I was just curious out there if anyone knows if it is still safe to get tattoos with Lyme.
I know most places throw needles out after using them it's just the concern that what if the artist doesn't?
I know it may sound like an idiotic question, but I was just curious...
I read the post about donating blood while have Lyme and Co's and I would never...
Just thought I would throw this out there since I love tattoos and haven't gotten one since this disease.
Thanks again!
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
Any tattoo parlour worth it's salt these days will follow stringent sterilization protocols (autoclave, single-use needles etc).
Do not be afraid to ask questions, if you are concerned. If they are legit, they won't mind.
I have 6 tattoos and got the last 2 since my lyme dx.
Every time I have finished an ink session, my artist makes a point of destroying the needle in front of me.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Lol!! Do you tell him you have Lyme??? I was concerned, but you eased my mind!
I have been wanting to get a portrait done of my son, but was too afraid to tell the guy,"hey man I have Lyme and a bunch of other "Bugs"!
Thanks for your reply!
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
My artist also happens to be a good friend from college days, so yeah, he is aware of my illness...
But all the times I have gotten ink, not just since I've been sick, I have watched the needle get destroyed after the session.
It seems to be something that many legit artists do to show they follow sterile practises.
Posted by AnnaL (Member # 18464) on :
Totally safe to get tats with Lyme. As always, go to a reputable shop. They will destroy the needles and follow strict safety protocols.
The only thing regarding tats and piercings and Lyme would be to avoid ear piercings done with piercing guns. They are not as sterile. Even for just ear piercing, go to a proper piercing shop and have it done with a needle--which will then be destroyed with any other biowaste.
-AnnaL (one tattoo and one piercing post-Lyme, with plans for many more)
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
I also would like to say something about my last 2 tats: it was a very healing thing for me to do.
Since becoming ill, my disease has dominated my thoughts and my days.
I decided to go and do something that I had already planned to do before I got sick: get my 1stborn's name tattooed on my forearm.
It made me feel so good and happy, I got my twins' names tattooed on the other arm 5 months later.
It's always nice to do something that's just for you, that you would have wanted to do anyways, even if you weren't sick.
Posted by Leelee (Member # 19112) on :
quote: The only thing regarding tats and piercings and Lyme would be to avoid ear piercings done with piercing guns. They are not as sterile. Even for just ear piercing, go to a proper piercing shop and have it done with a needle--which will then be destroyed with any other biowaste.
I was just going to ask about ear piercing after I read the original tattoo post. I don't have any tattoos, but I do have my ears pierced.
Is the piercing gun the thing where they put the earrings in the gizmo and sort of staple it to your ear?
I wonder about acupuncture also. A long time ago when my symptoms first showed up I was in so much pain that I tried acupuncture for a few months. (It didn't help, much as I wanted it to.)
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
Wouldn't tattooing cause some sort of immune challenge?
Is this okay in people already immune challenged?
Might it not add to the load?
Posted by hoot (Member # 19281) on :
I was thinking about the immune challenge as well not to mention the metals and other toxins contained in the dye. I don't have lyme but I know I would react to the dyes. I react to red 40 and other colors.
I have heard that the easiest way to get Hepatitis C is to get a tattoo. They may not re-use the needles, but do they use fresh ink on every person??? If not, the ink can be a reservoir for all types of nasties!
Just be careful! Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
As far as I'm concerned, it is just being stuck by tiny needles...
As a Lyme patient, I've been stuck by needles many, many times anyways (blood draws, IVs, EMGs, B12 shots).
My last 2 tats healed up within a week, the same amount of time the others took. I figure if it compromised my immune system, healing would have been difficult. It wasn't.
Posted by LisaS (Member # 10581) on :
I have tats and piercings. My LLMD said it wasn't a problem. All were gotten after having lyme.
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
I think with all the stuff your immune system is dealing with that getting a tattoo is not a good idea. You are introducing foreign substances into
your body, whichever way you look at it. I think it is a bad idea no matter how hygienic the place is. Do you know what is in those inks and dyes. I don't but I doubt they are things that normally occur in the human body and they probably contain
metals, possibly lead (red dyes contain cadmium) and many dyes are suspected carcinogens. These are all substances a sick body does not need.
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
All of mine are done in black ink, which is the safest and most biologically inert colour.
I would never tell anyone else to go out and get all tatted up.
Kreynolds had a question. I had a positive experience and am sharing it.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
I have to agree with zombie_mummy... all my tatts are in black and grey... I have 8 big ones.
I find getting a tattoo done very relaxing believe it or not.
I also had my ear, eyebrow,lip, and tongue pierced.
This was all before the disease....
I think there are people out there that hate them and say they are bad because they are unsterile, but as you can see from above most places are sterile.
I love tattoos and won't stop getting them... If this disease is gonna kill me, then I'd rather leave happy and tatted up!!!
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
There is a big difference doing it pre lyme. Right now your immune system is working 24/7. You are on
a ton of medications and your system is overloaded and your liver is stressed. Why introduce anything
foreign into your system at this time?
NOT SMART AT ALL.
Don't be so sure how sterile all these places are. Most may be but there will always be those who will cut corners.
Posted by AnnaL (Member # 18464) on :
To each her own, of course, but I also found getting my tattoo to be a wonderful experience.
It felt like claiming part of my body back--and the endorphin kick made me feel better than anything! And I did not notice any worsening of symptoms post-tattoo.
Also, for Leelee, yes, a piercing gun is that "staple" kind of thing. Like you'd see at the mall or whatever.
If you want your ears pierced, I recommend going to a piercing parlor and having them do it.
It may seem a little intimidating, since most of the employees will have crazy piercings, but a good shop will make you feel comfortable and respected.
And then they'll pierce your ears the "old-fashioned" way, by poking a needle through the ear and fitting the stud in place.
The needles are sterile (usually they open the pack while you are watching) and are disposed of afterwards.
This method of piercing is much preferred to the piercing-gun-at-the-mall. The guns hold germs more, and you're more likely to get an infected piercing.
As always, go to a reputable shop. See who is voted "best of" in your town, or ask people you see with tats or piecings you admire.
And feel free to ask for a tour of the shop and a full explanation of their safety protocols. Any reputable artist will be happy to explain it all in detail.
-AnnaL (who is planning to get a labret piercing in the near future)
Posted by swachsler (Member # 18155) on :
I just want to say:
I love my tattoo! I am getting vicarious ink joy reading this. *sigh*
I loved my piercings, too, but I'm a bad healer. Have a big keloid on the cartilage of one ear from a piercing there. I had to let them all close over except the ones in my lobes (5 on the left, 2 on the right).
I got my tat before MCS - black outlined snake with purple and green banding looped around a women's symbol. She encircles my calf.
I planned to get more, but then MCS hit, and I'm afraid of introducing anything I might be sensitive to into my body.
Yes, the endorphins are fab. I say, Kreynolds, go get yer tat and come back and tell us all about it. *grin*
-Sharon
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
i have my next three or four tattoos meticulously planned out, but personally i'm too freaked out to get them done now that i know i have lyme. i agree it adds to the total body burden -- it's an injury, a trauma the body needs to heal from. not to mention whatever is in the dyes, heavy metals and god knows what else. it makes me sad because i would love to get more tattoos (i have four from my pre-lyme days).
Posted by kim812 (Member # 17644) on :
I have two tattoo's since becoming sick with Lyme. I had no problems with either one. I will say though that since I have adrenal insufficiency it kind of wiped me out afterwards.
I am going to get another one this summer..I will go to the same shop since I know they are clean, use disposable needles and ink.
Posted by lymeric (Member # 16465) on :
IMHO, I can't counsel getting any non-medical tattoos. (Certain alternative medicines give small tattoos for specific medical conditions.) Just one tattoo lowers your life expectancy by up to 20 years.
Rather than rework, I copy something I wrote on tats to one of my students in Iraq - lyme survivior/success story, no further problems 20 years after initial short-term treatment - thinking about getting one: (Edited for national security reasons!)
Did you know any tattoo or piercing location should be approved by an energy field specialist? People seriously mess up their fields all the time.
Every time we get a scar what's called field interference may be generated. Certain body modifications are sometimes introduced for health reasons. (Chinese medicinal tattoos, for example.) But this is rare.
Not messing with energy fields, chakras, and meridians is one reason Buddhism proscribes against any, especially unnecessary, body invasive procedure.
An hour in the tattoo parlor can perhaps leave you with lifetime of depression or misdiagnosed illness, for example.
Or it could mess you up just a little bit and you get older and things just don't seem as happy as when you were younger.
