This is topic It was YEAST - not the babesia... in forum Medical Questions at LymeNet Flash.


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Posted by Bitten in Bergen (Member # 34067) on :
 
So, after trial and error, my llmd and i finally figured out why I was so profoundly fatigued all the time.

Even though I do have babesia and am on malarone, we found that after a pulse of diflucan that my brain fog and fatigue were drastically improved. Surprise, surprise!

Unfortunately, it was only a 2 week course, and now the various itching in various places is returning, along with the fatigue.

I've been doing the natural anti-fungal rotation and have adopted an anti-candida diet, but clearly it hasn't done a thing. Only the diflucan is strong enough.

Has anyone been on long term diflucan while taking oral abx? Are there any other options?
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
YEAST is very very sneaky! A word of warning for EVERYONE. Do all in your power to avoid it!

You could try taking Nystatin daily once you get the yeast knocked down. (you could take both)
 

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Posted by Bitten in Bergen (Member # 34067) on :
 
Nystatin tablets or liquid?
 

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Posted by xoxoxox (Member # 18778) on :
 
Can you buy Nystatin over the counter?
 

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Posted by happydaychick (Member # 37799) on :
 
What exactly is the natural anti-fungal rotation? Thanks!
 

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Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
 
Nystatin is a prescription.

Usually lyme docs give the pills. If you are given the liquid, be sure it doesn't have sugar in it. If it does, don't buy it. Sugar feeds yeast.

An anti-candida diet is necessary to keep yeast away. This diet takes away the "food" the yeast needs. Once you get candida, you will need diflucan to kill it. Docs don't like to give it for extended periods of time, but you can take it off and on.

You can also try oil of oregano. (Buy it in a health food store.) Put a few drops in an ounce or so of water, swish it in your mouth for a minute or so (burns a little), then swallow it. Do this 2-3 times per day.

Read Burrascano's way of clearing yeast from the mouth. That is where it starts, and then with every swallow, you put it in your intestinal tract.

While you are on antibiotics, you may not be totally able to get rid of the yeast. That's the way it was with one friend of mine. Then, your goal is just to keep it down to a manageable level.

I was always able to clear yeast with a 3-5 day course of Diflucan. But, not everybody can.
 

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Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
 
The take-away message for those starting out is: go on the anti-candida diet as soon as you start antibiotics. This gives you the best chance of avoiding yeast.

Do not cheat on the diet! Especially if you are on flagyl (metronidazole).

Once you get yeast during lyme treatment, it can be a never-ending battle trying to get rid of it. It is much better to try to avoid this problem entirely.

Yeast can make a person as sick as lyme disease.
 

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Posted by WPinVA (Member # 33581) on :
 
This is a timely post as I just logged on to get some more ideas about how to control yeast. I have had yeast issues since last November but I have been able to keep them manageable with a few days of Diflucan plus strong probiotics.

My problem is that the Diflucan doesn't seem to be working any more. I know I need to do better on diet (working on that). Is there anything else I can do to get it under control and stay on abx? Or do I have to take a abx break?
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
The symptoms of candida closely mimic Lyme. It is definitely possible that some are continuing to treat Lyme due to persistent symptoms when in fact they have candida ......

[ 03-05-2013, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Ellen101 ]
 

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Posted by tickled1 (Member # 14257) on :
 
I think this happens more often than not.
 

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Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
 
Hmmmm. That may be me. I'm treating lyme and babesia for a few years. I take nystatin daily, and my doctor did give me some diflucan to try, but I was timid. Maybe, it's time to try this.

I always feel worse the day after eating sugary foods.

It's surely somthing to try. Thanks.
 

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Posted by feelfit (Member # 12770) on :
 
Try Lufeneron. It kills yeast and has activity on parasites and aspergillis mold. Some lyme docs are using this now.

I just did one round and it packed a wallop. Doesn't damage your liver either. The die-off may overload your liver thought
 

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Posted by feelfit (Member # 12770) on :
 
BTW, anti-fungals should always be rotated to prevent resistance and ideally, 2 anti-fungals should be combined. Example: Lufeneron and Nystatin.
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ellen101:
The symptoms of candida closely mimic Lyme. It is definitely possible that some are continuing to treat Lyme due to persistent symptoms when in fact they have candida ......

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quote:

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Originally posted by feelfit:
Try Lufeneron. It kills yeast and has activity on parasites and aspergillis mold. Some lyme docs are using this now.

