What we really need are better treatments. What we really need is a government than recognizes this and funds research. They are not doing this.

We also need better education and testing so that people are caught at the early stage and would not need long term treatment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cmichaelo:
salatheel,

But then you said, ``Now I am for the most part symptomless. The symptoms seem to return only if I miss too much sleep.''

CRASH!!! ( <-- my jaw dropping to the floor) What???

Michael

---

I chose this excerpt by Michael because I think he has a really good point . . . taking it a step further I'd say a major lyme symptom was listed: INSOMNIA

After reading all your posts & especially the last 2 posts I think I understand now. I get it.

Your sister who works at a major hospital does not have Lyme Disease. Believe me, it's politically expedient for her to hold such views about LLMDs.

If she had acute Lyme Disease and was unable to pull down big bucks & at risk of losing great insurance coverage & evicted from her lovely home, she'd be CRYING for antibiotics.

But, forget her. I'm concerned for you.

Take care of you.

You don't have to take ABX forever-----you're still functional; that's fantastic.

If I had the money, I'd be taking ultraviolet blood irradiation (UBI) treatments along with ABX because I know the UBI would help me.

I wouldn't care who disagreed with me; if it helped me get back to work-----I'd do it.

This is exactly the kind of response you don't want to hear, but we certainly listened to your views.

Look how many responses you got?

You were heard.

So what if you went on ABX to reduce your initial bacterial load? So what?

The reason I say this.

The reason I'm concerned is------

It's not because you believe in alternative therapies that bothers me.

Anybody breathing on this board would agree you've got to rebuild the body after Lyme does its damage.

(I had neural therapy for pain, years before I knew I had Lyme. Later, my LLMD said that was great for me as it helped to reset my autonomic nervous system.)

I'm more concerned that you, as a functioning individual, would take precious time to scan all those drug monographs.

Think about that.

Please. Your family won't tell you, but we will.

I'm sure that would be a RED FLAG even to your non-Lyme sister.

Only a neuro Lyme patient would do that.

That is a huge red flag. HUGE!

You know in your heart it's true.

You know too much now.

You can't go back & pretend you don't know what Lyme does to the brain.

The way you have approached this argument in & of itself is very typical of neuro Lyme.

That's what concerns me.

I have a broken Lyme brain. Don't let yours get as bad as mine.

My gosh, you're working-------what a privilege.

My own writing rambles on in too much detail.
That's a Lyme brain.

I can pretty much pick out the ones on here who don't have Lyme brains. Their writing is very calm, clear & pithy.

I long to write like that.

I have a college degree. But still I was not smart enough to get the right kind of treatment. A treatment that worked.

I went too long without treatment.

So it's taking me a long time to get better.

I've gotten rid of 13 years of chronic pain, but now it's time for me to find an antibiotic to hit the brain.

I will not get better if I don't fix my brain; it's as pure & simple as that.

Everyone has to make their own choices.

What does it matter if your mother & 4 cousins don't get treatment. What is that to you?

That's their choice not to seek treatment, but you've come on this board for some kind of help.

All these 50+ people have responded to you.

You can't say no one ever warned you things can get very, very bad with untreated Lyme Disease.

Please do not invite self-destruction upon yourself, especially when you know better.

If you decide to go on ABX, you very well know you can get immune function studies performed that tell how well you're progressing.

Do you know your CD57 count?

Go to an immunologist & see what he tells you about the current state of your immune system?

Those are the kind of facts you can't ignore.

This is merely a sounding board, & I've sounded off to shake you up a bit, so you'll get the kind of help that matters.

Sorry, but I just can't envision your sister settling for living with Lyme Disease.

That's what you're doing.

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security because you can still work.

Make that appointment with that 2nd LLMD you mentioned. You don't have to tell anybody.

You need to start making some decisions for yourself.

Just get well.

Best Wishes,
Jan

Also this post has been going on for a long time, really going no where.

>>>So here is my main question<<<

What homeopathic thing can I do or take to make my symptoms diminish????
If it looks safe and I have not done it already, I will try it right away.

Are you looking for a bargain or something that works?

I am sure that the LLMD you mention in your last post is the same one that I see - one which is held in very high esteem by his patients. The fee you mention is for the initial consultation, which lasts 2-3 hours.

Who can judge better someone's reputation than those who are patients? Why do patients travel from all over the world to see him? I have sat and evesdropped on people in his waiting room and EVERYONE chatting had a success story to share when it came to his treatment.

I agree, something needs to be done in the way of research, etc to develop a treatment that will CURE us, and quick. But, as we're not there yet, we just have to go for the tried and tested way (by patients) who say it works.

DLL

One of the most frustrating people I have had to deal with is someone who I helped get diagnosed 2 years ago w/LD. She is still calling me w/lymie questions saying "it's all so confusing!" I am OVER helping someone who refuses to see a LLMD after all else has failed. I do not have the energy to spare.

As RecipeGirl pointed out, YOU have the knowledge, YOU live your life, YOU have to make decisions for YOU based on YOUR information, not your family's.

I took some pretty harsh comments from a family member and his wife about seeing a LLMD. It REALLY HURT, especially because I was trying so hard to be well. My parents still just listen and say nothing which is ok w/me as they are not criticizing and keep any negative thoughts to themselves. My sister THE NURSE, is clueless too. I'm on my own with this but then again, my lymie friends have become my family.

In the support group a friend and I started, it is clear who has taken the natural route and who has sought out a lyme doctor. The LLMD (abx) patients are chattering away a year later w/active brains. The others are slightly improved. I wish I could say the natural route alone did the trick.

What one girl described as her "Ah HA!" momement was when she thought "If I had syphyllis, I'd take antibiotics without question, this is basically the same!" She is now MUCH improved.

