Sorry, there is no other word for it. Prostitutes have more dignity.

As for the soldiers, I can't help but think of what they are going through, and that this kind of thing, and other other confusing things we have seen, are a way to deal with incredible suffering. Many of them are just kids.

I do see Kara's point, though, as well.

Mo

The title of this thread is:

What Our Soldiers Are Up To --No Wonder Muslim Countries Think We Are Heathens

I should have trusted my instincts and scrolled on by

But now that I have read the article, I wanted to put my 2 cents in.

After all, you can't expect an Army Brat to let our troops be thought of as Heathens without a comment

Sorry, but the acts of a few, should not be held against the entire Military..

The majority of our troops, live up to the code they stand for..they are good, honest, brave soldiers, who are risking their lives to serve their country.

Whether one supports this war or not, our soldiers need and deserve our respect!!!

Most joined the Military because they have a great love for this country and want to do what they can to protect her.

Most soldiers are honorable.

Just because there are a few female soldiers duking it out in the mud, doesn't mean or imply that the United States Soldiers or Americans are "heathens".

Heck, male soldiers have been known to throw a few punches at each other for fun for years..it's known as boxing.

And from what I have heard, they weren't dressed in their dress uniforms..they were in their undies. ( after all, who would wrestle in the mud in their clothes? lol!)

If one can read this article and make the vast assumption that our soldiers/Americans are Heathens.... then they had a preconceived view of Americans and American soldiers as heathens before reading the article.

I mean that is such a ridiculous statement. That would be like a few trolls on this board posting uninformed posts about the treatment of lyme and all of the sudden the entire LymeNet community are a bunch of uninformed, malicious, negligent posters.

To make such a blanket statement based on the acts of a few soldiers is just wrong in my opinion.

I know at least 10 people who are serving in Iraq at this time...they are good honorable men and women..not heathens.

And rest assured, none of them are in the photo mud wrestling...and even if they were..so what!!

It doesn't make them any less of a soldier or an American..or a person. And it certainly doesn't make them heathens..

These soldiers are under a great deal of stress, and alot of them are in their early 20's....maybe they were just trying to take a break from their grueling reality and have a little fun...

Who am I to judge them???

I won't judge them.

Oh well, that's my 2 cents if anyone wants to hear it.

~LymeBrat

i will say "What Our Soldiers Are Up To..." could be more acurately worded as "what SOME of our soldiers were up to that one particular night..." or something like that.

how about some mardi gras or sturgis bike rally pics to say what US civilians are up to and justifying "Muslim Countries" hatred for us? not really fair!

well, i will just close with that remark as i have written and rewritten a couple of paragraphs but decided the delete key is my best editor when i am pi**ed off!

ACTUALLY, one thing before i come to my senses.... maybe even two! i think it is absolute BS!! and dammmmm unfortunate that THIS is considered NEWS!

how many troops are over there anyway, and how many were at the party? why smear mud in the faces of those who serve? i just imagine those involved were properly punished by thier commander.

how dare us snear down from our high horses and make judgements.

ooouuh, had to delete another paragraph so better stop. i just hope the people involved in shoveling this crap into the pages of our newspapers do not live in glass houses.

Kara said:

"You cant blame Muslims for not wanting their daughters to be like American whores.
Sorry, there is no other word for it. Prostitutes have more dignity"

WHAT???

American Whores???

These women are now American Whores.??!!??..

I am wondering if we are reading the same article??? I went back and re-read the article again, just to make sure I understood it.

And sorry, if the Muslim countries want to think of our soldiers as American Whores or Heathens, because of this article..so be it..

I would much rather live in this country..a country where our women soldiers are allowed to show their own bodies IF SHE CHOOSES TO, than a country where a women's body is not her own..

Basically what I read, was that this was some type of going away party..they women in question probably had a few drinks to celebrate...and when one drinks they sometimes make irrational decisions.

So one of them lifted up her shirt so her breast could be photographed...that makes her a whore? Whores SELL their bodies to strangers for sexual favors..not show a few people their breast.

One can see just as much looking at the cover of Sports Illustrated or in a sears catalogue...

When I was 19 years old, I went to a motorcycle weekend rally. And after a couple of drinks, I lifted up my shirt and showed my breast to a few bikers...( my hubby.. then boyfriend, was one of them) does that make me a whore in your eyes???

Sorry, but I am not a whore..nor are these women!!!!

LymeBrat

Not every group of military personel behaves like this, or engages in tourture, or commits other shocking acts we have heard about..

..but these leaks should alert as to the sufering they face.

They are kids. Many of them are kids, and are under blistering pressure every minute, every day.

I believe that's what caused even this incident among co-working soldiers and higher ranking officers. (which is much different than a social scene)

I think of what they are going through, and feel for them..as so many questions have arisen as to the abuses our military suffer in this mess, and the realities behind it..

If Muslims were to be aware of this stuff, I think they would certainly view ot as hethanistic. That based on dep religious and ethnic background. Doesn't necesarily mean the participants are heathens..

On top of that, Muslim views of Americans are extremely heightened by what they percieve as a brutal domination and occupation by the US,
their children, land, food, nadicine, water have all been devistated or destroyed by our administrative orders..

So, yes, I would think that acts that are seen as completely horrendous in the eyes of religion, especially on top of all else in their eyes.. would be taken the way Kara said.

Mo

ok Mo, thanks for puting it in a way that makes me not quite so pi**ed off. i can see where YOU are coming from, and understand what you are saying.

oh man, had to delete another paragraph so will get off here for the night...

quote:

---

Another country heard from..

Mo

---

Hey Mo....by golly I think you're right...I'd just take the whole section of the country from TX through So Cal and make it another country...Maybe include the northern Mexican states too.

And we demand that other cultures conform to our ways.

Does it ever occur to us that perhaps Middle Eastern countries dont want to be Sodom and Gomorrah?? Because that is what we are offering.

We are offering a society where womens' shirts fly open at sports events, drugs, sex, rock.

Why would anyone with a right mind want that for their society?

We say G-d Bless America. Why should he??

And yes it is whorish behavior.

It isnt as if this is the only event. When Muslim countries turn on their tv's and see what we have for entertainment they are appalled.

It is a bad idea to have women and men mixed in the military. A bad idea.

I'd say they are doing a good job of showing the world about our country.

Amen!

The truth is the truth.

Not everything we have to offer is positive.

Even for women.

P.s---I pulled up "satanic horn salute" thread to go with this thread.

I have read that the majority of divorces are brought on by the women these days. Women are starting to make almost as much as men now. I believe, there are more women getting degrees now than men. We don't need men to have children anymore.

But I agree with Jill and Kara that America has a terrible regard for women overall in media and things like that.
It's an undercurrent, even though women are professionally advancing, it's mainly still media, TV..
ect, ect..and the "adult" industry, internet..
It's very degrading to women.

So, ya..Islamic cultures (peaceful and otherwise) have tons to look at and be grnuinely horrified by our culture.

I find the underbelly pretty horrific myself!

We still have a long way to go in that dept as a society.

I mainly hate what it does to young girls these days. The whole image thing.

Mo

You cannot expect to be treated like a lady if you dont act like one.

You cannot expect to be respected if you have no respect for yourself.

These girls in the mud puddle will never be asked out by a true gentleman--what they will get, is a man who will screw them and throw them away.

That is all. And that is all they can expect.

Same thing goes for the girls at Mardi Gras who lift their shirts to strangers for beads. Men will treat them like trash.

And really..what do they expect?? You expect for a man to treat you as a prize when you treat yourself like dirt??

And I have more respect for a prostitute, because at least a prostitute knows she is worthy of payment. At least she doesnt give it away for free.

Because when I was these girls age, I participated in a Motorcycle weekend rally and bared my chest, does that mean I am an "American Whore" ?

No it doesn't!!!!

It means I had a few drinks and did something I wouldn't do under normal circumstances.

Same goes for these girls. They were having a going away party..some of them had been in Iraq for a year.. so they had a few drinks and mud wrestled in their undies..so what!

It doesn't mean they are "American Whores" or that they are heathens!!!!!

It means they are kids who have been through a grueling year in Iraq..and took a night off from the hell they have know for the past 12 months.

Man, I'm glad your not my Mom, as I would never have meet up to your noble standards! Lol!

