oxygenbabe
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posted
Usually I'm the one asking for science etc.
But right now it's so theoretical, that I think a lot of the debates on the various threads, although meant well, are kind of useless.
What stands out for me is that Gigi got a bullseye where bit and pulling in her face where she had Bells Palsy. Esp. a bullseye where she originally got the tickbite. Everybody should pay more attention to that. I mean, I suppose you could generate a fake bullseye (the way some folks generate fake stigmata) because your mind believed so much, but in general what I think is, hey that is really weird and interesting, what exactly is that about?
She mentions another M.D. who treated their lyme with this instrument. We need to know more about that person, male or female, whether acute lyme, how bad a case, and how long treated.
We need to learn more about the patients. Any patient who will tell Gigi their story (ie German) and she can relate it here, or any patient we can talk to.
If I were approaching this as an investigative journalist, I might take a look at the possible scientific mechanism but frankly I don't think it's entirely known and debating it is not useful now. I know Niek, Sparkle, Marnie are sincere, in debating pros and cons, but where does that get us? We don't know enough about the mechanism for the debates to be more than opinions in the end.
We never got an answer--Bob didn't I don't think--from the company as to why they picked these frequencies. That is key to knowing whether this instrument is unique. That should be pursued vigorously, that information, relentlessly even, until we have an answer. That would tell us if this machine is different.
The more patient stories we get, knowing what else they did (treatments), how long they were sick, and how long it took them to get better, the better.
We need to know more about the overall protocol of Dr. W as he gave Gigi an ozone blood treatment, what else does he combine and why?
Dave 6002 feels better, Sparkles has less pain and considers her Lightworks adjunctive, very useful, not curative.
Dave, why/how do you feel better, what are your self-treatments? Sparkle has explained her self-treatments and what feels better.
Right now what we have for data falls in the realm of evidence-based-medicine.
Trying to justify the therapy or look at theory will take us to a dead end right now. We want to know if this therapy is helpful, sometimes curative. Nobody's talking about the nosodes either and how important they might be energetically.
I mean to try my Lightworks on my knee later today (finally)!
If it turns out the Bionic 880 is unique (which it may well be), we need to get a smart talented lyme literate practitioner to train on one. We need someone in U.S. who becomes a protege of Dr. W. Rather than hastily annointing someone, we need the right person. A group of 25 lymies sharing a machine is not likely to work, imo. People used to want to share hyperbaric chambers to cut the cost. Somehow it never worked out because in the end, it isn't feasible. I don't think enough lymies interested in LED's live close enough to each other to make it feasible. However, one practitioner might be the way. And frankly, I would personally swallow the expense of one of these if I had enough data that it could get me well. After all, I have a hyperbaric chamber in my home that has been of incalculable benefit to me in the last five years.
Now I am going back to sleep but the above is what I think needs to be focussed on. Probably in September I can focus on it myself after some deadlines.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by oxygenbabe: Usually I'm the one asking for science etc. Trying to justify the therapy or look at theory will take us to a dead end right now. We want to know if this therapy is helpful, sometimes curative. Nobody's talking about the nosodes either and how important they might be energetically.
For me (and some others, I guess) the point is that the device is sold with a lot of very questionable 'science' backing it. I'm not saying it doesn't work and again, in general I think these devices can offer some relief (agree with most that sparkle is saying about that).
Don't get me wrong: I have nothing against people trying these devices and reporting about it. I don't exclude the possibility that they have found something 'magical' that would warrant future investigation (it might prove a boon for science in that case as well). Science and medicine keep changing, and this is in a field where a lot is happening. But again, with the unfounded 'science' behind it I'm sceptical.
You are right that the only way to know if it is helpfull is to try it. But my guess from episodes with somewhat similar equipment is this: after the initial excitement calms down, a few people will show a huge improvement, many will show some improvement and some will not improve at all. Also the result will not be as spectacular as with patients treated by Dr.W personally.
Maybe the real benefit of the treatment is the additional things that Dr. W. uses for individual patients, as he does not only use this device but additional 'stuff'. Bioresonance supporters often claim that - although it is a 'scientific/medical' instrument they are using, the individual practitioner makes all the difference; so if the treatment doesn't work don't blame the device, blame the practitioner instead and find another one. It is scientifically extremely difficult to 'test' such statements ...
Posts: 29 | From Netherlands | Registered: Jul 2008
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oxygenbabe
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posted
A skeptical voice (yours) has its uses. OTOH I think right now time would be better spent 1) finding out why they use those frequencies--a key question still unanswered 2) getting firsthand reports from some of the folks Gigi spoke with esp an MD who used it to treat their borrelia etc.