Most people spend more money in the long run if they don't see a LLMD first up. My LLMD spent 3 hours w/me on my first visit. I flew from Florida to PA and was VERY sick but I knew I needed a specialist.

I hope this helps clarify some of the things that have been bothering you. I agree, everyone says "GO ON ABX!" and it can be annoying when you are trying to sort it all out. BUT, there is a reason for such an onslaught. They are sharing what worked for them and it does seem to be a huge majority.

I'm sure you feel as if you have something to say, why not want those of us who would normally SOB, because of the large blocks of text. It's not that hard of a thing to do and you did it after the first few sentences of you reply, why not the rest of it?

So, here goes, so more can read it, ok?

quote:

---

Originally posted by salatheel:
First let me apologize for offending so many. I did not mean to invalidate your decisions to be on long term abx. It's just so many here treat it as if it is the only way. Which it is not.

Any newbies are told to go see a LLMD. Anyoneone classified as such will invariably put the patient on long term abx. I called one very highly reccommended LLMD and was told he doesn't accept insurance and the initial consultation is $750 payable at the first visit. I called the second highly reccommended one that did take insurance and made an appointment.

I told my sister who I was going to see and she had a fit. She is in upper management at one of the largest hospitals in our state. I told her all the names that were reccommended and they were not held in high regard from her peers. They were thought of as milking the insurance companies and their patients as well as risking the long term health of their patients.

I'm sorry I am just honestly relating to you all what I was told and expierienced. Now, back to the question of why do I work for a buisness I do not believe in? I didn't feel that way when I started. It is what I have seen that has convinced me.

Also we do do a lot of good. We have all sorts of patients. There are many that I see get better and move on. I am just talking about what I have seen with long term B.B.

I will not use the L word as some people have a fit when you use an S and others have a fit when you don't. What I am saying is I would try as long and as hard as possible to eliminate all possibilities before going on long term abx.

Oh, my insurance covers acupunture and I have spent maybe $250 on supplements. The thing that sold me on my naturopath? The first interview she sat with me for 1 hour and 45 minutes. She did a complete examine including a long interview to find out my emotional state of mind. She is extremely compassionate and caring.

At first it didn't seem like my insurance was going to cover me so she cut the cost of my second visit to only $20 and that included acupuncture. Every session with her now costs me only $15 and lasts over an hour.

---

Thanks,

quote:

---

Originally posted by david1097:
As far as managing symptoms, why not skip the antibiotics and start taking corticol steroids. They will make all the symptoms go away ( I did this and it works). You just have to keep raising the dose (which I did not do). They are a lot cheaper than both antibiotics and herbal stuff.

Also this post has been going on for a long time, really going no where.

>>>So here is my main question<<<

What homeopathic thing can I do or take to make my symptoms diminish????
If it looks safe and I have not done it already, I will try it right away.

---

David, please tell that you are NOT SERIOUS in your statement about taking steriods.

FOR THOSE THAT ARE NEW HERE, STERIODS ARE A BIG, BIG NO-NO VERY BIG!!!!!!

Rosemary

I am concerned for you. From your own story, I think it is very likely that you will have 3rd stage Lyme at some point. Your illness may go underground, be dormant or smoldering, and then flare up in such a way that you will certainly need abx. This could happen this year, or in twenty years.
Keep an open mind for yoruself. Oh- and despite the ideas you get at work, an awful lot of us never go on IV's, but take only orals.

One other thing: many of us have to make decisions about abx for our chilren, who are dependent on us. This is difficult. If you are in fact young, and at some point consider pregnancy, PLEASE look into treatment that will prevent your children from suffering with Lyme. I wish I had known I had it before my pregnancies!

quote:

---

Originally posted by salatheel:

I told my sister who I was going to see and she had a fit. She is in upper management at one of the largest hospitals in our state. I told her all the names that were reccommended and they were not held in high regard from her peers. They were thought of as milking the insurance companies and their patients as well as risking the long term health of their patients.

---

This quote speaks volumes. This is exactly what we're fighting and it's sad that "one of us" takes stock in this bull crap.

I don't think that you're offending anybody, actually. You're more like frustrating everybody because you don't have an open mind and because you think you have the answer to curing Lyme. Or at least, that how you come across here.

I'm not a doctor and I'm a newbie Lymie (in terms of treatment.)

About 3 1/2 months ago I went to my PCP, a non-LLMD and 95% ignorant about Lyme. I had classical neuroLyme symptoms but the Western Blot test came back negative.

My doctor said, "You don't have Lyme. You don't even have the classical Lyme symptoms...joint pain, fever, headache." As for the WB test he said, "It's very accurate." He never even mentioned coinfections, btw.

I also saw a cardiologist who said the same thing about my symptoms.

And saletheel, these guys are MEDICAL DOCTORS. In fact, they are highly qualified and well respected doctors in my area.

Don't think nurses at a hospital know any better. I rest assured, that people in "upper management" know even less.

So your sister told you that those LLMDs you were considering were not held in high regard and that they were milking money.

Oh yes, isn't this classical?

The impact of a few rotten eggs. But hey stop! The other eggs can still be good, no?

Do you also believe that every single US soldier in Iraq is abusing prisoners?

All I can recommend, is to question, Question, QUESTION...everything you hear about Lyme (and many other things, btw.)

When I told my PCP that I was seeing an LLMD, he told me directly, with no hessitation, "If you see him, I can no longer take responsibility for your health. You have to find yourself another PCP."

Trust me, he is sooo gone now.

You'd expect these doctors to keep a "finger on the pulse", wouldn't you? To be up to speed on the current treatments and status of Lyme. I did. But I don't anymore. Doctors have little time, they have preconceived ideas and they are NOT openminded.

It is sooo dangerous to have a closed mind. And that goes for patients too.

