Topic: I got this in a Email :WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS?
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I WOULD LIKE TO MEET THIS LADY
The lady that wrote this letter is Pam Foster of Pamela Foster and Associates in Atlanta. She's been in business since 1980 doing interior design and home planning. She recently wrote a letter to a family member serving in Iraq Read it!
WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS?
"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001? Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania? Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?
And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was"desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet? Well, I don't. I don't care at all.
I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.
I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia.
I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling, slashed throat.
I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.
I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.
I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.
In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.
When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.
When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.
When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.
And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and --
you guessed it, I could not have said this any better myself!
If you agree with this view point, pass this on to all your e-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior! If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great country.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Hey Tree,
I passed it on.
~Missy
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
I am not a member of any religious group.
The 'Islamic people' did not bring war to our shores - a few people did, who happened to be muslims. The few people responsible for that particular attack are the people to go to war against, not the entire Muslim population.
That is very ignorant and unfair, I think. In fact, living in a largely white/christian country with a pretty large muslim population - and being seriously white myself, I am very aware of how the MAJORITY of muslims do NOT want to be associated with any such violence/war etc. And, they are suffering as a consequence of what A FEW did in the name of MANY.
Should any particular religious or ethnic group of people be retalliated against/or killed as punishment for what a few people of their ethnic/or (loosely termed/connected) religious group did? The people you speak of do not represent the majority of the group, but with messages like the one above, I would think it will encourage more hatred towards those who are innocent but judged guilty, by such a message, by association.
Where is that Osama Bin Laden anyway, the one that Bush promised to 'smoke out' from his hidey-hole? Surely, our intelligence is 21st century enough to do what promised?
DLL
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm concerned about this culture of hate that has been borne out of the tradgedies of our times.
I believe some of that was/is fostered by the tremendous amount of propaganda in this country.. mainly coming out of the White House. Accumulated facts and what has unraveled dispute much of what they have said by now, so I cannot understand the clinging to hate and racism.
but moreover it is a misinformed, anger based response.
It's frightening, and I have to say this kind of view is no better than Islamic extremist groups that think all Americans are pigs who deserve to die in the name of Allah.
Both ends of this spectrum are dangerous and deadly in my view. To our troops and to ourselves.
DLL has a good point.. there are many haneous acts perpetrated by extremists in the name of a group or culture, but by and large should not be used to condemn an entire race or creed... or to condone the killing and torturing of innocents...
After all, there have been several Christian movements, some of which was the biggest and bloodiest murder of millions.. all through history there are many examples of violence and 'Terrorism' .. pretty much from all religious groups (except Buddhists or I think Hindus )
There are Muslims around the globe, and in the Middle East.. who abhor these acts. The vast, vast majority do.
I also feel that the torture issue is a very serious one.
The fact that it is not only comdoned but ordered by this administration is beyond comprehension.. but all things regarding this War have taken us back centuries.
Doesn't anyone consider the state of mind and the suffering instilled into the poor soldiers involved in these acts?
That's where my mind goes, as well as the War crimes of this administration, and the abuse that is by and large not laid on the Terrorists who attacked us. Osama is probably layung low and driving a cab in the East Village for now.. Terror cells globally are expanding and have acts by our government to point to as the best recruitment of more of the generation witnessing the death of scores of thousands of innocents.
I have never read a more frightening piece of writing.. because it seems many feel this way if it's become a 'chain letter'.
I hope more folks are looking deeper! These attitudes are very dangerous.
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
It never ceases to amaze me...
tree's post explicitly states that it is radicals and extremists that this person is angry with....
Not the whole muslim religion....
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Actually, the first line - and first impression - says:
"Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shoresPosts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You see, not only does Mo not realize who caused 911, but she has sympathy for them. That's evident in position on the war on terror....even her position on leaving the Iranian's alone "so they'll behave".
This letter has nothing to do with anything but the reality of what's happening, and the fact that the far left can't see it and has sympathy for them is extremely frightening.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
nothing to do with sympathy for extremists who attack and kill innocents -- that goes for those orchestrating these kinds of acts from the United Sates or in the Middle East, (or Africa, Palastine or anywhere else for that matter....)
my comments have to do with the dangerous and faulty thinking that comes out of the culture of hate on both sides.
It's concern that blind hatred never yeilds effective resolve. That a more intelligent handling of a very serious problem is required in order to begin to resolve it.
What's gone on in Iraq is well prooven to have nothing to do with 911, and has only fostered greater threat.
Just because we've killed more innocent Iraquis by our administrators command, dishonesty, and miserably failed planning, ect.. just because more of them have died (like 30-40 times more) .. doesn't mean we are safer.
Quite the contrary.
My point is the population needs to educate themselves and look away from solely White House messages, and those who echo them..
long enough to take an objective view -- just as other populations must as well. Isn't that the core ideal of 'democratic republic' ?
