I have tested negative or within normal range on so many things.
My C4a was over 51,000. Normal is about 2800.
This, and a positive test for erlichia are the only objective evidence of infection.
I have a clinical diagnosis of lyme, babs, and possibly bart.
I am probably placing too much importance on this test result, but I'm trying to figure out how sick I am or how long I've been sick.
What are your thoughts, please?
Thank you.
[ 02-06-2009, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: carly ]
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Let's pretend.
I like this game.
There is a great big dump truck filled to the top with yellow grapefruits.
Also in it, is a handful of pineapple tidbits scattered throughout.
Now.. the Prince (the dump truck driver) comes over to the dump truck and says...
"I've got to find the pineapple!"
Before he can find the pineapple he will have to get some of the grapefruit out of there or he won't be able to see it.
So he calls the Mayor of the City (Bruce Springstein) and has him come over to help get the grapefruit out of his way.
(Are you still reading this? If so, it shows how desperate you are to have to listen to ME- ha!)
Anyhow.. they start tossing some of the grapefruit out of the dump truck... and as the number of grapefruit gets smaller...
RIGHT!
They start finding the pineapple tidbits! My, my, you are a smart one!
Ok.
Now.. if your body is the dump truck... and the grapefruits are the Ehrlichia ...
Then the Lyme, Babs and Bart are the pinapple tid-bits.
You may have to lessen the load of Ehrlichia before you can find the other organisms.
May I suggest repeated testing (the Mayor can help) after you've addressed some of these infections.
My bet is you'll start seeing evidence of them later down the road.
As for the C4a test....
It's telling you that your dump truck is full of fruit salad!
And they all lived happily ever after.
Hope that helps!
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Or did you want the scientific explanation?
If so, it's gonna cost you, because I'd have to wrack my brain when I am too tired to think!
Posted by carly (Member # 14810) on :
Tincup, I like THAT explanation!
You must be a teacher.
I am curious, though.
I haven't seen a c4a level that high.
(I never heard of it before today, but I've looked into it.)
I wonder if that indicates anything about duration of infection. Has my dump truck been filling up with fruit for more years than I thought?
OR
If there is a possibility that the infection got worse with improper treatment (short term oral & IV abx) and this made that dump truck get so full?
OR
I won't ever find out, the number will just go down with proper treatment.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Me tinks you have a bunch of HEAVY juicy grapefruits in there.
One month with that many infections is a lot. A few months and you are pretty loaded down.
A year or more... well if you were walking down the highway.... you'd probably be made to pull over in the truck weighing station even if you didn't have the truck with you!
I know it is hard to not know the answers.. but I don't know your symptoms or for how long you've been sick, so it is hard to comment.
And even if I did know.. I'm not sure I could make a really educated guess.
But if I were you.. I wouldn't hesitate getting your oil checked every time you pass by an old home filler-up a keep on a trucking cafe.
If you do... the numbers will come more into balance.
Some folks watch their numbers fall as treatment is continued.
But then I always wondered..
Don't they, like me, have anything better to do on a Friday night?
The numbers being that high are a concern. But many of us also have VERY high numbers on that test.
I figured when I saw my numbers I'd drop dead immediately because I must be REALLY sick.
But I am still here, on the side of the road, trying to sell a glass of grapefruit juice to anyone that passes by.
Sales aren't going so well.. so I thought I'd pack up that juice and go dump it in Wormser's britches.
That would accomplish two things.
I'd probably be remembered...
And ..
I'd have something to do on a Friday night.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
PS...
I wasn't a teacher.
I'm just nuts.
But thanks for assuming the better of the two choices.
You're so sweet!
Posted by carly (Member # 14810) on :
Oh, Tincup. You make me laugh!
Is it Friday night? I hadn't noticed.
Thank you so much for your humor and for helping to ease my troubled mind.
I just want someting to tell me where and when this started, because I can only guess.
I know it's not realistic, though.
Thanks!!
Carly
Posted by asus (Member # 13881) on :
Mold issues?
Posted by elle (Member # 7721) on :
To stay in line with tincup . . . your dump truck has fat grapefruit in it.
C4 is a indication of inflammation (infection, disease processes can cause inflammation)
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
elle said.. "your dump truck has fat grapefruit in it."
So who needs the IDSA when we have it all figured out?
