Update as of today: She's doing great, is back in school, has a social life, even gave me some lip last night -- I take that as evidence of REAL improvement.

Some need it and get worse, in fact. much much without it, no matter what naturapathic regime is used. Also one can go for many years with lyme without significant impairment. Some don't even get sick from it (ie. lots of this situation in europe).

I also repectfully disagree with you on this.

All I can say is that I wish your recommendations worked for me, it would have saved me from seeing hell in the first person. I cut out all that stuff you mention (and more, like regular tap water, canned fish etc.) 4 years ago when I got progressively more sick. I also exercised due to the obviously bennificial response AND maintained VERY positive attitude, which is hard to do when you need a cane to walk around, have slurred speach like a stroke victim and crap in your pants because you have lost muscle control( it is particulalry bad when if goes down your leg into our shoes.)

With all this self empowerment and diligence the trip was still one way... Down hill. In fact did not even have an idea of what was wrong until stumbled on to lyme. Went on IV and improved in 3 weeks vs 2 years of going no where trying to boost the immune system and self control the disease using naturopathic approaches.

Note that rife is NOT a naturopathic treatment. A lot of money and research has gone into the effects of low freqeuncy EM radiation and it possible link to things like child hood leukemia. I personally know 3 people that worked on such a project.

This possible link was proposed due to the appearance of a number of disease clusters in high EM field areas. These where field strengths where very low levels as compared to the levels some are using for rife.

While the link was never established as being conclusive, there is now work being done of establising the modality of influence that em fields have on the bio-electric phisiology of living cells. There appears to be an effect even with very small fields, but the bottom line is that none of these fields occur in nature and are entirely man made, thus the statement that Rife is not a naturopathic treatment.

Also the long term result of exposure is not known, although based on day to day experience with machinery that uses variable speed motors shows that there is no obvious negative effects.

As a side note on the subject of Rife, if you want to make one real big Rife machine you can use a AC variable drive that is used to control varible speed motors. The drives can be obtained surplus with drive powers of 10's of kilowatts and many can output high freqency (some do up to 10's of Khz)sine waves into highly reactive loads without the need for capacitors (ie large inductance coils). The frequency is often adjustable with a digital control and/or external resistor. A new 1Kw unit costs less than a $1000.

Such as device can exceed audio amp powers by orderd of magnitudes, if you need it.

Good to hear you are doing better from "Lyme"... you can leave the "s" off, by the way.

Are you still working for the IV company after going the "natural" route? If so.. are you able to convince folks that contact you to not use IV antibiotics before they start them?

Are you able to convince them to go "natural" instead of using your services? It seems that would be bad for business if you were able to talk them out of it I guess... but are they receptive to the idea... and has it worked for them?

I think building your immune system is a very important project for most folks who are ill. Unfortunately, some folks can not fight infectious organisms with only their immune system... no matter how strong they are... especially those who have multiple infections.

I am glad you are feeling better and hope you stay well for a long while. I am happy to hear what works for you.

I do want to comment some specific suggestions you made..

You said..

"Try a hot bath. First apply castor oil to your entire body besides your face. Then soak in the tub as hot as you can without scalding. When you get out wrap yourself in a blanket and sweat it out for 1/2hour to an hour."

Just so you know..

If you do this .. you could die.

Every time I see someone recommend this type of procedure I feel I MUST warn them to be VERY careful and to NOT do it unless their doctor approves.

Many Lyme patients have heart involvement.. and/or blood pressure problems (flucuations). Some folks know of the problems they have.. some don't.

This could be VERY dangerous and should ONLY be done after being checked by a doctor and ONLY with their approval.

You said...

"Long term abx use wrecks havoc on your body."

Yes.. it is true. No one enjoys the thought of long term, or even short term antibiotics... but sometimes they are necessary. Sort of like chemotherapy for cancer patients. No one likes it.. but it has saved lives.

I also want to be sure folks know that herbs, vitamins, and supplements can also wreck havock on the body in some cases too.

Many herbs have side effects and can not be used by certain people for various reasons. Vitamins in wrong doses can cause bad problems also.... and have side effects.

For example.. Vitamin C. It can really upset the stomach. So can acidophulis, FOS, and milk based supplements.

Some herbs thin the blood to dangerous levels, some raise blood pressure. Some can only be used for limited time periods, some can only be taken with other herbs to work effectively.

It is not an "all clear and safe" when using any medicines... "natural" or not... just so folks know.

You said..

"Also, a Lyme patient is a huge money maker to the Dr. and all involved. Don't doubt it for a minute that our being sick with this disease bring lots of money to many people."

Over the years my health costs.. doctors, tests, and meds/supplements have cost nearly one million dollars.

Since I have been seeing a LLMD... my costs for the last couple of years has been less than what it cost me for only a couple of months worth ... before I saw a LLMD.

In other words.. if I had gotten the right treatment in the first place.. I would have saved nearly a million dollars.

Supplements are often very useful.. but they can be very pricey also.. and are often needed for longer periods of time to achieve the same results in many cases.

Don't get me wrong... I LOVE the idea of dropping drugs from my system every chance I get. I have slowly been able to replace most of my "drugs" with natural things... but to find what worked for me was VERY costly... and continues to be.

I also want to mention....

I have NEVER gone to a doctor before I had a LLMD (including "natural" doctors) who didn't charge me full price for everything... and even for "nothing".

Since I have been working closely with LLMD's over the years... I have seen more "breaks" given to more folks than I can count. The LLMD's are the most generous people I have seen... both with their time and money.

I hope you continue to improve and continue to share your good experiences with others.

I LOVE it when a plan comes together!!!

Thank you for posting your experience.
I feel your message is very important as we all need to be aware of our many treatment options and their possible side effects.

By keeping an open mind, we will each find our own, unique path back to wellness...as what may work for one person may not work for the next.

and I absolutely agree - while drs may be very helpful, only we can heal ourselves.

I agreee that we all must keep striving to get to that point..

But please keep in mind that for many patients. aggresive abx therapies are REQUIRED at some point in their illness in order to arrest raging infection that can cause very severe symptoms.

This is highly individualized, but due to the powere in these infections, and the inability for our own natural immune state to address them under certain circumstances..in some cases aggresive abx's allow someone to get out of a whelchair, arrest severe neiro symptoms such as seizure and psychosis, heart conditions, or other symptoms of masive infection, and then hope to segue into balance and management of immune function and all the complications that come from the infection and treatment.

This is extremely complex, and I think you are right on about what we need to get well..but I am also convinced that abx is also a tool many of us need to have hope of regaining our lives, and a level of functioning where we have a fighting chance at getting to all the rest of what is necessary to achieve health.

Mo

This person could be wasting valuable time in treatment that could take them from Lyme into Chronic Lyme.

The fact is, Lyme is a serious illness that is little understood by most of the medical community.

A patient's best chance at recovery is to seek the advice of a LLMD (Lyme-Literate Medical Doctor) BEFORE deciding on which method of treatment is best for them.

Please keep in mind that Lyme is a serious illness and requires long-term care in most instances. It may take twice as long to cure as you have been ill (hence the time critical factor above).

If you are deciding on a treatment, your best chance at recovery is to do your homework and read all you can; talk to many people that walked this road before you before you decide how to proceed.

Remember, you can't believe everything you read on the internet.

I "managed" my Lyme for about 10 years before I was properly diagnosed. I did this through diet, exercise, all the things you mention. When I was re-infected my immune system simply could not fight the massive BB in my system and the co-infections.

My MD started me on some pretty agressive abx protocols, which made me sicker than I ever thought I could be. He said this might happen as the bugs die off.

After 8 months I threw in the towel - couldn't handle the abx or the disease. My MD supported my decision to try alternative routes to healing. Within a couple of months I was back on abx and in the hospital. I was sicker than ever and had lost alot of ground.

With the help of my MDs, a Nutritionist & a chiropractor, I am steadily improving, albeit slowly, while on a combination of abx and alternative natural healing methods. I think that is the key. Can I give up candy, sugar, etc. You bet! I think most of us here are keenly aware of the things we have to "give up" in order to get well.

I applaud you for being able to stay well without abx. I plan to be there too some day. As for $$$ that goes to conventional treatment.........well, my Naturopathic treatments are costing me a small fortune and insurance does not cover that. Without insurance helping with my conventional therapy I would be flat broke and not able to afford any treatment, natural or otherwise.

I sincerely hope you stay well and that you will continue to share your success with this forum. It does give us some hope.

``Build your immune system with exersize,herbs,and supplements.''

Except that many Lyme sufferers can't exercise it causes symptoms to ramp up and can make for a very painful day. Saying take herbs and supplements is too simple some supplements, even the ones that come from ND's, are junk many are too big or compat to absorb this is a common problem with Magnesium which is a critical mineral that many Lyme sufferers are short on.

``Get plenty of purified water and sleep.''

Good luck with the sleep part lots of Lyme sufferers can't get hardly any sleep and any they do get is light and interrupted. As far as water goes I don't know what you mean by purified but to me if it less then double reverse osmosis water its not pure, but that's just me and folks can have different opinions.

``Colonics and enemas are needed.''

Nope they are not they do help clear things out but they are not needed and should not be done too often.

The hot bath this is fine and I am really glad it worked for you but Lyme is a very individual illness and there is no one catch all answer. Don't forget that's what the ducks want to shove down your throat that there is only one answer and everything else is junk. The key to Lymes is try as much of everything as you can do. Talk to lots of people. I just got back from Louisiana Layfatte and saw some pretty amazing things but that's another story.

The point is please remember that just because one thing worked for you does not mean everyone will benefit you need to listen to each person and treat them like they are individuals.

Benjamin Wyatt

But there are just as much getting better on abx. So to tell us all we are wrong for doing abx, is like preaching to the choir. Some of us ARE getting relief.

id be dead without abx, period.

Time to go take a biaxin.

Serious hypersensitivity reactions may require epinephrine, antihistamines or corticosteroids.