The above sentiments just feed the culture of hate and ignorance which breeds violence that not only won't solve conflict, or serious problems like Terrorism.. it will only fan the flames.
To state that that means I have sympathy for Terrorists ignores great deal..and is along the same line of exclusionary thinking. No sympathy for Terrorists -- just a dire need for effective handling and intelligent focus by the American government. Honesty and forthcoming to at least some reasonable degree would help as well.
I also didn't say we should 'leave the Iranians alone so they will behave' .. but I get the sence that you don't actually read my posts.
--- I suppose Americans are wising up despite the limited media releases, since so many things have been so bad of late it's hard to ignore...
Since all the indictments, Katrina, the War results.. and the public uncovering of the administration's manupilation of intelligence going into Iraq..
64% of Americans question Bush's (and his admin's) integrity .. his approval rating is down to mainly his 'ulterior' agenda base.
Most moderates and some further to the right have gone public with dissapointment and/or anger...and at the very least tough questions.
The concerns ain't just 'far left' anymore..
Mo
[ 06. November 2005, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
All this left right nonsense is just ridiculous. Especially, when looking in on the fishbowl from the wider world.
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
this is the most ignorant infuriating thing i have ever read.
my eyes spring hot tears, my heart aches raw and i can't even begin to formulate a coherent response.
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
yeah liver I read the first line too...
But I read the whole text which qualifies the opening statements and zero's in on the extremeists,radicals and zealots.
Furthermore the guys that rammed those planes were saudi arabians...who have been our supposed allies over there since the Shah back when most here were not out of diapers...being saudi's is'nt the reason they did it...being muslim extremists is more likely...
The children over there are schooled to hate americans or anyone that isn't a believer in the one tru God Allah...just like hitler youth...
How can little children hate us so much unless they are taught to hate us...like the extremist groups here in the states...like skinheads and the klan...
A line must be drawn or we'll all be bowing to the east.......it was'nt when the embassy was blown up or the barraks with the marines nor even when they attacked a Navy vessel...all of which are acts of war...
Wake up and smell the coffee.......this is war and those that don't see it are looking thru rose colored glasses. Having been in war I hate it...however, until mankind stops being stupid in general we'll always have it.
So maybe Irag and it's leader did'nt have WMD's or did'nt have a hand in 911... I'm sure they had a hand in some of the other attacks...especially on the Turks and some of their own people....
Go Grunts!! And Doggies...and swabbies....Hooray America...I Love you right or wrong.....zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nonsense, nonsense Mo. Also, when asked how you would deal with the Iranian crisis with nukes and their threats to Isreal, your response was to back off and leave Iran alone.....as if we're the ones forcing them to be bad. LOL. You said it, not me. Please be consistent.
I have zero respect for the Koran, and anyone that gets violent over steping on this book or whatever, is so insecure it's pathetic. Must not feel very sure about it if they're shaken so much by a material piece of paper. Personally I despise the Koran and everything it stands for....how women are treated, how infidels are to be treated, etc. If a Koran was cheaper than toilet paper, I'd stock up a six month supply.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
robi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5547
posted
Violence as a way of achieving justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
and the words of Dr. King have never been more true. thank you, robi. how desperately we need someone like him today.
quote:Originally posted by robi: Violence as a way of achieving justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
And if we applied that to everything in the past, we would be speaking German and have no freedom right now. Violence is necessary sometimes, and if you don't believe so, be lucky that there are people around you willing to protect you for you.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
24 - what exactly can you put forth to support your retort? 64% of Americans now question GWB's integrity.. therefore question the exact rhetoric you spew.. so, by now -- after all these years...can you justify, with specifics..how we (and the Iraqis) are protected as you state -- and the stance you take? I think it's about time.
Extremist imperialistic and violent actions can be derived from the Bible as well as the Koran..
(as a side note, I doubt you have read the Koran based on your post -- for you understand it as little as you do Dr. King -- and if you have read the Koran, you fail to note it's merits as well as the violence and the subservient references to women written in the Bible.. which if taken literally are, shall we say - also less than liberal..if taken quite literally.. also to be noted, women in Iraq had a great deal more worth and power even under SADDAM (as they themselves state!) than they do under the curent Constitution supported by the U.S. and borne out of the War !!)
As far as violence in the name of the Bible..the Crusades come to mind..and (just one example)some Christian evangalistic views today regarding the people of the Middle East, and what they are worth.. (as eluded to in this thread) yet, at times it strangely turns -- and the War is then also supported under the guise of 'saving them' so then they they are worthless unless 'Democratized' and/or 'Christianized' .. as Doctor Phil would say:
'How's that working for ya??'
The insurgency is stronger and death runs consistant..moreso in recent months.
Which is it folks?? Are we demolishing until they are reformed to your liking -- or saving them? Be honest....