Otherwise as you say, hunches and guesses-------
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lymie_in_md
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OB, You made some excellent points. I think the rash your talking about on GiGi's arm that re-emerged was due to just using the machine. Nothing that Dr. W. had done. We should think even more closely at that ramification. That observation might entirely get lost in a double blind study. It means the device does in fact elicit a very strong immune reaction.
As far as a group of 25, its about cost and saving on markup that would occur in treatment. Why does the practioner have to own the device? By the way, I have been talking to practioners to handle the energetic side of testing. One of the practioners is an MD with great alternative skills.
What's most important is getting the device here. Getting a practioner and getting results from 25 people.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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oxygenbabe
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Hi Bob, it's just that, for instance, I live a good 3 or 4 hour drive from Maryland. The cost of the train is expensive, and the exhaustion of a roundtrip in one day when you have lyme, not easy. To stay in a hotel to make it easier is even more expensive. You have to go for treatments fairly frequently. So for me to contribute even $500 to the machine, doesn't make sense. The cost in time and money to get there is prohibitive.
I'd rather wait and see how others do, help gather evidence and if I'm convinced, buy one myself and learn how to use it or enlist a smart practitioner to help me. Or, if a practitioner in Boston or Maryland or Washington gets one, take my computer and work, sublet an inexpensive studio for a month where I can cook my own healthy food, and see the practitioner regularly. Also, I don't want to spend $ to be a guinea pig. I'd want a trained practitioner. Again, I don't think its *easy* to learn on your own. But there are practitioners around who are very interested in this stuff and already understand energetic medicine.
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GiGi
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posted
I will not add to this thread even though I have comments to make. I will continue to add to my original one "We returned....."to keep all in one place.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:Originally posted by lymie_in_md: I think the rash your talking about on GiGi's arm that re-emerged was due to just using the machine. Nothing that Dr. W. had done. We should think even more closely at that ramification. That observation might entirely get lost in a double blind study. It means the device does in fact elicit a very strong immune reaction.
sure, that is an interesting point and if it occurs more often (with some other patients) would warrant further investigation (I don't think it would get lost in a GOOD double blind study).
Our knowledge about EM's is still limited, we know they can reappear spontaneously, sometimes without clear symptoms of Lyme disease. Some medics (was it from John Hopkins?) suggest that you can have an EM without having a Borrelia infection; sounds unlikely to me, but it shows how much confusion there is about the subject.
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GiGi
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One has Lyme and cancer - one has Lyme and leaky gut - the next has Lyme and ten root canals and dental infections, and one is living in a destructive environment ---------- how many double blind studies do you want to do???? Just asking in passing.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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oxygenbabe
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Niek, there may be at least a few strains of borrelia, that may not progress. So you'd have an EM and nothing more. There is a huge genetic variation among borrelia.
Nobody's going to pay for a double blind study.
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sparkle7
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I don't think there have been any double blind studies that the Bionic 880 can "cure" Lyme. I think that would be really helpful.
I have had great pain relief from using the LightWorks. Just using infrared light can make someone feel better. I don't know if this is a cure, though.
GiGi also had treatments with homeopathic medicine. Couldn't this be a cause of re-occuring symptoms such as an EM? This is an area that homeopathic medicine specializes in - digging deep to root out latent symptoms.
It just seems to me that spending 10 grand on special frequencies with infrared LEDs is too expensive. This is sort of getting into Rife machine territory with the special frequencies.
I don't know if that's the curative factor in using infrared light. It may just be the light, itself.
PS - I have nothing against anyone who is in favor or against the Bionic 880. I'm just brainstorming here based on my research & experience. Please feel free to prove me wrong.
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lymie_in_md
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GiGi excellent points, practioners are an absolute necessity for energetic testing.
On Niek's point on rash just showing up coincidentally after using the bionic 880 is a stretch. GiGi's been in remission for some time, for it to show up physically with a rash and some bell's palsy symptoms. Two physical reactions after one treatment.
OB, I perfectly understand, but stay tuned anyways. This is a 4 to 8 week course of treatments. As a group we may have ways to help all interested, we'll see.
For my part as an add on to GiGi point, I've corrected many of the Dental issues including 4 cavitations several amalgams and a retreated root canal. Lots of chelation, I had as many as 50 amalgams in and out of my mouth over my life.
I've used a detoxamin to rid any more metals and biofilm along with eating raw garlic after every meal. I still have according my doctor one kidney which needed support, solidago to the rescue, right GiGi. I'm taking zinc for the replenishment of that important mineral after the detoxamin. I'm also using MMS which I think works really well (no double blind study) but I hear Dr. K. recommends it to his patients, he must feel its a good treatment option.
I've done many of things GiGi has mentioned and they have all helped. Activated charcoal, apple pectin, and chlorella.
For my part, I really sense a need for cellular repair especially for the endocrine system.