I don't pretend to know what it is like to be a soldier in this war, and I'm not going to pretend I do..

BUT.. I am certainly not going to site upon my white horse, safely here in the United Sates of America, and judge these women as harshly as you have.

Who the heck are we to judge them?

It's not like they were on the front line throwing their thongs at the enemy, or participating in an orgy!!! ...they had the night off and had a party... can't you cut them some slack.

And as far us the Muslim countries thinking that the United States of America are a bunch of heathens, or that our soldiers are "American Whores", due to a picture of a couple of female soldiers mud wrestling and one showing her chest.. who cares! I sure as heck don't..

This statement goes beyond ridiculous. And Sorry... but I don't rank mud wrestling as heathenish or whorish. Not exactly debutant behavior, but certainly not whorish either.

You want to talk about heathenish acts..lets talk about.... oh I don't know maybe...

beheadings, public raping of women, genocide, executing people who disagree with them, making women cover themselves from head to toe, not allowing women to work, and basically stripping women of any freedoms... just to mention a few..

These acts are heathenish..not mud wrestling...

The fact is, at least in my opinion, is that no one has the right to judge the acts of these girls, except themselves and their God...

No one has the right to call them "American Whores" or heathens...

( well technically.... I guess people do have the "right" to say such things, as our forefathers and soldiers like these women, have given their lives to give us these freedoms...but I think you know what I am trying to say)

One shouldn't judge these women until they have walked a mile in their shoes..or in this case a year in their shoes..

Okay, I am going to take Loribelle's advice and stop writing before I say something I'll regret.

But let me just say this, as far as I'm concerned, calling these soldiers "American Whores" is a gross injustice to them and their families.

These girls in the mud puddle will never be asked out by a true gentleman--what they will get, is a man who will screw them and throw them away.

That is all. And that is all they can expect.

Same thing goes for the girls at Mardi Gras who lift their shirts to strangers for beads. Men will treat them like trash.

And really..what do they expect?? You expect for a man to treat you as a prize when you treat yourself like dirt??

Wow... I couldn't disagree more!!!!

This is not the dark ages for crying out loud..these girls will not be condemned to a life of shame or be shunned from society...

My God, all they did was have a party...they were leaving Iraq after up to a year of service and had a little fun...true perhaps they used poor judgment, but who hasn't at some point in their life?

There isn't a decent man in the world who will look down upon them for having mud wrestled in their undies or for showing her chest to a few people at a party..

And if a man were to judge these women as you suggest they should, personally they are not the type of man I would want in my life!!!! And they would certainly NOT be a gentleman!

A hypocrite sure, but not a gentleman.!

And I hate to prove you wrong, but let me just say that my husband has no less respect for me as a woman or a person because I had a few drinks and lifted my shirt during the motorcycle rally!!!!!

He was there and laughed it off..we were kids. No older than these soldiers.

And rest assure, he didn't screw me and throw me away, as you suggested I would deserve...! He has kept me for over 23 years!

In fact, my husband, is one of the nicest men I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. He is a good kind husband and friend and an excellent father.

We have been together since I was 14 years old, and I love him more today than I did 23 years ago when we first met.

And as I am sitting here typing this, my husband wanted me to tell you that he is very thankful to have me for his friend and wife.

So ya see, thank God everyone doesn't judge people as harshly as you...

I Am a good person, a good wife, a good mother and a good friend. I go to church, I'm on the PTA, I'm on several committees at school, and I even bake goodies for all the fairs..

So ya see, you can't judge a person you know nothing about, by a picture or one incident.

Yet you have condemned these soldiers and anyone else who has ever mud wrestled or bared her chest at a party ... as trash, or a whore.

I am not a whore, nor am I trash. And my husband is a gentleman and heaven forbid, he loves me despite the fact that I showed my chest to some bikers when I was a kid.

My husband has never thought of me as trash or a whore, nor has he ever treated me like trash or a whore. We have the utmost respect for one another.

I guess I like to think all people are good..I always look for the good in a person or in a situation.

And I would never jump to a conclusion about these soldiers integrity, based on one lapse...

and I am sure there are many so called gentlemen out there, who will look beyond the gossip and look into the hearts of these women and I quarantine they will find someone to love and will not be considered trash or whorish.

~LymeBrat

I did not call you a whore.

The Middle East does view American women in general as whorish because of the general behavior on tv and in movies.

So far as who you bear your chest too...that is your business.

I just hope that when you pulled up against women bike riders that your boyfriend/husband took out his penis so that the women could take a look.

Or is it appropriate for women to show their chests, but not ok for men to display their penis to strangers??

And as I did show my chest, I just wanted to clarify your misconception that just because a woman bared her chest, it does not mean she is a whore or trash.

And you said "I just hope that when you pulled up against women bike riders that your boyfriend/husband took out his penis so that the women could take a look.

Or is it appropriate for women to show their chests, but not ok for men to display their penis to strangers?? Fair is fair."

Actually it was my first motorcycle rally. We were camping out at the rally site. And there was maybe 25 people there..both men and women.

I had a few drinks and in the heat of the moment, I lifted my shirt when the other bikers dared us girls to.

And honestly, I think my hubby ( then boyfriend) would have considered showing the girls his parts, had he not been so amused that his little "goodie too shoes" girl friend had just shown her chest.

I would have had no problem with him showing the girls..it's his body. And it was all in fun. There were no children there, we were all of age, and no harm was done.

And truth be known, I'm not at all ashamed I did it. Neither is my husband. Heck I even went skinny dipping a few times.

I am proud of who I am and if I made a few mistakes in my past, I will own up to them...but it is not for others to decide if I am a whore or not.

It doesn't make me or these women whores or trash, is all I was trying to say.

~LymeBrat

When you are a GUEST is someone's country (or home) you go by their rules..out of respect and out of sheer decency.

Do you go to a Muslims home and bring them a gift of pig meat??

Do you go to a Mormon's house and take out a cigar and booze and start smoking??

We are a guest in Iraq.

Which means out of common sheer decency we should go by their standards.

Whether or not certain things are acceptable in the US is totally irrelevant!

It is NOT acceptable for women and men to behave this way in a Muslim country (together or seperate) If they were citizens they would be arrested.

It is unacceptable.

It is heathistic because it is uncivilized.

It is uncivilized because it goes to the basic idea of hospitality.

And even that we cant seem to understand.

***
I also believe that if women soldiers go off of the base they should wear the local headcovering.

I am not talking about a burka (which has no Islamic roots). But a simple scarf or hat.

When in Rome...do as the Romans do.

We may not believe in Islamic Law (I certainly do not).

However, I believe in the basic rules of hospitality and the right for other countries to practive their own ways without inference from anyone else.

But OK we won't do it in sexually repressive countries in public.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kara Tyson:
You cant blame Muslims for not wanting their daughters to be like American whores.

Sorry, there is no other word for it. Prostitutes have more dignity.

---

Pretty harsh and overly judgemental Kara.....especially coming from someone that idolizes Motley Crue and the sleeze factor that defines the band....the Motley whore lifestyle. The chicks at Motley shows makes these military girls look like nuns, yet your boys get the big thumbs up and you openly dig that whole scene which is largely promoted as a metal whore scene.

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe Muslim parents in the middle east don't want their girls to be like American girls because they see girls like Kara at a Motley show? They can't tell who the whores are because so many of the girls are dressed like whores. And maybe there's some straight laced American girl out there that can't stand the metal scene, thinks it's a US cultural embarrassment to the Muslim world, and thinks that even prostitutes have more dignity than these metal chicks. Would that be fair? Of course not. I don't think your comments about those girls are fair either. The hypocracy is overwhelming here.

As a professing man of God and I personally think that's a genuine description apart from what you may feel about his foreign policies. He and Mrs. Bush have expressed opinions about the moral decline of this country with regard to sexual explicitness in the arts & entertainment aimed at our young people.

Say what you want. I dont respond to personal attacks. So I have no comment.

Whether you like it or not, Muslim counties see American women as whores.

And it isnt a comment without merit. We have earned the reputation.

In this country we have forgotten how to blush.

A major problem with US foreign policy is that we do not understand other societies. And we dont want to learn.