Violence is at very specific times necessary, but ONLY when the calling is clear and with honest motivation, planning and and results. U.S. violence in the Middle East holds none of these criteria.
As far as extremism in either religion..do those views then render the entire book no better than toilet paper? Is hatred and violence any better coming from 'your side' rather than the other?
This had been prooven over and over again throughout history.
Hatred and violence destroy all hope of progression and the sufferers by and large are the innocents who do not partake in either.. as well as the young men and women discarged and sent to death with lies...told they are 'protecting God and honor'.. the leaders on both sides are evil.
The War on Iraq us documented as being conspired well before they even went to Congress with the manipulated 'intelligence'.. and my point was...this admin is gearing up to do the same in Iran and Syria.
THAT kind of action is what needs to stop. It's criminal in a World order sort of manner.
Imperialism. Operating on further imperialistic action with Iran or any other country puts us and the World in danger of a nuclear War.
Period.
Go back to my post on Iran and re-read it. While you're at it, look at the facts surounding Iraq and the unConstoitutional operations.. seems everyone outside of some 35% of Americans, as well as the rest of the World -- have already done that.
Mo
[ 07. November 2005, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
robi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5547
posted
Ya know ...... I realy can't argue politics, nor do I care to. I do belive that violence is not the way.
I belive the way is to help and seek understanding of one another. That inludes our famailies, neighbors, those of different beliefs, religons, countries.
Violence an only eventually lead to mass destruction. It is not that way .....
If you feel you must argue for killing and violence I am sorry .........
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
We're not safer since the war huh?
When since 911 have we been attacked?
Other countries have but we have not! That ought to tell you something.
If you guys that knock the USA were living in almost any other country that isn't democratic...you would'nt have a head to talk out of long...
The Koran...does not preach violence unless violence is visited upon muslims. Maybe you ought to read it again or for the first time.
Perhaps the embargo or trade restrictions placed on IRAQ caused too many people to go hungry get sick and die...perhaps that's what Osama was trying to preach to us. It was the world trade center...hmmmm...could that have had any significance?? Ya think! Perhaps Osama wanted saddam out cuz he was trading oil for something other than food.... Now that we did it...he's leaving us alone...
Possible just possible.....it would be nice to live as Jesus did and love all even enemies... I fear we(mankind) has'nt figured that out yet...and unless and untill it does worldwide I'm glad I'm an American...
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
I really take offence at the insinuation that anyone (who is American) but, who disagrees with the way things are going right now, is anti-American or does not 'love being American'.
Perhaps it is for the very reason that we are NOT anti-American that we oppose the way our American leader(s) are handling the situation.
We - in the WEST - not just America - there is more to the world than just America are not safer now. If anything we are less safe, because of what has/is happening in Iraq, more anti-American terrorists will be made.
So, is the solution to making more terrorists - make more war?
I have a sneaking suspicion that GWB doesn't ask himself 'what would Jesus do'? But, of course, he does claim that God speaks to him, which is interesting, because other people who claim God spoke to them and then proceeded to kill someone, and I don't mean killing terrorists in retaliation or self-defence, I mean killing innocent people who are not terrorists, regardless of their religion, is usually safely locked up somewhere.
I suppose if we just go to war with just about anyone, there won't be anyone left on the planet and at least it will be peaceful and a fresh start.
Alternatively, we will have a world (we already kind of do) that is not very nice to leave our children [in].
I agree that the Bible is not exactly an advertisement for women's lib either. Find me a religion that is.......doubt there is one.
Because I have said what I've said, does NOT mean that I love terrorists, or defend their actions. Of couse, I do NOT. My question is only - are WE doing the right thing in response to terrorist attacks? What is the right thing? I am not sure. But, I don't think we're doing it now.
DLL
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
robi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5547
posted
Just for the record ........... I amglad I amanAmerican and I do not supprt what our contry is doing right now.
If you think the lack of medical care we experience and the war for oil are unrelated you have your head in the sand. These are both fueled (no pun intended) by the greed of the rich and powerful. That includes our dear president.
robi
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
I know, I know.... I'm a brat, hence my name lol
I still don't understand how one person writing what They feel about a situation, always turns into a battle over here. It's the same old same old....
I haven't been in off topic for months, and I've only been back about a week, but I knew for sure who would have an issue with this post. lol!
I happen to agree with some of what this person wrote and I passed it on...not as a "chain letter", but as an interesting take on how this person, views this situation.
I can't sit here and say that the author of this piece was right or wrong...how can I judge someone else's opinions? LOL
Just my 2 cents...
~LymeBrat
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey LB.. aren't topics here open for discussion? If not, I would assume they wouldn't be posted. The topic of Iraq in particular is important to all of us, as what is happening now will effect pur future and generations to come. It's not a matter of telling someone their 'opinions are wrong'. These kinds of (dangerous) messages are everyones business, I should think.. since we are all profoundly impacted by what is happening.
