It gives folks something to consider and ponder when reading their Western Blots.
It does NOT mean everyone with these bands also has another problem... it simply means this trend is being noted by those paying attention.
If you have a specific band, for example.. you might want to consider the note beside that matches your numbers.
Band 58- Viral
Band 66- E.coli
Band 30- Mycoplasma
Band 45- Ehrlichiosis
Band 23- IgM- Early Lyme
Band 23-28, 85-88 CNS Lyme, spinal fluid
Band 39- Joint
Band 18- Lyme, Lyme, Lyme
Band 41- Relapsing fever, Oral Spirochetes, Syphilis, Lyme
Posted by Beautiful Disaster (Member # 21882) on :
That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by Allie (Member # 10778) on :
Hi Tincup,
Can you share your references for this info? I'm particularly curious about the "18 Lyme, Lyme, Lyme" because that is my most-commonly observed band (that and 41).
You can PM if you like.
Thanks for all the fantastic info you share.
Allie
Posted by JamesNYC (Member # 15793) on :
TC,
Please post your source on this. And what does "joint" mean for band 39?
Thanks for this info.
James
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
On Band 41 - oral spirochetes can't make you sick though, right - except for causing gum disease.
He states that: "Cross reactivity studies were done with syphilis. This does occur. How many syphilis patients have I seen in suburban practice in the last 20 years? One. Syphilis is easy to rule out."
He also states: "What about other spriochetal diseases? Yes. It can cross react with leptospirosis, rat bite fever and relapsing fever."
What he also says about dental spirochetes: "Current papers like to say that the 41band cross may reacts with dental spirochetes. Does the evidence support this? The answer is no. The primary dental spirochete is Treponema denticola. It is present in patients with periodontal infections. It is not particularly antigenic since it is protected within biofilms. The DNA structure of this spirochete has been worked out. It is very different from Borrelia. The 41 band reacts to a flagellum protein of Borrelia, the Lyme spirochete. The flagellum proteins of T. denticola are quite different from those of Borrelia. They are antigenically different. This was tough to find, but here it is: The WB or immunoblot bands that are specific for T. denticola flagelin proteints are: 38kd, 53kd and 72kd. In fact, the best known dental spirochete does not react with the 41 band."
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
TC, you're forgetting Timaca's evidence that 23-25 can be EBV virus. BIG one to consider and can highly discredit my Igenex findings.
Posted by sutherngrl (Member # 16270) on :
Seek have you been tested for EBV? I have band 23, but I tested negative for EBV.
And what does it mean "early lyme"? I was ill for over 3 years before ever getting band 23.
TC, where did this info come from?
Posted by ChuckG (Member # 19093) on :
IGeneX says viral bands only show on IgM. Not on IgG.
The study Timaca referred to linked to a letter in a German medical journal. And it states very specfically that they are only considering "early Lyme borreliosis (ELB) (duration of a few weeks to 3 months)".
EBV control group; "infectious mononucleosis" CMV control group: "acute cytomegalovirus"
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Disturbed.. Would you please post that info onto Dr C's WB explanation link?
Good stuff!
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Thanks, TC.. very interesting!
Disturbed.. Would you please post that info on Band 41 on Dr C's WB explanation? Very good info and link!
Posted by bigstan (Member # 11699) on :
Wow, Ilove this site more to learn everyday. Hey Tincup can you share your source?
Great post disturbed me. Now got more proof that my Western Blot 41kda band isn't related to dental spirochetes.
KA
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
Yep, and that's my most positive IgM only band ChuckG. I have very high EBV titers...other bands could hypothetically be viral.
I kind of hung my hat on the 23-25 band thinking it's good as gold according to Dr. C and other sources of data. I know it's a longshot and Lyme is a clinical diagnosis for most here, but it's nice to have a sure thing once in a while. Know what I mean?
quote:Originally posted by ChuckG: IGeneX says viral bands only show on IgM. Not on IgG.
The study Timaca referred to linked to a letter in a German medical journal. And it states very specfically that they are only considering "early Lyme borreliosis (ELB) (duration of a few weeks to 3 months)".
EBV control group; "infectious mononucleosis" CMV control group: "acute cytomegalovirus"
Posted by feelfit (Member # 12770) on :
Well according to the posted info I am everything but early lyme and erlichia. Who is the source?
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
TC can we have the resources for these discoveries please. I want to see these scientifically proven in peer reviewed literature. Danka! Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
disturbed,
please break up you medical info on 41 for us neuro folks so can read it, and take the broken up version and post on lymetoo's dr. c's western blot explanation post at top of medical.
we thank you; we'd like to be able to comprehend also.
yes, tc; you've got our attention, and where are your sources for this NEW, SHOCKING info on nos. Posted by bigstan (Member # 11699) on :
TC?
Posted by Beautiful Disaster (Member # 21882) on :
Band 23- IgM- Early Lyme
Band 23-28, 85-88 CNS Lyme, spinal fluid
So band 23 is early Lyme AND CNS Lyme? I guess I would have considered them to be different things, I would consider early Lyme to not have CNS involvement. But, I have read that it can get into the CSF within weeks. I guess that explains it?
I think we are all wondering where this info came from. If you can't get us a name? Can you give us a hint so we know how credible it may be?
Posted by Lemon-Lyme (Member # 19229) on :
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: [QB] Yep, and that's my most positive IgM only band ChuckG. I have very high EBV titers...other bands could hypothetically be viral.
Just to clarify (at least based on what Igenex told me), only a positive EBV IgM will affect the WB IgM. So if you tested WB IgM positive, yet your EBV IgM is negative, there would be no interference.
EBV IgG is common, at around 95% of all adults having it, and that shouldn't affect the WB IgM results.
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
Crap!
I've got every one of those.
Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
tincup, time to show up again .... you left quite a cliff hanger for us all.
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
Txing since 2006 and STILL throwing up band 23 IGM on Quest WB. ????????????
Was band 39 positive & MUCH more "neuro" than "joint". I never had the swollen knee thing.
I know, I know.....I'm a freak. I always used to like being different, now it's just annoying. Posted by bigstan (Member # 11699) on :
Tincup, Keeping this up so we can get an answer.
Posted by LymedOut (Member # 22351) on :
Very interesting! I have most of these too and the explanation makes sense as well. Thanks for posting this.
Posted by bigstan (Member # 11699) on :
Hmm I give up.
Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
i was going to email her at home, but my system won't let me send a regular email; go figure!!
she won't answer sunday; no lyme activisties on that day...
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Just got back after 5 days of Lyme meetings and attending the LDA/ILADS conferences in DC area.
I am VERY tired, but bottom line....
Like I said above.. "it simply means this trend (bands) is being noted by those paying attention."
"those paying attention" are several LLMD's that I trust whose names are not necessary because it is NOT official- just something to consider.
There is no study prove it, it isn't absolute, nor are you to bet the farm on it.
I just thought it was interesting and thought you might too.
I know nothing more than what I've already posted.
Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
tincup, thx for the further news since you were at conference and we never gave that any thought.
also rearranging nos. for my neuro mind ....
85-88 CNS Lyme, spinal fluid
Band 66- E.coli
Band 58- Viral
Band 45- Ehrlichiosis
Band 41- Relapsing fever, Oral Spirochetes, Syphilis, Lyme
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