its own can lead to hbp.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I still can not believe I can not just read some posts without hearing some sort of dig or insinuation or some sort of sarcasm.
I think your energy is going to keep you from getting healthy. SO are you going to change? I think you should listen to me. Negative thinking and negativity will keep you down and keep you sick and not only that you send your negativity towards other sick people who just want to be lifted up.
Its not what your saying that is wrong Its how your saying it.!
Think about how you affect others. ITs not nice.
There are hurting people. They want to just read things and learn without all the drama and extra negative energy.
Please.. I am saying please.. Stop..
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Oxy,
Deb said it well and you should listen. You seem to have a mission to control what other people take to heal.
Namely salt/c. Example is when you wanted to have it removed permanently from ever being discussed on lymenet again. Sounds like the 3rd reich to me.
We have listed all the cons(pre-existing conditions and people that are salt sensitive.) That's the end of the story!!!
We are well educated intelligent people, very capable of making informative decisions.
Give other people that view this thread the same respect. The time you spend here you could put into your own healing, maybe taking a hyperbaric dive.
Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
My correct and honest information is not negative energy. It protects others and provides much needed balance. This does not mean I have OCD or that my posting on this thread will prevent me from getting over Lyme.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
If you didn't have a hidden agenda I would almost buy that. But I know better.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I SAID
IT is HOW YOU say it and HOW you present it ...!
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Why don't you worry less about whether you find my tone and style appealing, and just try to take in the information so you don't harm your health.
And I would recommend seeing a specialist in parasitic infections (such as an infectious disease expert who often handles cases from world travellers) if you believe you are filled with noxious parasites.
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
This thread has been crazy...lol. Do you realize there are 260+ posts primarily from 4 members? This wqs over the course of a short period.
DebAz, you asked about my BP. Yes, I do have hypertension to some degree even on three medications. Therefore, I don'r believe salt/C is prudent for me.
Gael, I could 'presume' an underlying infection is causing my hypertension, but that's highly speculative. It could be a decision that will cost me my life and not supported by fact. Taking 20 gr of salt/C could be very bad. By the time I figure out if I'm one the 'salt-sensitive' individuals, could I have done irreversible damage to myself?
At this point, I don't see why we need to many back to back to back to back point/counter-points on this thread. Is someone isn't intelligent enough to research it after this many contradictions, then they deserve the consequences. We all live w/out decisions.
I would think an ID doc could help with all the worms in the body if they are there. It seems so unlikely that many exist and no way they can pinpoint them. But who knows....I'm no expert.
This went from another thread that was SUPPOSED to be daily logging and facts to a bullfight. Can't it get back to what it was intended?
By the way, tone can't be detected in writing much. Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hey Seek,
I do hear what you are saying. I am very sensitive to the fact you have hypertension. I am just finding info suggesting that some infections could cause H/B.
In no way am I suggesting that someone with this condition take excess salt.
It's just interesting that there could be a correlation. If I had a problem with hypertension I am sure I would be pursuing other ways to get rid of the infection.
I think it's also possible that some antibiotics could elevate blood pressure attacking an infection until it's under control.
Dr. K. treats ALL of his Lyme patients for worms and parasites. The ID docs have not a clue.
Hundreds of Lyme patients are reporting the same parasites and worms exiting upon treatment and I don't think our Lyme is any different than anyone elses.
Lets all just focus on getting well.
Take Care,
Gael
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
Gael,
Thanks for the information. Ironically, I had a conversation with a chiropractor today about sea salt and hypertension. They recommend sea salt highly to all patients. I asked him how much to take and he said 1/2 tsp per day. I told him I have hypertension and what was his response....'Pump it up to 1 tsp a day' as it helps LOWER BP. Interesting. Now, I don't think anyone would say take 20 grams, but....
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Wow Seek,
That is really interesting that your chiro said that. If you are considering it, I would suggest you only start with 1/4tsp salt p/day.
I am very conservative and I don't have high blood pressure. I did that for a week and then increased it another 1/4 tsp. I ramped up very slowly to see how I would react.
I didn't get up to 20gms for about a yr. Sammy on here takes 20gms and she is only at 7 mos mark.
Not everyone goes to that dose. Deb and Fancy are seeing results at 1/2 tsp. People usually do what they can tolerate.
I hope you at least give it a shot, esp since your chiro gave you the green light,
Let us know,
Gael
P. S really pleasantly surprised
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi Seek.