Several studies of HIV positive patients receiving clarithromycin for treatment of M. avium complex infection (MAC) have shown poorer survival in those patients randomized to receive doses higher than 500 mg b.i.d. The explanation for the poorer survival associated with doses higher than 500 mg b.i.d. has not been determined. Treatment or prophylaxis of MAC infection with clarithromycin should not exceed the approved dose of 500 mg b.i.d.

Pregnancy: Clarithromycin should not be used in pregnancy except where no alternative therapy is appropriate, particularly during the first 3 months of pregnancy. If pregnancy occurs while taking the drug, the patient should be apprised of the potential hazard to the fetus. Clarithromycin has demonstrated adverse effects on pregnancy outcome and/or embryo-fetal development in monkeys, mice, rats and rabbits at doses that produced plasma levels 2 to 17 times the serum levels obtained in humans treated at the maximum recommended doses.

Pseudomembranous colitis has been reported with nearly all antibacterial agents, including macrolides, and may range in severity from mild to life-threatening. Therefore, it is important to consider this diagnosis in patients who present with diarrhea subsequent to the administration of antibacterial agents, including clarithromycin.

Treatment with antibacterial agents alters the normal flora of the colon and may permit overgrowth of clostridia. Studies indicate that a toxin produced by C. difficile is a primary cause of "antibiotic-associated colitis".

After the diagnosis of pseudomembranous colitis has been established, therapeutic measures should be initiated. Mild cases of pseudomembranous colitis usually respond to discontinuation of the drug alone. In moderate to severe cases, consideration should be given to management with fluids and electrolytes, protein supplementation, and treatment with an antibacterial drug effective against C. difficile.

Precautions: General: Clarithromycin is principally excreted by the liver and kidney (see Dosage). In patients with both hepatic and renal impairments or in the presence of severe renal impairment, decreased dosage of clarithromycin or prolonged dosing intervals might be appropriate.

The development of resistance (11 out of 19 breakthrough isolates in one study) has been seen in HIV positive patients receiving clarithromycin for prophylaxis and treatment of MAC infection.

H. pylori Eradication and Compliance: To avoid failure of the eradication treatment with a potential for developing antimicrobial resistance and a risk of failure with subsequent therapy, patients should be instructed to follow closely the prescribed regimen.

For the eradication of H. pylori, amoxicillin and clarithromycin should not be administered to patients with renal impairment since the appropriate dosage in this patient population has not yet been established.

Antibiotic Resistance in Relation to H. pylori Eradication: Triple and Dual Therapy with Omeprazole: Among the 113 triple therapy recipients with pretreatment H. pylori isolates susceptible to clarithromycin, 2/102 patients (2%) developed resistance after treatment with omeprazole, clarithromycin, and amoxicillin. Among patients who received triple therapy, 6/108 (5.6%) patients had pretreatment H. pylori isolates resistant to clarithromycin. Of these 6 patients, 3 (50%) had H. pylori eradicated at follow-up, and 3 (50%) remained positive after treatment. In 5/113 (4.4%) patients, no susceptibility data for clarithromycin pretreatment were available. Twenty-six patients 26/104 (25%) with pretreatment isolates susceptible to clarithromycin developed resistance after treatment with omeprazole and clarithromycin.

Development of clarithromycin resistance should be considered as a possible risk especially when less efficient treatment regimens are used.

Drug Interactions: Theophylline: Clarithromycin use in patients who are receiving theophylline may be associated with an increase of serum theophylline concentrations. Monitoring of serum theophylline concentrations should be considered for patients receiving high doses of theophylline or with baseline concentrations in the upper therapeutic range.

Carbamazepine: Clarithromycin administration in patients receiving carbamazepine has been reported to cause increased levels of carbamazepine. Blood level monitoring of carbamazepine may be considered.

Terfenadine/Astemizole: Macrolides have been reported to alter the metabolism of terfenadine resulting in increased serum levels of terfenadine which has occasionally been associated with cardiac arrhythmias such as QT prolongation, ventricular tachycardia, ventricular fibrillation and torsades de pointes (see Contraindications).

In a study involving 14 healthy volunteers, the concomitant administration of clarithromycin tablets and terfenadine resulted in a 2- to 3-fold increase in the serum level of the acid metabolite of terfenadine, MDL 16, 455, and in prolongation of the QT interval which did not lead to any clinically detectable effect. Similar effects have been observed with concomitant administration of astemizole and other macrolides.

Cisapride/Pimozide: Elevated cisapride levels have been reported in patients receiving clarithromycin and cisapride concomitantly. This may result in QT prolongation and cardiac arrhythmias including ventricular tachycardia, ventricular fibrillation and torsades de pointes. Similar effects have been observed in patients taking clarithromycin and pimozide concomitantly (see Contraindications).

Zidovudine: Simultaneous oral administration of clarithromycin tablets and zidovudine to HIV-infected adult patients may result in decreased steady-state zidovudine concentrations. Clarithromycin appears to interfere with the absorption of simultaneously administered oral zidovudine, therefore this interaction can be largely avoided by staggering the doses of clarithromycin and zidovudine.

Didanosine: Simultaneous administration of clarithromycin tablets and didanosine to 12 HIV-infected adult patients resulted in no statistically significant change in didanosine pharmacokinetics.

Fluconazole: Concomitant administration of fluconazole 200 mg daily and clarithromycin 500 mg twice daily to 21 healthy volunteers led to increases in the mean steady-state clarithromycin Cmin and AUC of 33% and 18%, respectively. Steady-state concentrations of 14-OH clarithromycin were not significantly affected by concomitant administration of fluconazole.

Digoxin: Elevated digoxin serum concentrations have been reported in patients receiving clarithromycin tablets and digoxin concomitantly. In postmarketing surveillance, some patients have shown clinical signs consistent with digoxin toxicity, including arrhythmias. Serum digoxin levels should be carefully monitored while patients are receiving digoxin and clarithromycin simultaneously.

Ritonavir: A pharmacokinetic study demonstrated that the concomitant administration of ritonavir 200 mg q 8 hours and clarithromycin 500 mg q 12 hours resulted in a marked inhibition of the metabolism of clarithromycin. The clarithromycin Cmax increased by 31%, Cmin increased 182% and AUC increased by 77% with concomitant administration of ritonavir. An essentially complete inhibition of the formation of 14-[R]-hydroxy-clarithromycin was noted. Because of the large therapeutic window for clarithromycin, no dosage reduction should be necessary in patients with normal renal function. However, for patients with renal impairment, the following dosage adjustments should be considered: For patients with CLCR 30 to 60 mL/min the dose of clarithromycin should be reduced by 50%. For patients with CLCR < 30 mL/min the dose of clarithromycin should be decreased by 75%. Doses of clarithromycin greater than 1 g/day should not be coadministered with ritonavir.

Lovastatin/Simvastatin: Rhabdomyolysis coincident with the coadministration of clarithromycin and the HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors, lovastatin and simvastatin, has rarely been reported.

Combination Therapy With Omeprazole and/or Amoxicillin: For more information on drug interactions for omeprazole and amoxicillin, refer to their respective product monographs, under Precautions, Drug Interactions.

Others: As with other macrolide antibiotics, the use of clarithromycin in patients concurrently taking drugs metabolized by the cytochrome P450 system (e.g., warfarin, ergot alkaloids, triazolam, midazolam, lovastatin, disopyramide, phenytoin, cyclosporine and rifabutin) may be associated with elevations in serum levels of these other drugs.

There have been reports of drug interactions when erythromycin, another macrolide, has been given concomitantly with drugs metabolized by the cytochrome P450 system, such as hexobarbital, alfentanil, bromocriptine or valproate. Serum concentrations of drugs metabolized by the cytochrome P450 system should be monitored closely in patients concurrently receiving erythromycin.

Pregnancy: There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. The benefits against risk, particularly during the first 3 months of pregnancy should be carefully weighed by a physician (see Warnings). Four teratogenicity studies in rats (3 with oral doses and 1 with i.v. doses up to 160 mg/kg/day administered during the period of major organogenesis) and 2 in rabbits (at oral doses up to 125 mg/kg/day or i.v. doses of 30 mg/kg/day administered during gestation days 6 to 18) failed to demonstrate any teratogenicity from clarithromycin. Two additional oral studies in a different rat strain at similar doses and similar conditions demonstrated a low incidence of cardiovascular anomalies at doses of 150 mg/kg/day administered during gestation days 6 to 15. Plasma levels after 150 mg/kg/day were 2 times the human serum levels.

Four studies in mice revealed a variable incidence of cleft palate following oral doses of 1 000 mg/kg/day during gestation days 6 to 15. Cleft palate was also seen at 500 mg/kg/day. The 1 000 mg/kg/day exposure resulted in plasma levels 17 times the human serum levels. In monkeys, an oral dose of 70 mg/kg/day produced fetal growth retardation at plasma levels that were 2 times the human serum levels.

Embryonic loss has been seen in monkeys and rabbits.

Lactation: The safety of clarithromycin for use during breast-feeding of infants has not been established. Clarithromycin is excreted in human milk.

Preweaned rats, exposed indirectly via consumption of milk from dams treated with 150 mg/kg/day for 3 weeks, were not adversely affected, despite data indicating higher drug levels in milk than in plasma.

Children: Use of clarithromycin tablets in children under 12 years of age has not been studied.

Use of clarithromycin granules for suspension in children under 6 months has not been studied. In pneumonia, clarithromycin granules were not studied in children younger than 3 years.

The safety of clarithromycin has not been studied in MAC patients under the age of 20 months. Neonatal and juvenile animals tolerated clarithromycin in a manner similar to adult animals. Young animals were slightly more intolerant to acute overdosage and to subtle reductions in erythrocytes, platelets and leukocytes, but were less sensitive to toxicity in the liver, kidney, thymus and genitalia.

Increased valproate and phenobarbital concentrations and extreme sedation were noted in a 3-year-old patient coincident with clarithromycin therapy. Cause and effect relationship cannot be established. However, monitoring of valproate and phenobarbital concentrations may be considered.