Again, ask questions. And don't believe the first answer you get. Treat the answer as "just another piece of the puzzle." Nobody knows everything.

Don't hold doctors in such high regard. They are just people with a graduate degree in a certain field.

If mainstream MDs are ignorant about Lyme, how knowledgable do you think nurses, hospital board members and family members at large are about Lyme???

Lyme is an extraordinaryly complicated disease. And basically only those directly affected by Lyme, and then of course various Lyme specialists, can help you.

But YOU should always be able to rely on YOU to help YOU. YOU dig up the information. YOU digest it. YOU seek answers. QUESTION everything you hear.

But if you're close minded, you can NOT rely on you to help yourself.

I sincerely hope you seriously consider everything that has been said in this thread. Do not obey what's been said here. We are just laymen. But at least question it. Add it to the puzzle.

If you can do that, then you're on you way to recovery.

Make damn sure that YOU are in the drivers seat before asking for directions. And make damn sure that you get reliable directions.

i just thought you might like to know that my LLMD is actually a naturopathic doctor who is also a physician's assistant, so that he has the capacity to prescribe medication.

He has worked for twenty years in a rural helath clinic seeing all the folks with chronic illnesses that the other docs couldn't help. He is a firm believer in the naturopathic route.

However, as he gradually began to realize that some of his sickest patients had Lyme, he has had to turn to anitibiotics for them, even IV. At first he thought that it was only the VERY sick, especially the very neurologically compromised, who had chronic Lyme.

As he has struggled to help more patients over the years, he has come to realize that maybe MOST of his chronic patients have Lyme and co-infections.

While he continues to use naturopathic methods with these people, including me, it is mostly as adjunctive care to the antibiotics. Only with those who truly cannot tolerate antibiotics does he go an exclusively naturopathic route.

There may be some people who can heal from Lyme by an exclusively natural route. there are also those so sensitive to meds that even herbs are too much. Of course there must be help for them.

I've read all the responses to this thread and I recognize several of the people who are post daily how ill they feel while on abx.

Historically, anyone with new ideas has gotten slammed on Lymenet. This is a forum about Lyme, not Lyme treated with antibiotics.

I've been off abx for 3 months now and feeling so good that I cancelled my LLMD appt. Why am I feeling better?..not because of abx (which made me sicker and caused massive Candida), because I'm eliminating Candida and I made a transition to alternative and am holding my own with Ozone Sauna, Hbot, & Rife. All anti-Lyme therapies and none of them come in a pill.

My good friend is having her gallbladder removed and is sicker than ever. Please send her a card telling her how much long term abx can help.

Salatheel's post can be very disturbing to people who have spent time, money, and energy on an arsenal of abx's and still feel ill.

Question everything.

P.S. - Rosemary, I find your act of breaking up peoples' posts more disturbing than reading blocks of text. First of all, I have to go through everything twice. People aren't scrolling by posts hoping that the "Paragraph Police" will come to the rescue, they are going to have to read it twice too. Second, when you do that the whole message comes out in BOLD print which is even more more obnoxious. For every 1 person that thanks you for doing this, there are probably 2 people who don't want to hurt your feelings.

-greg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kaos:
The guy is only trying to hand out information. Either say "thanks" or "no thanks" If a person is happy with their current abx treatment than they would read this post and move on.

P.S. - Rosemary, I find your act of breaking up peoples' posts more disturbing than reading blocks of text. First of all, I have to go through everything twice. People aren't scrolling by posts hoping that the "Paragraph Police" will come to the rescue, they are going to have to read it twice too. Second, when you do that the whole message comes out in BOLD print which is even more more obnoxious. For every 1 person that thanks you for doing this, there are probably 2 people who don't want to hurt your feelings.
[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 20 September 2004).]

---

Kaos,
Take your own advice. If you don't like Rosemary breaking up post just "move on."
She's trying to help and you calling her obnoxious is pretty rude.

The problem with the post is that it sounded like they said don't do abx just cover yourself in oil and you'll be fine. Which is bad info. Just like it would be bad to say only do abx and don't do ``natural'' methods. Blanket statements that say ONLY this or ONLY that are dangerous.

[This message has been edited by Lenny777 (edited 20 September 2004).]

I said the act was obnoxious not the person. Do you understand the difference? Rude or not, truth is always best. "Move on"...why?...this is a great thread with some good responses. Looks like a little a little bit of controversy from the other end of the spectrum is too much for you. Too bad.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kaos:
Lenny,

I said the act was obnoxious not the person.

Do you understand the difference?

Rude or not, truth is always best.

"Move on"...why?...this is a great thread with some good responses.

Looks like a little a little bit of controversy from the other end of the spectrum is too much for you.

Too bad.
[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 20 September 2004).]

---

You can say there's a difference if you want, but don't ones actions make them obnoxious?
Too much for me?

You're the one writing posts about double spacing?

Anyway, I still don't get it.

So, you have to scroll for .3 more seconds.

I don't want to get into a big thing.

I just think she's trying to help and to those with major neurological problems she may be helping.

Oh, I have no problem with their methods.

I'm in the sauna everyday with natural supplements.

Heck, I would shake a chicken foot at the moon if I thought it would help...do you think it would?

If it did work for me I wouldn't tell everyone to flush their abx and go the market and get a chicken foot.

Hey, I don't want any hard feeling here. I was just sticking up for Rosemary.

P.S. sorry for all the double spacing...I couldn't resist.

Everybody has their own opinion.
For me, the natural way did absolutely NOTHING for me, and that includes pretty much every alternative, homeopathic, remedy there is. I did all kinds of IV's, candida killers, peroxide, rife, immune boosters, supplements, heat, vitamin drips, mineral drips, auto immune vaccines, anti-virals, acupuncture, chiropractic, so may things and it all did NOTHING but cost money. Hyperbaric oxygen seems to be the only exception (for me), and it worked great for my Lyme disease because I took it along with heavy doses of antibiotics, done twice per day and kept up for months to years.