And this may be treated inappropriately by a medical community that, along with the patient him/herself, never even comes close to understanding that it may be because a hole was punched and forever messed up or short circuited an important body point.
Tattooing/piercing may through field interference increase a tendency towards violence and anger. Which may be desirable for some. Especially in prison, where in-house tattoos are big.
Is it a coincidence that the most violent known societies have the highest number of....... tattoos and piercings. These indigenous tribes have murder rates of 40% and more. They haven't reached a stage of development where they understand field concept as well as their less rural cousins, in Asia for instance.
That all being said, should you decide to continue remember, of course, to buy your own set of new needles. Most everybody I know does this.
But what a he.. of a lot of people forget is to buy your own ink wells. Crucial. Everybody has clean needles, but many tattoo artists use the wells for multiple people. Be sure about this.
Well, I guess I know a lot about this for a guy with one tattoo. Maybe that's why..... You won't catch me getting another, (if possible) given everything I just pointed out.
I'm one of the................ I don't want to take the chance of jeopardizing.............. I have though body modification.............
I don't know for sure if body mod would change my skills negatively. (Might make them better, but in the holistic concept this could be like permanent steroids with long-term bad effects.) I wouldn't want to chance it.
I certainly would consult a field specialist before getting anything. What I can say is that among my crew, the more tatts, the more the guy and his life seems/ed a mess.
Most came from single parent homes and/or had attention issues. I also don't think I want any more questionably toxic chemicals and certainly heavy metals (the ink) embedded into my body.
Ever notice an abundance of old people with tattoos? There is a strong school of thought that believes tattoos slowly poison you. One of the worst things may be getting tatts re-inked after many years.
I understand Tatts are huge right now. Especially with your age group. Good Luck!
My best advice to anyone here with chronic lyme & co is consider removing all tattoos and especially non-traditional piercings. (However, tattoo removal is scar producing in its own right, so best to consult the aforementioned field specialist. It may be better to leave certain tats.)
Sorry if some reading can't accept what I've said here. Gonna have to take the "Jack" amendment. (You can't handle the ....!) Wonder how many LLMDs are conversant with above?
[ 03-21-2009, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: lymeric ]
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
"I also don't think I want any more questionably toxic chemicals and certainly heavy metals (the ink) embedded into my body. "
Most of us already have heavy metal toxicity and don't even know it, we certainly don't need more. It's just plain old common sense that if
your fighting off all these pathogens the last thing your immune system needs is to have foreign substances introduced into it. Sure you may not
notice a difference, but it's wrecking havoc on your system and interfering with your body's ability to fight of Lyme and co's. Does your
body really need an extra toxic burden to handle?
And if they are not using new unopened ink just for you then it doesn't matter if you have a sterile needle as that bottle is already
contaminated from having needles that went into other people's skin and has been dipped back into the ink.
Anyway you look at it NOT A GOOD IDEA. And, that ink from the tattoo thru the years leaches toxins into your system slowly messing with your health.
Posted by lymemomtooo (Member # 5396) on :
I really appreciate this post. My 22 year old lymie has many piercings and tattoos. I am really afraid of each new one wondering if and when it will be the one that might be too much..
We spent over $3000 trying to save two teeth from a piercing in her lower lip. It rubbed and inflamed two bottom middle teeth and they lost almost all of their bone. Surgeries and much grafting later, we have saved them and damn if she didnt' just get it repierced and said that this stud would not cause a problem.
No not to her because she knows we will spend a fotune we don't have to try to save them again.
With each tattoo, I cry and try to explain some of what Lymeric has said. I had read an article on elec conduction thru the layers of the skin and how it can interfere with nerve signals if damaged. I get a shrug. And this is a brain damaged lymie, so why take any more chances?
Everyone deserves to be able to make up their own mind but it is also good to know the pros and cons. lymemomtooo
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Wow a lot of mixed answers....
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Do you know how many people can't clear Lyme because of heavy metal toxicity? Heavy metal toxicity causes neurological damage
I think people with Lyme have enough neurological challenges.
Read about what's in tattoo ink and wonder why you would want it in your body.
Girl. I did the same thing I was on IV's and got a dove tattoo to help me through the worst of it.
I would say it's totally safe b/c it was for me and I checked with both my doctors AND the tattoo artist beforehand.
ENJOY Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Not sure I believe what most doctors say. Most have limited knowledge in areas of this nature. They give out drugs, just as poisonous. In our case we need them, but in many cases they give them out when the are not warranted.
You have no way of knowing how your immune system reacted to it, how much more of a burden it put on it.
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
Any Lymie, no matter how strong or functional, has a very serious illness. Most of us who are completely disabled now were once very strong too. In my opinion it's not a good idea to add to the burden. But people will do what they do. When I was strong I did many things that, looking back, were foolish. Sure they were fun as hell, and I'm glad I did them, but I have little doubt they added, in some way, to my decline.
On the other hand, the life of a Lymie sucks completely -- and if something can bring one a bit of joy ... well, then, maybe that's not so bad.
So it comes down to: risk/reward?
Just think about it.
Posted by LisaS (Member # 10581) on :
Look it, with lyme everything changes. But you have to keep living. Ive read a lot of books on karma and chakras and never read anything about tattoos. I even studied Buddhism, but maybe i missed that chapter. Usually spiritualism teaches that your spirit heals your body. Not that your body controls the spirit.
My point is, with lyme you are supposed to change EVERYTHING. You can't eat what you want, be in the sun as long as you want, stand as long as you want, work a normal job, can't even have a darn beer if I want cuz I get so sick. But you HAVE to keep living. You can't just lay in bed afraid of everything. We are exposed to different bacteria, toxins, electromagnetic fields... everyday all the time, whether we like it or not. We can't hide from everything.
Besides didn't you ever hear of the mom who wouldn't let her kids play outside for fear that they'd get germs? When those kids went to school they had no antibodies built up to fight infections and became sick with every bug they were exposed to.
If ya want a tat, get one, if ya don't then don't. Simple.
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kreynolds: Wow a lot of mixed answers....
Kreynolds, ultimately the decision is yours to make.
It sounds like you are a big boy/girl and, if you've already got 8 tattoos, you have a very good idea of what is involved, your healing time, etc.
We have no idea how sick you are, how your immune system is functioning, whether or not you are chemically sensitive, etc.
Talk to your LLMD. Discuss your concerns about safety/sterility with your prospective tattoo artist. Weigh the pros/cons and make an educated decision.
I wish you the best of luck on your healing journey.
Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
This is a very good discusion.
I would be concerned as well with putting more toxins in my already burdened body. I just found out I am loaded with heavy metals which will take awhile to get rid of, besides adding a tat.
I would encourage a new mind set with this for those who are thinking of another tat...
Try to do something else that makes you happy, other than an identifying or symbolic mark.
It's all about a mind set and how you feel about yourself and your situation. and I"ve also learned that in order to truely heal, we need to release emotional bonds, either things we know are hurts or burdens or even those that are subc onsious. I think the Tatoos fall into this somehow, and for many the need cannot be articulated, many are drawn to it for various reasons. Whether for individuality, for artistic beauty, or to make a statement...there are all valid reason...but with major consequences to your life if you have lyme.
Tatoos as well as the metals hold onto the lyme and other pathogens in our bodies.This is known to ND's and those that practice ART and energetic muscle testing. In other countries this is known in the medical communities, but in the USA, there is no good education or testing in general related to lyme and metals. This is coming in the future.
We all need a way to be free of things the hold us down pshcyologiclly and physically.
Unfortuanately , we lymies do need to personally challenge ourselves with new behaviors. Healing takes work and modification.
Ask yourself, do you really need this outward symbol to be happy. If this is the only thing that will make you happy at the time, you must evaluate why? "Do it if it feels good at the moment" approach is death to us lymies.
Thinking about this , may open you up to finding out the deep things that may be holding back your healing...no one can tell you this, only being open and honest with yourself will help you. If you want it.
just a thought to ponder.
Just a thought for healing.
LP
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
LymeParfait, you have the most sensible perspective on this issue. It's not about tattoos, it's about caring for your body and understanding how doing
things to it effects healing. I spent a huge amount of time and money removing my mercury amalgams and chelating out heavy metals. Without doing so, I would never have stood a chance to get better.
Peter Levine writes a lot about healing past traumas. Here is one of his books. Waking the Tiger : Healing Trauma : The Innate Capacity to Transform Overwhelming Experiences.
