Yeah, like I am sure that is going to happen. I have heard quite the opposite response from many of my local doctors.
Sounds like another scare tactic to me. I have a cousin in Iowa that is a doctor and his wife is one too. My cousin is an ER doctor and he says he can't wait to have reform so that so many uninsured ppl don't have to come through the ER which costs us all more money.
I have multiple friends that are doctors and none of them have said this, in fact they all agree we need reform.
I have one friend in upstate NY that is a doctor and she also practices acupuncture and she can't wait for reform. She has to turn ppl away who don't have a plan.
So sorry, but I don't really buy this one.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
PS HMMM, wonder who predominately supports Investor Daily the ppl who wrote the article??????
Think about it.
I think I would trust the American Medical Association over PPL who invest heavily in Wall Street(Think Corporate America)
[ 09-17-2009, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: liesandmorelies ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
-
Well, you know there are a lot of doctors who should not be working as doctors. Maybe they got into it for the wrong reasons.
For the MANY good doctors who are battered by the system, I hope that a new system might give them the freedom they need to be the best doctors possible. If insurance companies could deny no claims, wouldn't doctors have more time to better treat patients?
-
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
AMEN Keebler!!!!!
Everything is not about money. Especially my health and yours =)
Ps I have a very good friend who is a PT and he is sick and tired of the Insurance company's only allowing their patients to get 24 visits per year. They dictate everything, so from that point he can't wait for reform and is hoping this reform bill will just get the ball rolling.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
and 65% of doctors oppose the health care reform as it now stands.
Then there will be the sudden increased demand for twice as many drs as we now have. Makes you wonder how it could possibly work.
Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
Given the press isn't a free press anymore, they can be bought. Why don't we just survey our doctors and see how they stand. I'm curious about the truth and I sure don't trust the media any longer.
what do y'all think?
Posted by sutherngrl (Member # 16270) on :
My son-in-law is a doctor and he said he is leaning toward finding a new career if the health care passes.
I don't think he is alone!
Posted by coltman (Member # 21272) on :
quote: For the MANY good doctors who are battered by the system, I hope that a new system might give them the freedom they need to be the best doctors possible. If insurance companies could deny no claims, wouldn't doctors have more time to better treat patients?
Umm I am pretty sure if anything docs will be harassed a lot more. They wont be able to do tests, nor the treatment which are not bureaucratically approved - right now you still can (somewhat) ,especially if you pay out of pocket, with regulations it would be considered criminally "wasteful spending" and prohibited and persecuted
Posted by sammy (Member # 13952) on :
We all want health care reform but the doctors that I know do not like what is currently proposed.
Yes, things need to change but we don't need to give the government control of our health care too.
An ER doctor that I know told me that he gets paid $2 dollars for seeing a medicare/medicaid patient. He works in a level 1 trauma center. He said that he can spend hours taking care of a critically ill/injured person and yet he will only earn $2 for all his hard work. McDonalds employees earn more than that in one hour!
I know several pediatricians and family practice doctors too. They told me that medicare/medicaid does not even pay them for check-ups or physicals. They spend 30min to an hour with a patient but they do not get paid. They know that they will not be reimbursed but they still perform physicals because they know that it is in the best interest of the patient. They know how important prevention is. Why does the government expect our doctors to work for free?
Medicare and medicaid also deny coverage all the time for imaging, procedures, and medications. They want to get by with paying as little money as possible even if it sacrifices the patients health and well being.
My insurance company is a pain but they are not nearly as bad as the current government run plans.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by sammy:
Yes, things need to change but we don't need to give the government control of our health care too. ...............
Medicare and medicaid also deny coverage all the time for imaging, procedures, and medications. They want to get by with paying as little money as possible even if it sacrifices the patients health and well being.
Exactly.
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
I had a class reunion this past weekend. My G/F and 2 of my close friends have the grades to get into medical school and 2 have already been accepted. They have changed their minds now. All are going business now.
We are going to add another 50 million people to the system and doctor numbers are going down. Get ready for long wait lines and rationed care. Us lymies already know how that feels.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
Doctors have told me they will consider dentistry.
Posted by Ocean (Member # 3496) on :
It doesn't surprise me. I think the 'new and improved' healthcare system is going to be a disaster!
As an RN (but haven't worked in 3 years now)...what is going to happen to the nursing shortage?? They will need many more doctors...but nurses are already in a huge shortage. Without nurses, there is no hospital care because that's what they do.
I wish someone would actually do the math and present it to Mr. President. Perhaps he would be look it over and 'see' what will happen before it's too late!
Ocean
Posted by gridmonster (Member # 19280) on :
My primary care doctor is currently planning to leave medicine, as are two others in his 5 doctor office
if this nightmare passes. I asked him two days ago face to face. Take that any way that you want.
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
quote:Originally posted by luvs2ride: Doctors have told me they will consider dentistry.
Consider it for what, a toothache?
Or do you think they are going to commit themselves to quitting their practices, returning to school, and then taking many years to build a dental practice?
This seems pretty unlikely to me.
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
Let's look on the bright side, maybe Wormser, Shapiro, and the rest of the fellas will throw in the towel.
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
Hey, what's that?
Wait, look up!!!
The sky's falling....
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
Last month, my primary is no longer accepting any form of insurance. He said most of his patients were Medicare/Medicaid and they were not paying up. I guess it is not a bad idea.
Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
Its important in any health care that doctors again work for the best interest of the patient. Not some beaurecratic dictated procedure. The human body is way too complicated.
The next health care system has to be doctor friendly!!! It also has to deal with Medical Review Boards which have ruined many a good doctor's career.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Lets face it, we all know how many horrible doctors are out there that don't take us seriously, perhaps this will weed out the bad ones and we will get ppl to get into this profession for the right reasons.
Unless my doctors and PT's are lying they are ready and support reform and they feel like the 47million that don't have insurance need a plan so they don't just keep going through the ER which costs us all millions each and every year.
This will also bring them more business, not less. So from that point, I have to believe the American Medical Association that states that doctors support the plan.
I actually believe in the very near future you will see more ppl go into medicine as the demand goes up.
People complain about a government plan, but they are okay with a dictatorship plan that their private insurance runs(they already dictate what the patient gets anyway).
but hey, if your happy with your plan you will be able to keep it.
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
The ratio of supply of doctors to the number of people in the country dictates the prices. The only way to knock prices down is increase the supply of doctors for greater competition and availability.
For cheaper insurance, allow them to compete across state lines. Some states have little as 3 insurance providers so competition sucks and the prices are very high. (This was put in place by government) There are some insurance companies I would really like to switch my business coverage over to in a neighboring state but I am not allowed.
quote:Originally posted by nomoremuscles: Let's look on the bright side, maybe Wormser, Shapiro, and the rest of the fellas will throw in the towel.
Au contraire - those would be the only one left. You wont have any good docs left whatsoever. I bet they will also make self treating almost impossible by banning mail order meds and heavily cracking down on supplements (check what they trying to do in Canada now)
Posted by gridmonster (Member # 19280) on :
I'll let blogger Billy Beck distill this argument:
"That would be more than three hundred fifty thousand doctors stepping-out, kids: finally come
to their senses. Try to understand: these are producers of an economic good, just like you. They
do what they do for all the same reasons that you do what you do -- plus a couple that most of you
(and I) don't have, like exceptional drive and intellect devoted to a horrendously demanding and
consequential field of endeavor. Their lives are businesses, just like yours, and they will not
produce just because people "need" them anymore than your local car guy will produce a
transmission-swap into your car or the grocer will produce fresh tomatoes into your diet or the local
(or even federal) commissar will produce a new pair of snake-skin boots for yo momma just because
of an arbitrary claim from "need": none of this stuff -- including medicine -- grows on trees, and
all of it is therefore subject to the same reality-bound laws of human production. Slaves do
not produce. (Corollary: all would do well to consider the instant implications of attempting to
violate this fact in the case of medicine. Realize what we're talking about putting in the
hands of zombies.) These people see what's coming They all should have stopped all work on
government demand long ago, but one might reasonably hope that some basic lessons will be
he's got it
Posted by Need Lots of Help (Member # 18603) on :
Ok, why when someone disagrees with the Healthcare Reform why does it always rebutted by saying, "More Scare Tactics"? I am so sick of hearing that. I think that it is exactly the other way around....the government is trying to scare the public into going for this reform.
They all say they want a bipartisian solution, but they can't come to one.
I repeat that I would like everyone to have insurance; HOWEVER, the biggest reason I oppose this reform is because of how the government runs their other "businesses", whatever you want to call it they are all broke and being taken advantage of.