Just wanted to say a couple things.
I agree with you that this has gotten too long and out of control somewhat. honestly there were lots of other posts inbetween in the beginning but some got kicked off and others deleted stuff..
There is a lot of interest in this subject.. I posted a quick post on another forum and it had a few posts but within a few weeks over 20000 views.!..Amazing. i had no idea.
As well.. it is interesting about what your chiro said. very interesting. that matches a lot of what I have read as well. I know it gets confusing and though too I agree we are intelligent enough to read the stuff we have put here and as well research on our own.. And choose..
not sure why ob keeps saying we should listen to her if we want to save ourselves. I appreciate the warning.. and I have taken that into consideration. but as well I have read and found out that she was taking 20 grams right away and did not start slowly. I know that there is limited info and as well I also was almost going to make that mistake. Gael saved me.. So that may have a lot to do with her not having success and even hurting herself.. Those on that much have worked up to it slowly as they are able and some stay at smaller dosings...
I read an old post of hers that describes what she did and it can only help us understand her experience more and as well help our learning journey. I can get it here to be viewed.
As well there is another thread for just people on the protocol who are checking in and who are sharing how they are doing.. Maybe you did not realize that and though this one was it??
I know it is a bit confusing and I had no clue both of them would end up so huge..
Anyone the other one is usually right there on the first page alone with this one.. I figured this one would fade out and go into archive.. but it stays here and alive for now.
I guess there is more learning and discussion people want to engage in.
And I say that can be powerful if it is done in a constructive way . TAKE care.. and I hope that somehow this all helps you.. No matter what path you choose
Deb
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I will tell you from my own experience so for that having people there to talk to and check in with along the way during the starting of the treatment helps immensely.. SO if you do decide on anything
we are all here to help and be there and share information with etc.
I have taken the view .. that .. so many readings have told me many great doctors treat lyme patients by treating parasites first and even if this is not a prolonged treatement for me..
At least I feel it is a good cleansing and a way to also tell how I tolerate it and to keep learning.
if it leads me longer term and proves to help more than a cleansing that that is where I will go..
one day at a time and .. As Gael as taught me.. Slow and steady and ... and paying attention carefully along the way..
I actually bought a blood pressure cuff and a new thermometer
At my docs I have a bit highter BP than I like and when i go to the pharamacy or what not I end up lower .. and more normal. So i am going to check on it at home myself.. I figure its a good idea no matter what.
And as well my last few months I have had a fever at my doc appaointments.. like low grade.. 99.9 100.1 and such.
Interesting. But . i plan on watching myself ... So I can catch any trends before my monthly visits.. to the doctor
Deb
Posted by doc (Member # 14471) on :
WOW , i cant belive 2 people can post so much . it seem a bit like spam. you guys gettin payed lol . , Doc
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
I agree lots of posts...played for what? lol. They aren't making any money selling anything! C'mon....
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
I never took 20 grams. Depending on the type of salt you use (I used grey sea salt from France) it was 8-12. At the time people were saying 1/4 teaspoon was about 1 gram. Salts vary depending on their other minerals.
I did not ramp up. Whoop ti do. I only did FOUR DAYS and look what happened. And then of course I found that people who ramped up every so slowly--like Kurt took TWO YEARS to get to a full dose, or others who had cardiac symptoms at say only four grams, etc...I found out that a number of people had really bad experiences, and there was no common denominator--no common "flaw" in their approach.
Oh yeah, and Marc misunderstood me when I said I could not get my normal IV vitamins and minerals after that (in isotonic saline--the same osmolarity as blood--as IV drips are always given, or sometimes in dextrose with the proper osmolarity). I couldn't handle any kind of salt I couldn't even eat swiss chard without becoming overcome with weakness, for ages and ages...my body simply could not handle salt after I overdosed it for those few days. And there have been lasting consequences.
I have been considering telling you to do some research on the evolution of humans and parasites, and how parasite infections can help regulate immunity in a beneficial way. There is less autoimmune illness, less asthma, etc, in those who naturally get infected with parasites when young. Also google microbiota and start reading about the organisms in our gut that keep us alive. Just because you see some stuff coming out that you killed with salt, does not mean that it was pathogenic. Maybe it was a good guy that was helping you.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
This is the reason Doc,
A lot of people are sending Deb and I private messages, because they are considering the salt/c protocol.
