I myself have had Autoimmune issues for the past 15yrs...Type 1 Diabetic, Hashimotio thyroid and suspect raynauds syndrome as well. All Before having Bulls=eye rash and LYME.
What I understand about autoimmune is that it is a condition that your body is fighting itself because it can't recongize bad cells from good cells....so it just keeps fighting EVERYTHING!
Lyme is a Bacteria! So, why would one say it is an autoimmune?? Maybe, it can trigger autoimmune response, but one does not get Lyme from having autoimmune.
Lyme I beleive can trigger autoimmune diseases, due to the stress of the body fighting and fighting.
I've seen many many posts...(not here) that beleive that Lyme is autoimmune?? and I'm confused?
Posted by peter j (Member # 11825) on :
I think lyme can cause auto immune problems...
Posted by apljack (Member # 14233) on :
My raynauds syndrome has mostly gone away with lyme treatment.
You are correct, lyme is a bacteria. It does play havoc with your immune system.
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
Autoimmune was a name given to the body's cytotoxic reactions. There is now in my mind no such thing.
There is only the ability of stealth infections to hide the real causes very well.
It is coming to fruition as we speak. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21087629 2010 Nov 15 AbstractOBJECTIVES: The aim of this study was to evaluate the chemokine CXCL13 and C6 antibodies separately and in combination in paired serum / cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) samples in the laboratory diagnosis of Lyme ...neuroborreliosis (LNB).
METHODS: A large retrospective material with paired serum / CSF samples from 261 patients with clinically suspected LNB was investigated.
Patients were divided into three main diagnostic groups based on original results of CSF pleocytosis and intrathecal anti-borrelia antibodies (purified flagellum).
Levels of CXCL13, albumin, total IgM and IgG in paired samples and C6 antibodies in CSF were compared across diagnostic groups.
RESULTS: A sensitivity of 99% and a specificity of 96% were achieved for CSF-Serum CXCL13 ratio.
CSF-C6 antibodies performed with a sensitivity of 99% and a specificity of 88.0%.
A combination of CSF-Serum CXCL13 ratio and CSF-C6 antibodies, evaluated in parallel, revealed a sensitivity of 99% and specificity of 98%.
CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms CSF-CXCL13 as a reliable marker of LNB and suggests improved diagnostic performance especially in children with possible LNB. ----------------- .http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19805441 CXCL13 elevations in MS.
http://tinyurl.com/28ldqpu CXCL elevation in Autism. -------------- The only difference may be what all else is hiding in the DNA of the stealth organisms and the body. Thats one thing for sure---we have millions of possibilities and no funds to find out.
Posted by lou (Member # 81) on :
Done in Europe so our CDC will ignore it. Also, this requires a spinal tap which is not going to be popular with anybody. And those of us who don't produce antibodies are not going to be helped by a test that looks for antibodies.
It is encouraging that someone is looking for evidence beyond antibodies, such as the chemokine listed here.
Sweden has a poor record for detecting and treating lyme. A lot of their citizens are leaving the country for treatment.
BTW, I agree that there is probably no such thing as autoimmunity without infection.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I also say that there is probably no such thing as an "autoimmune" assault without infection.
Diabetes is often caused by infection. Heart Disease and many other "conditions" also often have infection connections - if anyone would actually take the time to look.
This book is specific to lyme and other chronic stealth infections.
In addition to outright damage from infection, the author discusses the endocrine connection and effects of STRESS on a person with such infections, raising the caustic stress hormones. In turn, elevated stress hormones can cause a lot of damage.
You can read customer reviews and look inside the book at this link to its page at Amazon.
The Potbelly Syndrome: How Common Germs Cause Obesity, Diabetes, And Heart Disease (Paperback) - 2005
by Russell Farris and Per Marin, MD, PhD -
[ 11-22-2010, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by dyna3495 (Member # 24126) on :
ageed !
Posted by dyna3495 (Member # 24126) on :
agreed!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Topic: Some beleive that Lyme is Autoimmune disease?
About the "Some" -
You know, I've wasted a lot of time because "some" believed this or that and I tried to find details to change their mind. I don't have to prove anything to anyone. We are all to busy too worry about the "some" who just don't get it. Move on to those who do and who can help us with key information and suggestions.
Now, that said, lyme does alter the immune function - but in reverse of what would be expected. Immune DYSFUNCTION is a huge matter for lyme patients. Borrelia causes immune dysfunction as part of the way it operates as a stealth pathogen.