And, all of my doctors, and I have quite a few of them (LLMD, Fibro/Fatigue, Pulmonologist, Neurologist, Allergist, ENT, PCP, daughter's pediatricin) NONE of them want this reform. Many of them are already having to practice by a guideline in fear of being sued.
This is becoming such an aggravating topic.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
I am very interested in knowing why some people trust a group of politicians so much. You act as though the govt plan is going to pay for everything and all the corruption will just disappear.
Upon what evidence do you base that thinking?
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
quote:Originally posted by luvs2ride: I am very interested in knowing why some people trust a group of politicians so much. You act as though the govt plan is going to pay for everything and all the corruption will just disappear.
Upon what evidence do you base that thinking?
You have to remember that a lot of these people think Freedom means Free Things. It just so happens that when you want Free Things (which are not really free) from the government, then you will slowly erode your Freedom. History as proved this time and time again for all of time, but they refuse to think that. They want to think "Hey, this time Obama & Friends are going to get it right"
It's not stupidity, it is just ignorance of history and the facts.
Posted by Snailhead (Member # 18091) on :
You're pretty smart Buster. Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
don't believe everything you read in print...especially when it does not have solutions but is used just to stir the pot and confuse things.
Our health care system needs work. What needs to be done is complex...a step at a time.
Posted by LymeLearned (Member # 20565) on :
There are LOTS of people at the top of the food chain in the current system making BILLIONS of dollars. They will say or do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING to protect their money.
They HAD their chance to collect money from people in the form of premiums and provide care using that money.
We already SAW how well THAT went!!!
My GOD, Human greed is so out of control, it's unfathomable!
ALL the government is trying to do is regulate PROFITS. That's it. In my not-so-humble opinion, the provision of medical care is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.
It NEVER should have been legal to profit form it. A non-profit, can pay its employees and use the the rest to return its proceeds to the organization.
Buster, there's a REASON we're 37th in medical care in the world, while being the absolute wealthiest nation on earth.
Don't be fooled by the lies they use in their fight to protect their profits. We are all HERE because it saved them money to AVOID treating us.
[ 09-21-2009, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: LymeLearned ]
Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
If the financial playing field is equaled, what would be the incentive for one doctor to excel?
Does it not become like any other government-run "business"?
I recall noticing a bit of a difference after the privatization of the government-run "Department of Motor Vehicles".
I recall haven taken reading materials, a vacuum, windex, armor-all and paper towels with me to take my car through inspection.
I had sufficient time in those lines to do an impeccable detail job on my car & plenty of time left over to relax & read.
Since the privatization, there's rarely more than a few cars in line.
I wonder if we would see the inverse of that transition occurring if privatized healthcare becomes the "Department of Medical Care".
Though that could just be because NJ's State government is such a long-running joke and it was actually State-run.
I don't know but I think bureaucracy could be dangerous in medicine. Just look at the fear we have over the way we are treated in hospitals and imagine that grand-scale.
It would all come down to who's in charge and what they believe. The odds, right now, may NOT be in our favor for having someone Lyme-Aware appointed to oversee things.
I wish there was some way to know what the future would hold beforehand.
If we change, would it be possible for Obama to say "Oops, I made a mistake." & change things back?
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Need Lots of Help said:
"Ok, why when someone disagrees with the Healthcare Reform why does it always rebutted by saying, "More Scare Tactics"? I am so sick of hearing that. I think that it is exactly the other way around....the government is trying to scare the public into going for this reform. "
Hmmm, let me see, maybe it's because corporate America is spending millions upon millions in advertising to convince us that the reform is bad. Why oh why would they be spending this kind of money????
You talk about the government using scare tactics. Show me how the government is using scare tactics???
Both sides agree our healthcare system is a complete mess and needs reform.
Both sides agree there are not affordable options currently.
Both sides agree that currently 47 million ppl do not have care.
Both sides agree that ppl with pre-existing conditions are being excluded.
Both sides agree that if something major is not done than we will remain in a huge financial crisis. I don't see that as a democratic scare tactic, rather a reality check.
Needs said: "They all say they want a bipartisian solution, but they can't come to one".
You are correct Needs, they can't come to one, because both sides keep using their politics as their ideology. It is a shame that we have come to this. It's like both sides absolutely despise each other.
God forbid we actually admit that the other side may be right, or is doing what both sides knows should be done. So many times it is about appearances and fulfilling what their sides platform position is.
But, putting that aside, in regards to wanting to offer affordable access to healthcare, no body has done anything in regards to healthcare for years and now all of a sudden when we finally have a president that is working on the issue, It's very interesting that the right is going to sit there and nit-pick each and every single little line item within it. Where the heck was everyone for the last 40 years????? We will never get anywhere with those attitudes.
Again, it boils down to either you want healthcare reform or you don't. If you do want this for everyone, than we need to put our money where our mouth is and if not, then we need to just admit it.
Needs said: "I repeat that I would like everyone to have insurance; HOWEVER, the biggest reason I oppose this reform is because of how the government runs their other "businesses", whatever you want to call it they are all broke and being taken advantage of. "
Do you have a problem with how the government runs our military? Or Medicare/Medicaid?(everyone I know that has Medicare/Medicaid likes it. Most like it better than the private insurance they used to have).
Also, if not the government, then who??? Who the heck is going to do the right thing here and start offering an affordable option?
I don't see big corporate america lining up to make concessions do you?
When no one makes concessions, that is when the government intervenes.
That is why you and I have electricity. It's called regulation.
You say you want everyone to have insurance, but not run by the government. So who do you propose is going to do this for these 47 million Americans? Last time I checked there was no private entity willing to give them an affordable option, hence the government is trying to help..
Needs said: "And, all of my doctors, and I have quite a few of them (LLMD, Fibro/Fatigue, Pulmonologist, Neurologist, Allergist, ENT, PCP, daughter's pediatricin) NONE of them want this reform. Many of them are already having to practice by a guideline in fear of being sued. "
That has absolutely nothing to do with the healthcare reform plan. That has everything to do with the fact that the insurance company's can point to the IDSA guidelines(their so called Bible) and refuse our treatment based on their guidelines.
That issue must be fought separately and the new reform plan has no bearing on our lyme treatments.(again if you like your current plan so much them you will be able to keep it).
I guess what is most mind boggling to me is that we of all people, being Lyme victims have been discriminated against and taken advantage of by Corporate America Insurance companies, Big Pharma and the Medical Community as a whole.
How can we sit here and let our fellow American citizens live in a country that is dictated to by the private sector, to the point of pushing and shunning those in need away from basic quality care? I will never understand that.
We are a so called "industrialized" nation and we lag behind so many others it's pitiful, and heartbreaking to think this is how we treat our fellow Americans.
Some here keep equating it to "freedom". I see it a little differently and say it is as if many here are "enslaved" to a Greed ridden system with no shot whatsoever at being able to even pay for a reasonable premium. Is that freedom?????? I think not.
Perhaps you will always disagree with me, and of course that is your prerogative, but I know in my heart this is the right thing to do for our country and those who are in need. That is why I feel so passionately about people being able to receive an affordable plan.
And for that, I can feel good about the reform plan if it passes. I am sorry if this subject is "aggravating" you, but it's a very important issue to the 47 million Americans who currently do not have a plan.
Peace
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
AliG said:
"I wish there was some way to know what the future would hold beforehand."
Don't we all. That would be the solution to so many of our problems. Alas, we can't look into that crystal ball and will have to wait and see.
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
quote:Originally posted by LymeLearned: There are LOTS of people at the top of the food chain in the current system making BILLIONS of dollars. They will say or do ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING to protect their money.
They HAD their chance to collect money from people in the form of premiums and provide care using that money.
We already SAW how well THAT went!!!
My GOD, Human greed is so out of control, it's unfathomable!
ALL the government is trying to do is regulate PROFITS. That's it. In my not-so-humble opinion, the provision of medical care is a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.
It NEVER should have been legal to profit form it. A non-profit, can pay its employees and use the the rest to return its proceeds to the organization.
Buster, there's a REASON we're 37th in medical care in the world, while being the absolute wealthiest nation on earth.
Don't be fooled by the lies they use in their fight to protect their profits. We are all HERE because it saved them money to AVOID treating us.
What do you have against someone that makes a billion dollars? If they do it in a lawful way, why the hate?
You say the government wants to regulate profits, you are wrong. Why did they bail out the big corporations? Why did they give multi million dollar bail out packages to the CEO's of failed companies? Let this blow your mind. Why are all the big insurance companies pushing for healthcare reform? It will make them more money because government can't pass a public option without going bankrupt even further than we are now.