Tony Z ..Osama himself had declared the attacks are revenge for suffering inflicted in the Middle East over many years by the U.S. and it's allies.
That's exactly how the extremists are interpreting/explioting the Koran -- I agree.
This rhetoric statement 'It (this War) is working, see...we haven't ben attacked' isn't a strong arguement..
London and Madrid being attacked should be of great concern.. biological warfare .. which is difficult to initially detect, should also be of great concern..
Our government is failing miserably in protecting our shores..and we've seen Homeland Security at work recently and they are less than effective.
AlQaeda is notorious for having great patience and planning in these things. They revel in that...they are in no big rush, and don't go off shooting from the hip like cowboys. They do not mind waiting and taking a long time to plan. They don't operate like military.
AGAIN -- the Bush administration and it's supporters are lacking in perception and understanding of the Terrorist groups that attacked us here, as well as Middle Easterners relations, interests and views.
How can they successfully fight an enemy they do not understand...not to mention one that is no where near Bagdad?
Al Qaeda is a strong global network now, where that was not the case before the War. This makes things considerably less 'safe'. Each day in Iraq remaining on the path we are on now, our administration unwilling to concede there have been major mistakes made and how then to fix them..each day, each week, month, fuels their resolve.
Here's an article from this past summer that goes into specifics regarding whether we are 'safer' because of this War..just because another 911 has not occured here yet.
(also if you follow polls, the polls regarding the War and Bush's integrity have plummeted in the past few months.)
*************************************************
washingtonpost.com
Iraq War Hasn't Made United States Safer
Polls Indicate Americans Agree
By Terry M. Neal washingtonpost.com Staff Writer Monday, July 18, 2005
Americans are willing to spare no expense to ensure their safety. Thus the bill for the war in Iraq, which is soaring well into the $200 billions, would not be an issue at all if most people felt the essential policy -- making America safer -- was being met.
But apparently, fewer and fewer Americans believe this is the case. And this is becoming an even greater problem for President Bush, whose reputation has taken a hit. In the latest Gallup poll, taken shortly after terrorists struck London this month, the number of people who say the war in Iraq was not worth it climbed to 53 percent (compared to 44 percent who believe it was). Perhaps more significantly, only 40 percent of Americans think the war has made the United States safer from terrorism, compared to 52 percent who believe it has made America less safe.
These numbers represent an astonishing turn of events from the days leading up to the war through the president's battleship photo-op declaration of victory more than two years ago.
The president was only partly correct that day. America and its allies had won the battle to remove Saddam Hussein. But the war was just getting started.
Meanwhile, Iraq has surged ahead of "economy and growth" as the leading concern among Americans. And approval of the president's handling of Iraq has dropped five points from an already low 44 percent a month ago, compared to 55 percent disapproval, according to a new Wall Street Journal/NBC poll.
The war in Iraq was billed as a war of necessity, an effort to make the nation safer. Even after the justification for war evaporated, many of the president's supporters argued that it accomplished its purpose -- the United States had not been attacked again after 9/11.
The terrorist attacks in London shattered some of that argument. While the United States wasn't attacked, its closest ally, Great Britain, was. And it was attacked in a way that struck home to many Americans, a fact evidenced by the jump in poll numbers of people who say they believe America will be attacked by terrorists in the near future.
So the question is, did Iraq make us safer?
In his best-selling book "America the Vulnerable: How Our Government Is Failing to Protect Us From Terrorism," Stephen Flynn, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and a former U.S. Coast Guard commander, argues essentially that Iraq was a "phony war" based on the president's oft-repeated assertion that America is "fighting the terrorists abroad so we don't have to face them at home."
Every nation, even one as rich as the United States, has finite resources. And America is spending large portions of its resources, both in terms of human and economic capital, fighting a conventional war against a nation-state that does not address America's biggest vulnerability -- its openness to unconventional attacks by terrorists who don't respect borders.
America remains astonishingly vulnerable to attacks from al Qaeda, which has morphed under Bush's watch, from an organization to a worldwide movement, Flynn argues.
"The degree to which the Bush administration is willing to invest in conventional national security spending relative to basic domestic security measures is considerable," Flynn argues in an article he wrote for Foreign Affairs magazine based on his book.
"Although the CIA has concluded that the most likely way weapons of mass destruction (WMD) would enter the United States is by sea, the federal government is spending more every three days to finance the war in Iraq than it has provided over the past three years to prop up the security of all 361 U.S. commercial seaports."
Flynn accuses the administration of a "myopic" focus on conventional military forces at the expense of domestic security. He draws this comparison: "In fiscal year 2005, Congress will give the Pentagon $7.6 billion to improve security at military bases. Meanwhile, the Department of Homeland Security will receive just $2.6 billion to protect all the vital systems throughout the country that sustain a modern society."