They are watching and reading all of the info on this thread trying to learn something.
Being part of the solution instead of the problem would be a more valuable approach than posting the negative comment you made.
They want to see the progress we make so that they can decide for themselves if they want to do it. This is a very difficult disease to eradicate as I am sure you know.
We are all looking for answers. The people posting their experiences on here are trying to contribute for the good of all. Maybe you can learn something,
Gael
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
It saddens me that folks consider this without full medical evaluation.
oxygenbabe has excellent points to consider. It is sad that she receives personal assaults simply for offering information.
This thread has become a clique wanting to keep outside cautions at bay.
For anyone new: Salt can have very serious consequences. Kidney function should first be checked but, even if fine on a test, kidney can be damaged from too much salt.
Heart attacks can occur, too.
That is not being negative. It is being realistic. For anyone considering this, be sure to read from a vast number of sources, not just from those suggesting the protocol.
Yes, some have seen help with this. Many have seen disaster, too. For anyone new, be sure to become as fully informed as possible. Even one day with too much salt can be very risky for some people. Anyone new to this deserves a full picture.
See what the American Heart Association has to say. Then check out the Kidney Foundation's advice. Finding out what they have to say is simply good research.
Deciding if you would be able to live a full life while also on kidney dialysis would also be a key question in case something should go wrong.
-
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Keebler,
Wanting to keep cautions at bay, is an untrue statement. We have posted pros and cons several times including pre-existing conditions and salt sensitivity in relation to the kidneys.
Deb posted Kurts blog on this as well. It's statements like "salt can have very serious consequences" without any info to back it up is annoying and not credible.
Or excess salt can cause heart attacks without any additional info.
We have also repeatedly stated that people check with their physicians and do their own research and make their own decisions.
We are not picking on oxy, in fact we have been constantly put in a position to have to defend ourselves.
It's just getting old. If you have concrete credible info post it! Let's please move on into healing,
A California company has figured out how to use two simple materials -- water and salt -- to create a solution that wipes out single-celled organisms, and which appears to speed healing of burns, wounds and diabetic ulcers. The solution looks, smells and tastes like water, but carries an ion imbalance that makes short work of bacteria, viruses and even hard-to-kill spores. Developed by Oculus Innovative Sciences in Petaluma, the super-oxygenated water is claimed to be as effective a disinfectant as chlorine bleach, but is harmless to people, animals and plants. If accidentally ingested by a child, the likely impact is a bad case of clean teeth.
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Here it talks about parasites and how we get them and what it can do to our bodies and how many people have them... More than anyone would think! As well natural herb combination that helps get rid of all of them..
Yet three herbs can rid you of over 100 types of parasites! And without so much as a headacheor nausea or any interference with any drug that you are already on!
They are natures gift to us. The herbs are:
Black Walnut Hulls (from the black walnut tree) Wormwood (from the Artemisia shrub) Common Cloves (from the clove tree)
These three herbs must be used together.
Something to think about in our therapies.
Garlic is a proven antimicrobial agent that is effective against many species of parasites.
Licorice root is a mild detoxifier, and ginger is known to protect the intestinal lining and has a wide range of actions against intestinal parasites.
Cinnamon has anti-fungal activity. While any one of these herbs may be beneficial, especially effective are supplements that contain a number of herbs known to promote cleansing.
[ 19. December 2008, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: DebAz ]
Posted by mynewname (Member # 11950) on :
WOW........
FWIW, I did this twice, based on my response to Albenza, an antiparasitc and made it up to 12g/day for a few months and nothing really happened except Kidney pain at the higher doses.
In hindsight I should have backed off when I felt the Kidney pain and consider myself lucky I didn't have an adverse reaction.
I was on the Salt/C list for a while and it's interesting that most of them are doing other tx. Why? Salt/C didn't work for most is my best guess. Last time I was there, they were on to MMS as the next big thing.
If this was going to be a breakthrough treatment we would have known it by now with all the people who have done it. I don't deny that it helps some to varying degrees but I sense it's less than 30% based on what I've read.
Not sure why there's so many posts on this thread, just felt the need to tell my experience and move on.
Chris
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Deb,
Really interesting and credible. Thank you for posting this for people to review. I have done these herbs in the past.
I also eat strong garlic, crushed ginger and lots of cinnamon on my yams. The salt/c is the only protocol I am doing right now.
Those herbs you mentioned are excellent antparasitics, especially if someone can't do the salt/c.