Insurance companies stocks are going up when 'it seems' like they should go down. I do some financing and people are flocking towards investing in healthcare providers because this reform is going to force people to buy insurance. Who is going to force it? Your one and only, government. If you want to see for yourself, check out their volume, shares, and dividends. Also check their websites, they all are pushing healthcare reform. If insurance is going to have to cover 'everything' then no wonder the prices are high...
Health insurance is expensive because of governments regulations and people use their insurance for everything. Health insurance should only be used for a protection against a tragic accident or an illness that hits you out of no where. Not for exams, tests, labs, common cold, doctor visits, ect.
The reason government is helping the insurance companies out is, if they make more money that means more tax dollars for government because they don't tax the poor but they heavily tax the rich. So it is a win/win for government and insurance companies.
I don't understand all the hate for people that make alot of money? They pay 95% of all the countries taxes... maybe you should be thankful for their success instead of being jealous or greedy of them.
I would also like to see this statement that we are 37th in the world when it comes to medical treatment. I would like to know the source, who funds that source, and who works there. I am willing to bet it is 100% factual and not biased at all Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Buster,
I don't think anyone here has a problem with Capitalism. Why do you think we hate people who make money? Where does your statement come from? My husband and I make very good money, so your accusation of hate is absurd.
I think there is a huge difference making as you would say a billion dollars when you are selling products i/e like a car or computers etc.... but it's not right to profit that way when we are talking about monopolizing/profiting on our health care. WE are talking about the difference between life and death for many people. Again, We are not talking about buying a car for goodness sakes.
Do you think people should be able to profit to the extent that they are on peoples health????
If you do then that is your opinion, and quite frankly, I can't understand how someone can equate the two, but alas, I am learning interesting things about people daily.
PS I have enclosed the link from the World Health Organization a very reputable source that both the right and left and the whole world look to.
Here's where it states that the US ranks 37th. I don't see a bias here do you??? I would hope that you would agree that this is pretty darn factual, huh?
PS I would be happy to post other links to other rankings that the W.H.O. has compiled and we rank very low on life expectancy and tons of other areas as well including how we spend far more money per capita on healthcare and yet we receive far less.
Let me know if you would like to see those to. Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
Yeah I believe doctors should profit for their health provisions. They have to pay the bills too. Doctors are the most talented people in the country and also go through the longest and most expensive schooling in the country as well. 1 of my doctor friends was in debt until he was 45 years old and he is a pulmonary surgeon. They should be rewarded for all the hard work they do.
I am seeing that this 37th number was run back in 2000 and it is in relation to our money value ratio to treatment value. It does look like we do al ot of things good, like distribution, availability, responsiveness, 'dale', ect. It's just we happen to spend the most. Which I agree, we do spend the most. Which is the problem we have run into.
I can only imagine how they achieve these numbers, no wonder they haven't done it again for 9 years.
Posted by Need Lots of Help (Member # 18603) on :
I have been on so many playing sides of the field on this healthcare thing.
First, I was pregant and had no insurance. Medicaid accepted me. It was a traumatic experince.
Then, I had issues with the state run department of revenue, child support collections. 3 differnt times.
Social security is going broke. I know several people on medicaid/medicare here who are not happy. My mother only works to keep good insurance.
And, I won't be able to keep my insurance. There will be fines on business who try to keep their own insurance and even if they try to fight it, it will fail.
Oh, and I didn't even mention that I was in the military. For the most part it is ok; however, there still are lots of wastes/inefficiencies. And so many people just come in with a uniform on and do nothing all day long. It is crazy.
I worked for attorneys and doctors and I hate insurance companies. But, at least we have the right to argue and sue them. You can't do that with the government. Remember we can not sue a governmental enity.......not even for lyme treatment.
Should have just scrolled on by........
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Buster said: "I am seeing that this 37th number was run back in 2000 and it is in relation to our money value ratio to treatment value. It does look like we do al ot of things good, like distribution, availability, responsiveness, 'dale', ect. It's just we happen to spend the most. Which I agree, we do spend the most. Which is the problem we have run into."
Yes, buster this was run in 2000 and our prices have sky-rocketed out of control since then. I would venture to guess the number is far worse now and we would rank even lower. A real shame.
Funny how you try to imply these numbers are false when you say "I can only imagine how they achieve these numbers, no wonder they haven't done it again for 9 years."
Are you insinuating you think the numbers are tainted? Do you even know why they were not done again? Are you now going to accuse the W.H.O. of a slant against the US?
Guess there is no reason to try to post well documented sources then.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
PS I never said doctors should not make a good living. You had asked in your prior post:
"What do you have against someone that makes a billion dollars? If they do it in a lawful way, why the hate?"
Read my response again. I said:
"I think there is a huge difference making as you would say a billion dollars when you are selling products i/e like a car or computers etc.... but it's not right to profit that way when we are talking about monopolizing/profiting on our health care. WE are talking about the difference between life and death for many people. Again, We are not talking about buying a car for goodness sakes."
And we have been discussing health insurance/health plans not doctors salary's.
Just wanted to clarify. Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
BTW: Buster,
Found this for you. It's from 2009(although it appears the data was compiled through 2006)...
It appears we have increased our spending in regards to healthcare and it has gotten worse since 2000.
Notice based on the chart that our total expenditure on health as a percentage of gross domestic product was 13.2% in 2000 and rose to 15.3 % in 2006. Can you even imagine what it's now in 2009??????????
Perhaps we should just stay the course and do nothing or little and before long we will allow lets say 25 % of our country's gross domestic product to be spent on healthcare or how does 30% sound? Any takers for 40%? Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
quote:Originally posted by liesandmorelies: Buster said: "I am seeing that this 37th number was run back in 2000 and it is in relation to our money value ratio to treatment value. It does look like we do al ot of things good, like distribution, availability, responsiveness, 'dale', ect. It's just we happen to spend the most. Which I agree, we do spend the most. Which is the problem we have run into."
Yes, buster this was run in 2000 and our prices have sky-rocketed out of control since then. I would venture to guess the number is far worse now and we would rank even lower. A real shame.
Funny how you try to imply these numbers are false when you say "I can only imagine how they achieve these numbers, no wonder they haven't done it again for 9 years."
Are you insinuating you think the numbers are tainted? Do you even know why they were not done again? Are you now going to accuse the W.H.O. of a slant against the US?
Guess there is no reason to try to post well documented sources then.
I never implied the study was wrong, I'm just saying no wonder they haven't done it again in 9 years because of all the work it would take to do something like that again. I'm a number cruncher and if I did something like that it would take me years to do something like that.
I know that we pay the most for healthcare, I'm not debating that... I'm debating how to bring the prices down.
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
quote:Originally posted by liesandmorelies: BTW: Buster,
Found this for you. It's from 2009(although it appears the data was compiled through 2006)...
It appears we have increased our spending in regards to healthcare and it has gotten worse since 2000.
Notice based on the chart that our total expenditure on health as a percentage of gross domestic product was 13.2% in 2000 and rose to 15.3 % in 2006. Can you even imagine what it's now in 2009??????????
Perhaps we should just stay the course and do nothing or little and before long we will allow lets say 25 % of our country's gross domestic product to be spent on healthcare or how does 30% sound? Any takers for 40%?
No, I don't want to stay the course, your pushing for government control when no one realizes that government control is why our prices are so high.
Kick government out the the private system and prices will come down I promise you, but you voted in more government power. Reap what you sow.
Posted by coltman (Member # 21272) on :
quote:Originally posted by Buster:
Kick government out the the private system and prices will come down I promise you, but you voted in more government power. Reap what you sow.
I do not entirely agree with that.Malpractice lawsuits, defensive medicine and emergency room abuses are definitely a big factor (and those are indirect consequence of government regulation ), but not the only one.
1st step ) -take out all the lawyers , billing and coding BS out of the system. Those so called "administrative" cost grew to 40% of total cost of medical care in some cases!
2) They should focus really on healing people and not running them trough the gammut of 15 minutes visits to "specialists", each on of them costing $200+. End result -sicker patients, on more expensive drugs, consuming more and more resources and contributing less and less
Right now all the incentives are in "doing procedures" and "prescribing" indefinitely -that what bring money into the system, not making people better
"For profit" has to go away from field of medicine. Period.
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
quote:Originally posted by coltman:
quote:Originally posted by Buster:
Kick government out the the private system and prices will come down I promise you, but you voted in more government power. Reap what you sow.