The only thing that has made me better and brought me back from a bedridden catatonic state was antibiotics, and years of them. Supportive measures and supplements are wonderful, and having an open mind in this treatment is important. Its one thing to say antibiotics did not work for you, but the ratio of people who improve on them is far greater then those who are untreated. Being open minded is one thing, outwardly critisizing antibiotics, and LLMD's...you may as well go kiss the butts at the corrupt OPMC.

Antibiotics saved my life. My LLMD saved my life. Co-infection treatment is essential. Antibiotic doses must be high enough to carry out their function. If you are against Lyme treatment then go to another support group, we are all sick of hearing you bash our treatment protocols.

------------------
Lyme Disease Help
http://www.wildcondor.com

Wow, what a topic. I have held off from writing anything because i guess im in the middle of the road.

I think ABX are a wonderful thing. They really help people. I just got an IV to treat a dental infection and i am thanking
G-d that it is making me better.

However, ABX are not perfect. Far from it.

Right now my GI track is so messed up from ABX that im worried that i will develop colitis or blood diarreah.

I am also dealing with a candida problem thanks to ABX.

I just started seeing a naturopathic lady and im very excited about "possibly" getting better.

I have had lyme for probably 15 years and never knew it. I had a surgery a year and a half ago which brought out the lyme.

This is a very complex topic and EVERYONE is at a different level.

Im willing to try anything at this point.

I need a break from ABX to heal my gut and deal with the candida.

However, its nice to know that i can always go back on ABX if needed.

I think it is important to be open any treatment including ABX, rife, herbs, oxygen etc.

Thats just my two cents

Jordan

I was not really kidding, the problem here is that the post started as disease treatement then switched to symptom management. There is a big difference.

If you want to get better, then I take the damn antibiotics (unless someone can show me something else that works).

If you want to feel good for a while, take the steroids until you expire, which likely won't be very long.

I guess that the point of my steriod comment was that you don't want to be managing the symtoms of this disease, you want to do something that addresses its proliferation in the body.

I was one of the unlucky ones that had steroids, both Iv and oral. The IV was done intitially to treat what turned out to be a Lyme related symptom in the hope of preventing any acute damage. There was no idea that it was Lyme at that time.

Later, the oral steroids were an attempt to figure out what I had. There where no answers so the test was to try steroids ( as well as other things), to see the result both before, during and after they were stopped.

During the course, all the symptoms abated. All the pain, slurred speech and ataxia cleared up pretty well. After I stopped, the symptoms where much worse than before. This is what caused me to look at infectious dieases. Prior to that it was unknown what it was, and just labeled as a degenerative brain disorder.... see ya later

In the end, if you want symptom management in a palliative mode, just take the steroids. It works a lot better than any natural suppliment that I had ever taken. The pills are pretty cheap too. But note the word palliative, basically after you start, you will be worse than when you started. A lot worse. And you have to keep uping the dose to keep the symptoms at bay. Once you start on that cycle, you are then on a one way ticket to the promised land...

I heard of one local person who had seropositive Lyme (a pharmacist) that did just this to get rid of the post treatment symptoms. They thought that they had the autoimmune post lyme syndrome that has been advertised by several researchers. They lasted 8 months of ever increasing dosage before dying of heart complications from Lyme. So much for the inflamation theory.

How does anyone know for sure that their method of cure is better than someone else's? How do you compare? Shouldn't that decision be between the patient and their physician?

quote:

---

Originally posted by rosesisland2000:
I would really like to read through your replys, as I'm sure others would, also. Is it really all that hard to hit the Enter key, TWICE every now and again so that more can read your post.

---

PLEASE!!!!!!!!! I can't read 4 pages of stuff with no space between the lines. And I know Rosemary and I are not the only ones. thanks!

Look salatheel, there have been several well-reasoned responses to your original posts. And this has all come up before. So, if this is all you have to say... why not just go away? Or, better yet, stick around - quietly at first - and learn from people.

Dan
P.S.:
One of the best things that you can learn from people here or anywhere is: you'll learn more if you don't start out insisting that you've got the answer.

[This message has been edited by danq (edited 22 September 2004).]

Posts: 2420 | From Davis, California | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

I don't disagree with your answer or anyone else's, I just think we need to be flexible for ourselves and understand that other people may have different answers that work for their situation.

My last stepmother is a doctor of herbology.

She doesn't generally believe that "Modern" medicine is the answer to everything.

As I was growing up she would never send us to the doctor when we were sick without first seeing if she could heal us with herbs.

Even if we had something that needed antibiotics, she would give us garlic . . . it's a natural antibiotic.

Generally she could.

However, even with as much knowledge as she has about herbs (maybe because of the knowledge she has of herbs), she has always stood by what my LLMD says about long term antibiotics.

All she does is suggest supplements the best supplements to go along with the treatment.

She knows that there are times a person needs "Modern" medicine, and this disease is one of them.

Considering this woman has spent the last 12 years of my life trying to make me inhale "deer tongue" or some such root or herb over a steaming pot of water when I have a sinus infection . . .

I tend to trust her instinct when she tells me not to fight the doctor on the antibiotics.

Just my experience and humble opinion.

PS. (I lied . . . two comments ) This is what they're trying to show you about SPACING OUT YOUR POSTS!

(Don't feel too bad . . . I had to be told to do it once too. I didn't realize it was a problem my first few posts. But it really is easier to read this way.)

I have been a lyme leader for many years. I have worked with well over the number of lyme patients that you have even met probably (not that that makes me any better than anyone else...I am getting to a point here).