Thanks Again,
Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi M
Sorry it didn't work for you. The salt is pretty powerful and it will chase these parasites out. Maybe you just didn't see them mixed in with your bm.
Sammy who posts oh here said she has personaly been in touch with and e-mailed over 500 people who are on this protocol with great results.
They are in the beginning of the lymestrategies thread. This is not an easy protocol and some people choose not to stick with it.
Did the other antiparasitic you took work for you?
I had some kidney pain but it went away. Hey I am for whatever works to kick this disease. Sorry it didn't work for you and hope you are doing well,
gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hey there.. I am sorry this did not work for you too.. and I hope too you are well. I know there are many therapies out there and there is a basic kinda top 10 that seems to always be out there for people to choose from and try.. Maybe not quite 10.. But anyway.. On the site where doctors or recommending or discussing treatment options the Vitamin C/Salt protocol is becoming a main stream option. This is not just a few folks who are out there making up a thread for any particular reason and this does get a lot of attention and I have heard lots of success stories.. Many many many more than problems with the protocol.
I understand it has not worked or helped everyone . That goes for every single protocol out there.
We all try our best and do what is working and best for us. I am pretty new here and at this protocol and so far I have been impressed with it...
I am all for what works as well all are suffering and so are many others. Whatever works.. Is what I support for all.
And I respect everyones choices.. Even if it was something that did not work for me. It may work for you... Its all an individual choice and we are all different in enough ways that not all medicines or therapies work the same on every human.
So what gets me struck is the strong opinions from those that it has not worked for.. as if that means noone will benefit.
I hope others can be happy for anyone who benefits from anything >No matter what.
Warnings are fair and warnings are good.
Thats about it.
THANKS all.. And GOOD HEALTH ..and I hope you all find the parts of the puzzle that work for you.
For those now wanting to try this or it has not worked for you. Then I am sure you are moving on to something else and I hope you do find those things that help you most..
For those who do want to try it and it does work for you. Thats great too and I hope having others around who it is helping is a comfort to you. It helps me a lot
D
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
Thanks Deb so much for posting that. I was just looking at Black walnut hull,-wormwood etc.. yesterday. And had found several products---extracts, capsules, tinctures with everything you mentioned in them.
Except the garlic and ginger. I'm thinking about trying it. You can also make your own capsules. It's a really neat place. Fantastic Products
I put it in my favories. Hope you are having a smooth day
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Thank you
We have lots of supports and ideas here and i agree that .. the good news is we are getting better..
D
Posted by pippifern (Member # 11564) on :
My LLMD recommends NOT supplementing vit C due to the cells becoming acidic from it. He says to go ahead and ingest foods rich in Vit C, but to avoid supplements. I confess I don't know about the protocol you refer to here.
Posted by doc (Member # 14471) on :
i do belive someone is selling a ebook. just saying. doc
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Okay Doc,
No one on here is selling an e-book. I have never purchased the e-book Marc has for sale on lymestrategies. I have no problem with him selling an e-book either.
I am sure anyone who has a book published about Lyme disease is making money from the sales.
I understand from sammyi who posts on here that she has purchased it and it has been an invaluable guide for her doing the salt/c protocol.
The people who developed this protocol on www.lymephotos.com have nothing for sale here or anywhere else.
It would be very foolish for anyone with Lyme disease to think that only a "select" few are infected with these nematodes. These nematodes play a MAJOR part.
What speaks volumes to me is that the evidence(nematodes) is staring us right in the face and yet people just want to put their heads in the sand or go into denial. I don't get it. It just boggles my mind.
Burgdorfer found adult filarial worms in the ticks and as an aside found spirochetes.
This is a simple and brilliantly conceived protocol that has helped hundreds of people get rid of this horrible disease.
It has saved my life as well. The only reason I am here posting this info on this protocol is so other people have another option that is very, very effective against this disease.
I am almost free of this nightmare, so my intentions are only to help, nothing more, nothing less. I'm just saying,
Gael
Posted by stuman455 (Member # 17823) on :
Keep the posts coming Deb. I'm always checking in on this thread. Pretty interesting. Hope you get better from this protocol. I guess you'll never know if ya let all the criticism stop you. Stick with it....
Stuman455
Posted by FancyRatFan (Member # 3088) on :
stuman455,
Debs around. I don't know if you know but there is another thread about salt/C about sharing data with people who are doing the protocol
It's usually on the first page of medical questions. You can see her posting her progress there.