Recovering from Lyme is not merely about taking ABX and medications. There is a lot of internal work that needs to be done. Discovering your past
emotional fears, scars and issues. Healing your spiritual body as well as the physical. The physical body is not healed only with ABX. ABX kills off pathogens but destroys many other systems in the body and throws the entire system off kilter.
That's why adding more trauma such as a tattoo with toxic dyes is foolish. If anyone is lucky to get rid of this spirochete you will be spending years getting you body back to homeostasis. You will be dealing with adrenal
issues, heavy metal toxicity issues, candida, GI repair, possibly thyroid problems, nerve regeneration, cardiac issues and whatever other damage the spirochete has left you with.
Think about the long term and the big picture. This illness is not to be taken lightly and ABX is not a magic bullet.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
quote:Originally posted by nomoremuscles:
On the other hand, the life of a Lymie sucks completely -- and if something can bring one a bit of joy ... well, then, maybe that's not so bad.
Exactly....
If you are going through crap everday already
and you want to do something that you used to
do before this illness I think it brings back a
sense your old self. Meaning staying away from
things you once did prior to getting sick is
not the answer. The key is doing it safely. If
I enjoy getting tattoos and am willing to
compromise my immune system even more, so be
it. At least it will put a smile on my face. My
point is don't stray from what you love... If
it puts a smile on your face and gets you
through the day, then do it!
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
That's certainly your call but one wonders why when one is so ill why one would take a chance on
prolonging your illness or causing new complications and adding both to your financial and family burdens.
There are a million things I have denied myself since being sick....mainly the joy of life. But I want to do everything I can to get well and have made progress. Wouldn't dare think of jeopardizing it nor do I have the extra $$$ to waste of frivolities.
Seems pig headed to me, especially since you claim to have made little progress so far. Seems like you have a long way to go.
Good luck......
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I personally wouldn't risk introducing anything foreign into my body, but that's because I know my immune system has gone haywire. Autoimmunity is the last thing i need.
Posted by lymeric (Member # 16465) on :
Yes, the mental reinforcement and strength you get from the tats may trump other concerns...
The Buddhist proscription against body invasion is why Asian medicine developed a non-surgical methodology, with energy, chakras, etc.
Also, Buddhism and Asian medicine as presented in the west are sometimes different. Much is left out of books and teachings, etc. because of cultural incompatibility.
The same system that gives us chakras and meridians to think about says it's medically necessary for males to have constant sexual gratification to be healthy, thus justifying the world's most extensive and elaborate brothel network.
Those trying to cash in or simply spread some of the Asian way obviously left such concepts in Asia. (Wouldn't sell many books here. Also, maybe they don't believe in this particular piece of Chinese medicine.)
Which leads to advice found in many contexts: Pick and choose. Take what's good for you. Leave the rest.
FYI: There is a term in Chinese for America that translates, "Women's heaven on earth." It's all about perspective, I guess.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Abxnomore:
I think everyone in this forum and the Lyme coummunity wants to get well. That's a no-brainer.
Sometimes being spontaneous and frivilous isn't at all that bad. Even when it puts a smile on my face.
Pig headed or not we are all in the same boat stuck in the middle of the ocean... some will stay with the boat, others will wander away...
Yes, I have made little progress so far, by the way I'm glad your keping "tabs" on me.
Yes ,I have a long way to go but I'm ready, with my fists clenched.
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Don't keep your fists clenched. It could bring on muscle spasms........ Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
LOL... Yeah don't need anymore of them... Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
You asked: " . . .safe to get tattoos with Lyme."
I'm so sorry but I simply have to say rather loudly: NO!
Ink is petroleum based. The process itself will put the adrenals in shock from the pain, etc. The risk of infection is huge.
Please. If you want to buy colorful or sharp clothes to look terrific, go that route. Get a new hair style. But it's really best to be very kind to your skin.
-
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
You asked: " . . .safe to get tattoos with Lyme."
I'm so sorry but I simply have to say rather loudly: NO! There is has way more than just the needle sterilization to consider.
Ink is petroleum based. That alone can increase your risk of cancer in the future as petroleum products are endocrine disruptors. Petroleum and whatever else in in that ink does not below in your body. Sometimes, that ink contains lead or other harmful heavy metals.
Would you drink the ink solution? Would you be willing to take a little bit of it under your tongue each day. Having it on your skin forever is about the same thing.
Whatever, you are introducing foreign material into your body. The skin is the prime detox organ we have. We need all that skin to be able to work for us. Inked skin cannot do that.
The process itself will put the adrenals in shock from the pain, etc.
Even under the best of circumstances, the risk of infection is huge, even for "healthy" people.
If you want to perk up or make a fashion statement - to buy colorful or sharp clothes to look terrific. Get a new hair style. There are many other ways to find joy and appreciate art. But it's really best to be very kind to your skin.
-
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
LOL...Thanks for the advice... I new I would get a mixed result.
I completely understand everyone that opposes getting a tattoo.
There is no fashion statement that I'm trying to make, I just enjoy tattoos...
As far as buying sharp clothes or getting a new hairstyle, I'll leave that to someone else...
Thanks for your input!
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
it's an extraordinarily personal decision and although i wouldn't personally do it at this stage in my illness/recovery, i wish i could; i think tattoos can be a beautiful form of self-expression.
i take huge exception to much of lymeric's first post. as someone with tattoos and someone who has dear friends with half and whole sleeves and more, i find his/her opinion to be enormously offensive and discriminatory. i understand that tattoos interfere with the body's energy field and can impede healing, but so do scars of all types: surgery scars, injuries, bullet wounds, the list goes on. to imply that cultures utilizing ritual tattooing (part of various ancient spiritual traditions that extend back thousands and thousands of years) are somehow more 'barbaric' and 'violent' than other, so-called 'civilized' cultures seems like a dangerous statement brimming with racism and xenophobia.
to bring it back to my own personal experience: i have many friends with multiple tattoos, in fact some of them have more tattooed skin than untouched skin. and they are all beautiful, gentle people, full of love and caring and concern for their families and communities.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
heiwalove:
Very well said!!! Thanks for you reply.
Posted by lymeric (Member # 16465) on :
...more to say later about Heiwalove's post later, gotta go... but please don't put that hatred and ignorance on me. Better to be a little more responsible. I never, and wouldn't say any of those wicked things you imputed. Especially as someone who studied, worked, and lived with indigenous cultures around the world.
Curiously, I was going to add in my original post that most people I've met in western culture practicing "extreme" body modification seem to have super gentle souls. Guess I should have.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Im not hating or ignoring... just find it very interesting to have such a mix in replies...
All input is great positive or negative, I feel....
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
Thanks for the links... This post is like a repeat of those.
You have some that say "heck ya!" and then you have those that oppose it.
Thanks again!
Posted by lymeric (Member # 16465) on :
Kreynolds, I was referring to Heiwalove's post, not yours.
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
um, lymeric, i was just reacting to your words. you wrote, and i quote:
"Tattooing/piercing may through field interference increase a tendency towards violence and anger. Which may be desirable for some. Especially in prison, where in-house tattoos are big.
Is it a coincidence that the most violent known societies have the highest number of....... tattoos and piercings. These indigenous tribes have murder rates of 40% and more. They haven't reached a stage of development where they understand field concept as well as their less rural cousins, in Asia for instance."
that's extremely offensive to me. i stand by my post.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Lymeric:
That is very offensive.... I didn't even see that part.
Obviously you know nothing about people it seems, I agree with heiwalove.... Very Rude!!
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Why are we judging Lymeric before he has had a chance to come back and explain? He said that he would.
Even in the two older threads posts that were posed above, the same themes come thru. Mainly two distinct points.
Even with clean needles the ink wells will become contaminated. That would be equal to getting a shot at the doctor's office with a clean needle for a procedure that requires two doses so he takes the same needle out of your arm and sticks it back into the vile and then back into you.
If he is doing this repeatedly the solution he is sticking into you is not sterile, thou the needle will be. BETTER HAVE YOUR OWN INK AND NEEDLES IF YOU WANT TO BE SAFE FROM PATHOGENS.
The inks used are documented to be made from petroleum based products, contain heavy metals, and other industrial solvents that are unregulated by any government agency for human safety and slowly leech into your system thru out your life span much the same way mercury amalgams do. It like intentionally putting poison into your body that will eventually in some way, shape or for affect your health.
Does this effect one's immune system. You bet it does and your health down the line whether you have lyme or not. But having lyme you are adding a extra toxic burden to the system, a system that often has trouble detoxing. It will further stress your adrenal glands and add to a cascading effect of ill health.
Still, it's everyone's free choice what they do with their bodies. I only hope they would be informed of the consequences before making such choices.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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'Would you inject car paint into your skin?"