Geriatrics: Dosage adjustment should be considered in elderly patients with severe renal impairment. In a steady-state study in which healthy elderly subjects (age 65 to 81 years old) were given 500 mg every 12 hours, the maximum concentrations of clarithromycin and 14-OH clarithromycin were increased. The AUC was also increased. These changes in pharmacokinetics parallel known age-related decreases in renal function. In clinical trials, elderly patients did not have an increased incidence of adverse events when compared to younger patients.

Adverse Reactions: Tablets: Patients With Respiratory Tract or Skin Infections: The majority of side effects observed in clinical trials involving 3 563 patients treated with clarithromycin were of a mild and transient nature. Fewer than 3% of adult patients without mycobacterial infections discontinued therapy because of drug-related side effects.

The following adverse reactions were reported during these clinical studies or during postmarketing surveillance: Body as a Whole: headache (2%), asthenia, infection, back pain, pain and chest pain.

Digestive: nausea (4%), diarrhea (3%), abdominal pain (2%), dyspepsia (2%), vomiting (1%), constipation, flatulence, dry mouth, glossitis, stomatitis, gastrointestinal disorder, anorexia, oral moniliasis, tongue discoloration, hepatomegaly and pseudomembranous colitis. There have been reports of tooth discoloration in patients treated with clarithromycin. Tooth discoloration is usually reversible with professional dental cleaning.

As with other macrolides, hepatic dysfunction, including increased liver enzymes, and hepatocellular and/or cholestatic hepatitis, with or without jaundice, has been infrequently reported with clarithromycin. This hepatic dysfunction may be severe and is usually reversible. In very rare instances, hepatic failure with fatal outcome has been reported and generally has been associated with serious underlying diseases and/or concomitant medications.

Metabolic: There have been rare reports of hypoglycemia, some of which have occurred in patients on concomitant oral hypoglycemic agents or insulin.

Nervous System: dizziness, vertigo, tinnitus, nervousness, anxiety, insomnia, nightmares, somnolence, depression, confusion, disorientation, depersonalization, hallucinations and psychosis.

Respiratory: rhinitis, cough increased, dyspnea, pharyngitis and asthma.

Skin and Appendages: pruritus, rash, sweating; allergic reactions ranging from urticaria and mild skin eruptions to anaphylaxis and Stevens-Johnson syndrome have occurred with orally administered clarithromycin.

Special Senses: taste perversion (2%), ear disorder, abnormal vision and conjunctivitis. There have been reports of hearing loss with clarithromycin which is usually reversible upon withdrawal of therapy. Reports of alteration of the sense of smell, usually in conjunction with taste perversion have also been reported.

Urogenital: hematuria, vaginal moniliasis, vaginitis and dysmenorrhea.

Hemic and Lymphatic: eosinophilia, anemia, leukopenia and thrombocythemia. Isolated cases of thrombocytopenia have been reported.

Changes in Laboratory Values: Changes in laboratory values with possible clinical significance were as follows:

Hepatic: elevated ALT <1%, AST <1%, GGT <1%, alkaline phosphatase <1%, LDH <1% and total bilirubin <1%.

Hematologic: decreased WBC <1% and elevated prothrombin time (1%).

Renal: elevated BUN (4%) and elevated serum creatinine <1%.

Others: The following adverse reactions have not been observed in clinical trials with clarithromycin but they have been occasionally reported with erythromycin, another macrolide: cardiac arrhythmias such as ventricular tachycardia and torsades de pointes in individuals with prolonged QT intervals and CNS side effects (including seizures).

In studies of adults with pneumonia comparing clarithromycin to erythromycin base or erythromycin stearate, there were significantly fewer adverse events involving the digestive system in patients treated with clarithromycin.

Patients with Mycobacterial Infections: In AIDS and other immunocompromised patients treated with the higher doses of clarithromycin over long periods of time for prevention or treatment of mycobacterial infections, it was often difficult to distinguish adverse events possibly associated with clarithromycin administration from underlying signs of HIV disease or intercurrent illness.

(Other adverse reactions have been observed in different patient populations. Please also refer to Patients With Respiratory Tract or Skin Infections.)

Prophylaxis: Discontinuation due to adverse events was required in 18% of AIDS patients receiving clarithromycin 500 mg b.i.d., compared to 17% of patients receiving placebo in a randomized, double-blind study (561). Primary reasons for discontinuation in the clarithromycin-treated patients include headache, nausea, vomiting, depression and taste perversion. The most frequently reported adverse events with an incidence of 2% or greater, excluding those due to the patient's concurrent condition, are listed in Table I. Among these events, taste perversion was the only event that had significantly higher incidence in the clarithromycin-treated compared to the placebo-treated group.

Changes in Laboratory Values: In immunocompromised patients receiving prophylaxis against M. avium, those laboratory values outside the extreme high or low limit for the specified test were analyzed (see Table II).

Treatment of Patients with Mycobacterial Infections: Excluding those patients who discontinued therapy due to complications of their underlying nonmycobacterial diseases (including death), approximately 14% of the patients discontinued therapy due to drug-related adverse events.

In adult patients, the most frequently reported adverse events with an incidence of 3% or greater, excluding those due to the patient's concurrent condition, are listed in Table III by the total daily dose the patient was receiving at the time of the event. A total of 867 patients were treated with clarithromycin for mycobacterial infections. Of these, 43% reported one or more adverse events. Most of these events were described as mild to moderate in severity, although 14% were described as severe.

Incidence of adverse events was higher in patients taking 4 000 mg doses compared to lower doses (see Table III).

A limited number of pediatric AIDS patients have been treated with clarithromycin suspension for mycobacterial infections. The most frequently reported adverse events, excluding those due to the patient's concurrent condition, are listed in Table IV by the total daily dose of clarithromycin the patient received.

Changes in Laboratory Values: In immunocompromised patients treated with clarithromycin for mycobacterial infections, evaluations of laboratory values were made by analyzing those values outside the seriously abnormal level (i.e., the extreme high or low limit) for the specified test (see Tables V and VI).

Patients With H. pylori Infection: Triple Therapy: Clarithromycin/omeprazole/amoxicillin: Forty-four percent (60/137) of the patients in the triple therapy group and 43% (56/130) of the patients in the dual therapy group reported at least 1 adverse event; this difference between the two treatment groups was not statistically significant (p > 0.999).

Similarly, there was no statistically significant difference (p > 0.999) between the treatment groups for the number of patients reporting one or more drug-related adverse events. Thirty-three percent (33%; 45/137) of the patients in the triple therapy group reported adverse events considered possibly or probably related to study drug, compared with 32% (42/130) of the patients in the dual therapy group (p > 0.999). The rate of drug-related adverse events when evaluated by body system was very similar for both treatment groups. However, a trend toward statistical significance was noted for drug-related adverse events associated with special senses. The most common special sense adverse event was taste perversion, which was reported more frequently in patients treated with dual therapy as compared to triple therapy (18%, 23/130 vs 9%, 13/137, respectively; p = 0.072).

A summary of drug-related adverse event incidence rates by treatment group is presented in Table VII.

Patients With H. pylori Infection: Dual Therapy: Clarithromycin/omeprazole: Of 346 patients, 156 (45%) reported at least one adverse event. Adverse events associated with the digestive, body as a whole, and special senses body systems were the most commonly reported adverse events among clarithromycin/omeprazole-treated patients. Eighty-three patients (24%) reported digestive system adverse events. The adverse events occurring most frequently in the digestive system were gastrointestinal events, of which nausea (5%), diarrhea (4%), vomiting (3%), and abdominal pain (3%) were the most common. Fifty-seven patients (16%) reported adverse events in the body as a whole body system. Headache (5%), infection (3%), and pain (2%) were the most frequently reported events in the body as a whole category. Fifty-four patients (16%) reported adverse events in the special senses body system; taste perversion was reported by 53 of these patients. Adverse events by body system for all patients treated with clarithromycin and omeprazole are presented in Table VIII.

(Other adverse reactions have been observed in different patient populations. Please also refer to Patients With Respiratory Tract or Skin Infections.)

The most commonly reported adverse events for the 346 patients who received clarithromycin and omeprazole were: taste perversion (15%), nausea (5%), headache (5%), diarrhea (4%), vomiting (3%), abdominal pain (3%), and infection (3%). Table IX presents adverse events reported by 1% or more of clarithromycin/omeprazole-treated patients.

Twelve (4%) of the clarithromycin/omeprazole-treated patients prematurely discontinued from study drug therapy due to adverse events. The most frequently reported adverse events leading to withdrawal included taste perversion, nausea, and headache.

Three patients treated with clarithromycin and omeprazole died during follow-up periods; none of the deaths were considered by the investigator to be related to study drug administration.

Few laboratory abnormalities were observed among clarithromycin/omeprazole-treated patients. The incidence of possibly clinically significant hematology and serum chemistry variables was <1 % for any variable evaluated.

Pediatric Granules for Suspension: The safety profile of clarithromycin pediatric granules for suspension is similar to that of the 250 mg tablet in adult patients. (Please also refer to Patients With Respiratory Tract or Skin Infections).

As with other macrolides, hepatic dysfunction, including increased liver enzymes, and hepatocellular and/or cholestatic hepatitis, with or without jaundice, has been infrequently reported with clarithromycin. This hepatic dysfunction may be severe and is usually reversible. In very rare instances, hepatic failure with fatal outcome has been reported and generally has been associated with serious underlying diseases and/or concomitant medications.

Allergic reactions ranging from urticaria and mild skin eruptions to anaphylaxis and Stevens-Johnson syndrome have occurred with orally administered clarithromycin.

571/1 829 (31%) of the patients who received clarithromycin pediatric granules reported at least 1 adverse event. The adverse events reported are summarized in Table X.

The majority of the patients with adverse events reported events in the digestive (302; 17%) and body as a whole (168; 9%) body systems.

The events occurring most frequently in the digestive system were gastrointestinal events of which diarrhea (7%), vomiting (7%), abdominal pain (3%), dyspepsia (3%) and nausea (1%) were the most common. Glossitis, stomatitis and oral monilia have also been reported with clarithromycin therapy.