I called Flynn this week to ask him if the nation's priorities were so horribly skewed, why hadn't America been attacked again? And perhaps couldn't it be surmised that the terrorists attacked Madrid and London instead of, say Washington or New York, because it was easier to do so?
Flynn argues that this would be an improper conclusion to draw.
Here's the gist of the argument he gave me: Al Qaeda and al Qaeda-inspired terrorists are patient. They seek maximum bang for the buck, so to speak. As they did in Madrid and London, the terrorists build a three-cell unit. The first is the leadership or operations cell. The second is the reconnaissance team, which scouts potential targets for risk and reward. And the third is the action cell, which carries out the attack.
Building this sort of operation can take many years, and the risks are high. And once the action unit attacks, it creates an instant forensics trail that "creates an operational security problem. If you use it for a relatively low-end thing, you put your organization at risk for little gain and you have to start over again."
In London, investigators learned much about the attackers quickly, just as American investigators did after 9/11. It could take the terrorists years to recover in London, as it has in America. But they will be back, Flynn argues, because there will always be enough "angry young men who can possess powerful weapons of destruction" to target a nearly endless supply of soft targets.
Iraq has not changed that equation one bit, Flynn argues. It has only diverted resources from the more pragmatic approach of targeting and hunting down terrorists around the world and, even more important, bolstering domestic security.
Flynn does not argue that every soft target could ever be protected by the government. But he does say that the administration has done shockingly little to prioritize threats and protect such resources as nuclear plants, domestic military bases, the electric grid, the water supply and private-industry chemical plants near major metropolitan areas.
Flynn is not antiwar. Afghanistan was a proper target, he said, because terrorists were running their operations there and the government was protecting them.
The U.S. administration and its hawks are stuck in a "state-centric perspective, cold war idea that deterrence is about overwhelming power and offense. But that has nothing to do with the overwhelming reality of this threat."
In his Foreign Affairs article, Flynn wrote that "the United States is fighting the war it prepared for in the twentieth century, rather than the one that is being waged upon it by al Qaeda ... the Pentagon is executing its long-standing forward defense strategy, which involves leapfrogging ahead of U.S. borders and waging combat on the turf of U.S. enemies or allies. Meanwhile, protecting the rear -- the American nation itself -- remains largely outside the scope of national security even though the September 11 attacks were launched from the United States on targets within the United States."
Bush's critics argue that Iraq was made politically possible by the natural urge to punish someone for the travesty of 9/11. Iraq might have sated an emotional response, but it did little to address the pragmatic problem of how to make America safer.
For a long time, many Americans believed that Iraq was directly involved in 9/11, and that the war was a part of the effort to vanquish the terrorists who attacked us that day. The fact that few people believe that today may have much to do with the president's declining popularity and the declining confidence in his honesty.
� 2005 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive
***note.. 64% question the honesty at this time, and the investigations have not even been made public yet.
there is no evidance we are safer, and a great deal more that terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda are thriving around the globe.
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Everyone is going to have THEIR TAKE on this email/chain letter thingy.
Therefore, some of those people will read it as I have, which is that it is very racist (basically that it's OK to slaughter anyone of the same race or religion as a group of terrorists) - and going to fuel a fire that can only lead to hell for all of us!
I don't know what possesed me to come over to Off Topic again. It's pointless and probably just causes us more stress which isn't good for Lymies.
DLL
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Mo,
Of course all topics are open for discussion..did I imply otherwise? I didn't mean it to sound like that, sorry if that's how you took it.
All I said/meant was I liked some of what this author wrote, and I don't think I or others need a lecture from those who don't.
It just seems too bad that when someone posts or agrees with something that was posted here.... (that isn't popular with other posters ), they get a lengthy post in return, outlining all the bad and negative in the world.
Or asked to take a deeper look at things...implying that if we did, we'd see things differently..or in other words the way they see them.
It's like posters who do this, think that those of us who agree with anything this author wrote, must be unaware of what is going on....
Well guess what, we aren't. We are very aware, we just disagree. Does that make you right and me wrong? Or me right and you wrong??? NO, it just means we see things differently.
I am very aware of what is going on in the world and I still agree with some things this author wrote..and golly gee wiz...I even have a college education and I'm a teacher too..go figure. LOL!
~Missy
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think you're misunderstanding LB.. and yes, I assume neither you or Tree wrote this proposed chain letter but even if you did..
it's a discussion.. so folks put something out there.. and then {perhaps) back it up with ideas or considerations..
then someone else may agree or counter that..
again, hopefully..with some ideas or considerations, info.. or not.. it's up to them.