Just in case folks didn't get a chance to open and read this link that was a posted above by Abxnomore,
. . . . car paint, petroleum and mercury make up the dye. I don't see how any LLMD would want to continue trying to get someone well when this stuff is being absorbed into a patient's skin on a daily basis.
Just as some LLMDs dismiss patients for not following the self-care guidelines (such as consuming alcohol and smoking) because it's a loosing battle under such conditions, you might check with your LLMD to see if s/he would be able to work against this huge obstacle.
If you are serious about wanting to recover from lyme, I urge you to reconsider and give your body the care it needs to fight this battle.
FDA Will Review Toxic Tattoo Chemicals - (02.10.2008)
The FDA has launched an investigation into the chemicals contained in tattoo and permanent makeup inks, as well as their potential health consequences.
Excerpts:
The European Commission had sent out a warning already in July 2003, where they asked 'Would you inject car paint into your skin?,' that somehow was summarizing the possible health risks associated with tattooing.
The report of the European Commission said most chemicals used in tattoos were industrial pigments originally used for other purposes, such as automobile paints or writing inks, and there was little or no safety data to support their use in tattoos.
. . .
One of the chemicals known to be used in tattoo ink is thimerosal, also called thiomersal, an organic compound containing ethylmercury.
In the US, thimerosal is commonly included in tattoo inks, vaccines, antivenins, and eye and ear products as a preservative. Due in part to mercury's toxic effects, thimerosal is very effective at killing off fungal and bacterial growth.
Mercury is a well-known neurotoxin . . . .
. . . .
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Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Keebler, yes it was all posted already above. Pretty clear how bad this stuff is but some still
truly don't understand the connections between this illness and the outside world. You know we live in a world where we want easy fixes and think a pill
will answer all our problems. There is lots of repair that needs to be done during and long after the pills are gone to getting the body back into homeostasis.
The last thing I would want is to put this kind of toxic junk into mine. There are enough toxins
I have to avoid just by breathing the air, drinking water and finding food that has not been poisoned by Monsanto and others.
Not everyone wants to do the hard work involved that it takes to really take care of yourselves. It's too bad we live in a world where most of the
stuff that is out there is bad for us and we have to research and educate ourselves about everything, even the food we eat.
Many think if it's available, then it must be safe......not so infortunately.
Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
Well, it seems that in California (see below) they are required to warn customers about possible toxins in inks. Similar to the warning on Cigarettes.
But we all know they will not ban cigarettes or I doubt these toxic inks either as the government makes revenue from the sales and people would be fighting mad if there "choice" to indulge in these things ,even though unhealthy, was taken away from them.
Just be informed about what you are doing and weigh the risks -- it's your decision.
Personally, I am already so damaged by the toxic metals in almalgams (all my molars which cost a fortune to remove & replace with crowns)& vaccines that I think a tattoo might be "the straw that broke the camel's back" for me.
_________________________ News Release September 19: State Judge Issues Preliminary Injunction Requiring Warnings on Tattoo Ink Products Sold by Largest Ink Sellers in US U.S.
American Environmental Safety Institute
Palo Alto, California
NEWS RELEASE
For Immediate Release: Monday, September 19.
Contact: Roger Carrick - (213) 346-7925
State Judge Issues Preliminary Injunction Requiring Warnings on Tattoo Ink Products Sold by Largest Ink Sellers in US
Los Angeles, CA - Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Irving Feffer today issued a preliminary injunction against Huck Spaulding Enterprises, Inc. ("Spaulding") and Superior Tattoo Equipment Co. ("Superior"), the largest tattoo ink sellers in the country.
New York-based Spaulding sells the "VooDoo" brand, while Arizona-based Superior sells the "Prizm" brand of tattoo inks.
The preliminary injunction requires these companies to place the following warning on their tattoo ink labels, catalogs and Internet sites for their California customers:
"WARNING: Tattoo inks and pigments contain many heavy metals, including Lead, Arsenic and others.
All of these heavy metals have been scientifically determined by the State of California to cause cancer or birth defects and other reproductive harm.
Pregnant women and women of childbearing age in particular should consult with their doctor before getting any tattoo.
A person is exposed to tattoo inks and/or pigments when they get a tattoo because they are injected with tattoo ink under their skin or the tattoo ink is applied on their skin."
Judge Feffer granted the motion for preliminary injunction brought by the American Environmental Safety Institute in its Proposition 65 lawsuit filed against Spaulding, Superior and seven other tattoo ink and pigment manufacturers.
The lawsuit alleges that these companies are exposing teenagers and adults who are tattooed using their inks to dangerous levels of Lead and seven other toxic metals.
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
Some very good points are brought up here.
Obviously, I am a pro-tattoo, tattooed person but the discussion here has raised concerns for me...
I am going to get in touch with my tattoo artist friend and ask him about the toxicity of his inks.
I'll let you know what he says.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I'm not sure most of the folks in the business are even told what they are working with. I think they may be shocked themselves to find out or to learn the serious nature of the ingredients.
I was never taught in school about many of the dangers we face with what we have consumed for decades. It takes a lot of research - and reading from many sources - to get the full picture.
The people who mfr and sell the ink don't want buyers to know.
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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
does anyone know of any tattoo artists who work with nontoxic, organic inks? i wonder if such inks even exist..
Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
I'll ask him about that, too, Heiwa.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
apparently I must have injected car ink into my skin 8 times...
I posted this originally to find out if it was safe to get a tattoo with Lyme and Co's.
I didn't want to infect another person if the artist was unsterile.
Obviously there is good supportive evidence that claims all the stuff in the ink is bad, as Abxnomore and Keebler had pointed out.
I just don't know where getting a tattoo fits in with increased violence and anger?? Prison tattoos??
Thats all I'm saying. Everyone has helped me with my question regarding tattoos and I thank you.
I just don't get where some people think by getting them could increase violence and anger??
We will have to see what Lymeric says....
Thanks again to all that replied!
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Interesting discussion.
I'm in so much pain I couldn't even think of having a tattoo done. With all of this pain over the years, one would think I would be an honorary shaman by now... tattoo or not.
Aside from the pain, I have also heard that the inks are toxic. I did see a place in LA once that had a Maori guy doing tattoos in the native style. Maybe he makes his own inks based on their cultural traditions or with more natural ingredients?
I don't have any tattoos & I probably won't get any due to my pain condition. I don't need any other toxins in my system, either. I have studied fine art & did textile design which requires good drawing skills in a particular type of style.
I was thinking of learning tattooing but I'm not sure I could do it since I don't have any tattoos... My eyesight isn't as good as it was & my hand isn't quite as steady as it used to be.
I haven't studied enough to know if violent cultures get more tattoos than other cultures... Judging by the amount to death imposed by wars from this country - one might think the president would be covered in them.
I also have a kind of strange idea about tattoos & body piercing... It occurred to me that this trend towards tattoos & piercing was in preparation for implantation of devices under the skin to monitor people in the future. Or, to have a cashless society.
You know, like 666 - mark of the beast & all. I know tattooing has it's beauty & art, rite of passage, etc. but it did occur to me.
They have developed RFID tags that can be implanted under the skin - - - Why not make it a cool fashion statement? I hope this isn't too over the top for y'all...
Just some thoughts.
PS- I would think that they use disposable needles. I can't see why anyone would re-use a needle. They are inexpensive. Who would want to be accused of spreading AIDS, etc. or getting sued over the cost of a needle in this day & age?
Ultimately, it's a personal decision. I studied sculpture & art & was exposed to way more toxins from molten metals, stone, plaster, clay & all kind of paints & solvents over my lifetime...
Some people die from eating tainted spinach or meat with e-coli from the health food store...
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
sparkle7:
Thanks for your input!!!
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
H, I know some places have vegan inks (most ink isn't totally vegan), but not sure if those are non-toxic as well.
I have no tats, though I'd love to get one or two. As of right now, I have more piercings and am more into piercing than tattooing. Though I'd love a tattoo at some point.
Posted by lymielauren28 (Member # 13742) on :
My husband is a tattoo artist and has MANY tattoos. I don't have not a one, lol.
I've asked him to give me a tattoo for over a year now, and have even resorted to begging a few times.
He's a stubborn guy and refuses to give me one bc of my Lyme disease. He's concerned that it'll put to much stress on my already overly stressed body, or that it may not heal properly or as quickly as it should - tiny cuts and scratches seem to hang around for forever on me.
After reading all of these posts on the toxicity of the ink (which never even occured to me before) I'm really glad that I wasn't able to talk him into it.