I do not entirely agree with that.Malpractice lawsuits, defensive medicine and emergency room abuses are definitely a big factor (and those are indirect consequence of government regulation ), but not the only one.
1st step ) -take out all the lawyers , billing and coding BS out of the system. Those so called "administrative" cost grew to 40% of total cost of medical care in some cases!
2) They should focus really on healing people and not running them trough the gammut of 15 minutes visits to "specialists", each on of them costing $200+. End result -sicker patients, on more expensive drugs, consuming more and more resources and contributing less and less
Right now all the incentives are in "doing procedures" and "prescribing" indefinitely -that what bring money into the system, not making people better
"For profit" has to go away from field of medicine. Period.
We can't kick out lawyers because they are the ones who keep doctors and pharmacy inc. in check. We should stop government from allowing lawyers to sue for the highest dollar possible. The jury should decided the amount just like they decided the charges.
If profit went away, there would be no incentive to become a doctor. It is simple as that. The #1 and #2 ways to bring costs down is increase the number of doctors and stop insurance companies border regulations, what they are planning so far does the exact opposite.
Posted by coltman (Member # 21272) on :
quote: We can't kick out lawyers because they are the ones who keep doctors and pharmacy inc. in check. We should stop government from allowing lawyers to sue for the highest dollar possible. The jury should decided the amount just like they decided the charges.
Cap all the damages at reasonable amounts .They already capped "suffering" damages for $250k in some states, they need to cap all damages to similar amounts. Frivolous lawsuits will go away
quote: If profit went away, there would be no incentive to become a doctor. It is simple as that.
Umm yes there will be .Same exact reasons as today- one of the largest salaries among professionals, respect, helping people etc. -
Medical providers should not be allowed to be for profit, they would use other performance metrics for compensation but profit (such as quality of care for example ), that doesn't mean that doctors would have no salaries
Check out "socialized" medicine in UK ,Canada , France, Japan etc etc. Doctors there do not beg on the street and enjoy quite comfortable standard of living. And , btw, even in poor countries (Russia for example) there are still doctors present ,despite many of them making only a $300 on average a month or so
quote: The #1 and #2 ways to bring costs down is increase the number of doctors and stop insurance companies border regulations, what they are planning so far does the exact opposite.
I fail to see how INCREASE in number of doctors brings down costs
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
You trust the WHO???? Not me.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Buster,
Again, you keep implying that people who disagree with you don't think doctors should make a decent salary.
Unless I missed something in this thread, not one person has said this or implied this.
Of course we believe that doctors should and will continue to make great salary's.
Much of the cost of healthcare in this country is spent on wasteful billing, absurd law suits, paying the corporate run insurance companies(Which you will still have the choice of keeping and supporting if you choose to) and paying into a system that is totally about the bottom line.
There will always be people who will want to go into medicine. Why the heck do you think there are waiting lines to get into the best medical schools???? I know multiple people who have been turned away and they have very good resumes for entering in to med school.
It's a highly competitive field and will remain so. My sons girlfriend and my friends son are both going into medicine, so when ppl say that ppl will not go into medicine, I just don't buy that argument.
The healthcare sector ranks in every single position in the top nineteen paid positions in this country. No other sector in our country is paid like this. We are putting all of our apples in one basket and our country is falling apart.
We are giving all our jobs away and are not producing much in the way of high technology or good manufacturing businesses.
I do believe the wealth has to be spread out a little bit more if we are to get back and or keep our competitive edge.
Believe me the doctors will continue to make incredible money and if that is the only thing that drives them, then they are not in the right field. If an average PCP doctor making lets say 350k is not happy unless he is making 500k per year, then he/she should really consider why the heck they are in the profession.
I also think most everyone here would agree that some of the charges that we are billed for medical visits and procedures are an outrage. They(the doctors) have to bill that way, because the private insurance agency's dictate how much they pay our doctors out. So who do you blame for that? The government?
Lymetoo,
Yes, I do trust the W.H.O...They are very well respected throughout the world and I am wondering why you don't trust them? What do you base that on? Just trying to understand. thx
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
For handy reference I have included a link about who the World Health Organization (W.H.O.) is and a background of what they do, how they operate and as you can clearly see there is no bias here. They are revered as one of the finest health organizations in the world if not the finest in regards to what they do.
PS I would also like to point out that both the Rockefeller Foundation and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation give extensively to the W.H.O..
I do not think either would give the kind of money they do, if this organization were not legit.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
Ok, all of you who trust our government to do right by us, ask yourself these questions.
Why does Obama want to establish a health insurance company owned by the government? Why not just pay the medical bills for those who can't afford it?
I'll tell you why. Government wants a piece of the action and the profits will not come back to you and me as they do not come back to you and me now.
How do we even know certain programs are broke except that they tell us it is? How come they never say pork barrel projects are broke?
The fat greedy thieves are positioned inside our government.
You want to stop Wall Street greed? Stop corruption in our government. The government is the enabler. Without the government, Wall Street could not run amuck. Think about that real hard. If govt was doing its job, Wall Street would have to tow the line.
Buster points out two very good things but you must be willing to look objectively at the government involvement and stop believing they are looking out for you.
#1-Stocks in insurance companies are rising. Lies, I am not seeing any anti-healthcare ads from insurance companies. I have said it before, I work in the industry and it is amazingly quiet about the whole affair and United Healthcare just held a job fair in our town. They are EXPANDING! Why?
#2-Govt regulation started the whole health insurance-as-a-work-benefit thing which stopped competition. Govt regulation also prevents insurance from being purchased across state lines which stops competition. Now who benefits from no competition?????????
Govt and business are in bed together and that isn't stopping with Obama. He is as much in bed with business and rich corporate giants as any president ever.
Insurance companies are going to administrate the govt plan. This is why they aren't worried about it. This is why their profits are soaring and they are hiring. No layoffs in the healthcare industry.
Wake up! Wake up! Wake up!
Govt taking care of us = Govt raping and pillaging us.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Who is raping and pillaging us????
Maybe this can answer a few questions. Heck at least it's funny.
Come on you know you wanna laugh. Laughing is good for your endorphins.
Peace
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
Not able to read what others have written. Just responding to the subject line.
When I came down too sick to work or do household chores...I thought wow I could be a doc.
it seems all they did was shake my hand ask me a few questions within a very limited time frame...
5 min avg and then bill the insurance company.
Mind you. I know the docs are not making the creme of the money here.
I heard it was the insurance company stockholders. Big bucks there.
But, it seemed to me that most docs were more interested in not finding a solution to my health care problem as they would be penalized by the insurance company for doing so.
I had several primary doc's keep rescheduling me until it stretched out for 3 months.
Or stretch out requests for over 3 months and then tell me the insurance company denied the request.
One time I was doing well enough to call the insurance company and was told it was never requested.
I had one even tell me she would not send me to Stanford as recommended by a specialist I had seen because it would come out of her pocket.
Later when talking to the watch dogs for the insurance companies in the state i lived in I was told that the doctor's receive a quarterly bonus if they stay within their contact with the insurance company.
They have a choice of how much of a bonus they will receive depending on what they sign for the contract.
Business first. My health second. I understand needing to stay in business...but it is a health care business.
So, what to do??
Sorry, if I have written this before. Teflon brain.
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
I would prefer a subject on some solutions on what to do...
I heard so many stories of people going to the doctors' for help...one had a daughter with cancer that went undx for too long even though she keep going to doctor's for help.
Instead they attacked the mother. The child died.
another went to one hospital and was sent home...had someone drive him 2 hr out of town to another hospital and had open heart surgery right away...was told he would not have made it through the night.
It seemed the doctors' that were willing to help were ones that I paid out of pocket for until the pockets became empty.
I am sure we all have stories of how the health care system let us down.
There is something very wrong when you go to the health professionals for help and they become part of the problem instead of the solution.
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
Identify the problem (s) and come up with solutions.
In the case of lyme disease..we need better testing since most doctors' seem to go by test results.
Then they need to be able to treat with long term abx.
If we had better testing, I assume we would have better results with which meds to use.
Of course it is not this simple. But, it is a start.
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
I am reminded a bit of when the topic of equal pay for equal work was in debate.
I recall the main focus seemed to be on if we did that we would no longer have separate bath rooms.
That subject was no were in the proposed law. But, it was a scare tactic.
As it turned out, the companies got around the bill by giving females one title and males another title although we were all doing the same work.
OK Wasted energy here. Not feeling well and just wanted to vent. Not a good choice for changing my attitude this am.
MOving on to something more positive I hope.