In Arab counties to dishonor hospitality is equal to MURDER! Do we understand this?? No! We havent a clue.

That is why Lot was willing to throw his daughers out into a crowd to be molested rather than have strangers in his home hurt.

***
And I stand my comment.

And the men are no better. Because they are getting off on sexual violence. And that says a whole lot about them.

Can we see any parrallels to us here in the USA? I hope we can and reverse the cultural black hole created by the same perverse beliefs depicted in those depraved men that would ravage male or female.

God's judgement came down upon them by way of angelic host who blinded the eyes of those that lusted with such vileness....then the city of Sodom & Gomorrah were torched to the ground as we all know. God have mercy on the blind and will not see the end result.

"But let me just say this, as far as I'm concerned, calling these soldiers "American Whores" is a gross injustice to them and their families."
----------------------------------------------------------
I think Kara should have used a better analogy here; perhaps more like you have stated that they had too much to drink, acted inappropriately and made foolish decisions. There was no public sexual acts taking place that at least were reported.

I do however understand Kara's dismay over the prevalence of these public displays of immodesty and degrading oneself as a female or male. you'd hope we can raise our children to think more of themselves with a sense of personal dignity.
To judge a person in the spiritual sense, means we are making a judgement whether a person is saved or not. As only God alone can see a persons true heart condition, we aren't capable of judging another based on that criteria.

But......how one presents themselves outwardly to others, does say something about the nature of their character, do they demonstrate self respect, personal discipline, self control?
So many of the young adults today are sorely lacking these character strengths thanks to the learned behaviors from TV, entertainment media, and other materials that degrade and dehumanize the human body. So much confusion about the value and worth of the created divine worth.

This can only be restored when we understand a higher calling from the one that made us in HIS likeness.

You are correct.

My whole analogy is that Muslim countries see American women as whores. Period. End of story.

What I think is irrelevant.

What you think is irrelevant.

What Americans think is irrelevent.

It is what it is. We have an image problem.

I would not want Muslim law enacted here in the US.

Why do we think that Muslims want our laws?? How vain can you get. Not every country wants to be like us.

Why is that so hard for Americans to understand?

As for Lot, the issue of G-d is a side point.

In Arab culture the issue of hospitality is huge. To go to someone's home and behave in an insulting manner is unthinkable.

It is like going to a persons home who has just spent their last dime to have their carpet deep cleaned and deliberatly taking out a can of red paint and smearing it into the rug.

It is ruined. And since they have no money left...it is not easily replaceble.

If someone loans you a dress, do you treat the dress like your own?? NO.

You treat it better than your own.

Because i was raised in a family where manners and thinking of others and also what others (thought of us) that being of course superficial.
Still, the basic social graces were emphasized and I grew up a level of consideration for others.
This would transfer in my thinking towards others and cultural differences too. I sense you were raise similarly. My mother and her mother, and her mother's mother all grew up in Alabama.

The Middle East culture is so different from ours due to their strict observances in religions.
The problem with some of their teachings, is that they lack tolerance for other ways of living ie: personal freedoms. They throw the perverbial baby out with the bath water so to speak.

I don't know any Middle Eastern folks, but I 'm sure they're are many loving, tolerant people there. I don't blame them for thinking we here are pretty decadant since the images they have of us is likely as distorted as our mainstream thinking is of them. Sad

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kara Tyson:
24bit,

Say what you want. I dont respond to personal attacks. So I have no comment.

Whether you like it or not, Muslim counties see American women as whores.

And it isnt a comment without merit. We have earned the reputation.

In this country we have forgotten how to blush.

A major problem with US foreign policy is that we do not understand other societies. And we dont want to learn.

In Arab counties to dishonor hospitality is equal to MURDER! Do we understand this?? No! We havent a clue.

That is why Lot was willing to throw his daughers out into a crowd to be molested rather than have strangers in his home hurt.

***
And I stand my comment.

And the men are no better. Because they are getting off on sexual violence. And that says a whole lot about them.

[This message has been edited by Kara Tyson (edited 12 February 2005).]

---

So you can hide behind the "it's a personal attack" (like your attack on these girls wasn't personal, lol), but the reality is that you can't say anything because you're flat out busted. On this topic you're the ultimate hypocrate.

I don't know if you can say hypocrisy here....Kara may well attend a Motley Crue concert, yet behave and dress totally without sexual inference. I enjoy some alternative bands whose lifestyles I wouldn't want to adopt for myself,yet think the music has merit and I go hear them on that alone.

I 'm thinking Kara has never bared her chest to a 'Rock Star' or an audiance in a mosh pit. If so, then she'd be hypocritical.....doing exactly the thing she criticizes.

I have never attacked anyone personally on this site. Ever.

And you are right. I am a hypocrite just like everyone else.

But it doesnt change my feelings one little bit.

My personal opinion is that the behavior is trashy. Other people are free to believe that it is perfectly acceptable. That is their choice.

Some people believe that it is ok for a 5 year old to wear high heals and makeup. That is their choice.

I would never ever associate with someone who behaved in this manner. Ever. Other people can choose who they wish to associate with. That is their choice.

And no one I know would want to be around that type of behavior. But that is just my social circle.

What is considered "below stairs" depends on your social circle. Whether in the US or in the middle east.

But I still say, when you are a guest you go by someone elses rules of conduct. No matter what your personal opinion.

An example: I know someone who was staying asa guest in a home for a few days.

A roach crawled across the room. She didnt kill it.

Why? The couple she was staying with was Hindu. Hindu's do not believe in killing any animal. So she let the roach go about its business.

No one was around. No one would have know. But that isnt the point.

quote:

---

Originally posted by charlie:
Who cares what those mired in a medieval puritanical culture think anyway.

I say put all the muslims in the iSlammer till they wise up and let the rest of us party on!

---

I have been following this post for several days now and trying to look at all sides. Putting aside all religious beliefs which I feel are all too controlling and manipulative (each religion has their own motives for dictating how their members are to behave, that's only my opinion and I find and have seen and witnessed that many religious fanatics are hypocrits).

Just looking at the act (mud wrestling). I had to put aside everything that I had been taught and instilled in me and look just at THIS ACT. There is nothing wrong with it, it is not immoral or anything like that, whether male or female. Everybody is different and has different tastes, etc.

It's like your leader or your religion or your parents tell you something from a very young age and you can only see that one-sided idea b/c that is all you have ever been taught. For example, I had a friend whose dad was a counsellor for many years to young native indians who had been sexually abused. The children in their mind did not know what they had been engaging in was wrong, that was just their world as they knew it.

Then along came the social workers, religious people, the government who all jumped on them and made them feel so guilty and ashame, the shame of which they carry to this day within themselves. This counsellor said this "attitude" had done far more harm than anything that had happened to them before and was far more abusive in the end result.

It's the mentality that one has been brought up with that decides which side/stand an individual is going to take, whether american or from the middle east.

There are very few on point responses here.

One of the main problems in this whole mess, beyond the mud wrestling among soldiers..
is that our administration, and a large percentage of the American public do not think at all about the people and their views and background..while shouting out that we are saving them.

Mo

[This message has been edited by HaplyCarlessdave (edited 13 February 2005).]

lymebrat,you are a new englander.kara,you are from the deep south.your veiw's are regional.so are your lifestyle's.

kara,your part of the country is somewhat conservative.i am not talkng politic's.

missy your part of the country is somewhat mainstream,with a dash of conservatisim.you being so close to canada,iwould think there are canadian trait's there also.

you are eating at the same table,but have differant menu's. there is no wrong . it is the way you see the thing's.

understand? hope so.took me all morning to get that from my head,to the keyboard....gary p.s. hey lyme veteran,yea you! you never came back to the post on medical last week.you are a troubled lad...

Even Arab Christians dont normally eat pig meat because culturally it is so vile.

So you see, it is multiple insults in one.

It is insult with the interactions of the sexes.

It is an insult with the drunkenness.

It is an insult with the nudity (and a thong is considered nude in Iraq--and even here in AL you can be arrested for a thong bathingsuit).

It is an insult with people behaving like a swine.

But most of all it is an insult to hospitality.

To tell you the truth, I dont know how we could have insulted every aspect of the culture more.

Maybe if the women were mud westling and having sex with pigs...