I think I'll leave my body just the way it is
Lauren
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Your husband is a smart man.
Posted by emh2l (Member # 18886) on :
I got my first tattoo over a year after my many neuro symptoms first started. It healed quickly and my symptoms didn't increase or worsen at all.
The tattoo shop that did mine used sterile equipment, sterile needles and squirted ink into sterile ink holders. No sharing of ink, equipment, etc.
For those harping about the extra toxins, stress to the immune system, etc -- how many of you smoke or have an occassional drink? How many of you are out in the sun with no sunscreen? How many of you have children/are around children during cold and flu season? How many of you eat McDonalds or drink a Coke? How about the hairspray or make-up you use? Deodorant or lotion? And all those Lyme tx?
Seems to me that many of the anti-tattoo comments are really just that -- anti-tattoo. I find it hard to believe that all of the detractors are leading truly toxin-free lives...
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
I know we can't avoid all toxins but I try my best. Don't smoke, don't drink, don't use commercial deordorants (use a mineral one), use mineral
based makeup (Jane Iredale) no lead, tar, cat guts, don't eat at McDonalds, don't eat junk food eat organic real
food, don't drink any thing but filtered water or organic tea and I read labels and understand what they mean. I research as much as I can because knowledge is power.
I am not anti tattoo. I am pro health as I know that more than 90% of the stuff that is on the
market is bad for me and there are already enough environmental toxins that my body has to deal with, coupled with this illness. I want my health back.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Lauren - How did your husband get into tattooing? You can PM me if it's better for you to respond that way.
It's probably best to try to avoid toxins if possible. I was into health foods & being healthy since I was 14 or so. I'm 47 now. I don't smoke, drink & rarely eat anything but healthy foods. I still got CFS, herpes, fibromyalgia, & Lyme & who knows what else...
We go outside & there are chemtrails everywhere. Who knows what we are being sprayed with. If it makes someone happy to get a tattoo - I'd say go for it.
Would any of you say they are never going to walk outside in fear of getting bitten by a tick again? We can't all go live in a bubble somewhere.
I'm not so convinced about the whole scar trauma theories. It's an interesting topic. I'm sure there are people who have gone through very severe trauma in this world & seem to be healthy... healthier than most of us, in any case.
I don't think it's trauma that has caused our illnesses. It may be through going through pain that we are able to transform our minds. If one choses to do this in a conscious way - it seems like it can be helpful.
There are some traumas that we can't control. Maybe this trauma induced rite of passage is a way for people to feel they have control over their lives? In this case, the benefit may outweigh the risk...
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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emh2l,
It is not true that everyone who is against tattoos smoke or drink, etc.
I don't smoke, drink, eat sugar, gluten, diary or corn. I stay to a good glycemic index and eat healthful foods. My body has little leeway in this but I've come to appreciate that my body's requirements are the better choices.
I am not anti-art. I am not against self-expression (unless it is harmful).
I am against putting toxins into our bodies. It seems that no matter how many articles explain what goes into the ink or what mercury can do to the brain, that this seems to be a "freedom of expression" thing.
But it really is not. It's about having full knowledge - doing all the research from many sources.
It not that I want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of life. Quite the contrary. Once the body is so affected by infections such as lyme, one wrong step can make progress impossible.
I would never consider putting anything into or onto my body that might be harmful. We have choices. I even use hand lotion that is free of petroleum products because of the damage they can do even from absorption.
For more about petroleum products in the human body:
There are many other professional articles about what mercury can do.
--
I wondered if henna might be an alternative art medium but just did a basic search and it seems that there can be problems there, too, with additives such a mercury and scaring from "black" henna.
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[ 03-25-2009, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by merrygirl (Member # 12041) on :
I have multiple tattoos and I love them. I havent had one done for 10 years now, but I look at them and remember the times in my life that were so good and fun. Its a permanent reminder of where I have been in my life. Someday I will get another (likely a symbol of my defeat of lyme and a tribute of some kind to my children), but while I have Lyme I am going to wait, as I dont think my body can handle that now. as a side note..... my heavy metals tests were great!
DOes anyones tattoos get raised and sorta itchy? happens sometimes to me.
melissa
Posted by emh2l (Member # 18886) on :
Keebler -
I didn't say that everyone against tattoos smokes and drinks. My point was that it is nearly impossible to live toxin free. We all make choices that involve exposure to toxins. It is nearly impossible to live toxin-free.
It's great that you live as "healthy" as you do. I am healthy and live healthy, as well. Other than LD (or whatever this is), I am healthy and have been even with my choice of tattoos. In my experience, tattooing did not worsen anything. No heavy metals here. No mercury. A really cool tattoo, though.
I guess my problem with this thread is that it went from asking a simple question to an outright condemnation of people's individual choices.
Some with LD have chosen oral abx, some natural treatments, some IV, some the ILADS approach and some the IDSA way. People don't have to agree with other's choices but to say they are blatantly wrong is, IMHO, wrong.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Abxnomore:
Must be tough reading all those labels and getting that deodorant!!!
More power to ya!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I have not meant to condemn anyone's choice and I don't see that in the other posts based on the ingredients.
It's not condemning people's choices, just what the industry has put out there for us in the products and sharing the experts and researchers' work on that. We, as consumers, have to step up to the plate. We have to learn more.
Just as with vaccines, with what Jenny McCarthy has done - it's all about safety.
I'm glad you did not suffer any ill effects. But with the experts' assessment of the dangers, for someone in ill health, their findings are what alarms me, as a consumer and someone who is genuinely interested in helping others feel good - as long as they can.
My father was a product liability attorney. I cannot tell you the kind of machines or products that were touted as safe - when the manufacturers knew for a long time that they were not.
Once, a woman showed up at our house with her head raw and bleeding from a bad hair treatment. Still, in my teens all though to my forties, I either bleached or highlighted my hair.
I was rather slow to get it. My lungs now are in poor shape. I don't know how much of that was from breathing in harsh fumes and even powdery stuff from mixing the bleach but I am sure I did not help. And all those chemicals that soaked into my head did not increase my IQ, I'm quite sure.
This is just one example of how, because I wanted to look prettier or have that extra spark of light that I put my body at risk. My lungs have to carry me through the rest of my life and now I have much work to see that that is possible.
Many of the LLMDs tell us to avoid mercury in some varieties of fish. It would follow, then, that we should avoid mercury in other sources, too.
It's not about condemning someone for wanting to perk up their appearance. I totally get that.
It's about the products. It's about how the body will deal with that for the rest of time. Some seem to do fine but it is clearly a risk with a compromised body.
The world may be filled with lots of toxins but we have a choice in not having to add to that.
And I can start thinking about the next step. What might be a safer method. I can see someone making money on some sort of tattoo patches or tattoo armbands, etc. With art, there is much to explore. With ingredients, too, there are alternatives. We just might not have found them yet.
I can actually see putting some of the more elegant tattoos on fabric and framing them for wall decor. Many artists are talented and deserve to find a medium in which they can prosper.
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[ 03-23-2009, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
So who said that life was going to be easy?
When you live in a world run by large corporations whose main interests are profits, you bet you have to research, educate yourself and know what you are putting in your body.
Seriously, you should not be using commercial deodorant. It is full of aluminum salts and keeps your body from sweating. You need to sweat to detox all the toxins in your body.
I've been using this stuff over 25 years when I tested high for aluminum. My doctor told me to stop using commercial deodorant.
It stops the odor but allows your body to sweat and detox and won't clog up your lymph nodes. It's cheaper, too.
I'll have to check it out... Your are right about checking everything out though..
I just don't have the energy to do so... What about shampoos and soaps????
Organic is very expensive....I know its the best route, but it is very costly...
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Well while you are home sick use the time when you are up to it to read and learn. There's nothing you can't find on the Internet.
Soaps and shampoos are loaded with chemicals, dyes and lots of bad stuff, too. Stay away from artificial dyes and colors. Commercial tooth paste is terrible, too.
It has fluoride in it, a known carcinogen, and saccharin. I use PerioBrite and find it to be a good product. It does not contain Sodium-Lauryl-Sulfate, as other natural toothpastes do.
Soft drinks are loaded with sugar and robs the calcium from your bones. Fruit juice is basically sugar, you are better off eating the fruit. You get the fiber and the fresh vitamins of the fruit.
Basically, if you look at a product and can't pronounce the ingredients or don't know what it is, it's most probably not good for you. Or research it and find out what it is before you eat it.
Yes organic is often more expensive but not always.