Other adverse events included infection (3%), rhinitis (2.2%), rash (2.2%), increased cough (2.1%), fever (2.2%), headache (1.6%), conjunctivitis (1.1%), taste perversion (3%) and transient elevation of AST (0.9%).

The majority of adverse events were considered by the investigators to have either mild or moderate severity. 375/1 829 patients (21%) had a mild adverse events, 175/1 829 patients (10%) had moderate adverse events and 20/1 829 patients (1%) had severe adverse events.

In the 2 U.S. acute otitis media studies of clarithromycin vs antimicrobial/beta-lactamase inhibitor, the incidence of adverse events in all patients treated, primarily diarrhea (15% vs 38%) and diaper rash (3% vs 11%) in young children, was clinically or statistically lower in the clarithromycin arm vs the control arm.

In another U.S. otitis media study of clarithromycin vs cephalosporin, the incidence of adverse events in all patients treated, primarily diarrhea and vomiting, did not differ clinically or statistically for the two agents.

Symptoms And Treatment Of Overdose: Symptoms and Treatment: Reports indicate that the ingestion of large amounts of clarithromycin can be expected to produce gastrointestinal symptoms. Adverse reactions accompanying overdosage should be treated by the prompt elimination of unabsorbed drug and supportive measures.

Clarithromycin is protein bound (70%). No data are available on the elimination of clarithromycin by hemodialysis or peritoneal dialysis.

Dosage And Administration: May be given with or without meals.

Tablets: Adults with Respiratory Tract or Skin Infections: The usual adult dosage is 250 to 500 mg every 12 hours (see Table XI) for 7 to 14 days.

For more severe infections or those caused by less susceptible organisms, the upper dosage should be used.

In the treatment of Group A streptococcus infections, therapy should be continued for 10 days. The usual drug of choice in the treatment of streptococcal infections and the prophylaxis of rheumatic fever is penicillin administered by either the i.m. or the oral route. Clarithromycin is generally effective in the eradication of S. pyogenes from the nasopharynx; however, data establishing the efficacy of clarithromycin in the subsequent prevention of rheumatic fever are not presently available.

In patients with renal impairment and a creatinine clearance less than 30 mL/min, the dosage of clarithromycin should be reduced by one-half, i.e., 250 mg once daily, or 250 mg twice daily in more severe infections. Dosage should not be continued beyond 14 days in these patients.

In patients with both hepatic and renal impairments or in the presence of severe renal impairment, decreased dosage of clarithromycin or prolonged dosing intervals may be appropriate. Clarithromycin may be administered without dosage adjustment in the presence of hepatic impairment if there is normal renal function.

Eradication of H. pylori: Triple Therapy: Clarithromycin/ omeprazole/amoxicillin: The recommended dose is clarithromycin 500 mg b.i.d. in conjunction with amoxicillin 1 g b.i.d. and omeprazole 20 mg daily for 10 days.

For more information on omeprazole or amoxicillin, refer to their respective Product Monographs, under Dosage.

(For additional information on the use of clarithromycin in triple therapy for the treatment of H. pylori infection and active duodenal ulcer recurrence, refer to the Hp-PAC product monograph.)

Dual Therapy: Clarithromycin/omeprazole: In patients who are sensitive to penicillin-based therapy (e.g., amoxicillin), dual therapy with clarithromycin and omeprazole may provide a feasible alternative.

The recommended dose is clarithromycin 500 mg t.i.d plus omeprazole 40 mg daily for 14 days, followed by 20 mg omeprazole daily for 14 days.

Optimal therapeutic regimens consisting of a shorter treatment duration for the eradication of H. pylori are yet to be determined.

Adults with Mycobacterial Infections: Prophylaxis: The recommended dose of clarithromycin for the prevention of disseminated M. avium disease is 500 mg b.i.d.

Treatment: Clarithromycin is recommended as the primary agent for the treatment of disseminated infection due to M. avium complex. Clarithromycin should be used in combination with other antimycobacterial drugs which have shown in vitro activity against MAC, including ethambutol, clofazimine, and rifampin. Although no controlled clinical trial information is available for combination therapy with clarithromycin, the U.S. Public Health Service Task Force has provided recommendations for the treatment of MAC.

The recommended dose for mycobacterial infections in adults is 500 mg b.i.d.

Treatment of disseminated MAC infections in AIDS patients should continue for life if clinical and mycobacterial improvement are observed.

Pediatric Granules for Suspension: The recommended daily dosage of clarithromycin is 15 mg/kg/day, in divided doses every 12 hours, not to exceed 1 000 mg/day. The usual duration of treatment is for 5 to 10 days depending on the pathogen involved and the severity of the condition. Treatment for pharyngitis caused by Streptococcal spp. should be 10 days.

In children with renal impairment and a creatinine clearance less than 30 mL/min, the dosage of clarithromycin should be reduced by one-half, i.e., up to 250 mg once daily, or 250 mg twice daily in more severe infections. Dosage should not be continued beyond 14 days in these patients. Table XII is a suggested guide for determining dosage.

The reconstituted suspension must not be refrigerated.

Children with Mycobacterial Infections: Clarithromycin is recommended as the primary agent for the treatment of disseminated infection due to M. avium complex. Clarithromycin should be used in combination with other antimycobacterial drugs which have shown in vitro activity against MAC, including ethambutol, clofazimine, and rifampin. Although no controlled clinical trial information is available for combination therapy with clarithromycin, the U.S. Public Health Service Task Force has provided recommendations for the treatment of MAC.

In children, the recommended dose is 7.5 mg/kg b.i.d. up to 500 mg b.i.d. clarithromycin/day in 2 divided doses. Dosing recommendations for children are in Table XII.

I would tend very much to agree with you that antibiotics are at this point in time over used I also think that the only appropriate dose of Neurontin is zero. However that being said people need to look at all the options available to them. I think too many folks get hooked up with something and just go along with the flow.

At this point I have hands on experience with antibiotics (orals and IV), alpha infernos, naturopathic pleos and other immune support supplements, Transfer factor, several types of rife machines, HBO therapy, infared saunas, ozone sauna, therapy, mineral support systems, as well as synthetic drugs. I can tell you as a statement of fact that at this point no one way is the only way to go.

Some will work well for some folks other will not see a great deal of help some need a mixture of two or more of the modalities. There is no one catch all system. Although right now I just spent a week in Lafayette and am initially very impressed with what I just saw this week, its only one week and I need more time to see how plays out but so far some very interesting stuff.

Antibiotics are going to have some side effects that's just way it is but some folks respond very well to them and see improvement to those people I would say don't give up looking for things you can do to help yourself but don't be discouraged from using something that works.

If you want to like a long list of antibiotic side effects and can point out that very often naturopath supplements have very poor absorption rate and that you can be receiving as little as 10% of what you are supposed to be getting out of the supplement. Or even if you are getting absorption the carrier on the supplement can make the molecule too big for you cells to make use of.

That being said I like ND's and would recommend that anyone suffering from Lyme see an ND about immune support. However, nobody has a monopoly on knowledge.

And if you demand long term studies you may want to stick with a regular MD as you wont find many long term studies in your ND's office save the thing about this herb has been used for hundreds of years to treat XYZ.

I'm unclear on why you chose to reproduce those brochures? Of course folks here read the accompanying literature - in my experience, folks with LD are among the most informed and well-educated patients out there (of necessity!).

I could cite all the scary possible side effects and contraindications for your "natural herbs and supplements," too, but that doesn't really bring us anywhere, does it?

Have you personally tried antibiotics yourself? If you haven't, I'm not sure you can reasonably argue that other treatments are "just as effective." How would you know?

I completely understand that you've got sincere reservations about antibiotics, as would any intelligent person. But it seems counterproductive to keep citing the possible downsides of a treatment many folks have reluctantly chosen as a necessity to eliminate a very painful, very disabling disease they never asked for in the first place. Do you think they're not already aware of the downsides?

It's a little like telling diabetics that their injections might cause all kinds of skin troubles. They KNOW that already, but the injections help keep them healthy, and it's only cruel to keep harping on it to them.

I've found that people here do carefully weigh their options, and many have found that the evils of abx, such as they are, vastly outweigh the evils of Lyme Disease.

quote:

---

The long term side effects on many of these drugs simply are not know. Many chemotherapy drugs will eliminate one form of cancer only to cause another form farther down the road.

---

But without the chemo they might also be dead first. Would you seriously want to take away someone's right to choose which risks they're willing to take?

(And just by the way, LLMDs don't simply stick everyone on IV Rocephin. Do you have statistics on that?)

I think many folks will benefit from specific tips on methods that have worked for you. Please do share those! And I'm glad you're feeling better.

Allergy to salicylates or NSAIDs (more common in patients with nasal polyps, asthma, chronic urticaria);
allergy to tartrazine (cross-sensitivity to aspirin is common);
hemophilia, bleeding ulcers, hemmorhagic states, blood coagulation defects, hypoprothrombinemia, vitamin K deficiency (increased risk of bleeding);
impaired or renal function;
chickenpox, influenza (potential risk of Reye's syndrome in children and teenagers); children with fever accompanied by dehydration;
surgery scheduled within 1 wk; pregnancy (maternal anemia, antepartal and postpartal hemorrhage, prolonged gestation, and prolonged labor have been reported; readily crosses the placenta; possibly teratogenic; maternal ingestion of aspirin during late pregnancy has been associated with the following adverse fetal effects: low birth weight, increased intracranial hemorrhage, stillbirths, neonatal death);
lactation.

Adverse effects of Aspirin

GI: Nausea, dyspepsia, heartburn, epigastric discomfort, anorexia, hepatotoxicity
Hematologic: Occult blood loss, hemostatic defects
Hypersensitivity: Anaphylactoid reactions to fatal anaphylactic shock
Aspirin intolerance: Exacerbation of bronchospasm, rhinitis (in patients with nasal polyps, asthma, rhinitis)
Salicylism: Dizziness, tinnitus, difficulty hearing, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, mental confusion, lassitude (dose related)
Acute aspirin toxicity: Respiratory alkalosis, hyperpnea, tachypnea, hemorrhage, excitement, confusion, asterixis, pulmonary edema, convulsions, tetany, metabolic acidosis, fever, coma, cardiovascular collapse, renal and respiratory failure (dose related 20-25 g in adults, 4 g in children).