We are all sharing as we move along in the therapy and there is a few of us that started on the same week or so. I get some PMS from a few who do not feel they want to post and I kinda do not blame them.
I am glad to hear that there are those watching and maybe it can help others in some way.. Good or Bad .. Pros or cons.. Whichever.
I am doing well.. And honestly a little afraid to make the bold statments that I might feel like sometimes because I do like to see some actual blocks of time go by before I make a statement of full ongoing "progress" that I can track to a therapy.
I will say I am making very small or near no changes in other things I do or take so I know how this therapy is working.
I am feeling so much better still with insomnia and with energy when I wake up and that has been a HUGE improvement. I am not sure why this is making that change for me and some say the salt is helping the adreanals in a way that is positive.
i will take that .. Even if it does not so the more that some claim.
Sleep is a huge deal and always has been so much of an issue for me. And not just sleep but feeling so SICK when I wake up as if the infection crept up upon me during the time I slept.
I do not get that near as much.. And I am getting sleepy at night and can feel more relaxed at night and able to lay there and even if I do not fall right asleep I do not have the same insomnia fatigue type of issues.
There are other things and I listed them on the other forum and when more time goes by with these positives that stay that way or grow i will be continuing to write them
I am taking this slower than I wanted to.. To be honest.. I do like to get a bit aggressive sometimes but have learned as well as others that if you push therapies too fast and hard you will herx badly and that not only feels bad it can hurt more than help when you put that burden on so hard.
It is a balancing act for me. Even when I feel a herx coming on I will back down on things to let my body clear it out.
I am not for the pushing through it not matter how bad you feel. I used to do that.. ANd i suffered many years without any marked progress..
I am a true beliver in letting your body talk to you and listening and as well giving it a break and giving it time to detox or explell the things we keep killing off with these therapies as we are given the signal to do so.
That has built the strength and improvements I have seen. It takes a lot of patience but as well that is where I have settled with abx or anything I might use that is there to kill off stuff.
That has been a huge key for me.
There is a thread posted that I also and others have posted an article that says exactly what I am but by a doctor who wants to say that the whole Herx concept and the concept of being told to just push through it and wait for getting to the other side is backwards and not healthy or good.
Anyway.. THANKS for listening. Thanks for keeping and eye on me.. And please post and converse any time. It helps a lot to not only have support but to know there are people watching and learning.
D
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Stuman..
thanks for the support and it helps knowing people are there and as well tell me things like that.
Things at time do affect me..i am normal and human and sick. And at times it can be hard ... to keep going.. IN many ways.
Would love to hear more about you and what your doing for therapy and what your fighting and your story..
Let us know. k
THANKS D
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
I started a poll and asked people about how they felt about the Salt C protocol. Positive or negative. Here are some responses.
I for one am very happy with this protocol. I do not use it alone, though. I use silver and MMS with it to get the best results. But it definitely is an effective treatment for lyme without side effects (for me anyway).
Susan
I'm very happy I tried i
Renate
I just ordered the MMS two days ago and I am SO excited to try it. I'd never heard of it before this group. For everyone who participates in this group GOD BLESS YOU!!!!
Steve
I'm happy but, of course, happiness is just a concept... the education/guidance has helped the most, no doubt the protocols inclusiveness of intellectual dexterity.
Shep
The salt/c protocol is very effective. I've had fms/lyme for over 50 years. My first encounter with salt was with another protocol for fms (Recuperation) using a sodium product that made me deathly ill. At that time I didn't know that I had LD nor did I have knowledge about the salt/lyme die-off effect that made me so deathly ill. I have now been doing salt/c "on and off" for approximately 2Ω yrs along with a number of other protocols that I had been previously doing plus mms that I also added. The salt/c protocol is one of the best�.
When one starts a protocol that will prove helpful, there is often a period of time when one will feel much worse. It is therefore easy for many to give it up as not working if they feel worse or do not find immediate relief. The same can be said of salt/c. Therefore, when someone reports that salt/c didn't work for them (excluding any serious reaction) after only a few weeks or months, that is not a realistic expectation. If someone has been on it for a year or more, that is a more credible time period, and they probably know what they are talking about.
Diane
It's really helped me - very glad I've tried it.