Most Americans have no idea how insulting this one event was. It insulted EVERY aspect of the culture I can think of.

[This message has been edited by Kara Tyson (edited 13 February 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Kara Tyson (edited 13 February 2005).]

I do live in the South. That is a fact.

But my culture is more Macedonian. I know plenty of Arabs.

No way around that.

Whether the individuals act like whores in other ways we can't say or know, and doesn't really matter..

It is whorish behavior, and many Muslims and Iraquis take deep offence to it.

Mo

I think truly our Gov. hasnt a clue as to how much damage the behavior of each individual soldier matters. From mud wrestling down to abuse at prisons.

How in the world can we insult people locally in a country and at the same time pat ourselves on the back...I just dont get it.

Whether or not we believe the behavior is acceptable (and all of us seem to differ on that) is really not the point.

The issue is...are the local people in Iraq offended by this behavior? And yes they are.

Not only do we not understand this. The truth is...we dont care if we offend. From our point of view people should want to be like us.

In regards to how offensive this is to Arabs, I cant really give an American example because we no longer have taboos in this country.

Things seem to go off on tangents around here some times .. especially re: Iraq relations.

thank's for the cultural education on the arab world.i never gave it indepth thought. i guess that's what you are saying.

i'm only going to be 50 for another 6 month's..lol..gary

Colonial powers have never respected local traditions, etc. The one holding the gun makes the rules and I don't think the ones at the top really care one way or another. They just whitewash everything over, sweep it under the carpet, keep it under wraps, etc.

I think most governments (any institution in a position of power and leadership), at least what I can see here in Canada and U.S.A., just try to hide everything. From experience what I have witnessed is that many people will try to get away with a lot of things and then when caught, they say I am sorry and then supposedly everything is supposed to be OK. NOT!!!

It's only when a person gets caught that they say they are sorry, they are not sorry they did something wrong, only that they got caught. Otherwise they just keep on doing whatever it is they are doing in the hope they won't get caught. Now when an institution has the power to hide so much, do you really think they are sorry. I imagine there are a few such leaders, but far and between. Any government can justify anything, it's so easy to appeal to so many.

Do I think this behaviour is out of line? Under the circumstances, yes, b/c it is in another's country where local customs do not permit such behaviour. I honestly am having a real problem with this dilemma. I look at a person. e.g. someone I know personally, what characteristics make up this person, are they basically a good person? There are probably some things I take exception to, or don't agree with them on everything. It all depends on just how serious this "defect" is. These actions offended their morals, sense of decency, religious overtones, etc.

There are many soldiers in many countries over the last who knows how many years who have behaved boorishly and much much worse. It is very difficult to control this aspect. There are people at the top who have definitely behaved far far worse than this and encourage this type of behaviour, but hide behind their position. They have the power and the money to halt such viewing of their activities. Do you honestly think that every person recruited is an upstanding citizen? I have known many soldiers, have soldiers in my family, and I can't stand to be in the same room b/c of the things they have said and done. I am ashamed of some of their actions/thoughts/persuasions, etc. But the bottom line is they are there and we are not and we cannot judge them. It's the standards held at the top that are the real problems. Do you honestly think GWB, his father, cheney, rumsfield would not find this humorous?

This is a very complex issue, and Kara, I just don't think we can discuss this one issue without having a look at so many others. Leadership and role modeling starts at the top and I don't see any real leadership and role models there.

We agree on much.

My husband was in the 1st Gulf war and the soldiers were briefed extensivly about what is considered offensive to Muslims (he knew this already, of course).

I wonder if this has been done. I doubt it. Many of these kids are very young and from rural America. Chances are they never ever come in contact with an American of Arab decent.

No matter which side of the fence people are on as to whether or not we should be there, I think it is obvious that certain things were just not thought out.

One of the MAJOR blunders in Afganistan was that we were distributing food items containing pork!

And those that did not contain pork many times violated halal regulations (kosher to a Muslim).

In addition, we were distributing food during fasting times.

As much as we not believe in these regulations...this is Arab society.

I sent the mud wresting article to my mother. When I asked her about it she said automatically, "you mean they were rolling in mud like a pig??". Her automatic reaction was a pig association.

There is the term "ugly" American. And it has nothing to do with the way we look but rather the way we behave.

But the stigma with Arab Christians is more of basic cleanliness.

Pigs in the mideast are known to eat from garbage dumps.

They also dig and because Orthodox Jews/ Muslims are not buried in coffins, the pigs sometimes dig up people and eat them.

My mom says swine are the only animal that will do this. I dont know if this is true. Wild dogs probably will I would think.

I'm sure the President and the others with him find the actions of those immature military women & men an embarressment and some humiliation over the disrespectfulness while in their country, whether or not you consider us "guests." I see it more that we're there out of necessity and role of protector until they can safely govern themselves.
We weren't exactly invited there which distinguishes our being there from a guest status per se.

Pigs wallow in the mud to keep
themselves cool. A good coating
of mud helps protect them from sun-
burn and bug bites. Pigs cannot sweat
through their skin like people can;
therefore, the mud draws heat out
through the skin, helping to regulate
the pig's body temperature on hot
days.
2
Pigs have a false reputation for
being dirty, but they are really
clean animals. Piglets are nearly
housebroken when they are born. They
will go to a far corner of the nest and
use it as a toilet and keep the rest of
their nest clean.
3
Pigs are very intelligent. It is
believed they are as smart (if not
smarter) than dogs.
4
Pigs like a variety of food, just
like people do. Pigs who live at
sanctuaries eat apples, carrots, peach-
es, potatoes, bread, pears, lettuce,
broccoli, oranges, grapes, tomatoes,
pig chow, hay, grasses, nuts and
seeds.
5
Little piglets will drink about
eight quarts of milk a day (in 24
hours). Eight quarts of milk is equal
to 32 glasses! Piglets nurse from their
mothers like all mammals.
6
It is true that pigs are large ani-
mals, but they are not quite as big
as most dinosaurs. The average pig
weighs between 600 and 800 pounds.
That is three to four times bigger
than a large man!
7
A pig's nose is one of the animal's
most unique features. Their noses
are long and reinforced with tough
cartilage and covered with tiny sensi-
tive pores. Because pigs have such
sensitive noses, they are experts at
smelling out hidden food. Their snouts
are very sensitive to touch also. They
use their noses to root, or dig, for
vegetable roots and favorite foods.
8
It is believed that
domestic pigs are
descendants of the wild boars of
Europe. Another relative of the pig
is the African warthog.
9
Not only does a pig's nose help
him or her find food, but it is
used to get at their food. Pigs use
their noses as digging tools to help
them look for things to eat like grubs,
snails, worms, and various insects or
tender plant roots.
10
Pigs are raised in tiny,
cramped cages on factory
farms. It is a miserable life for a pig.
Pigs need to be outside to have room
to graze, to be provided with a warm
barn to sleep in, and to have straw on
which to make a soft bed. Pigs like to
be around other pigs. On factory
farms, they are given none of the
things they need, except food and
water.
11
Unfortunately, people raise
pigs primarily to kill them for
ham, sausage, pork chops and bacon.
It is sad that people see pigs as just
food machines and grow them like
they are crops instead of seeing them
as sensitive, intelligent beings. More
than 90 million pigs are killed each
year just in the United States.
12
Go veggie! Give up the ham
sandwiches, bacon, sausage
and pork chops.
Recommended Reading
Charlotte's Web by E.B. White. Wilbur is one of the most famous pigs
to appear in children's literature. Wilbur was a runt, and was adopted
by a girl named Fern who never stops loving him even after he is taken
to her uncle's farm. Wilbur is befriended by Charlotte, a spider who lives
in the barn with him. With Charlotte's help, Wilbur tries to avoid the
fate which befalls all pigs.
Sausage Patty by Diane Allevato. Sausage Patty was purchased for a 4-
H project by a young girl. She plans to sell Sausage Patty at the county
fair to make enough money to buy a horse. But the story has an unex-
pected ending as the young girl begins learning about and understand-
ing how wonderful pigs really are. (See order form on back page for
how you can receive your FREE copy).
Perfect the Pig by Susan Jeschke. Perfect the Pig longs for wings to fly
away. When his wish is magically granted, he takes off for the skies and
eventually comes to rest on the windowsill of an artist named Olive.
The two become fast friends but when Perfect gets lost in flight, he is
captured by an evil showman who forces him to perform tricks for
money.
PIG
facts

Remember God doesn't make junk; every species has it's purpose here on Earth. Contrary to the belief that pigs are despicable creatures.