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
Tried to find a list of what the profits were for each health care company without the other stuff but couldn't find it this am.
Found this on fact check.org. What I saw was the large amount of profits.
Insurance Co. Profits: Good, But Not Breaking Records
August 5, 2009 Bookmark and Share
When President Obama said at his July 22 news conference that health insurance companies were making record profits "right now," we thought he might have insider access to corporate earnings data.
After all, most of the top publicly traded companies were on the verge of filing their reports, but only one had done so at the time Obama spoke.
Obama, July 22: Now, you know, there had been reports just over the last couple of days of insurance companies making record profits. Right now, at the time when everybody's getting hammered, they're making record profits and premiums are going up.
A day earlier, UnitedHealth Group had reported its earnings for the second quarter of 2009, which beat analysts' expectations with profit of $859 million.
Still, other quarters have been more profitable for the insurer, such as the first quarter of 2008, when profit rang in at $994 million.
We wondered if there was any other evidence to support Obama's statement now that other earnings reports are in.
The answer is: not much. Humana Inc. logged a quarterly profit of almost $282 million.
But in the third quarter of 2007, it rang up $302 million in profits.
Aetna came in at $347 million in profit for the quarter, which lagged behind its $480 million of a year earlier.
Health Net logged a $40 million profit in the spring quarter, compared with $77 million a year earlier.
Wellpoint's $693 million for the quarter paled next to its third quarter 2008 profit of nearly $821 million.
And Coventry Health Care Inc. wasn't breaking any records, with second quarter profit of about $18 million compared with $83 million a year earlier.
CIGNA's balance sheet showed second quarter profit of $435 million, which was better than anytime in the last couple of years, but the company saw higher numbers in, say, 2004 and 2005.
In the quarter ending June 30, 2005, for instance, the company's net income, or profit, came in at a sizable $720 million.
In general, the health insurance industry did poorly toward the end of 2008 and in the first quarter of 2009, so record profits weren't likely in the second quarter.
Obama was right about one thing: Health insurance premiums have gone up.
The average premium for a family with employer-sponsored insurance rose 5 percent from 2007 to 2008, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, and has more than doubled since 1999. Figures for 2009 haven't been calculated yet.
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
This is fun ! More docs ? How about less docs that get more done ?
I do not recall exact dates + figures (one of you searchers can find it I am sure) but when docs went on strike death rates went down !
And overall lots of $$$, politics and egos involved. IME as a natural health pro for 25 years many MDs are not really there to help the public.
Posted by coltman (Member # 21272) on :
quote:Originally posted by luvs2ride: Why does Obama want to establish a health insurance company owned by the government? Why not just pay the medical bills for those who can't afford it?
Umm because in US medical bills are outrageously overpriced? $6k for 2 days hospital stay, $15k for ER work up, $300 for 15 min office visit.
And frankly the care US doctors provide is nothing amazing - you would be surprised that some 3d world country doctors are able to provide better care with many times less resources and getting paid a miniscule fraction of what US Drs are
quote: Govt taking care of us = Govt raping and pillaging us.
Its is not like corporation are saints, without government interference they become huge greedy monopolies (check the 30s and great depression).
It is sad that government now is so much in bed with them that most regulation now actually benefit biggest greediest corporation
Posted by Snailhead (Member # 18091) on :
Does anyone know why we can't buy insurance across state lines?
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Great points Kam!
We are paying more and more and receiving less and less, but I guess that is okay with some people.
You are so correct about doctors being part of the problem too. You don't know how many doctors I had to see and they just would not listen to me. What a waste of my money(everybody's money).
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Snailhead:
I found this and hope it can answer some of your questions. They claim to be a bi-partisan organization. I don't have time to read it now, but thought you could get started. I will read the whole thing later.
Thank you for the link. I read it, but I still don't get it. Must be me. Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
Docs or Big Pharma don't want or intend for you to get better. They want most patients to come back for more visits and more drugs.
And if they are so talented why do they turn into such cloned mindless emotionless nazi-like morons ? Look at all the complaints on this site.
Residencies are optional and pre-med is mostly general ed. Doctors of Chiropractic go to Chiro College longer than MDs go to Med School.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
Everyone has an opinion. They are pretty cheap considering everything else.
A more important question is that how many of you, and those "surveyed" doctors have actually take time to read what's in the reform bill so far?
My guess is very few.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Wtl said:
"Everyone has an opinion. They are pretty cheap considering everything else."
LOL that is pretty funny and true too.
I have read huge chunks of it, but not the whole thing. I try to read up on it daily and have tried to stay informed as it has changed.
I would venture to guess that most people have not read any or little of it and then there are those that say they have read some, but sound as if they have read something totally different than what the plan actually says. Funny how that works.
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
quote:Originally posted by wtl: A more important question is that how many of you, and those "surveyed" doctors have actually take time to read what's in the reform bill so far?
My guess is very few.
You'd be wrong. This bill affects their career and livelihood. I'm sure they might have a better idea of what it means than you do.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire:
quote:Originally posted by wtl: A more important question is that how many of you, and those "surveyed" doctors have actually take time to read what's in the reform bill so far?
My guess is very few.
You'd be wrong. This bill affects their career and livelihood. I'm sure they might have a better idea of what it means than you do.
I hope so but I am afraid that most people take everything on Fox News as facts. And that is a fact. Just listen to Bill O'reilly's own words about his listeners.
Oh, I forgot, you can't trust what he says...my bad.
And then there might be a few who are reading what's in the bill for the reason to tear it apart, not for the things they say in public.
The rest, I bet, never give much thought. Most don't really know and have never traveled to a "communism" society to see how bad it really is so they are scared and just follow what others have to say.
I love everyone here but on this topic, I just can't agree with some of my very respected friends. I hope you don't hate me now for my "cheap" opinion on the health care issue.
Most of my friends in the social circle belong to the 42 millions who don't have insurance. And for even my personal obligation, I want them to be insured to the level at least like myself and my family.
I can't imagine how I am going to get by without an insurance for now both my wife and my daughter are under treatment.
And that is my personal truth.
[ 09-24-2009, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: wtl ]
Posted by BHealthyNow (Member # 22537) on :
There are a *few* doctors I wouldn't mind if they quit.
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
wtl, nobody hates you. However, they may think you're misguided.
What you're really arguing for is cheaper healthcare, which is definitely achievable. But this bill is not the way to do it.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
WTL,
You are not the one that is misguided.
You are not the one that allows the likes of Glen Beck to help you make your decisions.
I pray for all your friends who are among the 47 Million that don't have insurance.
Remember it is easy for those that have to not remember those that have not.
This bill is the best thing that has ever been proposed. Perfect, no, but better than what other administrations have ever proposed yes. Oh, wait, the other administration never proposed anything.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Regarding the original post on this thread. Here is a little rebuttal that I think you we should consider.
It appears that the 45% number regarding doctors quitting is quite a misrepresentation of the facts.
It seems that >62 % support having a public and private option. Very few doctors believed that having private only was good.
It talks about how the 45% number came to be and discredits it handily. Have a peek. Again the "truth" speaks volumes.
Now, I understand why my doctors have been saying that a public option is needed in addition to the private options.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire: wtl, nobody hates you. However, they may think you're misguided.
What you're really arguing for is cheaper healthcare, which is definitely achievable. But this bill is not the way to do it.
Good. Now I can sleep.
I keep hearing the opposition party saying the problem can be addressed without a total reform, but the real problem is that I have not heard even slightly what that proposal will be. So sounds like million balloons in the air.
I am from the State where John Buhner kept getting more sun tans every day and runs his thin lips about how bad the president's proposal is. The truth is he has nothing to say other than "If you don't have insurance and you need medical attention, go to the church and ask for donation." Yeah, right, like he really believes that's the true reform for that 47 millions uninsured people.
Or sounds more like a scandal to me...
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
quote:Originally posted by wtl: I am from the State where John Buhner kept getting more sun tans every day and runs his thin lips about how bad the president's proposal is. The truth is he has nothing to say other than "If you don't have insurance and you need medical attention, go to the church and ask for donation." Yeah, right, like he really believes that's the true reform for that 47 millions uninsured people.
Or sounds more like a scandal to me...
Thing is, although the Repubs have many ideas, they're all useless right now. They were completely locked out of the process for this bill.
None of these ideas will happen while the Dems hold both houses.
Have to shut this bill down first.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
ninjaphire - not to beat on a dead horse, but I would really like to have these repubs ideas spelled out. I just haven't heard any.
And this really should never be about dems or repubs. i am not sure why some people keep milking this cow...