We should write our OWN guidelines!
Posted by lou (Member # 81) on :
Here is the abstract for an article on this subject. When I first read it, I thought it didn't fit my picture because I have neurolyme and "high" C4a. But since then people have been posting about incredibly high C4a numbers, so maybe my idea of high was not high enough, and they are correct. Wish we could read the full article to see how they deal with people having both arthritic and neuro symptoms.
-----------------------------------------
Scand J Immunol. 2009 Jan;69(1):64-9.
Complement split products c3a and c4a in chronic lyme disease. Stricker RB, Savely VR, Motanya NC, Giclas PC.
International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society, Bethesda, MD, USA.
Complement split products C3a and C4a are reportedly elevated in patients with acute Lyme disease. We have now examined these immunologic markers in patients with chronic Lyme disease compared to appropriate disease controls. The study population consisted of 29 healthy controls, 445 patients with chronic Lyme disease, 11 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) and six patients with AIDS. The Lyme disease patients were divided according to predominant musculoskeletal symptoms (324 patients) or predominant neurologic symptoms (121 patients). C3a and C4a levels were measured by radioimmunoassay. All patients with chronic Lyme disease and AIDS had normal C3a levels compared to controls, whereas patients with SLE had significantly increased levels of this marker. Patients with predominant musculoskeletal symptoms of Lyme disease and AIDS patients had significantly increased levels of C4a compared to either controls, patients with predominant neurologic symptoms of Lyme disease or SLE patients. Response to antibiotic therapy in chronic Lyme disease was associated with a significant decrease in the C4a level, whereas lack of response was associated with a significant increase in this marker. In contrast, AIDS patients had persistently increased C4a levels despite antiretroviral therapy. Lyme patients with positive single-photon emission computed tomographic (SPECT) scans had significantly lower C4a levels compared to Lyme patients with normal SPECT scan results. Patients with predominant musculoskeletal symptoms of Lyme disease have normal C3a and increased C4a levels. This pattern differs from the increase in both markers seen in acute Lyme disease, and C4a changes correlate with the response to therapy in chronic Lyme disease. C4a appears to be a valuable immunologic marker in patients with persistent symptoms of Lyme disease.
PMID: 19140878 [PubMed - in process]
Posted by Sarah182 (Member # 15774) on :
carly, My c4a was almost 50,000. I have no idea how long I've had lyme..only been sick for just over a year. My doc is now testing me for mold issues. My number did drop in half after about 4 months of treatment. I'd like to know more answers about this test too. My LLMD told me mine is one of the highest he'd seen all year. You're the only one I've come across that has numbers as high as mine!!
Posted by carly (Member # 14810) on :
Hi all,
Thanks for the responses. I've been without a computer for the last couple of days so I wasn't keeping an eye on this thread the way I wanted to.
Asus, mold isn't an issue for me --I'm fairly confident of that. I moved last year, and had both houses inspected for mold as part of the sale / purchase. There was none in either.
That has me covered for the past 10 years.
Sarah, it's encouraging that your numbers came down so drastically.
I, too would like to know if there is anything that is indicated by such high numbers.
Or, perhaps the question is: Is it known what such high numbers indicate, other than the presence of infection / inflammation?
The article Lou cites would support the fact the chronic lyme is present and that it has responded well to treatment.
Lou, I've always thought my symptoms were mainly arthritic, but I'm finding out lately that I have significant neurological involement.
It's like another piece in this lyme puzzle that doesn't really fit quite right.
Elle,
...As for symptoms...and grapefruits... Some of these heavy, juicy grapefruits have been removed from my dumptruck, and I can smell the pineapple.
In other words... Now that I've been treating the ehrlichia, symptoms of babs have been popping up "out of nowhere". I wouldn't have guessed that one--until now, that is.
Tincup said...
quote:
I wasn't a teacher.
I'm just nuts.
quote:
Well, I'm not a teacher, either!!
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Excuse me? HELLO??? Anybody home upstairs little girl?
I think you must have broken your fingers or you just have a really bad Lyme brain today.
???
You said... "Tincup said... I wasn't a teacher. I'm just nuts."
Then YOU said... "Well, I'm not a teacher, either!!"
NOW! As I stand here with my hands on my hips giving you that glare... I must say....
Did you want to finish that last line missy... or will I have to finish it for you?
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