They are unique that is for sure.

They also eat their own waste.

Pigs do not eat their own waste, that is a myth. I have raised pigs, they are very clean. They lie in mud to keep cool. They are also very intelligent, believe it or not, are much smarter and kindlier than dogs. This has been studied extensively. And there are only certain foods they can digest, never give them melons or cucumbers, they will die, they cannot digest this food.

I have cured and smoked my own hams, etc. You are right Weeza3, everything living organism on this earth is meant to be used and useful. Tradition in all cultures plays a role in what is grown and eaten, e.g. my friend's Ukrainian grandmother says that asparagus is a weed in the old country and wonders why would anyone pay such an exorbitant amount for a weed. See??

Weeza3, as regards GWB et al, and humorous, you would be mighty surprised at what actually most men would find humorous and what turns them on, whatever their position in life. Just b/c someone is the president, doesn't mean they do not have a lewd mind or even a nobel mind. Their actions belie what they actually believe. For GWB's inauguration, what band did GWB have as lead entertainment? We've been through that on other posts.

Again their humiliation and embarrassment stems from getting "caught." GWB and his cronies in my opinion do not care one way or another about anything except themselves. Of course, his groupies also cash in one way or another. Where money and power is concerned, most people somehow drop their "morals" until they get caught. I know I am a cynic, but this comes from my life experiences. People in authority are usually not to be trusted.

" People in authority are usually not to be trusted." by, Corinne

Oh, Corinne I don't think that's a universal truth. We must have respect for authorities which we hopefully learned as a child, our parents being our first teachers. Then.... comes employers, law enforcement, and others. There's a place for us all to be in submission to those in authority over us. It can teach us respectfulness for those who might know more than we, teaches humility so we don't become arrogant. These are just a few.

I'm thinking perhaps you meant to say you've lost respect for "some" people with too much "Power." Yes, I agree that the governing system can produce this lust for power and many have abused it and don't deserve our trust or respect.

That's why there needs to be close scrutiny for all they do which I feel our investigative reporters and media do a good job of uncovering any abuses.

She was wearing tight jeans (as in painted on) and what I call a 'boob' shirt. It was a shirt that dipped down and would have shown alot of cleavage if she had had any. And it was off both shoulders and you could see through it. She was wearing what looked like a black sports bra-like thing under it. And she was wearing boots with a good 2 inch heel on it. She had more makeup on than I've seen in a very long time.

My jaw almost dropped when I saw this girl.

I would never let my daugther out of the house like that. And this girl was apparently with her mother - who I did not see but heard her yelling 'mom' at.

She was also extremely loud and annoying. She was in the way of an elderly couple trying to take their cart outside and she just stood there and made them go around her instead of moving out of the middle of the aisle.

But, what do we expect when little girls have Britney and Christina to look up to?

This is how our children are turning out partly because of how our society is.

Is it no suprise that children, yes children, see oral sex as not sex? Our kids are having sex at such a young age now, it's scary.

In 2003, 83% of the episodes of the top 20 shows among teen viewers contained some sexual content, including 20% with sexual intercourse

42% of the songs on the top CDs in 1999 contained sexual content -- 19% included direct descriptions of sexual intercourse

On average, music videos contain 93 sexual situations per hour, including eleven "hard core" scenes depicting behaviors such as intercourse and oral sex

Girls who watched more than 14 hours of rap music videos per week were more likely to have multiple sex partners and to be diagnosed with a sexually transmitted disease

Before parents raised an outcry, Abercrombie and Fitch marketed a line of thong underpants decorated with sexually provocative phrases such as "Wink Wink" and "Eye Candy" to 10-year-olds

Neilson estimates that 6.6 million children ages 2-11 and 7.3 million teens ages 12-17 watched Justin Timberlake rip open Janet Jackson's bodice during the 2004 Super Bowl halftime show.

Corrine's a big girl I think she knew what she meant to say..

..but you said:

That's why there needs to be close scrutiny for all they do which I feel our investigative reporters and media do a good job of uncovering any abuses.

Well..the media has uncovered quire allot of very condemning information (on top of the recent history itself forming)..yet there is a portion of the country (and a few here on OT) who immediately dismisses all that no matter what the source..

then you say:

I maintain he's a man with a moral conscience and cares how he lives out his life before his maker.

You don't have to answer..I'm putting this out to all who may feel this way...

On what do you base this belief?

The only indication of this has been out of Bush's mouth and all over the campaign for office.. rhetoric.

(His deeds surely do not match this "code"..)

Is this believed solely because he says he has a moral conscience?

Mo

The stats on young girls and their current role models, TV, ect is really frightening these days.

I think parents have to work really hard against some of this.

My son's home with Lyme over a year and a half..which is very hard on him.
However, his TV consists of Discovery Channel and old black and white sit coms on dish.

He has some friends who are of the same mindset..but visits cousins who are more "up" on the pop scene..they faithfullywatch some of these TV shows..so the culture shock element is there no matter what you do.

We were all watching the flying booby incident together.

He's at an age where we all just busted out laughing...but still..

Then, this year we watched Paul Mcartney at halftime..

and he said "I think they are trying to make up for last year".. acurate observation, I'd say ..but ya gotta love Paul..

I guess our best bet is to raise them with an observant eye, it can work for parents if they get enough positive messages across so they may see the sillines themselves, I hope, but it isn't easy.
The friends they choose matter allot, too.

I guess I am not the only one who feels the way I do. Just spent about 5 minutes looking up info. I have no idea if these sites are conservative or liberal. I think it applies to all parties world wide. I will post web address and a few snippets from each.
http://www.drugsense.org/tfy/trust1.htm
Americans Losing Trust in Each Other and Institutions
Richard Morin and Dan Balz, 28 Jan 1996, Washington Post

Janie Drake is a 48-year-old Detroit mother of three who trusts almost nobody. She doesn't trust the neighborhood teenager with his low-riding pants "slopping over his behind, you know how." Not big corporations, not labor unions, not local store owners, nobody except family or longtime friends.
And like a majority of Americans, Drake said she "certainly does not" trust the government. Why should she? "If we can't trust each other, how can we trust the federal government?"

Every generation that has come of age since the 1950s has been more mistrusting of human nature, a transformation in the national outlook that has deeply corroded the nation's social and political life.

The relationship between how Americans view each other and how they view the government is one of the major findings of a new national survey by The Washington Post, Harvard University and the Kaiser Family Foundation. The survey was supplemented by two focus groups, interviews and conversations with Americans around the country, as well as with political scientists and other experts.

"If this were simply a matter of trust in government, then politicians could figure out what people don't like about government and political leaders and change it," said Eric Uslaner, a University of Maryland political scientist who was one of the first to identify the relationship between declining trust in human nature and attitudes toward politics and government. "But that's not the problem. The reason our politics is behaving badly is because the whole country is behaving badly."

Today, nearly two in three Americans believe that most people can't be trusted; three decades ago a majority of Americans believed that most people could be trusted. Half say most people would cheat others if they had the chance, and an equal proportion agree that "most people are looking out for themselves," the survey found.

The decline in trust in government has echoed the fall in personal trust. In 1964, three in four Americans trusted the federal government all or most of the time, a view shared by one in four persons today, according to the Post/Harvard/Kaiser survey.
This collapse of trust in human nature has fueled the erosion of trust in government and virtually every other institution, the survey found. Mistrustful Americans repeatedly expressed far less confidence in the federal government, the military, the Supreme Court, Congress and the Clinton administration than the dwindling numbers of Americans who were more upbeat about human nature.

But for politicians and others looking to repair the system, the other side of the coin is perhaps even more troubling: The more people know, the less confidence they had in government. Among those with high levels of knowledge about current issues or politics, 77 percent expressed only some confidence in the federal government, a view shared by 67 percent less-informed respondents. Better, but not by much.

Scholars like Putnam describe the generation that came of age after World War II as the last, great civic generation. Since then, every generation has been more mistrustful of human nature than the last, according to The Post/Harvard/Kaiser survey.
Today, a clear majority of respondents in their early 20s said they do not trust their fellow Americans, a view they share with one in four Americans over the age of 60.

