According to what I've seen from dentists on the internet, the spirochetes in the mouth are "indistinguishable by microscope" from Lyme or syphilis. They would have to be cultured out or DNA sequenced to be certain these were actually Lyme.
But, the POINT is that these spirochetes, whatever we call them, DO invade the nerves and brain via the tissues in the mouth.
Keeping the population down seems to me to be a useful habit to cultivate.
Oh, and in Dr. K's recent interview with Dr. Mercola, available at the Mercola website, he does talk a bit about the importance of dental issues in treating Lyme. It's currently not at the top of his "MUST DO THIS NOW" list, but bumping up against it!
I've started....
Best,
Cass A
Posted by Cracker Jack (Member # 34734) on :
Great videos,
thanks for sharing... -------------------------------------
If the federal gov is going after Him, He may in fact be onto something (like helping people)...
Posted by Cracker Jack (Member # 34734) on :
Spirochetes in the mouth. Is there a way to kill them in the mouth that I'm not aware of just yet?
Posted by yanivnaced (Member # 13212) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cracker Jack: Spirochetes in the mouth. Is there a way to kill them in the mouth that I'm not aware of just yet?
An ingredient in the original flavor Listerine is said to dissolve bio-films and kill spirochetes.
Posted by fourwinds (Member # 14114) on :
The first LLMD I went to, looked into my mouth and
said I had "crystalis" (SP) [or something sounding like that] which she sees in Lyme patients
Does anyone else have this?
It's a red "halo-type" marking that runs from the side of my throat, across the top, and back to the other side.
Posted by Lymedin2010 (Member # 34322) on :
This is right from the third link. �Whether or not Dakins is really safe for us Lymies in particular and safe in general is the next question?
"The use of tooth cleaning agents will not remove these spirochetes. The only effective methods we have found is Dakins solution. Vigorous rinses for at least two minutes with Dakins or Dakins in a WaterPic�. The use of the Dakins which is a 20:1 dilution of clorox bleach is by far the most effective technique for killing spirochetes in between the teeth as well as the more accessible areas.
�Tooth pastes are good for cleaning teeth! But this is a different problem entirely. Spirochetes form spores which require daily disinfection of the crevice between the tooth and gum. �The only thing which will dissolve plaque(the vegetative bacteria which cause tooth decay) off a tooth surface without friction is clorox diluted in water at a 20:1 water/clorox ratio.
�This material is cheap effective and absolutely works but no one can sell it to you for a high price, so not one cent of marketing money will be spent to educate the public!"
Receding gums -
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Interesting about the chlorox... I guess you might consider using MMS in a Waterpic...?
I would disregard anything Quackwatch has to say. Mercola has alot of good info but what I don't like is that he also sells products. It's not bad of him to be making money but some of the info he sends out related to what he's peddling.
The thing is - is that you aren't really putting an end to the spirochetes by killing some of them off. You probably have to go deeper & find something that works more systemically.
Posted by Marz (Member # 3446) on :
fourwinds, those are called red crescents or crimson crescents. You can google that + lyme for info.
I have them, but haven't checked lately to see if they're still there.
They're seen in CFS and thought I might have read they're due to epstein-barr that lyme patients carry too, not necessarily Bb.
Not sure about the epstein-barr. too tired to check now.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Salt/c kills them in the mouth.
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
Dear Friends,
According to the thread referenced from Lymein2010, hydrogen peroxide is also effective except for two things: 1) the thread states that it is not "safe" for long term use (but doesn't say why) and 3) apparently, according to this thread, only Dakins solution gets rid of the biofilms that form in the mouth.
Since chlorine gas is also toxic (I even have a filter on my shower to take it out), I'm not going there yet, but am using a hydrogen peroxide mouthwash. It may not be enough, but it is a start. I got a commercially produced one at my local Whole Foods. I also got a concentrated food-grade hydrogen peroxide at my local health food store, and plan to make my own DILUTED hydrogen peroxide mouthwash when the expensive commercial stuff runs out.
Since these same oral spirochetes are found in the brains of Altzheimers patients, I also send this material to my neurologist. Too bad the medical and dental profession guys don't talk to each other.....
Best,
Cass A
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
Oh--and a question to glm1111--
What evidence do you have or have you personally seen that Salt/C destroys these spirochetes in the mouth? Do you have a microscope that's sensitive enough to see these? Have you taken cultures from your own mouth before and after a use of Salt/C?
Do you have the data from a dentist that has done these steps?
I'd LOVE for this to be true! As someone with Lyme for a long time, I really need to see evidence that is credible before launching into a treatment modality.
Please help me with this!
Best,
Cass A
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Here is what came pouring out of my body and into the toilet after using salt/c. [URL=http://www.lymephotos.]www.lymephotos.com
The parasites go into osmotic shock (dehydrates them) and they run for the hills. I also had smaller ones exiting from my mouth.
There is a good explanation about the efficacy of sea salt and borrelia also killing cysts at lymestrategies. Data from a dentist? You're kidding, right?
Salt/c has been very effective for myself and lots of other people. Salt is the oldest antibacterial on earth Do The research. This is my experience. It's up to you whether you want to try it or not.
Gael
[ 12-05-2011, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: glm1111 ]
Posted by WPinVA (Member # 33581) on :
So, if BB is present in the saliva can it be transmitted by saliva? Kissing, sharing a water bottle, etc.?
Posted by lymeboy (Member # 24769) on :
I was just at the dentist today and he showed me a saliva sample under his microscope. There were what looked like a bunch of bugger swimming around, but he said that I was actually on the clean side of normal.