It's the stealth part that "some" don't get when they jump the gun to say that lyme is autoimmune because they don't see the distinctions.
Simply, if thinking in terms of two main immune sub-systems, one part is in overdrive (but ineffective because it can't find what it knows is there because lyme hides and morphs) - and another part is so overwhelmed from trying that it can be nearly shut down. It takes a lyme-educated doctor to know how to gently work with the immune dysfunction caused by lyme.
IMMUNE SUPPORT is still very important, even if the immune problems are caused by infection.
The article below is just one that gets into the basics about Th1 & Th2. This is not specific to lyme but, still, a good basic start for this subject. He does discuss stealth pathogens, in general. Lyme is just one of many "stealth" infections.
A STEALTH infection can be described as hidden from normal processes of detection (or tests are not yet developed) but powerful, destructive and tricky beyond belief. The ability of hiding from the immune system is a prime method of operation for stealth infections.
Sometimes, with cycles of action and dormancy.
"Stealth infection" is not a term that most doctors will be aware of but a term borne of research in the field of CFS and Tick-Borne Infections or Cpn, HHV-6, etc. Usually "stealth" infections are chronic due to the inability (or incompetence) with quick diagnosis. But they are also notorious for being very difficult to treat in the normal way most doctors think or work.
Balance the Th1/Th2 Immune System (From a talk by Paul Cheney, MD)
Excerpt:
. . . He believes this is a very scary situation. Patients are Th2 activated and Th1 suppressed. . . .
. . . The virus deceives the immune system into thinking that the threat is coming from the opposite side! So the immune system shifts from the Th1 mode that attacks viruses to the Th2 mode that does not. The virus increases its chances of survival by diverting the immune system. . . . -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Backing up to the original post -
Q: "Lyme is a Bacteria! So, why would one say it is an autoimmune??" end quote.
Well, the IDSA and CDC (and insurance companies) want us all to go away. They don't WANT to learn more and arrive at a deep understanding. They don't WANT to treat lyme. So, it's easier to say it's autoimmune and send us on our way.
Then - since steroids are the most common treatment for "autoimmune" conditions - they douse "autoimmune patients" with steroids and we get MUCH worse than ever and they can then say it's all just in our heads as they slam the door.
When any patient has trouble with steroids, it then becomes a psychiatric diagnosis because most doctors don't know that steroids feed lyme, etc. (because they don't even believe in lyme or understand its nature).
One interesting note is that for some "autoimmune" disorders like lupus, the use of antimalarial drugs (which also treat babesia, a tick-borne infection that often goes with lyme) are having positive results.
There are a few researchers or Long Ranger doctors who are treating some other autoimmune disorders with trials of antibiotics. Again, when degrees of success are seen, it seems never to be attributed to an undiagnosed stealth infection but to "for some undetermined reason" or other factors.
The rheumatologists and immunologists just can't seem to wrap their collective heads around the complexity of chronic stealth infections.
The complexity of lyme is staggering. Most doctors just don't want to learn - and it does take years to get up to speed even for those who do.
I think it comes down to laziness more than anything. Doctors already trudge through grueling hours in medical school, internships and residencies. I can understand why they don't want to go back to school to learn more - but, as a lyme patient, we are then failed, and my life then fails. We do need more.
And medical school don't teach lyme. This is a huge problem. Oh, some may spend five minutes on it. It should be its own sub-specialty, really.
For most doctors to go to the ILADS site and really study it, well, that's just too far out of the mainstream for them. It's not IDSA. It's not CDC. So, they just take up the same fight and ignore it.
Many good doctors are frustrated with being told they can only spend 10 minutes with a patient. Can't get far in 10 minutes so it's easier to hand steroids out like candy and tell people to just go away. It's easier to believe everything is just an autoimmune problem.
I hope that helps you understand the political nature of all this a bit better. -
Posted by lymednva (Member # 9098) on :
It is possible to have latent Lyme, or Lyme with slowly developing symptoms, so that the other issues develop before you realize you have Lyme.
That was the case for me. I have had it for over 45 years, but was only diagnosed in 2006. Prior to that there were other issues developing, like a multinodular goiter in 1986.
So you could have had Lyme long before it presented obviously to you.
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
Yes lymednva, but then its usually called Alzheimers.
We need so much research into the organisms, virus', parasites that are associated with the borrelia to help figure out what separates the patients with say MS from Lupus...