I have over 100 patients who contacted me who "treated" lyme, at the early stages with natural methods. The bullseye went away, the fever went away. Wow they were happy!

That gets us into did they treat (as rosemary pointed out) a symptom that WOULD go away anyway?

I would imagine so, since those people returned to me within a year, with late stage lyme disease.

I do believe under the right cicumstance that one may fight lyme naturally, but just as anything else, there is no foolproof method for treating lyme.

I have seen far too many people try naturopaths as the only course, only to end up fully debilitated.

I am going to come out and directly oppose your comment...

Further, I have seen many people, including 5 in my own family, that have returned to normalcy (in fact three off antibiotics now for over a year) with long term antibiotics AND natural immune support for late stage lyme disease.

My daughter was ill for 8 yrs. We did not know what was wrong. The doctors had no answers. Naturopathy was the only resort we had. She progressed from a happy bouncing 6 yr old, to a bedridden 12 yr old in congestive heart failure with no less than 15 daily seizures and oxygen supplementation. This was on naturals alone. I used to think "I dont understand this, my nephew eats DQ, McDonalds, and is fat, yet my daughter has more health problems and we eat well and see the naturopath!

Three years of antibiotics (1.5 of the IV) she has bounced to a healthy active happy 17 yr old. Her immune complex has increased from 4-18 to consistently over 80 since her IV Therapy, so it shows that antibiotics dont "kill the immune system" as some doctors told me would happen.

So, my comment

DO BOTH...Im not sure one can look at this as an individual cure. Im sure that one naturopath will work for one, and not another. Im sure that one antibiotic will work for one and not another. This is a complex illness and requires a complex, but methodical treatment plan to beat it.

The people that say antibiotics are the one and only way to get better and that people can try whatever that want but make sure you are on antibiotics are just as bad and close minded as the ducks who say there is no chronic Lyme or that Lyme is a easy simple illness to cure. I am going to use my family as a reference as I don't think it my place to talk about any other individual results.

My wife has Lyme she is seeing tremendous on Transfer Factor with natural immune support. I would not consider putting her on antibiotics at this point in time. She is seeing great improvement and is clearly getting healthier week by week.

My sister in law has Lyme she is moving up the antibiotic scale (under Dr. C of MO's care) she has done all other orals she can do and is getting set to have a picc line put in. She still struggles at times but is slowly improving and making headway. With a few more modalities put in to her treatment we think we have it beat.

I have watched my Father in law and mother in law both steadily get worse and worse with antibiotics (still under Dr. C's care). They have both recently found a great deal of help with a particular type of rife machine mixed with a mineral supplement program and ozone therapy. While the jury is still very much out at this point they both feel better then that have in over a year and a half, and have seen leaps and bounds of improvement over antibiotics.

That is three different treatments for three different people all in the same family. Antibiotics are the answer for one and it was not the answer for two others with my wife having never done antibiotic treatment. They still see Dr. C and still use him has a primary LLMD.

It goes to show that just because something is working for you please don't discourage other people from sharing what has worked for them and people sharing what has worked for them (be it antibiotics or rife or just naturopathic medicine) don't try telling people it's the only way and that others are less effective or dangerous.

This is a Lyme forum and while misinformation should not be allowed to just spread this forum is not the antibiotic forum and other methods of treatment should be respected even if you disagree. People should feel free to post why they disagree with a treatment method, but please do it respectfully.

quote:

---

Originally posted by salatheel:
When I started this thread the point I was trying to make was that there are alternatives in treating Lyme disease. Antibiotics are one way but not the only way.

From my personal expierience I have seen more progress made with alternative treatments. The first person to have lyme in my family was a female cousin. Then her husband. Then two young boy cousins. Then my mother. Then me, and I have recently found out a young female cousin and her brother are probable.

None of us have gone on long term antibiotics and all are doing pretty well. That is my expirience with Lyme in my family. Others may have had different expiriences.

What I was pointing out was simply that there is more than one way to treat Lyme. Many, many Drs. would not reccommend, and would actually disapprove of the longterm use of antibiotics in treating this disease.

Ask yourself this question. What do these Drs. have to gain from advising their patients not to go on long term antibiotics? Are their concerns about the long term effects legitamate? Are you putting yourself at risk by going on long term antibiotics?

If there are legitamate risks and concerns, have you exhausted every alternative possibility? Have you? Really? If you have, then that may be your only option. But if you haven't, then maybe you should look at the alternatives.

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One thing I've never understood is the way people assume "antibiotics" and "natural" substances are somehow two entirely different things.

The cordyceps Salatheel takes is a fungus that grows on the backs of mummifying Nepalese caterpillar corpses.

The penicillin some other folks take is a fungus that grows on maize (corn).

Natural cordyceps production is not regulated and has a high incidence of lead contamination, due to the practice of rural gatherers inserting lead wire into the bodies of the insects, to make them heavier for more pay.

The only way to determine (for instance) the lead content of your cordyceps is to purchase it from a manufacturer who can certify their product as specially (the manufacturers in fact use the term "artificially") cultivated for medicinal purposes, and therefore lead-free. (see link above)

And who does that certification? Yep, the FDA ... the same body that regulates penicillin and all other antibiotics.

Is the FDA a perfect system? HECK no. But me? Quite honestly, if I'm going to be eating mold, I'd far rather ingest mold that has been purifed, regulated and exhaustively researched as to its side effects. (Shucks, I prefer something that grew on corn over something that grew on dead bugs anyways.)

Why does Salatheel's cordyceps NOT contain a brochure listing its side-effects like the prescription antibiotic ones she quoted for shock effect? Not because there aren't any - but because long-term and side-effect studies have not (yet) been done.