Sorry, I am trying to make a point. Any drug we take has a list of frightening possibilities to consider.

Drug warnings must be read thouroughly and acknowleged, but the bottom line is a risk/benefit ratio that must be weighed carefully in each case by patient and physician.

ie: My son just underwnt surgery..the list of possible adverse efects of Morphine is long. We have no choice in this kind of pain..

We take the risks seriously, and become educated in them, and how to best support the body through it's use, and to replenish it after.

Antibiotics are not sugar pills. They carry risk and detriment, but so does raging infection and the destruction done to tissue and cells with that infection active at high levels.

What other choice do we have when those levels are out of control?

We must weigh the risk vs. benefit, and make a decision with our doctors to sometimes to treat aggressively..and of course keep in mind the risks and work to counter them.

Thry are a TOOL, and ofetentimes in chronic, persistant, massive infection are necesary to utilize.

Personally, I was very healthy, and very alternative..turning to Chinese medicine for every ailment previously, even pre-Cancerous pap readings..I was active and excercised often.

I was then infected with Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, and Mycoplasma fermentans all at once.

Chinese Doc told me to run, not walk, to Western medicine, and stick with him for support during, and then aggressive therapies with him AFTER we lowered the load.

My son was in total psychosis..life threatenting behaviors and brain condition. Nearly NO blood to his brain at it's worst.

There was no option but long term aggresive abx's to address and reverse this. NONE.

I think what you are sharing as a point to consider is very valuable and I really believe we CANNOT figkt these infections with abx ALONE, but I think blanket statements emphasizing the dangers of antibiotics could be damaging to some patients at a point where they must consider utilizing them in order to ultimately beat these infections.

Certain infections and stages of illness simply cannot be effectively dealt with through "natural" tharapies. In many cases fooling around with alternatives can cause serious detriment to the patient as the infection lives on and disseminates further. This is just a fact.

Mo

Outpatient intravenous therapy is a multi-billion-a-year business. It remains largely unregulated and can cost patients thousands of dollars per week. Price-gouging, drug markups, kickbacks, and self-referral of patients by physicians with financial ties to infusion companies have occurred. In 1995, for example, Caremark, Inc., pled guilty to mail fraud charges for entering into illegal contracts with physicians by paying them to refer Medicaid patients to use Caremark's infusion products. The settlement provided for approximately $44.5 million in civil penalties and restitution from Caremark [19]. In Michigan, prosecutors charged a physician and Caremark employees with scheming to overbill Blue Cross/Blue Shield for drugs and equipment for patients with Lyme disease [20].

The intravenous antibiotic therapy administered to Lyme patients sometimes has disastrous results. During the early 1990s, the CDC described 25 cases of antibiotic-associated biliary complications among persons with suspected disseminated Lyme disease [21]. All patients had received intravenous ceftriaxone (Rocephin) for an average of 28 days for suspected Lyme disease. (Ceftriaxone can form precipitates in the presence of bile salts. The resulting "sludge" can block the bile duct.) Twelve patients subsequently developed gallstones. Fourteen underwent cholecystectomy to correct bile blockage. Twenty-two developed catheter-associated bloodstream infections. Yet most of the patients lacked documented evidence of disseminated Lyme disease or even antibodies to B. burgdorferi. In 2000, physicians reported the death of a 30-year-old woman who died from an infected intravenous set-up that had been left in place for more than two years. She was being treated for "chronic Lyme disease" that was unsubstantiated [22].

The risks and costs associated with such treatments were analyzed in a 1993 report whose authors concluded that most patients with a positive Lyme antibody titer whose only symptoms are fatigue or nonspecific muscle pains, the risks and costs of intravenous antibiotic therapy exceed the benefits [23].

In an Internet newsgroup post, a woman described being on intravenous Rocephin for 4 weeks, developing gallstones, and switching to another antibiotic regimen for three weeks. She also mentioned a sudden high fever, anemia, low white cell count, systemic pain, heart rhythm disturbance, and neurologic symptoms. Such descriptions are common among devout Lyme patients and provide an unsettling view into the desperate and dangerous measures some people will take to treat suspected Lyme disease. The woman ended her account by writing she had switched her medication to ciprofloxacin. This drug is potent but should not be used unnecessarily. Its adverse reactions include acute psychosis and other neuropsychiatric reactions [24].

Another patient said he was treated at a Mexican clinic where the doctor admitted that he and his staff knew little about Lyme disease. The patient wrote, "I started on IV Rocephin (two grams a day), and later added oral azithromycin. My symptoms did improved, but I soon hit a treatment plateau. We then tried IV doxycycline, but this made me sick to my stomach." He goes on to describe a long list of other drugs (IV Claforan, Cefobid/Unisyn, Premaxin, a second round of Cefobid/Uisyn, and IV Zithromax), followed by bouts of "severe diarrhea" and phlebitis. Three months and some $25,000 later, DMSO was added to another infusion of Zithromax.

A number of these so-called "Lyme-Literate Medical Doctors (LLMD) have been investigated for their extensive use of powerful intravenous antibiotics and other unconventional practices. In New York State, the Office of Professional Medical Conduct (OPMC) is investigated two or LLMD about their treatments of a large number of patients diagnosed as having chronic Lyme disease.

Such practices are likely to draw even greater scrutiny with the recent publication of the results of two clinical trials on chronic Lyme disease. The investigators noted "in these two trials, treatment with intravenous and oral antibiotics for 90 days did not improve symptoms more than placebo." [15]

"Herxing"
Many patients who believe they have chronic Lyme disease are willing to endure considerable discomfort in their effort to get rid of their symptoms. This behavior is fostered by the misguided belief that antibiotic therapies are not working unless they make the patient feel worse. These patients typically refer to this condition as "herxing," a colloquial term for the Jarisch-Herxheimer (J-H) reaction. This reaction is an acute response thought to be caused by a sudden release of allergy-causing or toxic substances when certain organisms (most notably the spirochete that causes syphilis) are attacked with antibiotics.

Just because someone writes something doesn't mean it is true. If we don't have the references , how can this be evaluated?

I believe the below information provides a fair advantage to all. Anyone wishing for the entire article, visit ILADS.org.

ILADS Mission Statement concerning antibiotics are items 11 and 12 from their information page:

Mission Statement

ILADS is a nonprofit, international, multidisciplinary medical society, dedicated to the diagnosis and appropriate treatment of Lyme and its associated diseases. ILADS promotes understanding of Lyme and its associated diseases through research and education and strongly supports physicians and other health care professionals dedicated to advancing the standard of care for Lyme and its associated diseases.

ILADS stance on antibiotics:

11) An uncomplicated case of chronic Lyme disease requires an average of 6-12 months of high dose antibiotic therapy. The return of symptoms and evidence of the continued presence of Borrelia burgdorferi indicates the need for further treatment. The very real consequences of untreated chronic persistent Lyme infection far outweigh the potential consequences of long term antibiotic therapy.

12) Many patients with Lyme disease require treatment for 1-4 years, OR UNTIL THE PATIENT IS SYMPTOM FREE. Relapses occur and maintenance antibiotics may be required. There are no tests available to assure us whether the organism is eradicated or the patient is cured.

I am happy for you that you are feeling better w/your choice of treatment. Anyone who can achieve wellness needs to share when we KNOW what works for one doesn't work for the other. Antibiotics OR natural.

"Lyme Disease: Questionable Diagnosis and Treatment" by Edward McSweegan, Ph.D., 2002
at: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/lyme.html

(It's Internet courtesy to the author to always cite the link or source for lengthy quotations. )

Salatheel, I'm a tad puzzled by your citing an article about Lyme by an author who doesn't believe in chronic Lyme symptoms, yet you have the disease yourself.

I'd still be quite curious to know what your symptoms are/were and what specific treatments healed which ones. It seems to me that this would be much more beneficial information to this community than your lengthy citations. Please do share more from your personal experience!

Everyone has some fear of long term antibiotics but you must weigh the possible consequences with the advantages.

My entire family was sick, my mother on her deathbed, my daughter was depressed with constant headaches and joint pain and stomach pain and I was unable to walk..........had to leave my job due to pain and stiffness. Imagine Herman Munster.that was me walking.This was all due to lyme and co-infections.

Two years on antibiotics and my 80 year old mother is living on her own and independant. My daughter is not a raging maniac but sweet and happy.

I can walk and can now remember simple things that I could not recall two years ago. We are not cured but definately improved!!

Antibiotics helped all of our lives tremendously.................consequences???? There may be side effects ..........but I weigh out the quality of life we all had prior to antibiotics.........
No one knows what tomorrow may hold so I am looking for quality of life for my mother daughter and myself................

Antibiotics have been the answer for all of us.............I will leave any future consequences in God's hands. I would shudder to think of our future without antibiotics.

My mother I am sure would be dead, my daughter would be suicidal and I would be in a wheelchair and unable to take care of either of them. There are consequences to EVERYTHING. Driving a car, flying in a plane............we accept those consequences.

All I can say is for my family, antibiotics saved our lives...........no a bad consequence!!!

aunty

The article cited was a quote from the infamous QUACKWATCH fool himself.

He has kicked the poo out of many natural treatments... more than even the Lyme treatments, in the past.

He was also tossed out on his ear from his job (which was dealing with Lyme)... big time.

Perhaps that isn't the best source to quote when trying to make a point.... especially since he is a laughing stock to most Lyme patients .. natural or not.

Of course the above is only my opinion...

Salatheel, I am happy you are currently finding relief with the non-pharmaceutical things you are doing.

But, please, keep in mind that many of us who have been ill with this for years or decades have already been down your road and perhaps that is the reason you are not receiving the kind of enthusiastic responses you'd hoped.