Sharon
i tried it for a couple of weeks, but saw no benefit. i had a 'side- effect', though. when i laid down to goto sleep i had incredibly uncomfortable pressure around my heart/chest. i did see real results with both the marshall protocol and using a doug coil rife machine. just my 2 cents!
Tyler
I'm happy I tried Salt/C even though I'm not cured. I'm a lot better off than I believe I would be if I hadn't done Salt/C.
Greg
My wife tried and its helped her tremendously. Its her main treatment now
Scott
And in my opinion there is NO possible way to see if a protocol is working with ONLY two weeks on it ! This is a LONG haul ! Try it for four - six months and see ..... bottom line is you have to know the science behind it and truely believe in the protocol so you can make it thru the tough parts and even the boring parts when it seems nothing is happening....it usually is though....
Susan in WV
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Thanks for posting this Deb. Great to see others input.
It is the only protocol I am on right now and after 2 1/2yrs it is really knocking out these infections.
Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Deb,
Just wondering where the poll you took is from?
Thank,
Gael
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Hi.. I was browsing the Lymenet library.
I found this long post about Salt C and some people who were documenting kinda like we are as they go along.
Does it matter if doses are taken close to food or not?
And is it ok to take the salt per teaspoon, and the vit c in capsule form?
Posted by DebAz (Member # 18039) on :
Here is a statement from the lymestratagies site. ..... And that is how I do it as well. Deb
It's best on an empty stomach with lots of water, but if you've just eaten and it is time for a dose, don't let that stop you from taking it. Better to dose regularly, than miss doses because you are trying to time it for empty stomach.
Also, some people with sensitive stomachs have taken their doses with food if they are having problems keeping it down.
Edie
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Hi Deb,
The pictures of parasites are a good referral. I have seen some of those myself. I wonder if the checkered looking ones have been identified?
I have seen those on the www.lymephotos.com site as well. Thanks for posting that,
This is an interesting article and the giving patients tsps of salt every day to take caught my eye.
CONFERENCE HIGHLIGHT
An Old Treatment Renewed?
Tae Park. Comprehensive treatments with IVIG for CFS (poster).
Dr. Park gave one gram of IV gamma globulin in 500 cc of normal saline infused over 1 hour once a week to 50 CFS patients for six months, none of whom were working at the time.
He also monitored their sleep, prescribing Klonopin and/or Prozac (10-20 mg.) if needed, and their activity levels and diet, accentuating organic foods and avoiding bread, canned foods, chocolate, MSG, aspartame and hot pepper.
His patients were instructed to drink 2-3 liters of water a day with 2-3 teaspoons of salt, and walk no more than I hour a day.
His patients did very well; most returned to work or school, Karposky scores rose from the 40's to the 80's or 90's and their cognition improved.
Importantly, problems with sleep apnea improved greatly. Some of the younger patients essentially recovered in one to two months. Three to five years later Dr. Park said these patients still maintained their near complete recovery.
A Talk With Dr. Park - In his poster Dr. Park noted several IV gamma globulin trials that have failed in the past. I asked him in an e-mail why he thought his trial has worked while others had failed.
He said that he believes that CFS physicians and their patients underestimate how important it is to have a toxic free environment.
He believes that an increasingly toxic environment is a main contributor to CFS; that it is the toxins we are exposed to in our air, foods and water that disrupt our immune systems allowing latent virus reactivation. He prohibits his patients from living in newly built houses. He stated he often sees enlarged livers (and noted, to his surprise, that few physicians in the U.S. know how to `palpate' livers.)
Gamma globulin is the most important agent he has to treat central nervous system inflammation. He notes that many of his CFS patients present with stroke-like or Parkinson's-like symptoms and sleep apnea even after using CPAP and all of them show improvement with intravenous gamma globulin.
Three to six months of IV gamma globulin has also been effective in improving the low renal blood flows noted in Dr. Park's poster (in the IACFS I: Cardiovascular and Exercise Studies click here). As described in that poster Dr. Park believes that CFS is a disease characterized by systemic microvascular inflammation.
Dr. Park runs the CFS Clinic of South Korea in Seoul.
Click here to go to PART V: THE ECONOMIC COSTS, DEFINING CFS, ME AND CFS, BEH
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Good article Deb,
I had IVIG for 2 yrs(once a month) and it really didn't do much. I can't help but think that Dr. Park is underestimating the efficacy of the salt which is a natural bacteriocide.