That deodorant I use is probably cheaper. Haven't bought any other kind in years but I bet the kind you buy in the drug store is more expensive.
Local farmer's market, when in season...buying local is not necessarily more expensive. It's about making good choices. If you go into ethnic
markets, especially middle eastern ones they always sell olive oil soap. They sell it at a reasonable price, compared to the fancy shops.
In the long run, if you take care of yourself, your medical bills will be less down the line.
It's about learning and educating yourself.
Try subscribing to Dr. Mercola's newsletter as a place to start. I don't always agree with him but he brings up good issues and information.
There are many health newsletters and radio shows you can learn from, as well as books. And, of course, there is lots to learn right here on Lymenet! Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Abxnomore:
Thanks for the info!! I give you lots of credit researching everything!
Did you always stay clear from regular supermarket health/beauty supplies or did you start doing it once you got sick?
Thanks again!
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Pretty much always but I got more extreme once I got sick.
I have always gone to alternative doctors and grew up with an immigrant family that used old fashioned natural remedies, values that were closer to what the struggles of real life were about.
My motto is to stick as close to what mother nature provides. Live the way people used to live in the old days when they farmed their own food and made their own products. While I can't live like that now, I try to do the best within this world we live in.
I spent most of my childhood in the garden growing fruits and vegetables...all natural, no pesticides!
As a child if I was sick, my mother didn't automatically drag me to the doctor. She knew what to do. Nature provides us with everything we need, before we destroyed it.
Look at the intricate system of Chinese medicine, thousands of years old all based on natures bounty.
One thing you can be sure of, if you hear an advertisement telling you something is good for you, it's probably not. Research it first.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Anytime I settle for something that is not organic, I ask myself what the cost will be to get the chemicals back out of my body. It is often much higher - and after a chance for damage to occur. Undoing the damage is not easy and not always possible.
I have found that I really don't have to load the shower gel on - a tiny bit goes a long way.
If I don't have the time to research something that goes into my body - I don't use it.
BTW, did you know that some fabric softeners use mercury ? But they don't have to tell you that.
Avoiding petroleum products is very important as not only can they contribute to cancer but, for lyme patients who already have a wrecked and dysfunctional endocrine system, petroleum products (including scented air fresheners, etc) are what is termed an "endocrine disruptor" - you can read much more about that at the site below.
You can check out all the ingredients in personal care/grooming/cosmetics and household products here. You might just have to look around a bit as there are many links within this site:
Abxnomore, thanks for sharing your story, it was very intersting!
I will definately look into some things that I didn't know could effect me, like make a simple deodorant change for starters.
Eventually, I know this will take time, I will be able to incorporate more healthy things into my life.
Thanks again for the replies!!!
Posted by lymemomtooo (Member # 5396) on :
Do any of you know if there are organic and safe inks? My daughter told me not to worry, her tattoos were done with safe ink..Not sure how she really could know that.
I also heard a cd from Dr. K once that said many people do not release mercury and do not have a positive test. They have to do some special challenges to get it to move around and show up.
He explained his nurse had some fillings removed and was very ill but did not show up mercury positive until much later when he had her do some challenge things, don't remember what they were, to free up the mercury. lmt
Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
Warning...Beware!
There are no safe inks for our bodies.
There are no safe foreign substances that we add to our body.
We are taking risks each time we introduce something new that is not a natural food. We are made to ingest food! That's it! Anything else, take at your own risk.
Our immune systems go into action against any foreign substance. Wait until the young people
with tats get a little older, and start to feel the effects of a compromised immune system.
Especially when they really need their immune system to be healthy to fight off another pathogen or invader that they did not choose to put in their body, like lyme.
It's exactly what many of us face after years of getting mercury amalgam fillings. We were told those were safe by our dentist.
I'm speaking from experience with feeling invincible in my youth.
My initial problem was actually years of diet pills, asparatame, and weight loss supplements that took a big toll on my immune system.
At the time I took these...they were considered safe by most Americans!
I'm a baby boomer...and we have all been exposed to a wide variety of so called "safe" toxins, only to be later told, sorry, we made a mistake with your health!
I also dye my hair...to cover grey....and that also has metals that i just became aware of recently...it is a very big problem now for me to resolve..similar to the tatoo issue.
If I knew then...what I know now...I may be healthier today with lyme.
consider this:
Also the metals in the tats and the amalgams and the hair dye are passed onto our unborn children. My young daughter was just tested for metals...and has loads of mercury!!!(she has no tats, hair dye, or amalgams...but has all the chemicals and metals in her system...!) How could this be?
I am only responding here to sound the alarm and ring the warning bell that was never done for me!
I want you all to be healthy and your future children, which is the future of our country, to be strong and healthy too!
Think ahead and be smart! Follow your intuition.
LP
Posted by emh2l (Member # 18886) on :
The thing about research is that it can be skewed to prove any viewpoint. Seriously. Jenny McCarthy and others are convinced that vaccines cause autism and they have the research to back it up. There was recently a panel of medical/autism professionals who concluded that vaccines do not cause autism -- and they have the research to back it up.
I know there is research about tattoos. If you look at the whole body of research, you will find it to say that they are both safe and unsafe.
Lyme disease has research showing two very different viewpoints, the ILADS and the IDSA. I know this group feels strongly that ILADS has the "true" research and approach. I find it hard to believe, though, that all the IDSA folks are idiots or out to make a buck. There is likely truth to both sides.
I appreciate all the links to the research on tattoos, deodorant, etc. But you have to remember that there are two sides to every story and an equal body of research to support the other side.
My problem, like I said, is when one side is presented as gospel truth. I understand that you and others are trying to educate about safety. But presenting it as "THE" definitive research and thereby drawing a conclusion of things being unsafe is problematic.
Just my opinion. I'm off to admire my tattoo. Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I have been careful about my diet, cosmetics, beauty products, etc. for most of my life & I still became ill.
My mother got lymphoma from black hair dye when I was 12. She didn't know it was from black hair dye until many years later. I was always very cautious about things from a young age.
Even still, I became ill with CFS when I was in my 20s. Then, I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia when I was 36 & Lyme 9 years later.
It's really hard to say that if you avoid something that you think is toxic that you will be free of illness. I recently moved to the south & people down here are really obese. Sad to say but you just can't help noticing it.
So if the toxins don't get you the pathogens or junk food will... It's really hard to stay away from it all. Now, they are talking of introducing cloned meats. We already have GM foods in the store that aren't clearly labeled.
Many people have jobs that expose them to toxins, EMF, too much stress. We can do small things like buy organic or stop using products with toxins but it's everywhere.
Not to mention mercury fillings & toxic dental materials, vaccines, giving kids drugs for Attention Deficit, etc.
Just the stress from having these "mystery" illnesses is enough to make you want to give up.
I agree with the people who say that the inks are toxic. I've worked in the art world for many years & most paints are very toxic.
I don't want a tattoo but I can understand why someone would. I'm not sure I would say that no one should do it. People have been doing tattoos for thousands of years...
It seems kind of hypocritical when there are so many things people do everyday that can be toxic, as well... I know people with tattoos that are fine & in good health.
Posted by pab (Member # 904) on :
sparkle7,
How did your mother find out her Lymphoma was caused by black hair dye?
My mom had Lymphoma for 13 years. She died from a different type of cancer.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Lymphoma from black hair dye??? I understand the controversy that surrounds getting a tattoo.
I feel that you can try your hardest to stay away from everything "toxic", but for myself I would be paranoid by every little thing if I did that.
I think you need to live your life to the fullest and happiest you can, given your circumstances.
If I'm going to die, I'm gonna die happy!
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
My mother had developed an enlarged lymph gland back around 1972 or so. They thought it was cat scratch fever at first. Then the tests came back for cancer.
Many years later, there was a class action suit that found that black hair dye caused lymphoma. I think some people were awarded money. My mother didn't participate - I don't know why.
Beauty products are very bad in that they don't have much regulation. They put all kinds of crap in cosmetics & things you apply to your skin. The skin is just as susceptible to absorb these things as if you eat or breathe it (in my opinion).
I guess this goes to support why it may not be good to have a tattoo. It is very hard to avoid everything.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Well sorry to hear about your loss....
I guess you have to check things two or three times before you use them!
Hope your doing ok....
Thanks again for your input!
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Thank you... We aren't close. I left home when I was 17 (30 years ago)... I think she's still hanging in there. They gave her an experimental therapy at Sloan Kettering hospital & it worked.
Sorry to be so flip about it but I tried to have a relationship with her but she doesn't really care. I saw her last summer & she's 85. It's unfortunate that she's unavailable but that's the way she wants it.