I just did one round and it packed a wallop. Doesn't damage your liver either. The die-off may overload your liver thought

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quote:

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Originally posted by happydaychick:
What exactly is the natural anti-fungal rotation? Thanks!

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Originally posted by Razzle:

Essential oils need to be medical grade, otherwise they may not be safe to take internally. Most health food stores do NOT stock medical grade essential oils.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lymetoo:


Aren't fermented foods for candida supposed to be GOOD for us?? My health coach wants me to try them but I have little tolerance for spicy stuff.

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Yes, foods fermented with probiotic organisms are good - such as sourkraut, etc.

It is stuff fermented with yeast that is a problem...such as alcoholic beverages.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
I wish I could "like" posts here. Good info. Razzle, I've never really thought about it that way.
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
I eat kimchi a lot, love the stuff. I have a really hard time sometimes figuring out if my symptoms are from candida or my gluten allergy...its hard to follow both diets..
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
Ellen, I think they go hand in hand. Gluten causes intestinal permeability, or leaky gut, and then yeast, which is normally contained in our digestive tract gets into the bloodstream through the gut wall. If you're eliminating wheat and gluten 100% (and casein too, because casein can be toxic to the gut as well) then it should help heal your gut and get everything under control.

The book Body Ecology Diet goes into all of this and teaches you how to heal your gut. I think she says to stay away from the spicy stuff initially though, until your gut heals some. But my point is that the gluten can cause or contribute to Candida via. intestinal permeability aka leaky gut.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
I have harder time with sugar than I do wheat/gluten. If you cut out gluten first, say, for a few weeks, it is MUCH easier to get off sugar.
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
Ellen.. I follow both diets plus no dairy, no soy and no corn. It can be done. I'm pretty tired of it, but I must eat this way or I feel really lousy.

Thanks, Razzle. I wondered what you meant!!

I don't like sauerkraut either, but I could force myself to eat it if it would get rid of my candida!!

Anybody have a good recipe for sauerkraut? The reason I mentioned "spicy" is that many sites sell packages of starters for making fermented foods. They all look spicy.
 

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Posted by birdie67 (Member # 35994) on :
 
Whole foods carries a few raw sauerkrauts in the refrigerated section. They are all really good.

Also, Kombucha is good for your gut.

You can make both at home, I have never done it though.
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
Lymetoo what does your day look like in terms of meals snacks?

I'm confused about the sauerkraut. I've seen it in bags and bottle in the market but was afraid of the additives..
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
I was making my own kombucha but it had too much sugar for me. My yeast is really bad.

Ellen..

breakfast is spinach in coconut oil, add 2 scrambled eggs

Lunch is a smoothie with 1/2 avocado, coconut milk plus water, hemp powder, parsley, spinach, and ginger root. I was adding stevia and blueberries but cannot do that anymore due to the sugar.

Nuts for an afternoon snack or 1/2 avocado. Sometimes I eat a few bites of spinach or a some salad greens too.

Supper.. fish or chicken and broccoli, or other vegetable

Boring!!
 

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Posted by birdie67 (Member # 35994) on :
 
You need to eat the RAW sauerkraut. Not the processed ones on the shelf. The raw ones are unprocessed and full of natural probiotics from the fermentation.

The Body Ecology Diet says 1/2 cup with each meal is best.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
If you do 1/2 cup with each meal you will be rockin' it! If you make your own, you can make it without salt while it's fermenting, as Body Ecology Diet suggests, and you'll have a ton of probiotics in it.

Putting salt on it before you eat it helps with the taste. It's an acquired taste. After you try it a few times it starts to grow on you.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
Sauerkraut also helps with sugar cravings.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
This place sells good cultured vegetables, but it's expensive. Much cheaper to make your own.