I have absolutely no problem with naturopathic remedies - I just wish more folks would stop miscategorizing antibiotics as "unnatural" - ! It's (forgive the pun) an artificial distinction .

*off my soapbox now.*

peanut

[This message has been edited by circuspeanut (edited 22 September 2004).]

[This message has been edited by circuspeanut (edited 22 September 2004).]

Cordyceps is primarily collected wild, as the grown cordyceps is of lower quality, but the wild cordyceps is usually very expensive and costs up to $1000 for 100 grams. Wild cordyceps from Tibet is supposed to be the best in the world.

Scientific research has proven that wild cordyceps is richer in certain components, and also that the proportions of its ingredients are different from the cultivated herb, and this might make some differences in the activity. Nevertheless, cultivated Cordyceps is still a premium and valuable tonic herb.

Cordyceps became famous because of its powerful aphrodisiac effects. Recent studies performed at Beijing Medical University of China and in Japan have shown a 64% success rate among men suffering from impotence, vs. 24% in the placebo group.

In the ancient China, cordyceps was highly recommended as one of the most effective medicines for all illness. Due to its anti-aging and cure-all properties, it can be compared to ginseng, reishi and deer velvet. In general, cordyceps is a tonic that help the body build strength, improve the organic functioning, strengthen the immune system and bring longevity.

Much of what is known about Cordyceps sinensis we owe to the research of Dr. Georges Halpern, a physician and professor emeritus with the University of Hong Kong, and author of several books about Cordyceps.

Research suggests that Cordyceps may improve the BIO ENERGY status of animals and probably in humans. This would happen because Cordyceps improves the internal balance mechanism, thus making the utilization of OXYGEN more efficient. These properties may account for the overall physical enhancement, the added endurance, and the anti-fatigue effects which are seen in humans using the Cordyceps supplement.

1. Cordyceps Improves the Respiratory Function
Several scientific studies have demonstrated the benefits of Cordyceps sinensis in alleviating the symptoms of several respiratory illnesses including chronic bronchitis and asthma (Reference 2, Chapter ``Effects on the Respiratory System'', pages 429-432). In a double blind, placebo controlled study with 30 elderly volunteers Cordyceps significantly improved the maximum amount of oxygen these people were able to assimilate (Reference 4).

2..Cordyceps increases cellular Oxygen Absorption by up to 40%
(Lou Y, Liao X, Lu Y. Cardiovascular pharmacological studies of ethanol extracts of Cordyceps mycelia and Cordyceps fermentation solution. Chinese Traditional and Herbal Drugs 1986;17(5):17-21,209-213) Chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases improvement of 40% after Cordyceps supplement. (Wang WQ. J. Administration Traditional Chinese Med 1995;5 (supp :24)

3. Cordyceps Improves the Functioning of the Heart
Numerous studies have demonstrated the benefits of Cordyceps sinensis on heart rhythm disturbances, such as cardiac arrhythmias and chronic heart failure (Reference 2, Chapter ``Effects on the Cardiovascular System'', pages 436 - 441).

An even more vigorous study was conducted using ``in vivo'' mouse model induced acute Pulmonary Edema (Pneumonia) which causes systemic lack of oxygen, acidic body, and death. Research results show that animals taking Cordyceps had a significantly greater survival rate of 20% mortality vs. 80% mortality in 30 minutes. This is a startling 400% improvement. (From Wan F, Zhang S. Clinical observations of fermented Cordyceps sinensis (Cs-4) in antitussive, expectorant, and antathematic effects. Collection on the Basic Medicinal and Clinical Studies of Submerged Culture Cordyceps sinensis. Beijing, Nanchang, China:Jiangxi TCM/IMM, 1985:35-39)

4. Cordyceps Helps Maintain Cholesterol
Four excellent studies have demonstrated that Cordyceps sinensis helps to lower total cholesterol by 10 to 21% and triglycerides by 9 to 26%. At the same time it helps to increase HDL-cholesterol (``good cholesterol'') by 27 to 30% (Reference 1, Chapter ``Effects on blood lipid metabolism and arteriosclerosis'', pages 299 - 301).

Blood Cells - Improves Blood Cell Viability & Function.

Genetic - Promotes DNA Repair

Liver Protection - Improves Liver Functions, helps with Hepatitis and Cirrhosis Sub chronic and chronic hepatitis on related liver diseases are more prevalent than most people think. Liver is the living filter of the human body, cleaning the blood and all other fluids of impurities. There is no way for you to survive, much less feel healthy, without a functioning liver.

Research clinical trials on 33 patients with Hepatitis ``B'' and on another 8 patients with cirrhosis taking Cordyceps supplement showed 71.9% improvement on ``Thymol Turbidity Test'' and 78.6% improvement in'' SGPT Test'' both of these are enzyme test showing improving functions of the liver. (Zhou LT, Yang YZ, Xu YM, Zhu QY, Zhu YR, Ge XY, Gao JD. Short term curative effect of cultured Cordyceps sinensis (Berk.) Sacc. Mycelia in chronic hepatitis B. China J Chinese Materia Medica 1990;15(1):53-55)

5. Chronic kidney diseases improvement
(3) Chronic kidney diseases improvement of 51% after only one month with Cordyceps supplement.(Jiang JC, Gao YF. J Administration Traditional Chinese Med 1995;5(suppl):23-24)

6. Cordyceps Reduces Tumor Size in Cancer Patients
Several clinical studies have been conducted in China and Japan with cancer patients (References 1 and 2). The studies were done with CSE (Cordyceps sinensis mycelium) using a therapeutic dose of 6 grams per day (= 4 capsules twice daily). In one study with 50 lung cancer patients administered CSE in conjunction with chemotherapy, tumors reduced in size in 46% of patients. A study in cancer patients with various types of tumors found CSE (6 g/day for over 2 months) improved subjective symptoms in the majority of patients. White blood cell counts were maintained and tumor size was significantly reduced in about half of the patients. Researchers in Japan reported that CSE enhances the general reactivity of the immune system in individuals with cancer. To discover this, they subcutaneously injected mice with cancerous (lymphoma) cells and then orally administered CSE. This lead to a reduction of tumor size and prolongation of the host survival time. CSE also improved the antibody responses.