I asked about Borellia and he said that he was not someone to identify different bacterias by name, but he showed me a few different variations that looked spiral shaped. Also, he said that it could be a different type of spirochete or not a spirochete at all.
Interesting that I saw this post...
Posted by ChuckG (Member # 19093) on :
What is new?
1912 or earlier.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
The spirochetes may not actually be Bb... There are other spirochetes that cause disease.
One of the major findings on a slide is the amoeba. The specific type of amoeba found in an unhealthy plaque sample is called Entamoeba gingivalis. It is a one celled protozoan parasite, and is found in 100% of infected periodontal pockets. These single cell protozoan parasites are about ten times the size of a white blood cell. Entamoeba gingivalis has even been found in the lungs and tonsils. These parasites eat red blood cells and white blood cells. It is thought that as the white blood cell disintegrates, enzymes are released. And it is also thought that these enzymes are the cause of bone destruction.
Spirochetes
Spirochetes are the other major type of bacteria that we look for under the microscope. These are corkscrew type, snake-like bacteria. Although there are different types of spirochetes, the one in the mouth is called Treponema Denticola. As an aside, the spirochete called Treponema Pallidum cause syphilis and another type of spirochete called Borellia Burgdorferei causes Lyme disease. All three types of spirochetes are bad guys. But in terms of periodontal microscopic assessment we are concerned when we find the spirochete Treponema Denticola, which has been shown to be associated with periodontal disease.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
More from the same site as above-
When patients have a "bad" slide, special precautions are taken in our office. Prior to the hygienists use of instruments to clean under the gum, the hygienist will irrigate under the gums with iodine. This is to help prevent a bacteremia (increase of bacteria in the blood stream). Iodine kills bacteria and amoeba. The hygienist will again use iodine after the scaling.
More important than what the hygienist is doing is what you are doing on a daily basis.
We've all been taught that brushing and flossing are the pillars of good home care, this is true - up to a point. Flossing is good for breaking up the bacterial colonies at the contact point where one tooth abuts against another. However, floss cannot really get under the gum if there is any sort of pocket. The best way to do this is with an irrigating device. In our office we have patients place a natural product called Tooth & Gum Concentrate (see newsletter on Natural Oral Hygiene Products) in the reservoir of an irrigating device and irrigate before going to bed.
Culturing bacteria from the pocket is sometimes used for very stubborn cases followed by an appropriate antibiotic which is indicated from the testing. As mentioned before, host resistance is a key part of treatment. Often hair (trace mineral analysis) and blood analysis will be done.
Supplementation is helpful, especially the use of natural vitamin C, and co-enzyme Q10, and use of Thymus and Cat's Claw to boost the immune system. Many of the patients I see are coming to me because they are sick. As treatment progresses and their immune systems improve, a healthy mouth follows. Of course, treating infection of the gums is helpful in eliminating a large stress factor.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
PS - we can't just assume that because one may have a specific spirochete in the gum that Borellia Burgdorferei is inherent throughout the body & that it's communicable.
Borellia Burgdorferei is very different than syphilis or probably other spirochetes.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
More thoughts...
How about colloidal silver?
There are also a number of herbs &/or essential oils that are know to kill bacteria. I was just reading about corriander oil. I'm sure alot of other essential oils may be useful for this purpose, too. I guess that's why people have used Listerine for so long - oil of thyme & eucalyptus. People have also used myhrr & goldenseal for oral health. There are probably all kinds of herbs to explore.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Here is the link to the site that i tried posting above. www.lymephotos.com Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
Dear glm111,
Thank you so very much for your personal story about the use of Salt/C and the links!! This is exactly the kind of data I need!
Well, apparently some dentists are using microscopes to see what kinds of bacteria are in people's mouths and where they are concentrated. One dentist, on finding that spirochetes are found in the mouths AND BRAINS of people with different types of chronic diseases is now on a campaign to educate patients and the medical field. Sorry I forgot his name. I think you can locate him via the links at the recent threads about dental care.
I don't know if different species of spirochetes can be reliably differentiated with a microscope only. One dentist's post relating to videos of oral spirochetes said they could not. The post just above from Sparkle 7 claims that they can be, and that dentists are "only concerned" with the type known to cause periodontal disease.
Anyone have more data about this??? Can a person tell which type of spirochete they are looking at through a microscope??
Best,
Cass A
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
There's controvercy about this subject (like everything else Lyme-related)...
Spirochetes are usually much longer than they are wide, and often their width is below the resolving power of the light microscope. For example, Borrelia may have a length of 20-30um but a width of only 0.2-0.3um. Hence, most spirochetes cannot be viewed using conventional light microscopy. Dark-field microscopy must be used to view spirochetes. Dark field microscopy utilizes a special condenser which directs light toward an object at a angle, rather than from the bottom. As a result, particles or cells are seen as light objects against a dark background.
---
I studied it a while back but I believe there are big differences between the varieties of spirochetes. I think I read somewhere that Bb is like 100 X more complex than the spirochete that causes syphilis.
I think when Craig Ventnor was first deciphering DNA, Bb was one of the first bacteria that was studied... Makes one think...
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
With all these people studying it all of these years, one would think more would be known about it by now...
Major Differences Found Between the Genomes of Oral Pathogen Treponema denticola and Related Spiral-Shaped Bacteria that Cause Syphilis and Lyme Disease
Spirochete has been studied for a long time. They were also weaponized by the Japanese during WW2. One would think more would be known to help people on a practicle level by now.
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