So, you don't always know what going to kill you... Might be the organic spinach...
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Yeah or the organic deodorant!!! Everyday on the news they tell you something new that will kill you.
First it was burnt bread causes cancer then it was talking on the cell phone.
Believe me I'm sure some of the stuff is 100 percent ligit.
All I'm saying is I have crappy life ( besides having my family) and If something will make me happy then why not do it?
I guess I'm one that likes to live on the edge... maybe I haven't come to terms with this disease and co's yet...
Maybe I'm in denial and pretend like my life is how it used to be. I know one thing for sure, if I'm thinking positive then I'm one up on life.
This disease may kill me, it may not. By getting a tattoo at least for me is very theraputic.
It relaxes my mind... and who knows maybe I'll get one of a Tick with a dagger in it! I understand both sides of the fence.
This post has brought out some pretty good stuff and I'm glad I posted.
I don't get angry at those opposed to getting a tattoo, they are just trying to help.
I respect and thank everyone for their concerns/replies!
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Yes, using hair dye will increase your risk of getting cancer.
There is always two sides to the story. Don't we know. Lyme can become chronic, ILADS. No, it's easily curable, IDSA.
It all boils down to the individual and how they want to live their life. How many people smoke, knowing full well, there is no dispute there,
that it will significantly raise their chances of getting lung cancer. Most people who smoke, get it and die from it but people still smoke.
Coming from an anthropological back ground, I usually see things from the point of view of how we evolved and I don't like playing with mother nature, if I can help it. I think living as best
as we can, as one with nature is what is the healthier approach for homo sapiens.
And yes, I know indigenous peoples use tattoos but they use natural dyes from plants and the
earth and many have a shorter life span, so we don't know how having tattoos affected their long term health. I don't believe there are any studies on tattoos and indigenous peoples long term health.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Just be sure your LLMD will still be willing to work with you. It may make his/her job nearly impossible.
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Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Abxnomore:
I guess we are living in one toxic world then huh???
Tattoos have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years....
The Native American cultures used face paints and other dyes for celebrations, war, etc....
Yes, they were made from the earth, but as far as I know most Native Americans were very healthy.
It's all how you look at it... Liberal_________Conservative.
I'm very "Left Handed"!
Thanks for the response and the link!
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
re: as far as I know most Native Americans were very healthy
Many succumbed to small pox & other diseases that the Europeans brought here since they didn't have immunity to them.
The Europeans lived among domestic animals so they had developed antibodies to many diseases that were fatal to the Native people in the Americas.
Small pox was spread by accident & intentionally through disease infected blankets given to the Native people to wipe them out.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this but in some cases - a little poison may help us... Being completely germ free may not be a good thing. I don't know if this applies to chemicals, though.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Lyme patients have a much harder time getting rid of mercury due to the nature of the spirochete. Mercury is never a good thing and the spirochete lreally latches onto it. Elevated mercury is one of the things that makes the neuro symptoms much more severe.
This book has one of the very best explanations of why lyme patients are so burdened with mercury. It is fascinating to read that part of the book, even if one is not interested at all in Rife.
When Antibiotics Fail. . . Lyme Disease and Rife Machines
Foreword by Richard Loyd, PhD - By Bryan Rosner
========
There are also a million threads and other articles about mercury problems for lyme patients. You can search here at LymeNet for threads by GiGi.
A google search including Dietrich (or Deitrich) Klinghardt's work will also be helpful. He has done a great deal of research regarding mercury detox for lyme patients.
We are seeing a serious rise in the environment of neuro-toxic chemicals and heavy metals.
The resultant accumulation of heavy metals in the human body poses significant health risks. Chronic mercury exposure from occupational, environmental, dental amalgam, and contaminated food exposure is a significant threat to public health.
. . .
* Click link at site to read article.
- Also see menu to the left of the home page for the various links regarding heavy metals and lyme.
Klinghardt: Biological treatment of Lyme disease -- by Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt M.D., PhD
The Klinghardt Protocol
The treatment of Lyme disease requires 4 distinctive steps:
* Decreasing toxic body burden/unloading the system
* Improving disturbed physiology
* Decreasing microbial count
*. Immunemodulation
. . . .
================
Many solid links can be found through a Google search for
``Endocrine Disruptors`` and also for
[ "Endocrine disruptors" petroleum ]
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Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Sparkle not sure where you were going with your thread either. I was referring to indigenous peoples around the world.
Native Americans experienced genocide by the Europeans. I have a master's in anthropology, I know this stuff, about chicken pox infected blankets and the many atrocities we inflicted upon native Americans.
I was referring to all the indigenous cultures around the world who have been using tattoos for hundreds of years may be thousands. Back then all people had a shorter life span.
Of course Native Americans were healthy. They lived off the land without chemicals and didn't live in the toxic world we live in. If was way before the industrial revolution. Yes, we all need exposure to germs to build up immunity, but not exposure to poisons.
If people didn't have exposure to germs we would have no immune system. The Native Americans had no immunity to European diseases because the Old and New world developed in total isolation from each other for thousands of years.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Abxnomore:
What would you do then if a study was done where a person with Nuero Lyme like myself and a healthy person with nothing wrong with them.
(Each person got a tattoo at the same exact time and place.)
Then 20 years from the now guy with the Lyme outlasted the healthy guy.
All I'm saying is your life is a crapshoot. Tomorrow is never promised. I grew up in NYC and saw horrific things, but that made me who I am today.
Live life, thats all I'm saying....
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Look there are people who smoke three packs a day and live into their 90's. No one knows why they don't get lung cancer. However, most people who smoke do develop it.
This is all a personal choice. But in this day and age we have a lot of information available to us, such as knowing the health consequences of smoking. We now know that there is a direct correlation between lung cancer and smoking. It's not a matter of will I get lung cancer but more a matter of when, with very few exceptions.
Keep yourself informed. If you have the information and still what to take the risk then that's an informed decision. Everyone is free to do with their life what they wish.
It is they who will suffer the consequences later and they will have to deal with it when they do.
Some people are more cautious about the way they approach life then others. Of course, we all want to live life to the fullest but different people interpret what that means differently. Others are more willing to take risks.
As for myself, I do live life the way I want to. I've done all the things I've wanted to do. I've traveled to many areas of the world, I have a wonderful son, a good education, I help others, I'm politically
active, I take joy in the beauty of nature and I'm in control of my life. Except for this illness, I've done all the things I've wanted to
to do. So I look at the positives. Getting lyme has robbed me of a lot but I was blessed in many ways, too.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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It is impossible to say mercury exposure for a lyme patient is just a crap shoot.
Please read the Rosner book. So very much is explained there. We have a choice over what we put into our bodies. Yes, lyme is a mean and horrible disease but it requires the very highest levels of personal responsibility if we are ever to have a chance.
After reading Rosner and Klinghardt, which is just the tip of a mercury connection for lyme patients, there are other researchers who say that as long as mercury is in the body it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to successfully treat spirochetes.
This is no crapshoot. With clear and distinctive action, success is possible. Without that - not a chance. But, that's no crap shoot. It's all about taking responsibility, doing the homework, and remembering that our decisions can have life-long effects. It's best when those are in our favor.
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Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
Keebler, you are 100% correct. A lyme patient will never get well if they have mercury in there system and don't chelate it out.
I had all my amalgams removed and chelated out my heavy metals a while back.
It's all well documented how important it is to remove these toxins from the system. Too bad, not all LLMDs understand this.
Posted by Geet3721 (Member # 15751) on :
Thank you for this post very informative I am itching to get a new tatt but was going to wait a little while to do it.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Abxnomore:
Are you 100% positive that a Lyme patient will NEVER get well if mercury is in there system??
Or is that just an educated guess??? What if all the literature out there is false, but we are made to believe it???
Yes, obviously with a disease like this we want to rid our bodies of harmful metals, toxins, etc...
But to say that if one has mercury in there system they will NEVER get better seems a little farfetched.....
Like I said before... I must have injected car ink into my skin 8 times then....
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Some people get the mercury fillings removed & get worse. It happened to one of my doctors who had Lyme. No one asked for mercury in their heads. We just got it & now we have to deal with it.
I think my parents had mercury fillings, too. I read it can be passed down from generations. I can't really do anything about it now except try to have them removed which is expensive. I'll still have the residue in my body.
I think if you research the inks, you may be able to find some that are not too toxic. It probably depends on the color.
My point in bringing up about the Native Americans & pathogens like small pox is that the Europeans developed immunities because they lived in, probably, what we would consider unsanitary conditions with their animals.