It might give you some ideas of ingredients you'd like to throw in, though.
http://www.rejuvenative.com/categories/Raw-Cultured-Vegetables/
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
I think what is frustrating is when I think I'm eating the right thing but then I feel so awful afterwards. Tonight for dinner I had roasted chicken seasoned with garlic and Italian seasonings, quinoa seasoned with the same and some peas. The lower abdominal gas pains have been awful. What did I do wrong ????
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
Ellen, probably the Italian seasonings.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
You just haven to evaluate every little thing and if in doubt, call the company who made the product.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
I'm sorry, I was thinking more like a season salt, maybe it wasn't the Italian seasoning. It could be the food combination. She also goes into this in the Body Ecology Book how to combine foods properly for good digestion. She says not to eat starches with protein. So it may have been that. The body ecology author has a website where you can search her articles. good info. www.bodyecology.com

There are 7 principles to the diet.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
If you'll scroll down the link, it explains about the starches and proteins here:

http://bodyecology.com/articles/principle-food-combining-meat-without-bread.php
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
Thanks girl! I just ordered the ebook. I noticed a lot of the reviews were positive, but a lot felt she self promotes her products too much. Did you order her products?

The Italian seasoning was just the McCormick seasoning. Perhaps you are right combining the veg, protein, starch may have been the issue???

I will probably have to order the paper version in order to highlight the dos and donts....
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
That is awesome you ordered the book! Yes, highlighting is definitely in order. It might seem like a lot of info. at first, but it's really good info. and she really knows her stuff.

I know what you mean about the advertising and the products. One thing is, I DO trust her products, they are good quality from my experience. (And I would probably do the same thing if I were in her position.. )

I've got the starter, the minerals and the digestive enzymes. I love my digestive enzymes.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
Bitten in Bergen - I have taken tons of Diflucan here and there and now I have gotten to the point I have more die off from not eating sugar, and with eating the sauerkraut, than I do with Diflucan.

Be careful with the Diflucan and pay attention to your liver. If you have extreme fatigue with Diflucan it could indicate acute liver failure.

If I take Diflucan, I take a liquid Milk Thistle tincture to support my liver at the same time.
 

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Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
 
Ellen, it was the peas (sugar/starch).
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
Catgirl, why do you think it was the peas? Frozen?
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
Here is a nice list: http://www.glutenfreegluten.com/wp-content/downloads/Hidden_Gluten_Sources.pdf
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
Just looked at my allergy list, allergic to peas, I should have checked before hand..
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
Thanks for the list girl. I have been drinking almond milk and I see it is on the list for containing gluten...
I'm really confused as I'm looking at the book what to eat with what....for lunch I took some quinoa and rolled it in nori I, I'm still hungry....dinner everyone elseis having corned beef and cabbage, hmmmm guess that's a big no-no
Breakfast will be tough. I usually just have Audi's gluten free waffle, but now I'm not sure all the ingredients meet the criteria..I can't have eggs due to allergies.
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
girl.. Do you have a link for how to make sauerkraut?

I haven't the foggiest.
 

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Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
 
Peas are high in starch (feeds yeast).
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
Yes! Just type in the words Donna Gates on You Yube and you'll find videos on it.

You don't have to use a "starter." It will still ferment if you don't, but the starter will make it super potent.

Donna is also one of the few that suggests NOT using salt while fermenting.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
Ellen, I think that list of hidden sources of gluten is "possible" hidden sources, so I can't say for sure whether your almond milk has it. I will tell you though that a lot of almond milks have carrageenan as an ingredient and this can mess people's stomach up. I don't know the specifics on HOW, but I remember hearing about that, so it would be good if your almond milk doesn't have that - and if it does, you might want to read up on it? since you sound real sensitive.

In the BED book, Donna says to soak and peel almonds first as they're easier to digest this way, by removing that outer layer, it has some type of acid or something in the peeling.

Same goes for quinoa. I'm assuming you're soaking it first and then rinsing it really well before you cook it, right?

I know one person that is so sensitive that can't handle quinoa. Glad I'm not one of those people! as far as I know.

For breakfast, you can always do veggies, or a salad. Not the traditional breakfast, I know, but now that I've cut out wheat I get hungrier a lot later.
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
The quinoa I buy says it is pre washed, no rinsing needed....the almond milk does have carrageenan...

I must be super sensitive....very discouraging...
 

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Posted by Ellen101 (Member # 35432) on :
 
Girl, I just read up on the carrageenan, wow very interesting.
http://ohsheglows.com/2013/01/07/carrageenan-in-our-food/

Turns out my coconut milk has carrageenan too!
http://www.cornucopia.org/shopping-guide-to-avoiding-organic-foods-with-carrageenan/
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
Thanks, girl!
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
I would still soak and rinse that quinoa, Ellen. ((if your quinoa was truly soaked, seems like it would have sprouted)) Even 15 minutes of soaking will do, then rinse it well. Don't get too discouraged, you can come back from this.