7. Immune System
Increases NK cell activity, makes more MUSCLE - Increases Power, builds better/younger cells.

Recharge the Protective Army of NK cells - Your body's ability to fight infections and tumors depends on the availability of Natural Killer (NK) Cells. These are essential first lines of defense for our body's protection mechanisms commonly known as the Immune System.

Several scientific studies of Cordyceps have especially focused on Natural Killer (NK) cells and Cordyceps effect on them and cancer formation. One such in-vitro study demonstrated Cordyceps adding significant enhancement of NK cell activity in normal individuals as well as leukemia stricken individuals. (Liu C, Lu S, Ji MR, Xie Y. effects of Cordyceps sinensis on in-vitro natural killer cells.

Chinese J Integrated Traditional Western Med (Chung-Kuo Chung His I Chieh Ho Tsa Chih) 1992;12(5):267-269) showed that natural Cordyceps enhanced the NK cell activity of normal patients by 74% and increased the NK activity of leukemia patients by 400% and similar improvements of NK cell activities was found in big melanoma cancer (Xu RH, Peng XE, Chen GZ, Chen GL. Effects of Cordyceps sinensis on natural killer activity and colony formation of B16 melanoma. Chinese Med J 1992;105(2):97-101)

8. Improvements in the Immune System
The improvements in the Immune System were so impressive that Dr. Zhu at the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 1998 stated: ``Because of the above profound influence on immune functions, natural Cordyceps products have been used in many clinical conditions in patients with altered immune functions.''

9. Anti-aging
The First Anti-Aging Supplement Known to Mankind
It's An Anti-Aging Fighter with clinical research proof in controlled studies which showed that elderly patients suffering from fatigue and some senility related symptoms reported. (1) Improvements in the reduction of fatigue 92%, of feeling cold 89%, in dizziness 83%, after taking Cordyceps for 30 days. Patients with respiratory/breathing problems felt physically stronger and some were able to jog for 600 ft. (Cao A, Wen Y. J Applied Traditional Chinese Med 1993;1:32-33)

10. Cordyceps Protects against Free Radical Damage
Several studies have shown that Cordyceps sinensis protects against the damages caused by free radicals, and as such has powerful antioxidant properties (Reference 1, Chapter ``�ntisenescence and Oxygen-Free Radical Scavenging Activity'')

11. Cordyceps Reduces Fatigue
Several studies with animals have demonstrated that Cordyceps sinensis increases the cellular energy production and oxygen supply. A double blind, placebo controlled investigation showed a marked reduction in fatigue in elderly patients when they were given three grams of Cordyceps daily. In another study, Cordyceps sinensis improved shortness of breath and reduced fatigue in patients suffering from chronic heart failure (Reference 1, Chapter ``Improvement of physical performance and quality of life'', pages 293 - 295).

12. Cordyceps Helps Discomforts from Tired Legs
Several studies have shown that Cordyceps sinensis improves the flow of blood in the body by relaxing the smooth muscles of the blood vessels allowing them to expand. Cordyceps also improves the functioning of the heart and lungs (see above). Cordyceps therefore prevents or reduces the contraction of blood vessels which interferes with the flow of blood vessels in the legs, the main cause of tired legs (Reference 2, Chapter ``Effect on the Cardiovascular System'', pages 436 - 441).

13. Endurance & Stamina
Reduces muscle Soreness, Enhances Recovery, Promotes Better Oxygen efficiency,

14. Fitness
Increases ATP Synthesis, Promotes Faster Energy Recovery, Reduces Fatigue, Improves Physical Function, Provides More Stamina.

15. Cordyceps Improves Stamina and Athletic Performance
Several studies with animals have shown that Cordyceps sinensis increases the cellular energy production and oxygen uptake ( Reference 1, Chapter ``Improvement of physical performance and quality of life'', pages 293 - 295). A study with mice demonstrated their improved swimming capabilities after six weeks of Cordyceps supplementation compared with a control group (Reference 3, page 260).

16. Cordyceps radically increases cellular energy
Cellular energy, which is also known scientifically as the ATP/IP ratio. Cordyceps has been clinically proven to increase cellular Bio-Energy by as much as 55% (Reported XU C.F et al in ZHU J-S, Halpern GM, Jones K. The Scientific rediscovery of a precious ancient Chinese herbal regimen: Cordyceps sinensis: Part I. J Alt Comp Med 1998;4(3):289-303.)

17. Cordyceps Combats Sexual Dysfunction
Three separate Chinese double blind and placebo-controlled studies with over 200 men with ``reduced libido and other sexual problems'' showed remarkably similar results. On average, 64% of the Cordyceps-users reported significant improvement at the conclusion of the experimental period compared with 24% of the placebo group. In another double blind, placebo controlled study conducted with 21 elderly women with similar complaints, 90% reported improvements of their condition following the use of Cordyceps, compared with none in the control group (Reference 1).

18. Hormones - Adrenal Thymus, Mitochondrial energy.
Dramatic Natural Improvements are seen in endocrine hormone levels, in fertility, and in Sexual Libido for men and women.

19. Sexual Function
Improves Libido and Quality of Life in Men & Women, Fights infertility, Increases Sperm Count, Increases Sperm Survival.