Trust, however, is acquired in early childhood, and is far more likely to diminish than to increase with age, said Wendy Rahn, a political scientist at the University of Minnesota who has done pioneering research into the causes and consequences of personal mistrust.

Mistrust of one another breeds suspicion toward government, and sometimes outright fear.

An environment in which a majority of Americans believe that most people can't be trusted breeds attitudes that hold all politicians as corrupt, venal and self-serving, and government action as doomed to failure.

Sharon Seal, 42, considers herself "an optimist by nature," but these days she sees "a sense of hopelessness and frustration" in people around her. Much of that, she said, comes from a sluggish and increasingly impersonal economy.

The Post/Harvard/Kaiser poll found that more than a third of all Americans fall into what could be called the "economically anxious" category, people who see the economy worsening, their own financial future deteriorating and who doubt their children will fare better than they have.

Maryland's Uslaner draws a straight line between economic well-being and trust in others. "When things look bright, as they did in the 1960s, people will trust others," he said. "When people worry about the future, fewer will trust others."

"I think what the federal government asks of us is disproportionate to what it's willing to give back to us," said Gaymelle Dorsey, 44, a placement counselor for a computer school who lives in Hackensack.

A majority of Americans blame Washington for allowing U.S. jobs to go overseas and for failing to create more jobs here at home.
"I think one place where the government has made a mistake is this idea of unlimited free trade," said Merrell, of Cliffside Park, N.J. "We've exported a lot of our jobs, especially jobs at the low end of the scale. . . . I don't say we should make ourselves a fortress, build a wall and then shut the door, but we may have gone too far."

More than half of those surveyed said they are not at all confident their children will do better than they have done, a belief that also diminishes their trust in government.

There's this tremendous pressure for government to help people, but there are also people who are furious with government for what they see as waste and greed and inefficiencies."

"Politicians will use the tools that are readily available to advance themselves," Mitchell said. "With the rise of distrust, it has become easier to lead people by dividing them" than by finding areas of agreement.

I think I know why you take the stance you do. You are either a politician, or a wealthy member of the republican party, or are in a position of authority within a evangelical religious organization, or maybe all three.

Here's another snippet:
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/trust.htm

REPORT ON TRUST
IN GOVERNMENT & MEDIA
by Michael Hodges - email
- with pictures -
(updated Nov. 2004)
- a chapter of the Grandfather Economic Reports -

There is a serious trend, regarding citizen trust in government -
64% of citizens do not trust government,
a massive change in 3 decades, indicating declining legitimacy
78% believe the federal government has too much power;
also, state & local governments are increasing their power each year, as their employees grow in numbers faster than the general population - reaching a historic high ratio last year.

Trust in government correlates to trust in certain professionals > > lawyers and news professionals:
�h Most federal & state legislators are lawyers, yet Citizen Trust in the Honesty & Ethics of lawyers has declined to new lows. Is there a coincidence that while the USA leads the world in lawers per capita it also leads in trade deficits?
�h And - Citizen Trust for honesty and ethics for News Professionals also declined to a new low - -
- yet citizens depend on news professionals to monitor government and report unbiased news,
although 96% believe it's their duty to 'educate' the public, instead of simply providing balanced and unbiased news, yet at election time 89% of those reporting news vote for the political party most aligned with 'big government'.

November 28, 2004 - 50% of U.S. political leaders are considered dishonest. Reuters News Service reports: "A survey, carried out in 60 countries by the Gallup International polling organization for the Swiss-based World Economic Forum, found In North America, covering the United States and Canada, that 50 percent of the sample felt political leaders are dishonest, and 47 percent believe business leaders behave unethically. In Western Europe as a whole 46 percent of the survey sample described their politicians as dishonest." http://reuters.myway.com/article/20041118/2004-11-18T134256Z_01_L1764619_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SWISS-SURVEY-DC.html

Opinion of News Professionals' Ethics Steadily Declining
"The long-term trends of Gallup's honesty and ethics survey reveal a growing skepticism among the American public regarding the ethics of news professionals. The three news professions surveyed all remain significantly lower than when they were first placed on the list. Twenty-one percent of the public says journalists are honest and ethical, a percentage that has declined steadily from its debut of 33% in 1977. Two specific news professions that first appeared on the list in 1981, TV reporting and newspaper reporting, have also dipped significantly. Currently, 21% of the public rates TV reporters as having high ethical standards; down steadily from the 36% they received in 1981. Similarly, just 16% of the public gives newspaper reporters very high or high ethical ratings. Again, this percentage has decreased consistently since 1981, when it was 30%." Gallup Poll Nov. 27, 2000

Author Note: the declining citizen trust in the ethics of news professionals, coupled with their propensity to primarily vote for a single ideology (which encompasses big government over individual responsibility), suggests a serious issue today and looking forward.

As another example impacting trust today: Trust in government will not be improved as more citizens become aware that those bragging about balancing the federal budget have evaded telling the full truth - on purpose. To camouflage the size of the federal budget deficit, all surplus funds (intended for future pensions) are siphoned-off by the general government for non-pension spending - - an illegal practice if done in the private sector. (see the current status in the Budget Deficit and Trust Fund Siphon Report). This certainly is a negative concerning citizen trust in government.
All $800 billion of the extra FICA collected to date from working people intended as trust fund surpluses for the future has been siphoned-off by the government and spent on non-pension things, including $109 billion in just the past fiscal year. Some report the unannounced plan is to siphon-off and consume another $2.5 trillion between now and 2012 when the trust fund's outflows for seniors exceed inflows. Politicians are not earning public trust by presuming all citizens are too stupid to be misled forever.

Don't feel too bad, citizens here in Canada feel the same way about politicians, lawyers, government, etc. Knowing what I know about the Canadian government/politicans, they are truly not worthy of our trust. I have worked for three levels of government, I have also been involved in politics, worked with the justice system (I am not a criminal though), spent far too many years involved in church politics, had a daughter studying to become a lawyer, but who quit b/c of ethics, etc. Weeza3, I have no good reason to trust any of them. There are only a few people I trust and that is only after they have proven they are trustworthy.

I am a Conservative Republican. As a Christian My views and personal beliefs are more compatible within the conservative Right. I'm wealthy when I compare my 'haves" with the majority of the world with far less. By American standards, am classified as one of the middle class.
I don't believe in "blind" faith in someone or institution; but agree that trust comes as I prove myself trustworthy in the eyes of others. I think it's important to accept people on faith value and benefit of the doubt unless or until they prove me wrong. My faith helps me to keep an open heart as opposed to being cynical at the start.

People will let you down, I've let others down over my lifetime; since we are imperfect and mistakes help us make better choices. I'm a huge believer that people have the capacity to change for the better, redeem their mistakes if the heart is right.
****************************************************
Mo,

"Well..the media has uncovered quire allot of very condemning information (on top of the recent history itself forming)..yet there is a portion of the country (and a few here on OT) who immediately dismisses all that no matter what the source.." quote: Mo

There are "sources" and then there are sources Mo.....one has to find the balance from within all
the personal and hidden agendas.
__---------------------------------------------

"I maintain he's a man with a moral conscience and cares how he lives out his life before his maker." weeza

"You don't have to answer..I'm putting this out to all who may feel this way...

On what do you base this belief?" Mo

The article below and others I read and commentaries about President Bush before his election has helped me to learn about his personal beliefs:

George W. Bush�
This is an excerpt from George W. Bush's book, "A CHARGE TO KEEP" (Morrow).� It is in chapter 10 titled "The Big 4-0", beginning on page 136. Also sent as an Email widely.� This does not to endorse a particular party mind you, just to give a long awaited outlook on a candidate. It is enough to give this country a little bit of hope. We would like a similar comment from VP Gore, if it is available. This was also widely discussed in magazines and TV, e.g. 700 Club, 11/6/00 and George Magazine, Oct 00. It is True.