It's not that we're stupid or don't want to take on "new" information - but, for many of us it's the fact we've already been where you are and done what you're doing now and spent $$$$$$$ in the process.

I went to a very well known and highly esteemed complimentary medicine center in New York for several years. It helped at the beginning and then NOTHING worked anymore.

The disease progressed and only antibiotics are left to take.

I also cannot understand why you work in a situation where you are giving these drugs to people that you are trying to convince others (for free) not to take. Is it the money for you? I assume you do get paid to administer these drugs (???)

This seems a teeny weeny contradiction to me. It's OK for those who're paying your wages to take these drugs, but otherwise you advise people not to take them?

As far as side-effects and dangerous effects of drugs - there are possible dangers with ANY drug, even Tylenol can kill you.......You can even die from Stevens Johnson Syndrome without being on any drugs at all as even just a virus can cause it!

Many here take herbs and do other natural and complimentary things to go along with antibiotic treatment, to help detox, etc. so I do think most of us realize they are an important part of treatment, as do most LLMD's.

As far as everything in medicine being about money. Yes, that is often true and in your case it seems to be as you are accepting money to administer drugs you don't believe in (unless it's a volunteer job). But, nothing is free. ND's also charge for her services and herbs, etc.

Please keep an open mind about treatment options. As I said before, I do both naturopathic and conventional therapies. And guess what, it was my naturopath that suggested I go back on antibiotics.

I think your personal story is wonderful and hope that you keep posting as to what is working for YOU. But, I wish you wouldn't refer to drug inserts that most of us have undoubtedly read and cite pier review essays that are one-sided. You would be surprised that, despite our cognitive issues, most of us are pretty smart and saavy about our treatment options and the associated literature.

As pointed out, you are living a contradiction. You care for those who take these drugs yet, you don't believe in them. Look deep and see what you really believe in, work with that, and please share with us what is good and positive about your chosen path. We are open-minded and welcome ANY positive stories about Lyme cures.

I can add only one short item to this because everyone else has done the heavy lifting. A local couple I know went out of state to get their Lyme diagnosed and then decided that antibiotics were too dangerous to use, that they would depend on prayer and vitamins instead. Last I heard hospice was helping with his care and they had both had lyme related surgery. Surgery for the damage is OK but antibiotics is not? Why not? I finally lost touch because I could not stand to see them push this advice on everyone else, when it was obviously not working for them.

There are ALWAYS other options to doing a job that you do not believe in. There is ALWAYS another job, even if it's cleaning toilets (and you seem to have the energy to).

Many of us are, or have been ,desperate for money due to high medical/drug costs. I am one of them. There are a few unethical jobs I can think of that would be high earners, but not good for my conscience. So, I do what I believe is good for me and good for others.

You went on abx for three weeks, you had a herxheimer reaction from that three weeks, ND treatment helped relieved some of the inflammation caused by that herx, and now abx users should head some serious warnings?

I took logics in college before I got sick with this DD and Im not getting what your point is.

I understand how you feel for the 15+ new patients logging onto lymenet everyday, but

1.) the ones that ARE better, arent here.
2.) The ones that ARE better and ARE here may or may *not* have done Naturopathy in conjunction with their abx, maybe not at all!

If no one told you, you're suppossed to herx with lyme treatment. It sounds like that may be what you experienced, which is great, and even more so great that you feel good! GOOD!

But for some more fun facts?
1.) Most, if not all of us here, employ naturopathy in some way, shape or form, to aid in ridding herxs AND toxins
2.) We already know about the risks of our abx. Im sorry, my son is autistic with encephalopathy of his brain. Let me weigh that risk for ten seconds with antibiotics.

Hmm.. antibiotics... encephalapathy. Neurogenic bladder.. antibiotics
Vertigo and migraines... antibiotics

I think I would chose abx with alot of naturopathy, as I have, to get him through and out of this to the other side. Is that ok with you?

One more point, and this is something not very focused on. I have prescription coverage. Thus, I pay nothing for prescriptions. Thus, my lyme treatment and my kidS lyme treatment is paid for.

I DONT HAVE MONEY FOR INTENSIVE ONLY NATUROPATHIC TREATMENTS.

I also dont have it in my heart or intelligence database after knowing that abx DO cure some people, to take either myself or my kids off them fully at this moment.

Sorry.

I will break up this long post by just cliking that ENTER key, TWICE every now and again so I and others can actually read what you have to say.

Many of us really need WHITE SPACES in order to read large texts.

quote:

---

Originally posted by salatheel:
I was initially infected in 98. Was not treated at that point. Was bitten again in Feb. Classic bullseye and all. Did oral doxy for the month of march.

Had no severe symptoms untill 3 weeks into the doxy. Then lympthnodes stated swelling all over as well as my spleen.Started having headaches,blurred vision,stiff neck,backaches,abdominal cramps,arthritic knees and big toes,and strange muscular pains in various locations,as well as tremendous fatigue.

I was frightened by how bad I felt. I started thinking I must have something more than Lyme. I went to the health food store and spoke with a naturopath there about my symptoms. She reccommended red clover stillingia to be taken internally along with applying externally to swollen areas essential oils of rosemary and juniper.

This worked wonders with the swelling. I still had all the other symptoms though. I set up an appointment and went on a full protocol with my ND. Now I am for the most part symptomless. The symptoms seem to return only if I miss too much sleep. Some of the protocol I am on.

Echinacea and goldenseal,multivitamin with antioxidents,probiotics,a mushroom derivative called cordyceps,a chinese herbal complex specifically made for Lymes by Daivid Winston,grape seed extract,daily hot saunas/baths,daily dry brush massage,weekly acupunture,colonics or enaemas,anti-inflammatory diet-i.e. no wheat,dairy,sugar,coffee,alcohol,chocolate,or white flour products.

I also weightlift 5-6 times a week and get 30-45 minutes of cardio 4-5 times a week. I also drink a minimum of 90 ounces of purified water a day.

---

NOW, isn't that better. Thanks.

Rosemary

Acupuncture costs how much?

If money were the only issue here, you're paying WAY more than I could ever afford to to get well..

the issue here is what works for some does not always work for everyone. YOu have the right to choose what works for you, as do others...if there was a magic cure for everyone we wouldn't be here....

so let everyone find what works for them...don't criticize what they DO find , and be extremely humbled that you found somehting that has worked for you. YOu are blessed indeed.

1.) the ones that ARE better, arent here.
2.) The ones that ARE better and ARE here may or may *not* have done Naturopathy in conjunction with their abx, maybe not at all!" I wasn't talking about people at Lymnet. I am talking about people I see at work. I am not denying it was a herxemer reaction either. I just said that was when the smptoms came in. I had milder syptoms from the first exposure which included Babesia.

Antibiotics are BAD
Naturalpath is GOOD

Period.

Please re-read this entire thread and see if you can get something out of it besides your own opinion.

You aren't simply "sharing" your own experience with natural therapy, you are outright trashing what other's have a right to share too; THEIR personal experience's with antibiotic therapy. You pound your position home by publishing articles on "side effects" of antibiotics.

I find it very offensive to work so hard against the ducks on this topic only to come here to have someone try and invalidate my treatment. Natural can work but it doesn't make antibiotics BAD.

THINK TWICE before you make such posts.

Any of us can come up with numerous articles to support or trash viewpoints of either treatment choice or this would not be such a controversial disease. You have made your choice, please let others make theirs on a fair basis.

You find the picture of abx for life depressing? I find it uplifting. I do not have to be SICK for the rest of my life! A year ago I would have said I was better than ever. Now I look back and realize how much further I have come and look forward to another year of abx and getting even better!

I have not visited this site in several months and then it was only a glimpse. Why? My antibiotic/natural therapy has made me healthy beyond my wildest expectations.

As a courtesy to others, please use the space bar and break your long posts into paragraphs. Many here have eye problems.

I've read this entire thread with enormous interest.....but even greater frustration. I agree with some of the things that you said and I am cautious too about long term abx, just like I'm cautious about ANY other treatment, including your nature approach. And I'm also suspicious of the influence of "profit making" on this whole process.

Anyway, let me try to summarize, at a high level, your postings and what I'm concluding from this. I apologize in advance if this offends you; it is NOT meant to!

You were diagnosed with Lyme in 98 or 99. You took 4 weeks of Doxy, experienced herx effect after 3 weeks, but then dropped the abx due to side effects. Then jumped on the nature route with an ND which you've been on since (for the last 5 year I pressume.)

But then you said, ``Now I am for the most part symptomless. The symptoms seem to return only if I miss too much sleep.''

CRASH!!! ( <-- my jaw dropping to the floor) What???

Correct me if I'm wrong here, and I really hope I AM wrong, but if your symptoms can flare up just because you don't get enough sleep that sounds to me like you're not cured by any means.

...and yes, I did notice that you didn't state that you were cured...

Nevertheless, esentially your full nature protocol with you ND is only managing to take the brunt off the symptoms, but is not really taking care of the Lyme.

And now you're trying to convince the whole gang here that abx are bad and nature remedies is good.

What is up?

Again, not meant to offend. Just frustrated and baffled. Please help us understand.

You need BOTH types of "medicine" -- the conventional tx by MDs and to support the body and correct imbalances that MDs never even look for, you need "complementary" treatments. That may include supplements, oxygen, heat, removal of heavy metals and parasites from the body, vibrational remedies or whatever else it takes to get relief.

What we really need are better treatments. What we really need is a government than recognizes this and funds research. They are not doing this.

We also need better education and testing so that people are caught at the early stage and would not need long term treatment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cmichaelo:
salatheel,

But then you said, ``Now I am for the most part symptomless. The symptoms seem to return only if I miss too much sleep.''

CRASH!!! ( <-- my jaw dropping to the floor) What???

Michael

---

I chose this excerpt by Michael because I think he has a really good point . . . taking it a step further I'd say a major lyme symptom was listed: INSOMNIA

After reading all your posts & especially the last 2 posts I think I understand now. I get it.