(1) Research on animal studies shows cordyceps increases natural sex hormones(Wan F, Guo Y, Deng X. Chinese Traditional Patented Med 1988;9:29-31)

(2) Prevention and improvement of adrenal glands and thymus hormones, and infertile sperm count improve by 300% after cordyceps supplement.(Huang Y, Lu J, Zhu B, Wen Q, Jia F, Zeng S, Chen T, Li Y, Xheng G, Yi Z.. Zhongchengyao Yanjiu 1987;(10):24-25)

(3) Human clinical studies involving both men and women of 189 patients with decreased libido and desire showed improvement of symptoms and desire of 66% (Wan F, Guo Y, Deng X. Chinese Traditional Patented Med 1988;9:29-31) and

(4) Another double blind study by the Institute of Materia Medica in Beijing, China showed a woman improvement of libido and desire at 86%. (JIA-SHI ZHU, M.D., Ph.D. The Journal of Alternative & Complementary Medicine, Vol.4, Number 3, 1998, pp.289-303)

(5) The most dramatic physical proof came from Fertility Study (Guo YZ. J Modern Diagnostics Therapeutics 1986;(1):60-65) involving a clinical research of 22 males showed that cordyceps supplement increased clear evidence of 33% increase in sperm count, decreased 29% incidence of sperm malformations, and a 79% increase in survival rate after 8 weeks of cordyceps supplement.

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Acknowledgement
Much of what is known about Cordyceps sinensis we owe to the research of Dr. Georges Halpern, a physician and professor emeritus with the University of Hong Kong, and author of several books about Cordyceps. His interest and commitment have resulted in making available to the Western world the many research studies conducted by Chinese scientists published in various Chinese scientific journals. These investigations with Cordyceps sinensis have been summarized in the following scientific articles:

1. Zhu, J.S., Halpern, G.M., and Jones, K. (1998): The Scientific Rediscovery of an Ancient Chinese Herbal Medicine: Cordyceps sinensis. Part I. Journal of Alternative and complementary Medicine 4(3), pp 289-303.

2. Zhu, J.S., Halpern, G.M., and Jones, K. (1998): The Scientific Rediscovery of a Precious Ancient Chinese Herbal Regimen: Cordyceps sinensis. Part II. Journal of Alternative and complementary Medicine 4(4), pp 429-457.

3. Mizuno T. (1999): Medicinal effects and utilization of Cordyceps (Fr.) Link (Ascomycetes) and Isaria Fr. (Mitosporic Fungi) Chinese Caterpillar Fungi, ``Tochukaso'' (Review). International Journal of Medicinal Mushrooms 1 (3), pp 251-261.

4. Xiao Y., Huang X.Z., Chen G.,Wang M.B., Zhu J.S., Cooper C.B.: Increased Aerobic Capacity in Healthy Elderly Humans given fermented Cordyceps Cs-4: a Placebo controlled Trial. Ann. Meeting American College of Sports Medicine, Seattle, WA, June 3-5, 1999.

I don't doubt that cordyceps might do all those fabulous things. But that wasn't my point ...

I'm glad it works for your Lyme. Just be darned careful what's in the jar you buy.

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At least 1,500 years ago, Tibetan herders observed that yaks would eat Cordyceps and then frolic with great energy and ``passion.'' This encouraged the herders to experience the power of Cordyceps, which has led to it use by hundreds of millions of people over the ages. In 1993, the Chinese National Track and Field Team attributed their success in breaking three World Records in part to their use of Cordyceps. MycoMedicinal� Cordyceps has been clinically shown to increase Natural Killer (NK) Cell activity by up to 230%. For maximum benefit take with New Chapter's Gingerforce� Supercritical Therapy formulation to increase bioavailability and activity.

MycoMedicinals� from Paul Stamets and New Chapter� deliver the profoundly healing traditional mushrooms in their certified organic mycelial form, easiest to digest and richest in potent myconutrients. MycoMedicinals� are the supreme expression of mushrooms' protective and healing intelligence and are Potency Assured� for Arabinoxylanes, Glycoproteins, Ergosterols, and Beta Glucans.

Just as a linguistic aside, since this thread is all over the place anyways - is it technically possible to call something that grows on dead bodies "vegetarian"?

A conundrum for the marketers.

*********

I think you missed Peanut's point. Cordyceps was used as an example to reinforce the fact that many, if not most, alopathic medicines are derived from natural (plant) sources.

What makes abx one of the treatments of choice is that extensive reaearch and repackaging of the original source of the meds are done by Drug companies who have worked hard to get FDA approval and to get patents. This makes the Rx more available to us, albeit $$$.

Yes, much of what we ingest or shoot or drip has been altered from its original state and has additives to make the shelf life more appealing but, the bottom line is that much of our abx started out as a spore or a flower or even horse urine (yuck). These modified potions are strong and have side effects. I can tell you though that my worst herxes were on the pure plant forms of some of the natural abx I took. I literally halucinated on one such tincture and thought I had died and was reborn at a Black Sabath concert in the 70s.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. But, you do need to be more open minded and actually read what others are saying. This is a good thread.

In doing so, they acknowledged a major oversight: Under the country's increasingly aggressive policy of childhood immunizations, infants were being repeatedly exposed to mercury in cumulative doses far above Environmental Protection Agency guidelines. Since then, vaccine producers have virtually eliminated thimerosal from regularly scheduled childhood vaccines.

quote:

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Originally posted by salatheel:
If you place all your faith in the FDA, well, it may not be in your best long term interests.

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I agree. You simply haven't offered any convincing argument as to why it would be preferable to place my faith anywhere else, either.

Also, please give those of us who are here and on abx some credit. We wouldn't even be on this forum if we were not researching and educating ourselves about this disease and our health. Your viewpoint is well taken and respected. Please respect other viewpoints. You have started a good discourse on a topic that concerns us all.