This is why they developed resistance to infections that killed off many Native American people. I studied a bit of anthropology, too.
Many of our current mythologies come from comic book characters who are exposed to toxic things and become super heros or villains. Sometimes they say what doesn't kill you can make you strong.
Even in Buddhism, they say to transform the toxic emotions into something pure. It may help to think of that rather than being fearful of everything in our environment.
(I grew up in NYC, too. I know what you mean.)
Posted by emh2l (Member # 18886) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abxnomore: Keebler, you are 100% correct. A lyme patient will never get well if they have mercury in there system and don't chelate it out.
I had all my amalgams removed and chelated out my heavy metals a while back.
It's all well documented how important it is to remove these toxins from the system. Too bad, not all LLMDs understand this.
This is what I am talking about -- to say "will never get well" is stretching the evidence. "It's all well documented" makes the thinker in me want to know where it is well-documented and what the other side has to say about it.
Maybe not all LLMDs understand this because they are reading the other literature that shows it may not be the case...
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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To learn more, it's best to start with reading the sources referenced above (Rosner, Klinghardt). From there, there are other sources.
You could also study (separately from lyme) mercury itself and the effects on a brain and liver. It is very complex but also very interesting. If there is a university near you, perhaps one of the professors in the science departments would love to meet with you in person for about 15 minutes.
After doing some basic study, I always learned so much more by talking with the experts. Although I used to interview them for my job, I always found most professors / researchers thrilled to take a little time to explain their work. Most universities have a public affairs department with someone to guide you.
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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
LLMD's I"ve seen in general understand the metal issue. Except, some don't realize how the metals can go undetected. Some believe, if it does not show up in the test, you don't have any metals...hurray! WRONG.
It's easy to prove to your LLMD...just start chelatinig...then take the diagnostics test...then it will all come out!!! No denying the test then. IT is dangerous to do without the proper Dr. who understands how to do this safely. So I don't recommend chelating to prove a point with a LLMD who hasn't taken the time to investigate.
My LLMD attends regular seminars on the latest treatments and research, and is obsessed with helping her patients. She gets it! I consider her on the cutting edge. I have done my research too!
My LLMD tested me for heavy metals with Diagnostics Labs., I was negetive. She will not treat any negetive results.
This LLMD recognizes that not all tests pick up the metals immediately. Especially if they are being held in place and not in movement.
It's the peeling the onion skin thing....new problems finally show up after other things are treated. But the more hard to remove things we add in layers to the onion, the longer it will take to discover what is learking beneath!
You must be a proactive patient to discover your best way toward health! I don't know one lymie that has ever improved much with just following a cookie cutter approach.
I recently began seeing a ND who tested me for heavy metals energetically. This was a new thng for me...and I wasn't sure if I believed in this or understood it at the time but felt drawn to find out more. I knew I had a problem to uncover.
Metals were found in my gums and pockets around the teeth. I did this so I could begin a natural treatment that can only be done if there are no metals in my body.
After starting a conservative protocol to release and purge those metals, I had my LLMD re-run the diagnostics labs metal test...and now that is very positive. Double confirmation! My LLMD sees the metals on paper. My ND finds my body responds positively to the metals. Two different approaches.
I find both types of doctors help me to coordinate my best healing regime. The ND specializes in detox, and ART muscle testing and my LLMD in diagnosing the pathogens with traditional treatments. They both are concerned with enviromnental toxins, allergies and metals. I find that they each confirm my direction for treatment! It's so helpful! I do not need to see them often.
We all know how imperfect the testing is... Those LLMD's and patients that just go by other peoples findings and literature and not from their own personal experience, and results with their own patients, are not ones I would follow.
I follow those who have success with their patients, and listen only to those lymies and those posting here who are having improvements, who can follow protocols and know when their treatments are and are not working. Those that are willing to adjust, have no personal pride in being right, and love to share their first hand knowledge to help others.
And I will never blindly follow any one here either....neither should you.
But after a year of traditinal antibiotic treatment for Lyme and co, I knew I had some improvement, a diagnosis, and was on the path to healing, but was feeling worse! I just felt toxic. I trusted my instincts, and began to speak to others on this site, and have met many others in support groups that confirmed my suspicions of basic pathogen die off, candida and heavy metals.
One door opened another, and I eventually started to work on detoxing the metals, biofilms and candida problems. I actually feel like I am 95% better. All my energy is back. Brain Fog has lifted. And I am finally sleeping with no supplements. I know I can relapse at any time. So I am happy to feel good today!
I am taking a few supplements like amino acids in powder /liquid form along with green juice. As I am now working also on gut and malabsorption problems.
I am dealing with emotional and deep hurts on the spiritual level. And am feeling anxiety free at the moment. This is amazing.
The reason I add this info to this topic, is to say that we are not just dealing with lyme disease. People always post that on lymenet...now I am a believer as I experience it.
I still have lyme disease and most likely will the rest of my life. But right now it is under control with dealing with the other issues of metals, candida, gut and emotions.
I am also planning on doing the bionic 880, to further push the lyme and co. away from doing harm. I also have lupus so the lyme makes that a very real problem. So to do all this, metals must be addressed. I cannot stress that enough.
We are lucky to have some of those people with great experience and success posting on this topic. My advice is to listen, research and reflect. Ask questions and be open to change. You too will get better than you are today.
You also need to focus on healing...not on adding more layers to your onion.
From Leong, Syed and Lorscheider from the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Calgary (Canada).
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Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
lymeparfait -- Good informative post.
To begin with, if you don't take a provoked urine test for heavy metals with a chelating agent, usually DMSA, chances are you won't get a positive result.
I just want to say that I agree with you totally. That is how I have approached my illness and have made incredible progress. I have left no stone unturned. I have always seen an alternative M.D. well versed in all of these issues. Candida is equally important. It's not just a matter of taking diflucan or acidophilus but healing your GI track, after you get rid of the yeast.
Emotional issues will also delay ones progress. I mentioned the writings of Peter A. Levine already.
For those who want to learn using the search mechanism on this site will turn up tons of information. Searching the rest of the web will turn up even more.
Sparkle people who chelate and get sick usually are not doing it correctly and under the guidance of a knowledgeable practitioner. To begin with you have to have your phase 1 and 2 of liver
detoxification checked to make sure your body can clear the toxins that are being mobilized. Many people have genetic enzyme deficiencies and cannot clear the toxins, so they build up in the
body, rather than being cleared out of the body so you bet they feel sick. There are ways of correcting this, if you are working with a practitioner who knows what he/she is doing.
You need to have a kidney clearance test at least a week into IV chelation therapy to make sure your kidneys are functioning adequately as well. If your system if not up to par, you won't be able to clear the toxins from your system.
Just as with Lyme, there are many differences of opinion as to what is the best method to clear heavy metals from the body. Again, it's not a one size fits all procedure. There are many different chelating agents, DMPS, EDTA, DMSA and
others. What is fundamental is that you need to work with someone who is an EXPERT in the field. If not, you can end up making yourself seriously ill by mobilizing the metals in your
system but not moving them out of it. Supplements that aid in this process are important, Chlorella, Cilantro, Garlic, High doses of Vitimen C, especially NAC and ALA. NAC and ALA must be used together.
Keebler your contributions have been great too.
As for myself, this post is exhausting me. It's become a good informational thread. That's good.
But I feel like we are repeating the same thing.
And I will repeat that with out getting rid of your heavy metals and addressing candida in a "real" way, one will not be able to get a foothold on the lyme and co's.
WHO SAYS, most of the EXPERTS and the experiences of many right here on lymenet. Look and you shall find.
Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
If the post is exhausting you and feels repetitive then why post????
I have to agree with emh2l about this subject...
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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A question was asked. An answer - a presentation of the data - was requested. But, somehow, the transmission lines seem to be loaded with static. It is as if a tennis racquet keeps bouncing data back with a note saying "we really did not want to know."
There is the hope that additional postings, such as the one from doctors at the University of Calgary, might actually serve to educate the public as to the risks of mercury in our bodies, etc.
It's about preventing potentially permanent damage that does not have to occur.
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Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
Must be all the mercury causing the static....
I know mercury is bad for our bodies, how many times is someone going to bring it up???
Will it kill me to get another tattoo?? Probably not.
If I tried to prevent damage that didn't have to occur I wouldn't be in the mess I'm in now....
I appreciate all replies and understand both sides, but my mind is made up.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I just wonder. Why did you ask?
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Posted by Kreynolds (Member # 15117) on :
I asked because I wanted to make sure it was safe to get one without infecting someone else..
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