Actually, the seeds of my decision had been planted the year before, by the Rev. Billy Graham. He visited my family for a summer weekend in Maine. I saw him preach at the small summer church, St. Ann's by the Sea. We all had lunch on the patio overlooking the ocean.�

One evening my Dad asked Billy to answer questions from a big group of family gathered for the weekend. He sat by the fire and talked. And what he said sparked a change in my heart. I don't remember the exact words. It was more the power of his example. The Lord was so clearly reflected in his gentle and loving demeanor.�

The next day we walked and talked at Walker's Point, and I knew I was in the presence of a great man. He was like a magnet; I felt drawn to seek something different. He didn't lecture or admonish; he shared warmth and concern. Billy Graham didn't make you feel guilty; he made you feel loved. Over the course of that weekend, Rev. Graham planted a mustard seed in my soul, a seed that grew over the next year. He led me to the path, and I began walking. It was the beginning of a change in my life.�

I had always been a "religious" person, had regularly attended church, even taught Sunday School and served as an altar boy. But that weekend my faith took on a new meaning. It was the beginning of a new walk where I would commit my heart to Jesus Christ. I was humbled to learn that God sent His Son to die for a sinner like me. I was comforted to know that through the Son, I could find God's amazing grace, a grace that crosses every border, every barrier and is open to everyone. Through the love of Christ's life, I could understand the life changing powers of faith.�

When I returned to Midland, I began reading the Bible regularly. Don Evans talked me into joining him and another friend, Don Jones, at a men's community Bible study. The group had first assembled the year before, in the spring of 1984, at the beginning of the downturn in the energy industry. Midland was hurting. A lot of people were looking for comfort and strength and direction. A couple of men started the Bible study as a support group, and it grew.�

By the time I began attending, in the fall of 1985, almost 120 men would gather. We met in small discussion groups of ten or twelve, then joined the larger group for full meetings. Don Jones picked me up every week for the meetings. I remember looking forward to them. My interest in reading the Bible grew stronger and stronger, and the words became clearer and more meaningful. We studied Acts, the story of the Apostles building the Christian Church, and next year, the Gospel of Luke. The preparation for each meeting took several hours, reading the Scripture passages and thinking through responses to discussion questions.�

I took it seriously, with my usual touch of humor. Laura and I were active members of the First Methodist Church of Midland, and we participated in many family programs, including James Dobson's Focus on the Family series on raising children.�

As I studied and learned, Scripture took on greater meaning, and I gained confidence and understanding in my faith. I read the Bible regularly. Don Evans gave me the "one-year" Bible, a Bible divided into 365 daily readings, each one including a section from the New Testament, the Old Testament, Psalms, and Proverbs. I read through that Bible every other year. During the years in between, I pick different chapters to study at different times. I have also learned the power of prayer.�

I pray for guidance. I do not pray for earthly things, but for heavenly things, for wisdom and patience and understanding. My faith gives me focus and perspective. It teaches humility. But I also recognize that faith can be misinterpreted in the political process. Faith is an important part of my life. I believe it is important so I live my faith, not flaunt it.�

America is a great country because of our religious freedoms. It is important for any leader to respect the faith of others. That point was driven home when Laura and I visited Israel in 1998. We had traveled to Rome to spend Thanksgiving with our daughter, who was attending a school program there, and spent three days in Israel on the way home.�

It was an incredible experience. I remember waking up at the Jerusalem Hilton and opening the curtains and seeing the Old City before us, the Jerusalem stone glowing gold. We visited the Western Wall and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And we went to the Sea of Galilee and stood atop the hill where Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount. It was an overwhelming feeling to stand in the spot where the most famous speech in the history of the world was delivered, the spot where Jesus outlined the character and conduct of a believer and gave his disciples and the world the beatitudes, the golden rule, and the Lord's Prayer.�

Our delegation included four gentile governors-one Methodist, two Catholics, and a Mormon, and several Jewish-American friends. Someone suggested we read Scripture. I chose to read "Amazing Grace," my favorite hymn. Later that night we all gathered at a restaurant in Tel Aviv for dinner before we boarded our middle-of-night flight back to America. We talked about the wonderful experiences and thanked the guides and government officials who had introduced us to their country. And toward the end of the meal, one of our friends rose to share a story, to tell us how he, a gentile, and his friend, a Jew, had (unbeknownst to the rest of us) walked down to the Sea of Galilee, joined hands underwater, and prayed together, on bended knee. Then out of his mouth came a hymn he had known as a child, a hymn he hadn't thought about in years. He got every word right:�

Now is the time approaching, by prophets long foretold, when all shall dwell together, One Shepherd and one fold. Now Jew and gentile, meeting, from many a distant shore, around an altar kneeling, one common Lord adore.�

Faith changes lives. I know, because faith has changed mine. I could not be governor if I did not believe in a divine plan that supersedes all human plans. Politics is a fickle business. Polls change. Today's friend is tomorrow's adversary. People lavish praise and attention. Many times it is genuine; sometimes it is not. Yet I build my life on a foundation that will not shift.�

My faith frees me. Frees me to put the problem of the moment in proper perspective. Frees me to make decisions that others might not like. Frees me to try to do the right thing, even though it may not poll well.�

The death penalty is a difficult issue for supporters as well as its opponents. I have a reverence for life; my faith teaches that life is a gift from our Creator. In a perfect world, life is given by God and only taken by God. I hope someday our society will respect life, the full spectrum of life, from the unborn to the elderly. I hope someday unborn children will be protected by law and welcomed in life. I support the death penalty because I believe, if administered swiftly and justly, capital punishment is a deterrent against future violence and will save other innocent lives. Some advocates of life will challenge why I oppose abortion yet support the death penalty. To me, it's the difference between innocence and guilt.�

Today, two weeks after Jeb's inauguration, in my church in downtown Austin, Pastor Mark Craig, was telling me that my re-election was the first Governor to win back-to-back, four-year terms in the history of the state of Texas. It was a beginning, not an end. People are starved for faithfulness. He talked of the need for honesty in government. He warned that leaders who cheat on their wives will cheat their country, will cheat their colleagues, will cheat themselves. Pastor Craig said that America is starved for honest leaders. He told the story of Moses, asked by God to lead his people to a land of milk and honey. Moses had a lot of reasons to shirk the task. As the Pastor told it, Moses' basic reaction was, "Sorry, God, I'm busy. I've got a family. I've got sheep to tend. I've got a life. Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt? The people won't believe me, he protested. I'm not a very good speaker. Oh, my Lord, send, I pray, some other person," Moses pleaded. But God did not, and Moses ultimately did His bidding, leading his people through forty years of wilderness and wandering, relying on God for strength and direction and inspiration. "People are starved for leadership," Pastor Craig said, "starved for leaders who have ethical and moral courage. It is not enough to have an ethical compass to know right from wrong," he argued. "America needs leaders who have the moral courage to do what is right for the right reason. It's not always easy or convenient for leaders to step forward," he acknowledged. "Remember, even Moses had doubts."�

"He was talking to you," my mother later said.�

The pastor was, of course, talking to all of us, challenging each one of us to make the most of our lives, to assume the mantle of leadership and responsibility wherever we find it. He was calling on us to use whatever power we have, in business, in politics, in our communities, and in our families, to do good for the right reason. And his sermon spoke directly to my heart and my life.�

There was no magic moment of decision. After talking with my family during the Christmas holidays, then hearing this rousing sermon, to make most of every moment, during my inaugural church service, I gradually felt more comfortable with the prospect of a presidential campaign. My family would love me, my faith would sustain me, no matter what.�

During the more than half century of my life, we have seen an unprecedented decay in our American culture, a decay that has eroded the foundations of our collective values and moral standards of conduct. Our sense of personal responsibility has declined dramatically, just as the role and responsibility of the federal government have increased.�

The changing culture blurred the sharp contrast between right and wrong and created a new standard of conduct: "If it feels good, do it." and "If you've got a problem, blame somebody else. Individuals are not responsible for their actions," the new culture has said. "We are all victims of forces beyond our control.'' We have gone from a culture of sacrifice and saving to a culture obsessed with grabbing all the gusto. We went from accepting responsibility to assigning blame. As government did more and more, individuals were required to do less and less. The new culture said: ``if people were poor, the government should feed them. If someone had no house, the government should provide one. If criminals are not responsible for their acts, then the answers are not prisons, but social programs.''�

For our culture to change, it must change one heart, one soul, and one conscience at a time. Government can spend money, but it cannot put hope in our hearts or a sense of purpose in our lives. But government should welcome the active involvement of people who are following a religious imperative to love their neighbors through after school programs, child care, drug treatment, maternity group homes, and a range of other services. Supporting these men and women - the soldiers in the armies of compassion - is the next bold step of welfare reform, because I know that changing hearts will change our entire society.�

During the opening months of my presidential campaign, I have traveled our country and my heart has been warmed. My experiences have reinvigorated my faith in the greatness of Americans. They have reminded me that societies are renewed from the bottom up, not the top down. Everywhere I go, I see people of love and faith, taking time to help a neighbor in need. These people and thousands like them are the heart and soul and greatness of America. And I want to do my part.�

Anybody can WRITE something like above, now somebody with money and power and WRITES something like this - why do you believe it? They are only words.