We must know how the immune system behaves in all, but its hard to get them to do this with us not sick, no funds, and denial by big business we have anything as capable as borrelia on earth...
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Part of the issue with stealth pathogens is that there's a big possibility that they are bio-warfare. Doctor's don't want to deal with this aspect of the equation. I can't really blame them.
Many Lyme doctors are harassed & there's actually about 100 microbiologists who have died suspicious deaths in the recent past.
It doesn't really present a good environment for effective treatment. Some people get lucky & get well but many remain ill despite of treatment.
Alzheimers can also be caused by heavy metal poisoning. Take a look at what they are spraying in the skies on most days...
Thanks Keebler - you always post good info!
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
ScienceDaily (Nov. 23, 2010) � Researchers have found evidence that an environmental pollutant may play an important role in causing multiple sclerosis and that a hypertension drug might be used to treat the disease.
So you reckon we get rid of the stuff borrelia like and in turn reduce our toxic load?
Posted by mojo (Member # 9309) on :
It is listed in the American Autoimmune Society blah blah (cant remember the exact name).... as an autoimmune disease on SOME of their lists.
I got some literature from them. I took their quesionnaire on line and in the drop down for which a/i diseases you have Lyme is listed.
Posted by Bugg (Member # 8095) on :
Hi Jenn-
I think I'm in the minority opinion in that I do think lyme can setoff some sort of immune dysregulation/autoimmune issue....
It's like your body's inflammatory system gets "setoff" and cannot calm down....I don't think they have fully identified the inflammatory cytokines (immune system) markers that lyme sets off....I know there are some researchers at Columbia Tickborne Research Center currently looking into this....
I don't necessarily think that "active" lyme and autoimmunity have to be mutually exclusive concepts....
I think research needs to continue in BOTH areas (active infection and autoimmunity)....
I am one of those patients who never got well after years of treatment with IV and oral abx and HBOT..etc... I know others in this same boat...We are turning to looking for things to calm our immune systems down like LDN, low dose cortef, or higher doses of Vitamin D.....
...Respectfully, I realize this is a minority opinion but I hope you don't mind me sharing my point of view...
Posted by onbam (Member # 23758) on :
That all our symptoms are strictly autoimmune is the official government explanation, and a load of crock. While Lyme can cause autoimmunity, what you most need to treat is still the underlying infection.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I don't really know too much about autoimmune illness. I don't know if that's what I have or if it's from Lyme.
Some of us have been discussing why we don't get colds as much after encountering Lyme. Someone mentioned the LYMErix vaccine & I came across this article which is quite interesting...
This may shed some light on the issue. I don't know. Seems that whatever Lyme is - it does do something to the immune system.
Like I said, I'm not a scientist so this stuff is a bit complicated for me to understand. Some people who got the vaccine did get autoimmune dysfunction which probably relates to Lyme itself somehow.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
fyi-
LYME VACCINE LINKED TO AUTOIMMUNE ARTHRITIS By Alex Otto in the January 200l issue of PHARMACY TODAY
The concerns about arthritis hinge on human leukocyte antigen DR4 (HLA-DR4), a surface protein found on white blood cells in about 10% to 30% of the pop- ulation. It is easily detected by a blood test, but the test costs $300.
A class action lawsuit has been filed against SmithKline by scores of patients who developed severe arthritis after getting the vaccine. The suit alleges that LYMErix triggers degenerative autoimmune disease in HLA-DR4-positive patients and that SmithKline knew of the association before its vaccine was approved but failed to warn doctors.
----
I don't know anything about this "DR4 (HLA-DR4), a surface protein found on white blood cells in about 10% to 30% of the pop- ulation".
This quote was about the vaccine but it also may be something present in Lyme itself. I'll have to do more studying...
Just thought I'd post it here in case anyone has more info.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
The HLA-DR4 gene, which has been associated with rheumatoid arthritis, has also shown involvement in Lyme disease. Lyme disease is caused by a microorganism which is transmitted to humans via deer ticks. Among the symptoms which can develop from Lyme disease are:
joint pain inflammation arthritis
People who have the disease more severely and do not respond well to the antibiotic treatment are more often found to have the HLA-DR4 gene. It has been theorized that once the microorganism moves to the joints, the immune response against it cross reacts with the person's own joint tissue in people who have the HLA-DR4 gene, leading to an autoimmune reaction.