I don't want to you to get discouraged when you get the BED book because the BED diet is *really* hard to do full on, 100%. It is meant to bring people back from really bad cases of life threatening Candida. That fungus is so stubborn, it can wrap itself around the spinal cord.

But my point is there are 3 stages to the diet with one being the hardest so you can sort of justify how strict you need to be depending on where you are.

The good thing about it is that we can do something about it and just because we are allergic to a certain food now, does not mean we will always be! She goes into this in the book as well...

I hear that almond milk is super easy to make yourself, if you get to a place you want to do that. The way I look at this is one step at a time. The first thing for me was cutting out wheat and gluten.

Once I had that under my belt, I cut out sugar and when I had a sugar craving, it was no big deal at all and I was able to resist the temptation very easily, for the fact I'd cut out wheat first. Then I worked on dairy (CHEESE my fav, but now it grosses me out)...

On the other hand, when I tried to cut out sugar before I was GF it was horrible. The withdrawals were WAY worse and I was fighting the temptation badly all the time and it was just HARD.

The first thing the BED book is going to tell you though is to cut out all forms of sugar, but before you start the BED diet full on, I would try to have sauerkraut and things like that she suggests in the book, to have that on hand or whatever food you might need -because that is going to help you the most is having that food available. (If you decide to do the diet.)

Sorry, I know I'm rambling. Just trying to think of what might help!
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
PS> You're welcome Toots! And yes, my friend PREACHES on that carrageenan!!
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
This one right here does not have gluten or carrageenan.

http://www.iherb.com/Tree-of-Life-Original-Almond-Beverage-Unsweetened-32-fl-oz-946-ml/42620?gclid=CLHkodDNhLYCFc5AMgodJ3MAcg
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
Dang .. I've been drinking coconut milk and it has carrageenan. I just bought two qts of it the other day! I've been putting it in my smoothies.

Does her book have a sauerkraut recipe?

PS .. I found her video but it wasn't very good. Can't really follow that.

Here is one I found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmWiRJxlETY


I still need something instead of a whey-based starter though.
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
______________

Two of Our Favorite Beginners' Recipes

Version 1
3 heads green cabbage, shredded in a food processor
1 bunch kale, chopped by hand
(optional): 2 cups wakame ocean vegetables (measured after soaking), drained, spine removed, and chopped
1 Tbsp. dill weed

Verison 2
3 heads green cabbage, shredded in a food processor
6 carrots, large, shredded in a food processor
3 inch piece ginger, peeled and chopped
6 cloves garlic, peeled and chopped

To Make Cultured Vegetables
1. Combine all ingredients in a large bowl

2. Remove several cups of this mixture and put into a blender.

3. Add enough filter3ed water to make a "brine" the consistency of a thick juice. Blend well and then add brine back into the first mixture. Stir well.

4. Pack mixture down into a glass or stainless steel container. Use your fist, a wooden dowel, or a potato masher to pack veggies tightly.

5. Fill container almost full, but leave about 2 inches of room at the top for veggies to expand.

6. Roll up several cabbage leaves into a tight "log" and place them on top to fill the remaining 2 inch space. Clamp jar closed.

7. Let veggies sit at about a 70 degree room temperature for at least three days. A week is even better. Refrigerate to slow down fermentation. Enjoy!

[ 03-17-2013, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: girl ]
 

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Posted by girl (Member # 18022) on :
 
.

[ 03-17-2013, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: girl ]
 

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Posted by terv (Member # 29410) on :
 
Bitten,

Did you ever discover what was causing your fatigue? Is it definitely yeast?
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
More on carrageenan...

http://www.cornucopia.org/carrageenan-2013/
 

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Posted by Bitten in Bergen (Member # 34067) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by girl:
Bitten in Bergen - If I take Diflucan, I take a liquid Milk Thistle tincture to support my liver at the same time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by terv:
Bitten,

Did you ever discover what was causing your fatigue? Is it definitely yeast?

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Hi Terv - the original fatigue (and brain fog) was definitely from yeast. The more recent fatigue (while on diflucan) was from going off the abx. Also had bart symptoms emerge, too.

Back on minocycline and fatigue is not as bad. Until I can get rifampin added in from my llmd tomorrow, I started banderol, since I've read that it is part of Cowden's bart protocol.