I've energetically tested very low for mercury, lyme, or microbials.
I'm hoping Niek, Dr. W. is close enough to you for you to try his treatments and you report back here of your remission.
And thanks to all who are posting on this topic. I've learned soooo much and it is a wonderful debate.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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sparkle7
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O2babe- if the company is selling the devices for $10,000, don't you think they could arrange for some studies with local universities?
I don't think Lyme is the only thing they use the Bionic 880 for...
Testimonials are not always reliable.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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oxygenbabe
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Lymie in MD if a practitioner is Washington/Baltimore based and wants to travel up to NYC, we could certain get him/her enough patients to travel up here on a regular basis and make it worth his or her while.
Sparkle, are you serious, girl? Double blind studies are expensive! And lyme is a clinical diagnosis mostly anyway. Some folks test positive and are symptom free, other have trouble coming up with a positive and yet are sick as dogs. It's not easy to do a double blind.
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bejoy
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This device is likely to appeal to those open minded to experimentation, and not to those who are interested only in techniques with published research on it's effectiveness against lyme.
I enjoy the leg work of being a pioneer, if enough evidence exists that a product can be effective, as there is with this product.
The Bionic 880 appears to be quite similar, if not entirely the same as some other products on the market. The difference appears to be in the frequencies that it rotates through (and I don't begin to understand this yet.)
Other than frequency the main difference I see is the training in its use. You may be paying $10,000. for components that cost $50., but you are getting some expertise on how to use it, particularly with specific nosodes and also detoxing.
My impression, from reading GiGi's posts is that there is much more to it's effective use than shining the light, and they are not giving away their information and training for free (as well they should not have to!)
I'd love to find out more about what nosodes they make available, how they are used in conjunction with the light therapy, and what frequencies the machine uses, so I can compare to other machines.
I don't imagine I could begin to mimic the usage without taking the full Bionic 880 training, which would be a problem, as I don't speak any German.
As I have said about any techinique on the planet, whether craniosacral or massage or ART, it is only as good as the specific practitioner you are seeing.
It seems that any of us can get an LED 880 machine and get some benefit out of it. I think these remarkable results come from experience with a skilled practitioner (I count GiGi as one of those.)
If somebody is going to train on one effectively, I would bank on a lymie in remission. It sounds to me like it would have to be someone already skilled in some form of ART or kinesiology. They would have the understanding, compassion, and motivation for learning and providing effective therapy.
Once in practice, that person could write a grant and do the research, if interested.
Curious to see where all this will lead to in our community.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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sparkle7
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Is combining the homeopathy with the light something Dr. W came up with or is it standard to the device?
Did the manufacturer come up with this technique?
Dr. Cowden & some of the people who studied with him use some of these techniques (using LEDs, homeopathy, etc.). There are practicioners in AZ, CO, & OH that I've found that practice some of his methods.
It seems that people in CA or AZ are more interested in some of these alternative methods. For some reason, NYC seems to lag behind.
I found a medical doctor in NJ that may be a good candidate. She's in South Jersey & practices a number of alternative methods. I've never been to see her but she's an actual MD.
If anyone is interested - PM me & I'll look up her info again. I was looking for doctors in the area who are open to alternative approaches but they are hard to find. I think they get hassled by the AMA or the gov't.
People also sue them if they don't get healed & they use an alternative or unconventional method.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lymie_in_md: On Niek's point on rash just showing up coincidentally after using the bionic 880 is a stretch.
you are not reading what I said, or maybe my english is not good enough. I make no conclusions at all from ONE reported reappearing rash (assuming it is an EM, which I cannot check).
Some people get a reappearing rash after driving in a car, or reading a good book, or whatever. Now if many biophoton 880 patients would show recurring EM's within a few days or so of using the instrument (and assuming they did not start any other lyme-related medications /treatments etc.), then that would be a significant observation.
quote: I'm hoping Niek, Dr. W. is close enough to you for you to try his treatments and you report back here of your remission.
I don't even think about it, his treatments sound like complete voodoo to me and I don't want to use treatments that I can't understand a little bit. Besides, my current condition has very few real Lyme problems left (mostly severe connective tissue/skin problems which could be longterm damage).
Still, I'm interested in what he is doing because sometimes these people who work outside science have found something of value. Treating a lot of Lyme patients may help him in making observations that others are missing.
Posts: 29 | From Netherlands | Registered: Jul 2008
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lymie_in_md
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No Niek you didn't read my point about the EM rash. My point was it was a real stretch an EM rash would show up just after 880 session which hadn't been there in years. I guess you don't think very rationally or with any common sense as a so called scientist.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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oxygenbabe
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She also mentioned bells palsy symptoms returning along with the EM rash. This was short lived.
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