I now feel I have to again clarify that because I post information, concerns, ect that does not agree with the topic post header.. and go into reasons why.. I must clarify I am not giving a lecture, or saying you are unaware..those who are aware, please discuss! That's about all I am looking for. OK??
I am posting questions and information..in this case objecting strongly to these views as dangerous to all of us, and I posted why I believe that.
If you think they aren't..you can post why..or not.. totally up to you..
but please do not criticize or twist my reason for posting, or others here who have posted in oitrage at this piece. I (nor they) are commenting on anyone personally.. (dejavou we've been through this before, lol)
It's not a personal dig to counter a view and press for justification, or even some thought..on a view .. especially one as strong and IMO dangerous as this one --
These views and the subject of War is important to all of us, and on topic. We are all free to post whatever we wish.. so long as it's on topic...not on eachother for posting whatever we decide to.
I have no interest in discussing anything but the topics themselves..
[ 07. November 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, for some it's a discussion. For others it's a lecture on their mighty tall soapbox. And the other thing that's funny is that some seem to think that whoevers posts the most words in a post:
1. Has the most facts (even though it's some left wing hack job EDITORIAL, not hard news).
2. Is the smartest.
3. Has more time and attention to convince the lost.
4. Can wear down those that have different views.
5. Thinks that everyone actually has time to read for hours.
6. Thinks that everyone actually does read for hours.
7. Thinks that everyone is excited to read their next novel.
8. Thinks that their next novel will be effective in converting the lost.
9. Knows that most people don't have the time to respond to every single point they make in their novel.
10. Thinks that if they have the last word on any point (nobody responds to it), they're automatically right.
In reality (and what they teach in business school), those that make their points clear and concise, to the point, easy to read and understand, are the ones that are most effective in getting people to read their words, and most effective in changing a point of view......or at least causing someone to re-think their position.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ah..and there we go, right on cue.. No address on topic, just personal.. Hey -- isn't this spot on the issue just raised??
Interesting to note is who will not have a problem with this outright accost..
clearly a party line exception and that is a shame, seems there are different expectations for diferent 'party's' -- at least in the past -- I sicerely hope that we have grown and that has changed (??)
Afeterall, LB, you simply posted that you were endorsing at least part of this chain letter by passing it on -- your perogative surely -- and I addressed the e-mail and challanged it's content...not you..
yet my posts are deemed 'nonsence' above..
I have no problem with that, but I just wanted to point that out in light of your concerns that folks not be denegrated -- Seems caling my post nonsence might be in that relm? I dunno ---
.. also, none of the 'meat' of any of the counter posts has even been acknowledged for the past several entries simply the jabbing ensues... that is a shame folks..
these isues are way bigger than any one of us.
in any event..
trying to bring this one back in the vicinity of topic..because anything else is useless banter IMO..
Seems the Dems are getting up off their butts to join in investigative questioning of this admin as the vast majority of public opinion demands --
Let's just talk Iraq --- please? If convictions exist and hold water, I would think there would be plenty to say on topic, why the de-railing of the thread??:
Democrats issue demands for Iraq intelligence probe 08 Nov 2005 00:00:00 GMT
Source: Reuters
WASHINGTON, Nov 7 (Reuters) - Democrats on Monday demanded that the Senate interview key government officials and exercise subpoena power while examining how the Bush administration used prewar Iraq intelligence in the run-up to the 2003 invasion.
As a bipartisan task force prepared for a week-long series of meetings on the intelligence question, Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said the administration should be prepared to turn over important documents to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
"Now that the Republicans have agreed to conduct an investigation, the next step is making sure the right questions are answered," said the Nevada Democrat.
But Republicans accuse their Democratic adversaries of using the Iraq war for political gain by suggesting that President George W. Bush and other administration officials may have misused intelligence to make their case for war.
"The Democrat leaders' latest accusation that the administration has manipulated intelligence and exaggerated the threat is nothing more than an effort to use the war in Iraq for political gain, and that is shameful," Republican Sen. John Cornyn of Texas said in a floor speech.
The Senate intelligence committee completed the first phase of its review of Iraq intelligence in July 2004 when it issued a scathing report about the quality of information that claimed Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. No such weapons have ever been found.
At the time, lawmakers promised a second phase to examine other issues including whether Bush administration officials misused intelligence to make its case for war. But that segment of the review has not been completed. ((after all this time))
Last week, Democrats accused Republicans of stalling tactics and imposed a rare closed session to force the majority to complete the review.
The Senate set up a bipartisan task force of six senators to look into the second phase of the investigation in meetings that begin on Tuesday. The panel must report on the progress of the investigation by Nov. 14.
Republicans say the second phase of the investigation was already proceeding before last week's political confrontation. But Democrats accuse their Republican colleagues of trying to prevent a full investigation of the issues, saying that as recently as two weeks ago, an intelligence committee agenda for the remainder of 2005 showed no meetings on the probe.