Cool thing is that I've already started to herx (yes - I'm actually HAPPY about that )

So now I've got herxing plus mild fatigue (in all fairness, I was in overdrive this weekend, and I still am amazed that I was able to be so productive for a change. Yay!

But it's definitely a process of discovery and trial and error, since so many things can cause the same symptoms and it's hard to tease everything apart unless you try different things...Yikes!

Interestingly, the banderol gave me great anxiety and insomnia last night, but when I woke up this morning (even though I was tired), I had a very positive outlook. And that isn't usually me! It has continued throughout the day today.

Plus, it seems my constant hunger has abated as well! Banderol again? Hope so! Go figure!
 

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Posted by [email protected] (Member # 40097) on :
 
Ironically, I looked at this thread cuz of babs and Malarone withdrawal. I began my Lyme journey w/Candida. In 'Feb. '12 (after Valentine's Day!) I noticed my head/eyes drooping during conversation. Never one to be fatigued unless sick, I knew something was very wrong. I also had a strange stench in my nose that only I could smell.

After 26 yrs. of disabling pain and various sxs, I was finally dx'd Bb 6/12. At this point I'd been on a strict Candida diet along w/Diflucan for several mos., as well as a strong dose of Nystatin. I began abx for Lyme, then Lymetutu said it sounded like I had babs and that I MUST treat immediately. I asked my Dr. to treat, she put me on Malarone 3 pills bid. The 1st week I was so very, very sick from it: short of breath, extreme nausea, etc. my doc had me do an ultrasound for gall bladder. I had to go off of Mal. cuz I couldn't handle fat. After gb removal I went back to Mal. high dose.

It helped my middle back pain and returned my voice (which had been gone for most of a decade). I was on it for 6 straight mos. I've just asked to go off of it cuz of extreme nausea and the stench which has worsened. My LLMD suggested I go off of Mal. for a few days and see what happens. I've been off since last night (missed 3 doses now). The nausea has been a bit better, but the stench is horrendous, and my stomach/digestion is awful.

I'd always leaned toward constipation, now I'm having 2-4 loose stools/day. It's messy and depleting, and I never feel quite right. I'm thinking it may be yeast, although I've remained on a VERY strict diet (even stopped fruit for a couple mos.), no sugar, yeast, vinegar, etc. since Feb. '11. After reading Stymie's post I'm thinking I need to address the yeast once and for all.

I had my fillings removed in '89 which got me up out of a wheelchair- had been very careful w/metals since, but tested positive for lead. Have been on DMSA for that since last April.

I'm afraid of stopping the Mal. before the bugs are gone, but I know that it encourages yeast growth too. I have written to the group at large since I managed to finally re-register when it kept spewing me out after the site change. I've never gotten any response. Sitting at the computer is hard for me (pain), I can't get the group on my phone or I would.

My husband and I are both on this tx w/this LLMD. I think he has yeast too but won't admit it. We've both lost lots of muscle, we look like scarecrows!

Anyway, I'd like to know these things:
1. Does anyone else deal w/a stench in the nostrils which worsens w/extra carb intake?

2. Do you think that babs can be removed with yeast in the system?

Please address the group and PM me if possible so I can read responses through Email.

cmomlq

Cipro 500mg bid
Azith 500/day
Ketoconazole bid
Gris-Peg/day (anti-fungal)
Methylation genetic problem- can't digest foods
On allergy drops for: Candida, T3, Molds- all 7 (live in mold-free house now), Trees/weeds
7 food allergies including cane sugar
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
cmom... You need to begin your own thread or no one will see this.. or at least very few will see it.

Many on this board (over the years) have treated infections in their sinuses. Hard to know if yours is from yeast or bacteria unless you get it cultured.

Why not try artemisinin and zith for the babs? Sure finished my babs off!

Be sure not to eat simple carbs or white foods .. and yes, NO FRUIT!!

(PM sent)
 

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Posted by Bitten in Bergen (Member # 34067) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by girl:
Bitten in Bergen - I have taken tons of Diflucan here and there and now I have gotten to the point I have more die off from not eating sugar, and with eating the sauerkraut, than I do with Diflucan.

Be careful with the Diflucan and pay attention to your liver. If you have extreme fatigue with Diflucan it could indicate acute liver failure.

If I take Diflucan, I take a liquid Milk Thistle tincture to support my liver at the same time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by terv:
Bitten,

Did you ever discover what was causing your fatigue? Is it definitely yeast?

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