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
Ninja, The proposed plan in this link will not work
They are only proposing a 5k debit card for "low income" families. This will not address a huge portion of the 47 million that don't have insurance, yet are not what they deem low income.
Do you even know what it costs for coverage for a family of four in a basic plan?
They claim the debit card can be used to put towards insurance or expenses.
Again, ppl will not buy insurance and will continue to go through ER's and blow through their money and will not receive preventative care, which is costing our country billions of dollars.
I think ppl who have employers who offer healthcare benefits do not even realize what these premiums cost. Many only pay their employee share and have no clue.
My brother who is healthy was told he would have to pay 1k per month just for him to buy private insurance.
Do you even think the 5k is going to make a dent in it. And keep in mind that the 5k would be handed over to the private insurance sector only to get less and less of the 5k spent on actual health care than a public option would allow them.
A family of four runs approx anywhere from 1k - 2k per month. So the 5k proposal would not really help these ppl at all. Think about it.
And, what about the family's who make medium salary's like lets say 60k who don't have a plan from their employer. Right now they are expected to pay anywhere form roughly 12k to 24k per year to purchase private insurance depending on the plan and the state etc....
These ppl would not get the 5k debit card at all from what I understand.
From what I can tell this plan does nothing to create competition and or put pressure for the private sector to come down on prices.
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
It's a middle of the road plan, really.
Americans are happy about the quality and access to healthcare. They are unhappy about the cost. So the plan needs to reduce the costs. Obama's plan will not do anything to reduce costs. It will reduce quality and availability.
The reason why healthcare for a family is expensive, is because they do have lots of healthcare expenses. The only way to fix that is to bring costs down. You cannot hope for insurance to cost less than the expected expenses over the year on average.
Yes, for a family of 4, healtcare will be a major portion of income. That's why we desperately need to reduce costs.
In an ideal world, insurance would be similar to car insurance. Covering emergencies only.
It's also sad that I can't find a good article on the Republican proposal. It's never going to pass, so nobody really cares.
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
Dont' mean to come across harshly, and of course you can't see me or hear me. I wish we could have a face to face talk as these posts don't let us see emotion or hear inflection.
I think this proposal that you posted would be worse than what we have now.
A 5k debit card will do nothing and it will prolong people from getting preventative services. It will do nothing to force prices down.
Obama's plan helps reduce cost because it is a public option where more of every dollar spent goes directly to actual care. The savings passed on go to reduce the cost of the plan. And the premiums collected will go on to reduce the cost of his plan.
you keep saying that the only way to fix the problem is to bring costs down. How is a 5k debit card going to do that? It is only going to give the low income ppl money to put towards some expenses. It will not encourage them to get and receive preventative care.
Costs will continue to go up as more and more ppl wait until their problems have escalated to a point where they keep going through ER's. How does that reduce costs???
You and I both know that a 6 hour stay in an ER can cost 5k alone.
Another thing, what have we become when we think it is okay for family's to have to spend the bulk of their salary on healthcare?
How is that good for our economy?
That is why so many are underinsured or have no insurance period. We can't expect ppl to spend 25% to 50% of their salary's on healthcare. That is absurd.
We don't live in an ideal world(most americans don't make enough money to pay for insurance on their own). If they are not fortunate enough to have an employer purchasing and paying for the bulk of the premium, most can't even think of buying one on their own. i don't know anyone making 60k per year that can afford to take 12k to 24k per year just to buy a premium.
So the thought about health insurance being like car insurance does not work either. My car gets better treatment than I do.
Right now, I pay my car insurance and I am covered for everything that may come along. Unlike health insurance where they pick and choose what I can have and not have and then they fight you on everything.
What's worse is when you think certain things are covered they come in and say no. Great system that is .
BTW, I am not some stuck in the mud Dem. I have voted all different ways through the years, so to say that nobody cares about the Rep proposal doesn't add up.
The problem is their proposal is a stall tactic and does not answer any of the big problems that we are currently facing with healthcare.
It delays preventative care and does not reduce costs one bit. It does not really help anyone "AFFORD" a plan of coverage. So what is the point of their plan then????
If they were offering real solutions to the problem I would be the first to listen, but all I see is the same ole same ole, meanwhile more and more Americans do not have access to affordable healthcare. This has got to end.
Peace
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
We posted at the same time. My response was in regards to the prior link you posted.
I will have to read the newer link you just posted.
PS I think the bulk of the new plan you posted will be paid for by backdoor taxes. Don't think most Republicans realize that.
Gotta go for now, but will read it soon.
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
I think the idea is that there won't be new taxes, unlike Obamacare, which will have insurance mandates or fines.
Car insurance doesn't pay for replacing your tires or gas. It only pays for accidents. Which is why it works on the whole.
Look, we have to get away from the idea of "paying for insurance" towards the concept "paying for healthcare".
Costs will not come down until:
1. Tort reform happens. Right now, doctors have to pay large amounts for malpractice insurance. This is one thing which can be reduced.
2. People control their own healthcare dollars. This will bring prices down, as people see how expensive health-care really is.
OR
You sacrifice quality, which nobody wants, I think.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
ninjaphire - thanks for the link. I enjoy and appreciate your civilized manner in discussing this subject.
It sounds good for a "middle of the road" approach. But when you thnk about it, it is not as "middle of the road" as one can claim. It really is one way for the ones who could afford, but not for the ones who couldn't.
It sounds like the one who has the idea (McCain originally?) has already conceded that the plan won't help those who absolutely can't afford the insurance, like those who lost their jobs and are losing their homes, and many other "unfortunate" people in this richest country on earth.
Second, my insurance costs about $1500/mon for my family, and it's pretty good but still costs too much for me every time I see a doctor. I have a pretty decent income and am willing to "subsidize" some of the cost for other less fortunate. You and I both do anyway because of ERs and other medical cost in the society. It's not like we are not paying. So the cost portion of the repub argument is just a moot point.
5k seems to be alot, but with counting the cost increase in medical insurance in recent years, you tell me how long this is going to help, and how many people this will help.
The original concept of insurance started long before the US was formed as a country. People chip in certain amount of money peridically so that when one has emergency, there is a pot of money to help out. The ones who temperarily need help will have no obligation to contribute until their conditions are improved. Then the rotaation goes on. It really is a "socialism" concept (by the way, human living condition is more socialism by nature as we do depend on each other more than we are independent. Just look at this community here). Historically, that's where the concept come from.
Now looking at that concept again, "mandatory" is a neccessary part of what makes insurance work. It means that all members of the community will have to be part of it in order for the system to work. If only those who need to spend the money are the contributors, the system will go broke. The ones who contribute and never use the money should consider themselves lucky because of their health. same as auto insurance. I pray I will never use my auto insurance or I wil be in a mess.
Politicians can tell you what they want to tell you, in the end, you are mandated to contribute. Everybody is now, through paying the insurance premium or tax. Even at the moment some don't have job and sick or whatever they don't have income to pay, at some point of your life you will do, or your family, or someone who supports you. It is that plain and simple. So I am not sure how we can argue "mandatory" for insurance is a bad thing.
For those who are permanently disabled, both mentally and physically, it is the society's moral duty to take care of them. It has always been this way since the dawn of human race. And I hope repubs don't argue about that since they are the ones who keep pulling the cards like "value" and "morality".
For lowering the cost, I believe there are more ways than the three you listed. It is the fact that USA system costs the most and is one of the lowest in quality. For a starter, public option is one of the ways to lower cost. It might not be good for the insurance industry, but it is damn good for all others. Just look at Swissland, Germany, Taiwan, and Japan.
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
quote:Originally posted by wtl: It is the fact that USA system costs the most and is one of the lowest in quality.
Sorry, You are wrong. The US healthcare system is the best in the world in terms of quality and access to care. People from Canada come to the US to get ahead of the waiting lists. This aspect of it is worth saving.
Where else in the world can you find LLMDs so easily ?
Posted by Need Lots of Help (Member # 18603) on :
Everyone on this board should know by now, the number cruncher can twist and turn the numbers them to make the "outcome" whatever they want it to be.
As in the case of Lyme, how many lyme cases are actually recorded. In another post Tincup was mentioning how they were using what Lyme patients said against them to make us look crazy. There is no chronic lyme in all their research.
So, I don't care what the politicians are saying, I don't believe any of them. If I believed them, I might be able to support this bill, but I know the politicians aren't in this to help the average American. If they were, they would give up some of that outrageous salary they make and add it to the pie.