It would be interesting to see the outcome if he followed the same protocol eliminating the Gamma Globulin and just using the salt.
Sounds like a smart doctor though. I have heard that Asian people use salt for healing. Thanks, Gael
Posted by lnc2000 (Member # 18440) on :
GLM, Thanks for all the great info. I'd been on the protocol for almost 2 months now with 3g dose and 2x/d, and I had felt much better since.
Angelica, PLEASE, DO NOT post info. that you can't back them up, such as " my llmd told me someone died from S/C". I got really freaked out when I first saw your thread. Your personal opinion does not help any of us here, we're all in the Lyme situation and what we need to know is from true experienced, NOT personal opinion.
Posted by hcconn22 (Member # 5263) on :
Lyme Takes multiple forms and is a very complex bacteria.
Salt and Vit C will never touch the extercellular or cystic forms of Lyme. Intercellular is questionable too.
Does this mean that a Salt and C would cure syphilis and other similar bacteria- or does it only work on Lyme?.
I spoke to two ILADS past presidents about this. They said if it was only that simple. Are we now going to say that they don't know Lyme better than all on this board.
Do as you like but please be careful.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Inc2000,
That is terrific. So glad it is helping you. Have you seen any results similar to the lymephotos?
If you need any more info or help, please let me know or feel free to pm me,
Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
hcconn22,
I personally think experience is the best teacher. Salt is a broad spectrum antibiotic. Many people have gone into remission from this protocol.
I am on my way to doing the same. It also kills the cyst form as seen on www.lymephotos.com I have seen these also.
Salt works on a deep intracellular level, kinda like peeling an onion. If it didn't kill the spirochetes, how would you explain people getting well on this protocol?
I don't understand why folks make statements that aren't backed up by facts.
Gael
Posted by lnc2000 (Member # 18440) on :
Hi, After I start Salt?c for two weeks, I did get a
mild diarrhea and after that I feel funny on face
and body like flies or mosquitos around but when
i looked i don't see it...I thought as bacteria
are running from the salt.
Another thing is I got weird red streaks (short
streak)under the skin of my belly, it clearly on
belly and spread lightly upward toward chest. I
don't know what it is, thought it's the die-off,
my doc also can't tell.
These only appear after I started the Salt/C, didn't see it when i was on Doxy or Amox.
I also have a question if anybody can tell me what it is:
3 days ago, I started the Biaxin/Plaquinel/Omnicef. On
the 2nd day, I got a couple dark, watery,little
bloody diarrhea, blister on lower lip, little
bumps under toungue and pain/ache all over my
body. I don't know if it's herxing or side
affect of the meds.
I was better, energizer, and
less severe symptoms before these meds, these
symptoms are worsen after i start the
Biaxin/plaquinel/Omnicef.
Have anyone experienced this, i'm so confused if
i should stop or continue the med.
My doctor can't be reach until Monday, so I have
no idea what it is. Thanks all for help.
Posted by lnc2000 (Member # 18440) on :
Hi Lymestop,
In October,I was on 2 weeks of Doxy, then 3 weeks of Amox, all was by Infectiuos Disease Dr.. then she stop treating me after that.
Started Salt/C in December because i don't have anymore abx as I couldn't find a LLMD that take insurance.
Did Salt/C for about 10 weeks and stopped.
Went on Biaxin/Plaquinel/Omnicef 5 days ago, and starting to feel all worsen symptoms as mentioned in last thread, especially black, watery diarr...
I had no idea if they are meds side effect or herxing or something else, but i felt worse than before taking Biaxin/Plag/Omni.
Thanks
Posted by lnc2000 (Member # 18440) on :
I meant to say, I felt worse after taking Biaxin/Plaquinel/Omnicef
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
I DO I DO. LOL. My sister works for a Vet. and the best treatment for a dog who has been bitten by a Copperhead is Salt Cured Bacon. It pulls the poisons to the bowels and renders them harmless. I have seen it work. I know it works. The same princlple applies to us when we kill off the bugs they release toxins and the salt and vitamin C pulls it to the bowels. Not a miracle just common sense.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Good Analogy Pinelady.
Another analogy I like to use is the principal of soaking ones finger in salt water to pull the infection out.
I picture my body as working on the same principal. The salt just draws out the infections and brings them to the surface and then they are emptied out of the colon. It works!!
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Well anyway.. see you guys and I have read further and deeper and I found the spot you told me about that says start with 1 gram of each![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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