Task force members including Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, the intelligence panel's Republican chairman, will to try to find common ground between the parties on how the remaining probe should be conducted.
[ 08. November 2005, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Yo read into it whatever you want....you will and have anyway... All I said was I am glad to be an American...me I am glad I am an American...it was a statement not an accusation....
So having not been attacked isn't a strong argument??? Then what is? Forget I asked...I feel relatively safe...
Yeah I know we'll probably be attacked in the future...it's the same tactics we used in the revolutionary war...but gosh...we(the present military minds) don't understand their enemy... Come on now...
Whenever we are attacked again it will probably be when a democrat is in the office...it happened before but Clinton was too busy with his head paige...LOL to do anything about it...
It does'nt matter folks...like I said, if you remember...we got rid of the Dems and elected a bunch of republicans...what ground have we gained??? Not much!
We have to send a message to Capitol Hill...enough is enough...we need a third party not tied to anything or anyone....the little guy...the poor and working poor(middle class)...need a voice... Mo you keep asking for material to validate what we think and say...we don't need it...we read and am aware of both sides...we simply don't post it cuz we know it won't help to change your mind...we're too sick to bother...we have our own opinions and voice them in a concise manner...
Most lymies can't read and comprehend and digest all that print anyway...I know it nauseates me whenever I try to read a lot on here...not because you're nauseating...it's just a fact of lyme neuro brain life.....
perhaps ignoring it all would be better... See brat not much has changed...you're right SSDD.
[ 08. November 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Yo read into it whatever you want....you will and have anyway... All I said was I am glad to be an American...me I am glad I am an American...it was a statement not an accusation....
Good. But, it seemed to infer that those that disagree with your stance are not.
So having not been attacked isn't a strong argument??? Then what is? Forget I asked...I feel relatively safe...
It's a good reason to defend yourself (attack back), yes, but in our case we did not go to Iraq to attack those that attacked us. There was and is no proven connection there.
Yeah I know we'll probably be attacked in the future...it's the same tactics we used in the revolutionary war...but gosh...we(the present military minds) don't understand their enemy... Come on now...
Whenever we are attacked again it will probably be when a democrat is in the office...it happened before but Clinton was too busy with his head paige...LOL to do anything about it...
Again, this is not just about the USA or Democrat/Republican.
It does'nt matter folks...like I said, if you remember...we got rid of the Dems and elected a bunch of republicans...what ground have we gained??? Not much!
Again, this is not just about the USA or Democrat/Republican.
We have to send a message to Capitol Hill...enough is enough...we need a third party not tied to anything or anyone....the little guy...the poor and working poor(middle class)...need a voice...
Wow, I agree!!
Mo you keep asking for material to validate what we think and say...we don't need it...we read and am aware of both sides...we simply don't post it cuz we know it won't help to change your mind...we're too sick to bother...we have our own opinions and voice them in a concise manner...
Most lymies can't read and comprehend and digest all that print anyway...I know it nauseates me whenever I try to read a lot on here...not because you're nauseating...it's just a fact of lyme neuro brain life.....
perhaps ignoring it all would be better... See brat not much has changed...you're right SSDD
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
In my opinion as well, this has long since blown past a Dem/Repub issue.
It's way bigger than that!
Tony Z.. I agree with this as well:
We have to send a message to Capitol Hill...enough is enough...we need a third party not tied to anything or anyone....the little guy...the poor and working poor(middle class)...need a voice...
Except that the War is the most pressing issue for all Americans, backed by mounds of other problems, IMO that's the most critical, of course.
No, I don't believe it is a strong arguement in support of the Iraq War that we haven't been attacked here since 911 (that we know of).. based on the reasons I stated above.
There's just allot more to consider.
Oh, and to those copmplaining about posted articles.. if you aren't interested in reading articles or considering their content, you do have that handy dandy scroll button at your disposal
I have to say there are allot more users/readers on the forum that might like to read some stuff.. some people also have trouble opening links due to dial up issues, whatever.. But again, feel free to just skip my stuff if you aren't interested in discussion.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Well now that we agree on something...
Please tell me just what the big picture is that I am missing?
if it's not a rep,Dem, or USA thing...please tell me what it is...
What is is?
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
I received the same above email forward message last night from a friend (who has since followed that email up with an apology to all the recipients after having re-read an thought about it). One of the other recipients of the email replied to the sender as follows, I have changed the names for their privacy.
"Wrapping one's self in a cloak of patriotism while lowering the standards of ethical humanitarian behavior (and breaching the Geneva Convention) to match or outdo the fanatics who oppose our occupation of their country after waging an illegal invasion of their sovereign nation
(screwed up as it was, Iraq had no proven connection to the 9-11 attack) just proves the effectiveness of the Neocon (operative syllable "CON") propaganda machine (whose actions have been called illegal by the GAO (Government Accountability Office).