If they would pay taxes, give up all the gifts they receive, and forgoe their insane idea that they should receive a full salary for the rest of their life, I am sure that money could insure many of the "uninsured".
If they really believed in this healthcare reform, they would take the same services as you and I get..........
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
The quality of the care is poor in this country. Just because there are lots of docs and big fancy machines does not equal quality.
I will search for those stats tomorrow.
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
quote:Originally posted by Need Lots of Help: Everyone on this board should know by now, the number cruncher can twist and turn the numbers them to make the "outcome" whatever they want it to be.
As in the case of Lyme, how many lyme cases are actually recorded. In another post Tincup was mentioning how they were using what Lyme patients said against them to make us look crazy. There is no chronic lyme in all their research.
So, I don't care what the politicians are saying, I don't believe any of them. If I believed them, I might be able to support this bill, but I know the politicians aren't in this to help the average American. If they were, they would give up some of that outrageous salary they make and add it to the pie.
If they would pay taxes, give up all the gifts they receive, and forgoe their insane idea that they should receive a full salary for the rest of their life, I am sure that money could insure many of the "uninsured".
If they really believed in this healthcare reform, they would take the same services as you and I get..........
I've been watching this thread. This is the point I was trying to make on page 1. It's been a long time since I have seen a president without self interests. I could make lists of all the recent presidents/administrations.
It is also easy to tell which ones on here are spouting 'I wish you could hear my 'emotion' and which ones are trying to approach the problem in a just and real way. When you try to use emotion in an argument... fact, logic, and reason are thrown out the window.
I've tried but it's hard to reason with people that think Obama is the one that is going to save us. They feel the strong need for free/very cheap healthcare. They want it now and everything will be good and fixed.
I can understand that, but we have to approach the problem without causing further deficit, reduced and rationed care, and without impeding on anyone's rights, and not causing anyone to have to pay higher taxes.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire:
quote:Originally posted by wtl: It is the fact that USA system costs the most and is one of the lowest in quality.
Sorry, You are wrong. The US healthcare system is the best in the world in terms of quality and access to care. People from Canada come to the US to get ahead of the waiting lists. This aspect of it is worth saving.
Where else in the world can you find LLMDs so easily ?
Can you provide the source of your assertion? I only hear this from Rush Lambaugh and Glen Beck.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:Originally posted by Need Lots of Help: Everyone on this board should know by now, the number cruncher can twist and turn the numbers them to make the "outcome" whatever they want it to be.
As in the case of Lyme, how many lyme cases are actually recorded. In another post Tincup was mentioning how they were using what Lyme patients said against them to make us look crazy. There is no chronic lyme in all their research.
So, I don't care what the politicians are saying, I don't believe any of them. If I believed them, I might be able to support this bill, but I know the politicians aren't in this to help the average American. If they were, they would give up some of that outrageous salary they make and add it to the pie.
If they would pay taxes, give up all the gifts they receive, and forgoe their insane idea that they should receive a full salary for the rest of their life, I am sure that money could insure many of the "uninsured".
If they really believed in this healthcare reform, they would take the same services as you and I get..........
That's the cynicism at its extreme.
Not saying that government is all that great and trustful. As a matter of fact, the founding fathers of this nation had warned its citizens to watch what government is doing in order to maintain the freedom and liberty at all cost. That is why the constitution allows a process for debate, and vote for the people to have a voice in the decision.
For that exact reason, I will take the government over private insurance company at any day. Think who is the government? Those politicians, or us collectively? I think it is us, unless we give up and let them do what they want. We can't mistrust "ourselves" to prevent the progress to be made for our own good. Compared to what we have now (depending on the mercy of the insurance company to spare a few pennies to us), the reform bill looks very attractive.
My argument is not saying that this is perfect bill and everyone should jump on it without carefully examining what's in it. But to say you don't want to be part of it and research to find what the proposal is about before rejecting...well, that's your choice.
I would just rather be part of the process but I understand we all have our choice. And that's the beauty of this democracy.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:Originally posted by Buster: It is also easy to tell which ones on here are spouting 'I wish you could hear my 'emotion' and which ones are trying to approach the problem in a just and real way. When you try to use emotion in an argument... fact, logic, and reason are thrown out the window.
I can't remember if it is Thomas Jefferson who said that one without emotion is less than a human, or something to that effect.
The human history has always contained the emotion. After all, that's the core element of our existence. What we need to be careful is how we are going to use our conscience to channel our emotion into a reality that benefits our further existence.
quote:Originally posted by Buster: I've tried but it's hard to reason with people that think Obama is the one that is going to save us.
That is very sad that some of us are willing to sacrifice our own good to defend a certain political ideology.
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
quote:Originally posted by wtl: Can you provide the source of your assertion? I only hear this from Rush Lambaugh and Glen Beck.
1. The WHO report says that the US has the most responsive healthcare in the world.
All the other issues are mostly to do with money, and I agree, we need to improve the cost.
Again, it's hard to find good numbers to objectively compare the US to Europe or Canada. I do know that people in Canada end up on waiting lists, and they come to the US to get MRIs/hip-replacements etc.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
ninjaphire -
No one can dispute that US has some of the most advanced medical research projects, and in some areas, we hold the prominent position in treatment techniques.
However, when speaking of an overall quality of care of a nation, one cannot ignore the many of its citizens who can't even obtain the chance to see a doctor for the care they need. That's the thing - how does the best treatment technique help if one can't afford to use it?
Being able to treat a certain disease does not equal to the improved care one can actually receive. It only reinforces the need for a medical system reform that could create more competition so that we can put those research results into practice.
In Japan, the need for medical research is not based on how much profit the company can make through the research, as we Americans think naturally, but is to create "leverage" to keep its competitiveness in the market and its patients. Another way saying it - they compete for patients, not for cash. Now, that's a new kind of capitalism I can bring myself to support.
And the reality is that no average Japanese is a better person than an average American. It is the system...
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
quote:Originally posted by wtl: However, when speaking of an overall quality of care of a nation, one cannot ignore the many of its citizens who can't even obtain the chance to see a doctor for the care they need. That's the thing - how does the best treatment technique help if one can't afford to use it?
Everybody can see a doctor, even if they can't pay. Just go to an emergency room.
As I said before, the quality of healthcare is good. What we need to do is to reduce the cost.
Obama's bill will reduce the quality of healthcare, which we don't really want.
Will we continue to be able to pay cash for treatment ? Nobody knows exactly what the rules will be yet. That's something you should think about.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire:
Obama's bill will reduce the quality of healthcare, which we don't really want.
Will we continue to be able to pay cash for treatment ? Nobody knows exactly what the rules will be yet. That's something you should think about.
Again, I am not sure what language in the proposal that suggests your notion. The Congressional leaders and vets of this country are using the public option and I have every reason to believe it is a pretty good policy for the quality these have received so far. How can one simply makes assertion that public option will lower the quality of the health care? And the currently circulated proposals are all based on the model of what the Congress receives.
I really suggest everyone who cares about this issue take time read the actual proposal, not just follow some talking heads in the media, from both sides.
And the proposal is pretty clear in addressing a lot of your concerns.
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
quote:Originally posted by wtl:
I can't remember if it is Thomas Jefferson who said that one without emotion is less than a human, or something to that effect.
The human history has always contained the emotion. After all, that's the core element of our existence. What we need to be careful is how we are going to use our conscience to channel our emotion into a reality that benefits our further existence.
This is the quote you are referring to: Patriotism is not a short frenzied burst of emotion, but the long and steady dedication of a lifetime.
And here is another one for the emotional type: Nothing gives one person so much advantage over another as to remain always cool and unruffled under all circumstances. Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
quote:Originally posted by wtl:
quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire:
Obama's bill will reduce the quality of healthcare, which we don't really want.
Will we continue to be able to pay cash for treatment ? Nobody knows exactly what the rules will be yet. That's something you should think about.
Again, I am not sure what language in the proposal that suggests your notion. The Congressional leaders and vets of this country are using the public option and I have every reason to believe it is a pretty good policy for the quality these have received so far. How can one simply makes assertion that public option will lower the quality of the health care? And the currently circulated proposals are all based on the model of what the Congress receives.
I really suggest everyone who cares about this issue take time read the actual proposal, not just follow some talking heads in the media, from both sides.
And the proposal is pretty clear in addressing a lot of your concerns.
The healthcare plan for war veterans is absolutely horrible. I can give you phone numbers of men that actually have experienced it and instead buy their own. These men actually deserve some good healthcare because they earned it. 1 is my grandfather and another is my uncle.
Politicians can and do buy their own, they actually make good money.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buster:
Politicians can and do buy their own...