Your sister who works at a major hospital does not have Lyme Disease. Believe me, it's politically expedient for her to hold such views about LLMDs.

If she had acute Lyme Disease and was unable to pull down big bucks & at risk of losing great insurance coverage & evicted from her lovely home, she'd be CRYING for antibiotics.

But, forget her. I'm concerned for you.

Take care of you.

You don't have to take ABX forever-----you're still functional; that's fantastic.

If I had the money, I'd be taking ultraviolet blood irradiation (UBI) treatments along with ABX because I know the UBI would help me.

I wouldn't care who disagreed with me; if it helped me get back to work-----I'd do it.

This is exactly the kind of response you don't want to hear, but we certainly listened to your views.

Look how many responses you got?

You were heard.

So what if you went on ABX to reduce your initial bacterial load? So what?

The reason I say this.

The reason I'm concerned is------

It's not because you believe in alternative therapies that bothers me.

Anybody breathing on this board would agree you've got to rebuild the body after Lyme does its damage.

(I had neural therapy for pain, years before I knew I had Lyme. Later, my LLMD said that was great for me as it helped to reset my autonomic nervous system.)

I'm more concerned that you, as a functioning individual, would take precious time to scan all those drug monographs.

Think about that.

Please. Your family won't tell you, but we will.

I'm sure that would be a RED FLAG even to your non-Lyme sister.

Only a neuro Lyme patient would do that.

That is a huge red flag. HUGE!

You know in your heart it's true.

You know too much now.

You can't go back & pretend you don't know what Lyme does to the brain.

The way you have approached this argument in & of itself is very typical of neuro Lyme.

That's what concerns me.

I have a broken Lyme brain. Don't let yours get as bad as mine.

My gosh, you're working-------what a privilege.

My own writing rambles on in too much detail.
That's a Lyme brain.

I can pretty much pick out the ones on here who don't have Lyme brains. Their writing is very calm, clear & pithy.

I long to write like that.

I have a college degree. But still I was not smart enough to get the right kind of treatment. A treatment that worked.

I went too long without treatment.

So it's taking me a long time to get better.

I've gotten rid of 13 years of chronic pain, but now it's time for me to find an antibiotic to hit the brain.

I will not get better if I don't fix my brain; it's as pure & simple as that.

Everyone has to make their own choices.

What does it matter if your mother & 4 cousins don't get treatment. What is that to you?

That's their choice not to seek treatment, but you've come on this board for some kind of help.

All these 50+ people have responded to you.

You can't say no one ever warned you things can get very, very bad with untreated Lyme Disease.

Please do not invite self-destruction upon yourself, especially when you know better.

If you decide to go on ABX, you very well know you can get immune function studies performed that tell how well you're progressing.

Do you know your CD57 count?

Go to an immunologist & see what he tells you about the current state of your immune system?

Those are the kind of facts you can't ignore.

This is merely a sounding board, & I've sounded off to shake you up a bit, so you'll get the kind of help that matters.

Sorry, but I just can't envision your sister settling for living with Lyme Disease.

That's what you're doing.

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security because you can still work.

Make that appointment with that 2nd LLMD you mentioned. You don't have to tell anybody.

You need to start making some decisions for yourself.

Just get well.

Best Wishes,
Jan

Also this post has been going on for a long time, really going no where.

>>>So here is my main question<<<

What homeopathic thing can I do or take to make my symptoms diminish????
If it looks safe and I have not done it already, I will try it right away.

Are you looking for a bargain or something that works?

I am sure that the LLMD you mention in your last post is the same one that I see - one which is held in very high esteem by his patients. The fee you mention is for the initial consultation, which lasts 2-3 hours.

Who can judge better someone's reputation than those who are patients? Why do patients travel from all over the world to see him? I have sat and evesdropped on people in his waiting room and EVERYONE chatting had a success story to share when it came to his treatment.

I agree, something needs to be done in the way of research, etc to develop a treatment that will CURE us, and quick. But, as we're not there yet, we just have to go for the tried and tested way (by patients) who say it works.

DLL

One of the most frustrating people I have had to deal with is someone who I helped get diagnosed 2 years ago w/LD. She is still calling me w/lymie questions saying "it's all so confusing!" I am OVER helping someone who refuses to see a LLMD after all else has failed. I do not have the energy to spare.

As RecipeGirl pointed out, YOU have the knowledge, YOU live your life, YOU have to make decisions for YOU based on YOUR information, not your family's.

I took some pretty harsh comments from a family member and his wife about seeing a LLMD. It REALLY HURT, especially because I was trying so hard to be well. My parents still just listen and say nothing which is ok w/me as they are not criticizing and keep any negative thoughts to themselves. My sister THE NURSE, is clueless too. I'm on my own with this but then again, my lymie friends have become my family.

In the support group a friend and I started, it is clear who has taken the natural route and who has sought out a lyme doctor. The LLMD (abx) patients are chattering away a year later w/active brains. The others are slightly improved. I wish I could say the natural route alone did the trick.

What one girl described as her "Ah HA!" momement was when she thought "If I had syphyllis, I'd take antibiotics without question, this is basically the same!" She is now MUCH improved.

Most people spend more money in the long run if they don't see a LLMD first up. My LLMD spent 3 hours w/me on my first visit. I flew from Florida to PA and was VERY sick but I knew I needed a specialist.

I hope this helps clarify some of the things that have been bothering you. I agree, everyone says "GO ON ABX!" and it can be annoying when you are trying to sort it all out. BUT, there is a reason for such an onslaught. They are sharing what worked for them and it does seem to be a huge majority.

I'm sure you feel as if you have something to say, why not want those of us who would normally SOB, because of the large blocks of text. It's not that hard of a thing to do and you did it after the first few sentences of you reply, why not the rest of it?

So, here goes, so more can read it, ok?

quote:

---

Originally posted by salatheel:
First let me apologize for offending so many. I did not mean to invalidate your decisions to be on long term abx. It's just so many here treat it as if it is the only way. Which it is not.

Any newbies are told to go see a LLMD. Anyoneone classified as such will invariably put the patient on long term abx. I called one very highly reccommended LLMD and was told he doesn't accept insurance and the initial consultation is $750 payable at the first visit. I called the second highly reccommended one that did take insurance and made an appointment.

I told my sister who I was going to see and she had a fit. She is in upper management at one of the largest hospitals in our state. I told her all the names that were reccommended and they were not held in high regard from her peers. They were thought of as milking the insurance companies and their patients as well as risking the long term health of their patients.

I'm sorry I am just honestly relating to you all what I was told and expierienced. Now, back to the question of why do I work for a buisness I do not believe in? I didn't feel that way when I started. It is what I have seen that has convinced me.

Also we do do a lot of good. We have all sorts of patients. There are many that I see get better and move on. I am just talking about what I have seen with long term B.B.

I will not use the L word as some people have a fit when you use an S and others have a fit when you don't. What I am saying is I would try as long and as hard as possible to eliminate all possibilities before going on long term abx.

Oh, my insurance covers acupunture and I have spent maybe $250 on supplements. The thing that sold me on my naturopath? The first interview she sat with me for 1 hour and 45 minutes. She did a complete examine including a long interview to find out my emotional state of mind. She is extremely compassionate and caring.

At first it didn't seem like my insurance was going to cover me so she cut the cost of my second visit to only $20 and that included acupuncture. Every session with her now costs me only $15 and lasts over an hour.

---

Thanks,

quote:

---

Originally posted by david1097:
As far as managing symptoms, why not skip the antibiotics and start taking corticol steroids. They will make all the symptoms go away ( I did this and it works). You just have to keep raising the dose (which I did not do). They are a lot cheaper than both antibiotics and herbal stuff.

Also this post has been going on for a long time, really going no where.

>>>So here is my main question<<<

What homeopathic thing can I do or take to make my symptoms diminish????
If it looks safe and I have not done it already, I will try it right away.

---

David, please tell that you are NOT SERIOUS in your statement about taking steriods.

FOR THOSE THAT ARE NEW HERE, STERIODS ARE A BIG, BIG NO-NO VERY BIG!!!!!!

Rosemary

I am concerned for you. From your own story, I think it is very likely that you will have 3rd stage Lyme at some point. Your illness may go underground, be dormant or smoldering, and then flare up in such a way that you will certainly need abx. This could happen this year, or in twenty years.
Keep an open mind for yoruself. Oh- and despite the ideas you get at work, an awful lot of us never go on IV's, but take only orals.

One other thing: many of us have to make decisions about abx for our chilren, who are dependent on us. This is difficult. If you are in fact young, and at some point consider pregnancy, PLEASE look into treatment that will prevent your children from suffering with Lyme. I wish I had known I had it before my pregnancies!

quote:

---

Originally posted by salatheel:

I told my sister who I was going to see and she had a fit. She is in upper management at one of the largest hospitals in our state. I told her all the names that were reccommended and they were not held in high regard from her peers. They were thought of as milking the insurance companies and their patients as well as risking the long term health of their patients.

---

This quote speaks volumes. This is exactly what we're fighting and it's sad that "one of us" takes stock in this bull crap.

I don't think that you're offending anybody, actually. You're more like frustrating everybody because you don't have an open mind and because you think you have the answer to curing Lyme. Or at least, that how you come across here.

I'm not a doctor and I'm a newbie Lymie (in terms of treatment.)

About 3 1/2 months ago I went to my PCP, a non-LLMD and 95% ignorant about Lyme. I had classical neuroLyme symptoms but the Western Blot test came back negative.

My doctor said, "You don't have Lyme. You don't even have the classical Lyme symptoms...joint pain, fever, headache." As for the WB test he said, "It's very accurate." He never even mentioned coinfections, btw.

I also saw a cardiologist who said the same thing about my symptoms.

And saletheel, these guys are MEDICAL DOCTORS. In fact, they are highly qualified and well respected doctors in my area.

Don't think nurses at a hospital know any better. I rest assured, that people in "upper management" know even less.

So your sister told you that those LLMDs you were considering were not held in high regard and that they were milking money.