It is action(s) that count. Show me GWB's actions, if he truly cares only about spirtual things, then why doesn't he renounce most of his worldly goods and truly become a peace loving and peace seeking individuals. None of his actions match what he has written.

You say you are a God loving individual and follow the Lord's teachings. Jesus Christ never, and I do mean never, and would never behave as GWB has and a whole slew of supposedly God loving and God fearing people throughout the ages. In my opinion for GWB to say that he is only doing God's work, is blasphemous, truly outrageous.

You cannot preach out of one side of your mouth, and then at the same time out of the other side of your mouth commit to such horrendous actions. For this man to use the good Lord's name in persuit of his and his cronies' ambitions is just too much for me.

Blasphomy indeed.

Weeza, is there an element of faith in the religious right toward GWB ? ..
I mean, the kind of faith where you have it no matter what?
To totally take our President at his word?

This makes me very nervous..coming to realize there are many who refuse to acknowledge so many enourmous and disturbing issues around this administration.

Moderate conservatives voice the same concerns as the left at this point in time..I just don't get the far Right that has seemed to split off into an isolated place.

The sources I mentioned are across the board..including government sources.

The only place one CAN'T find investigative work on major stuff around this man's actions and policies is far Right publications/stations.

There's just allot of dismisal going on.

Mo

The war is in my estimation no evidence of wrongdoing. I happen to believe his decision to go to war was the right thing to do as do many others. Then there's your side of the fence that is critical of that decision. You will not have the last word on whether or not what this President has done is right or wrong. It will take years to determine what the end result for Iraq will be. So,
your comments on this subject are merely your opinion, a subjective one at that.

How can either of you judge this man and what good deeds he may have done to others in his personal life that have not been broadcast about for the world to know. I do know that he's been a faithful husband to Mrs. Bush for 20 some years or more, has a loving family that are strong in their faith, have probrobly been philanthropic with their material blessings and much more.

He and the first lady have brought a much higher degree of dignity to the White House than did Bill Clinton. Talk about immorality!
******************************************************

The President as Philanthropist in Chief

By MARK O'KEEFE

\

American presidents play several roles: chief executive, leader of the free world, preacher in the bully pulpit and, for the last quarter century, philanthropist in chief.

Jimmy Carter began a tradition in 1977 when he made public the documents he and the first lady had sent to the Internal Revenue Service, including the exact amount they claimed in charitable deductions. Although disclosure is not required by law, every president since has followed the April practice, providing Americans a detailed view of what the family living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue gives.

Using the most common measure of generosity -- donations as a percentage of adjusted gross income -- President Bush and his wife, Laura, with whom he filed jointly, gave away 10.2 percent ($82,700) of what they earned in 2001, according to a statement released last week by the White House. That's considered generous by almost anyone's standards, even though it falls far short of the record 61.8 percent ($818,803) that Bush's father and mother gave in 1991.

"This current president is not only talking the talk but walking the walk," said Peter Shiras, senior vice president at The Independent Sector, a coalition of major charities and foundations.

Presidential giving rarely makes headlines, unless it's embarrassing.

Ronald Reagan's 1982 tax return revealed that he had claimed only 2.1 percent of his income in charitable deductions, even though Reagan had publicly stated that he believed in tithing -- giving a tenth of annual income.

During his years in office, Reagan never met that standard. His most generous year was 1986, when he gave 9.1 percent ($30,487) to charity. The president tried to explain: "I have for a number of years done some of that giving in ways that are not tax deductible with regard to individuals that are being helped."

Twenty years later, Reagan's relative stinginess does not appear to have tarnished his legacy.

"The subject matter of charitable giving has mattered not a whit to the public and it has mattered not a whit to historians," said Tim Blessing, a nationally respected presidential historian who chairs the history department at Alvernia College in Reading, Pa.

Nonetheless, presidential giving does make an impact in philanthropic circles, said Shiras, "particularly when you have a president like this one (George W. Bush), who is really promoting charitable giving and volunteering."

Consistent with his theme of boosting faith-based charities, Bush's philanthropy had a religious flavor last year, with money going to his Austin, Texas, church, Tarrytown United Methodist, along with Evergreen Chapel at Camp David, Md., and Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Laura Bush's alma mater.

The president and first lady also contributed to a variety of funds related to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The exact amounts and names of the funds were not made public.

Richard Cizik, vice president for government affairs at the National Association of Evangelicals, said Bush's giving "is the topic of buzz" among the church-going people he knows.

"The impression is that the man is the same publicly and privately," Cizik said. "In other words, when he talks about compassionate conservatism, he isn't just talking the message, he's living it."

Evangelicals, as well as other faith groups, promote tithing to a person's local church or combination of other charities. A White House spokesman could not say whether Bush, who often is described as an evangelical, believes in the religious principle of tithing 10 percent of income.

Carter and Bill Clinton, both Southern Baptists and evangelicals, were relatively generous givers as presidents, with their giving never falling below 5 percent of adjusted gross income.

The share the typical American donates to charity has been relatively stable, just under 2 percent.

The Independent Sector promotes 5 percent as generous. Reagan is the only president to fall below that standard since 1977, and he did so four times.

Some of the most generous years for presidents came after the president, his wife or pet wrote a best-selling book, with royalties donated to charity.

It happened in 1991, when a literacy foundation received the net royalties -- $789,176 -- from a book ostensibly written by the White House dog, Millie. The United Negro College Fund received the royalties of a book George H.W. Bush wrote, even though that volume netted less than one percent of what Millie earned. The two donations helped push the Bushes' total to 61.8 percent of their income that year.

Similarly, charitable donations in 1996 and 1997 from Hillary Clinton's "It Takes a Village" increased the Clintons' giving to 57.2 and 48 percent of their adjusted gross income those years.

Perhaps the most significant philanthropic effort by a president occurred before tax returns were made public. In 1938, President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who suffered from polio, launched a foundation to fight the disease, with funds coming from money made at Roosevelt's annual birthday balls.

Thousands of Americans joined him in the effort, eventually called "The March of Dimes," because a dime was all that many could contribute during the Depression. Those dimes raised millions of dollars for research leading to the vaccine that prevents polio.

"A number of historians have credited this effort by FDR as being one of the major philanthropy landmarks in American history," said Michele King, spokeswoman for The March of Dimes, which now focuses on preventing birth defects. "Roosevelt showed so many Americans that they, too, could be philanthropists."

(Mark O'Keefe can be contacted at [email protected])

I'm talking about George Bush behaving immorally in his position as Commander in Chief..
you are talking about him as a person..
I know nothing of his personal life other than what is presented..
what many of us care about is what he is doing as President, both here and abroad.

He and the first lady have brought a much higher degree of dignity to the White House than did Bill Clinton. Talk about immorality

Bill Clinton, as so many Bush supporters love to point to..did something immoral on his persoanl life..yes.
He didn't bring this country to War based on lies, and keep us there based on more lies, and was not responsible for needless and destruction (other than Monica's dress), death, desruction of environment, domestic demise..ect, ect, ect.

If he (Clinton) was considered to be impeached for lying about infidelity..
what should be done to GW for his lies..
the ones he tiold us boldfaced, and continues to..(?)

See what I mean? This sounds like faith without reason.

I'm not talking about Iraq as a peace experiment that we won't know the outcome for years in..I'm talking about what the Bush admin has already done.

Not just the War, either..
there are many, many posts here that show these things (in fact)..they just get dismissed by Bush supporters, immediately.

Mo