There you go, this is exactly proposed in the bill discussed. Something called "choice".
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:Originally posted by Buster: [qb] healthcare plan for war veterans is absolutely horrible.
Not as horrible as those 47 millions who don't have any. Not suggesting it doesn't need improvement - always. But we are not speaking in terms of "comparatively".
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
quote:Originally posted by wtl: I really suggest everyone who cares about this issue take time read the actual proposal, not just follow some talking heads in the media, from both sides.
The problem is that this bill is seen as a way to bring about government-run healthcare by Obama and other democrats. They've been pretty clear on this too.
I can find some video if you'd like.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
What prevents one to read the actual text of the proposal? The insistance of not wanting to read the actual text seems to be silly. Why go by the perception? We all know perception is largely based on the information source you have used. Why not go to the real source?
I really want to say this is not about dems or repubs. Some politicians might want to milk that cow, but as far as I am concerned, they are both my employees and they are just doing their job to get my pay. I am only going to care about what they produce. I couldn't really care who should take the credit or blame. It is that simple.
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
The problem is that the actual text is very long and complicated.
One example is that although it says you can keep your current insurance, other regulation in the bill makes it almost certain that the insurance company won't be able to offer the same insurance in a very short period of time.
As much as I like the intent of those digested and shorten version of what's in the bill, I am afraid all of them have their own agendas (which are very clear even watching only for 5 seconds).
All tried to portrait an elephane with a leg or an ear, much worse in some that tried to a tiger leg to portrait an elephane.
I am sorry the actual text is too long and too complicated to read through. But this is a complicated issue and deserves much attention, if one is interested.
If one is only going to read the reader's digest to be satisfied, instead of reading the real writing of literature classics in history, that's one's choice. I can't argue about that.
But since I have such a good time discussing this issue with you (that I got so carried away in spending my time as you can see), I am going to suggest one more time that at least have a proposal link handy so when you hear something, find the actual text in the proposal and read it.
If one claims a "fact" without a specific reference to the proposal section, chances are they are fabricating the fact. So ask for the source when you listen, and go find the text to read it yourself.
That way you don;t have to read the whole thing...
Cheers and for good health!
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Wtl,
You hit the nail on the head and wrote some amazing posts. I have been gone a couple days and came back and am catching up.
Your points are well thought out and really get to the root of the problem.
As long as we have a society that will point the finger without really getting involved and reading the text, what do we expect????
I am tired of people trying to convince the masses about this issue and put it in a negative light, when they have not invested the time reading the actual plan.
As I have said before I feel very passionate about this healthcare reform for various reasons.
I know some here think "Emotion" should not come into play, but that will be the break down of a society.
When one becomes so intent on their ideology and does not allow their emotion to factor in, quite frankly we become robotic and that really scares me.
I agree with you that we should really be using specific references when we get to a point where ppl are fabricating the facts, but not sure how to get ppl to really read the text.
Where I live locally we have ppl sitting down with ppl and helping to get them links to the plan. We encourage everyone to read it on their own before they comment based on pre-conceived ideas.
One last thing. Probably one of the most profound statements in this thread is when you posted the following:
"For that exact reason, I will take the government over private insurance company at any day. Think who is the government? Those politicians, or us collectively? I think it is us, unless we give up and let them do what they want. We can't mistrust "ourselves" to prevent the progress to be made for our own good. Compared to what we have now (depending on the mercy of the insurance company to spare a few pennies to us), the reform bill looks very attractive."
That is so very true and no one can deny that fact!
Whether we like it or not, we the people are essentially the government. That is why we have elections and vote. It's central to who we are as Americans and the way we think. It's what makes our country wonderful.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
About half of the 47 million witnout insurance choose not to have it. They are against the proposed plan because it would force them to buy insurance or pay a hefty fee.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Lymetoo,
You are correct. There are a large number of ppl that do not want to have to pay for things, but there are just as many that just can't pay for the options that are currently available.
We need to have an affordable option for those people. We can't use the excuse of those that "chose" not to pay for healthcare coverage that can stop us from doing the right thing for those that can't pay.
personally, I do not think it's right for someone that has the money to have a plan, opt not to have to have one when we all know when and if they do become ill, which most ppl will at some point, then never paid anything for it only to have the rest of us have to pay it.
If the person is truly poor and needs our help in providing a plan for them than I am fine in providing that. But, for ppl to take the risk that they might not get ill only to pawn it off on society is wrong in my opinion.
In regards to the half you speak of. My comment to them would be it's just like car insurance.
Legally you can't drive a car without insurance. It protects the whole society when everyone has insurance.
Right now there are many that don't want to purchase insurance, but as you have said before they can't be stopped from going through the ER, costing way more money to the rest of us.
Right now when ppl go through the ER for everything, it gets pushed off on to the rest of us.
In a perfect world we wouldn't even need insurance, but since insurance is not just going to go away, than it's reckless to not have any.
Hence, the affordable option will be a way for those that purposely choose not to have health coverage, that can afford to purchase a plan to be more cost effective for them. And,more importantly it will give an affordable option to the millions that don't have any healthcare at all not out of choice, but because they truly are poor.
Posted by coltman (Member # 21272) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: About half of the 47 million witnout insurance choose not to have it. They are against the proposed plan because it would force them to buy insurance or pay a hefty fee.
Kinda hard buying $500 insurance when you make $300-$400 /week. That was main reason I did not have it for a while
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
Just going back to the subject line.
Since only 1% of the doctor's I saw when I became to sick to work or do household chores actually had an attitude of lets find out what this is and fix it....
I could do without the other 99% that just shook my hand and passed me on to someone else or said all I can do is look up sympathy in the dictionary for you.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Amen Kam!!!
I saw over 20 different doctors and only one of them treated me with what I would say was real dignity and took me seriously.
The other 19 just pawned me off to the next doctor and so on and so. Gosh forbid they try to find out what is really wrong with someone like us.
What is sicker is that I truly believe a few of them knew that I might have Lyme Disease, but did not want to touch it. So much for "Do No Harm"
So quite frankly, I could not give a darn if many of them quit, which you and I know is a scare tactic and won't actually happen. Like what are they going to do, flip burgers at Mac-D's????
Posted by ninjaphire (Member # 18234) on :
quote:Originally posted by kam: I could do without the other 99% that just shook my hand and passed me on to someone else or said all I can do is look up sympathy in the dictionary for you.
Only problem is that it's the good people who will be more likely to quit, due to increased bureaucracy.
Posted by wtl (Member # 19883) on :
quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire: Only problem is that it's the good people who will be more likely to quit, due to increased bureaucracy.
I bet to differ. I think the ones who quit, if that actually happen, will be those who see the profit as the main reason to stay in the field because there will not be as much profit as now.
But you know what? I don't think anyone will quit at all.
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
The past few years, I have know several small business families that don't have insurance because they can not afford it.
Back in 2002, if I were still working, my insurance premium with the state of CA would have been $1,000 a month.
Plus others with the state were paying $1,000 or more out of month for insurance in case they were no longer able to work.
One plan was in case you get cancer, another was for something else. etc etc.
What the hell??
I had signed up for one of the plans and they were taking money out of my pay check for about 6 months.
Then when I did get sick they found a way to not cover me..saying it was a pre existing condition.
Posted by kam (Member # 3410) on :
wtl...
I kind of felt that it was wrong so many doctor's were on the pay roll of the insurance and got paid whether or not they did their job.
But, it is kind of like that in a lot of fields.
Those who do a good job and those who just skate by.
When, it comes to your health....you certainly don't want someone who is skating by.
I even had one doctor tell me it was not his problem that I could no longer work and I needed to know what was going on with my health.
Posted by liesandmorelies (Member # 15323) on :
Kam,
The same thing happened to a young girl that is the daughter of a guy that my husband works with.
She got some very rare disease/illness and bingo, they said it was not covered because it was not written in their plan. They have Blue Cross.
If doctors want to quit, so be it, but I agree with wtl in that they won't. like I have said before, what are they going to do, flip burgers at Mac-D's???? We all know how many jobs are waiting for them to take.
Haven't you noticed that employment is at an all time high? LOL
I guess some ppl think that paying over $1k per month is affordable and acceptable. They expected my brother to pay 1k for a healthy 45 yr old guy. No family, just him. Insanity I tell you.
Then when and if you even can pay it, they ration you and tell you, you can't have this or that.
This is insanity that we are living in. We are being held victims to the current system, meanwhile more will join the 47 million that don't have insurance.
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Us lymies already know how that feels.
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