Oh yes, isn't this classical?

The impact of a few rotten eggs. But hey stop! The other eggs can still be good, no?

Do you also believe that every single US soldier in Iraq is abusing prisoners?

All I can recommend, is to question, Question, QUESTION...everything you hear about Lyme (and many other things, btw.)

When I told my PCP that I was seeing an LLMD, he told me directly, with no hessitation, "If you see him, I can no longer take responsibility for your health. You have to find yourself another PCP."

Trust me, he is sooo gone now.

You'd expect these doctors to keep a "finger on the pulse", wouldn't you? To be up to speed on the current treatments and status of Lyme. I did. But I don't anymore. Doctors have little time, they have preconceived ideas and they are NOT openminded.

It is sooo dangerous to have a closed mind. And that goes for patients too.

Again, ask questions. And don't believe the first answer you get. Treat the answer as "just another piece of the puzzle." Nobody knows everything.

Don't hold doctors in such high regard. They are just people with a graduate degree in a certain field.

If mainstream MDs are ignorant about Lyme, how knowledgable do you think nurses, hospital board members and family members at large are about Lyme???

Lyme is an extraordinaryly complicated disease. And basically only those directly affected by Lyme, and then of course various Lyme specialists, can help you.

But YOU should always be able to rely on YOU to help YOU. YOU dig up the information. YOU digest it. YOU seek answers. QUESTION everything you hear.

But if you're close minded, you can NOT rely on you to help yourself.

I sincerely hope you seriously consider everything that has been said in this thread. Do not obey what's been said here. We are just laymen. But at least question it. Add it to the puzzle.

If you can do that, then you're on you way to recovery.

Make damn sure that YOU are in the drivers seat before asking for directions. And make damn sure that you get reliable directions.

i just thought you might like to know that my LLMD is actually a naturopathic doctor who is also a physician's assistant, so that he has the capacity to prescribe medication.

He has worked for twenty years in a rural helath clinic seeing all the folks with chronic illnesses that the other docs couldn't help. He is a firm believer in the naturopathic route.

However, as he gradually began to realize that some of his sickest patients had Lyme, he has had to turn to anitibiotics for them, even IV. At first he thought that it was only the VERY sick, especially the very neurologically compromised, who had chronic Lyme.

As he has struggled to help more patients over the years, he has come to realize that maybe MOST of his chronic patients have Lyme and co-infections.

While he continues to use naturopathic methods with these people, including me, it is mostly as adjunctive care to the antibiotics. Only with those who truly cannot tolerate antibiotics does he go an exclusively naturopathic route.

There may be some people who can heal from Lyme by an exclusively natural route. there are also those so sensitive to meds that even herbs are too much. Of course there must be help for them.

I've read all the responses to this thread and I recognize several of the people who are post daily how ill they feel while on abx.

Historically, anyone with new ideas has gotten slammed on Lymenet. This is a forum about Lyme, not Lyme treated with antibiotics.

I've been off abx for 3 months now and feeling so good that I cancelled my LLMD appt. Why am I feeling better?..not because of abx (which made me sicker and caused massive Candida), because I'm eliminating Candida and I made a transition to alternative and am holding my own with Ozone Sauna, Hbot, & Rife. All anti-Lyme therapies and none of them come in a pill.

My good friend is having her gallbladder removed and is sicker than ever. Please send her a card telling her how much long term abx can help.

Salatheel's post can be very disturbing to people who have spent time, money, and energy on an arsenal of abx's and still feel ill.

Question everything.

P.S. - Rosemary, I find your act of breaking up peoples' posts more disturbing than reading blocks of text. First of all, I have to go through everything twice. People aren't scrolling by posts hoping that the "Paragraph Police" will come to the rescue, they are going to have to read it twice too. Second, when you do that the whole message comes out in BOLD print which is even more more obnoxious. For every 1 person that thanks you for doing this, there are probably 2 people who don't want to hurt your feelings.

-greg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kaos:
The guy is only trying to hand out information. Either say "thanks" or "no thanks" If a person is happy with their current abx treatment than they would read this post and move on.

P.S. - Rosemary, I find your act of breaking up peoples' posts more disturbing than reading blocks of text. First of all, I have to go through everything twice. People aren't scrolling by posts hoping that the "Paragraph Police" will come to the rescue, they are going to have to read it twice too. Second, when you do that the whole message comes out in BOLD print which is even more more obnoxious. For every 1 person that thanks you for doing this, there are probably 2 people who don't want to hurt your feelings.
[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 20 September 2004).]

---

Kaos,
Take your own advice. If you don't like Rosemary breaking up post just "move on."
She's trying to help and you calling her obnoxious is pretty rude.

The problem with the post is that it sounded like they said don't do abx just cover yourself in oil and you'll be fine. Which is bad info. Just like it would be bad to say only do abx and don't do ``natural'' methods. Blanket statements that say ONLY this or ONLY that are dangerous.

[This message has been edited by Lenny777 (edited 20 September 2004).]

I said the act was obnoxious not the person. Do you understand the difference? Rude or not, truth is always best. "Move on"...why?...this is a great thread with some good responses. Looks like a little a little bit of controversy from the other end of the spectrum is too much for you. Too bad.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kaos:
Lenny,

I said the act was obnoxious not the person.

Do you understand the difference?

Rude or not, truth is always best.

"Move on"...why?...this is a great thread with some good responses.

Looks like a little a little bit of controversy from the other end of the spectrum is too much for you.

Too bad.
[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 20 September 2004).]

---

You can say there's a difference if you want, but don't ones actions make them obnoxious?
Too much for me?

You're the one writing posts about double spacing?

Anyway, I still don't get it.

So, you have to scroll for .3 more seconds.

I don't want to get into a big thing.

I just think she's trying to help and to those with major neurological problems she may be helping.

Oh, I have no problem with their methods.

I'm in the sauna everyday with natural supplements.

Heck, I would shake a chicken foot at the moon if I thought it would help...do you think it would?

If it did work for me I wouldn't tell everyone to flush their abx and go the market and get a chicken foot.

Hey, I don't want any hard feeling here. I was just sticking up for Rosemary.

P.S. sorry for all the double spacing...I couldn't resist.

Everybody has their own opinion.
For me, the natural way did absolutely NOTHING for me, and that includes pretty much every alternative, homeopathic, remedy there is. I did all kinds of IV's, candida killers, peroxide, rife, immune boosters, supplements, heat, vitamin drips, mineral drips, auto immune vaccines, anti-virals, acupuncture, chiropractic, so may things and it all did NOTHING but cost money. Hyperbaric oxygen seems to be the only exception (for me), and it worked great for my Lyme disease because I took it along with heavy doses of antibiotics, done twice per day and kept up for months to years.

The only thing that has made me better and brought me back from a bedridden catatonic state was antibiotics, and years of them. Supportive measures and supplements are wonderful, and having an open mind in this treatment is important. Its one thing to say antibiotics did not work for you, but the ratio of people who improve on them is far greater then those who are untreated. Being open minded is one thing, outwardly critisizing antibiotics, and LLMD's...you may as well go kiss the butts at the corrupt OPMC.

Antibiotics saved my life. My LLMD saved my life. Co-infection treatment is essential. Antibiotic doses must be high enough to carry out their function. If you are against Lyme treatment then go to another support group, we are all sick of hearing you bash our treatment protocols.

------------------
Lyme Disease Help
http://www.wildcondor.com

Wow, what a topic. I have held off from writing anything because i guess im in the middle of the road.

I think ABX are a wonderful thing. They really help people. I just got an IV to treat a dental infection and i am thanking
G-d that it is making me better.

However, ABX are not perfect. Far from it.

Right now my GI track is so messed up from ABX that im worried that i will develop colitis or blood diarreah.

I am also dealing with a candida problem thanks to ABX.

I just started seeing a naturopathic lady and im very excited about "possibly" getting better.

I have had lyme for probably 15 years and never knew it. I had a surgery a year and a half ago which brought out the lyme.

This is a very complex topic and EVERYONE is at a different level.

Im willing to try anything at this point.

I need a break from ABX to heal my gut and deal with the candida.

However, its nice to know that i can always go back on ABX if needed.

I think it is important to be open any treatment including ABX, rife, herbs, oxygen etc.

Thats just my two cents

Jordan

I was not really kidding, the problem here is that the post started as disease treatement then switched to symptom management. There is a big difference.

If you want to get better, then I take the damn antibiotics (unless someone can show me something else that works).

If you want to feel good for a while, take the steroids until you expire, which likely won't be very long.

I guess that the point of my steriod comment was that you don't want to be managing the symtoms of this disease, you want to do something that addresses its proliferation in the body.

I was one of the unlucky ones that had steroids, both Iv and oral. The IV was done intitially to treat what turned out to be a Lyme related symptom in the hope of preventing any acute damage. There was no idea that it was Lyme at that time.

Later, the oral steroids were an attempt to figure out what I had. There where no answers so the test was to try steroids ( as well as other things), to see the result both before, during and after they were stopped.

During the course, all the symptoms abated. All the pain, slurred speech and ataxia cleared up pretty well. After I stopped, the symptoms where much worse than before. This is what caused me to look at infectious dieases. Prior to that it was unknown what it was, and just labeled as a degenerative brain disorder.... see ya later

In the end, if you want symptom management in a palliative mode, just take the steroids. It works a lot better than any natural suppliment that I had ever taken. The pills are pretty cheap too. But note the word palliative, basically after you start, you will be worse than when you started. A lot worse. And you have to keep uping the dose to keep the symptoms at bay. Once you start on that cycle, you are then on a one way ticket to the promised land...

I heard of one local person who had seropositive Lyme (a pharmacist) that did just this to get rid of the post treatment symptoms. They thought that they had the autoimmune post lyme syndrome that has been advertised by several researchers. They lasted 8 months of ever increasing dosage before dying of heart complications from Lyme. So much for the inflamation theory.

How does anyone know for sure that their method of cure is better than someone else's? How do you compare? Shouldn't that decision be between the patient and their physician?