Frankly this message gave me quite a stomach ache after having viewed the Rainews documentary aired in Italy yesterday (seems like the reality is that these people in Fallujah who were "melted" by the US offensive there last year were the result of our new improved "napalm", MK77, not white phosphorous as is rumored).
What was the reason our esteemed administration used to lie our way into their coveted war before the UN? Weapons of mass destruction?
Well it seems the pot is as black as the kettle. Our anger and frustration should be directed at these lying, war profiteering bunch-of-scumbags orchestrating this travesty on the world stage.
I am currently ashamed of America's behavior and this administration does not represent me. Now that's something to ponder!
Wow John, I hope that you don't actually support the sentiment layed out in that piece of crap you sent me.
I'm sorry if I sound hostile right now, but you REALLY touched a nerve that is absolutely raw right now.
I am currently strongly considering my continued residence in this country anymore, because what America represents today, I can't support.
I am scared to travel internationally with a US passport. I am nauseated by how bad of a world citizen America is today.
My values, integrity and conscience won't let me feel differently. It saddens me." Kate
[ 11. November 2005, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Lou B ]
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
[ 11. November 2005, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Yo liver...you mistakenly commented on my statement in this thread as an inference that questioned your patriotism. You were wrong and no apology to me from you was forthcomming...that's ok...
However by not stating one loves this country and continually bashing it can also be inferred that one is not all that happy to be an American.
You stated you don't like any particular religion. You don't like America(inferred by your own remarks), and you obviously don't like liver...so might I inquire...what do you like?
Mo you said you don't like covert attacks...yet by your continuous postings of information and remarks that those that don't agree with you must come from the "uninformed" can by some be inferred as an insult....
I submit to those that continue this assault on our nation and leaders should try another country in which to live.
Having been in the Navy I have seen other nations and was really glad to get back to the good old USA.
Oh yeah, we have our faults...but at least we can voice our thoughts and live...not so in other countries or nations.
So I say on this Veterans day...love it or leave it....
From one who has gone to war(I enlisted in 68 not drafted...because I believed in my country)and was honorably discharged from serving my country....
Unles you folks have a better proactive plan to suggest...all the negative, depressing bashing of MY country does no one any good...especially on lymenet where folks come to be encouraged and fortified and supported....
using profanity and or calling our fighting ladies whores should not be allowed on this net...
Calling the initial post bigoted,ignorant etc...is not allowed under present rules...
God Bless America and all my fellow Veterans on this day of celebration...not of war....but of service to OUR country....and the sacrifices that have been made.
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Z,
Please refrain from putting words 'in my mouth' and putting your own twist on my posts, trying to distort their meaning.
I do not need to apologize for how I perceive a post. And, in fact, you are still appear to be saying the same thing, which is: anyone who disagrees with the current administrations tactics, and your personal view of the world, is unpatriotic. Why is that?
If you would have read, and understood my previous postings, you will have learned that in fact, I am saying the opposite of what you claim. That is, disagreeing with an administrations stance, is not unpatriotic and is just as patriotic, if not more patriotic, because if one did not care for one's country or fellow countrymen - then WHY WOULD ONE BOTHER WITH THAT??? Why would anyone stick their neck out and risk having it chopped off, if one did not care?
For arguments sake, did you like Clinton and agree with everything he did, and the way he did it???
If the answer is no, then should I have called you unpatriotic and anti-American during the Clinton years? (and no, before you jump to conclusions, that does not mean I was cheering him on through all his time in office either).
I never said I do not like religion. I stated that I am non-religious, as in I do not belong to any particular organized religion - there is a difference. (or non-organized for that matter). If I don't have a dog or cat, does that mean I do not like dogs or cats? No, it just means I do not have a dog or cat.
You are right in that my name infers that I do not like liver. Does the 'Z' mean you're asleep?
[ 11. November 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: dontlikeliver ]
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
These posts are never directed toward 'America'.
This is a tired old tactic!
Posting concerns and active opposition to the initial posting is most certainly allowed here, taunting and harassing individuals is NOT Z-man.
Information questioning our LEADERS actions and inactions is about as patriotic as it gets. ESPECIALLY NOW.
And if there were tangible facts, answers, TRUTHS that justify the actions/inactions in question and our leaders actions surrounding this War..
Then those questions would be ANSWERED easily, instead or those asking them dubbed 'unpatriotic'. You also would not have the need to constantly twist our posts into something we are not saying.
In my opinion, support for this War is about as un-American as we can get.
Secrecy in government is something all AMERICANS should not tolerate, under any circumstances.
Manipulating intelligence to make a case for War, and acting upon it unilaterally should NOT be tolerated by AMERICANS.
Stockpiling of plutonium, uranium, hundreds of tons of the stuff (talk about yer WMD's!!) and an administration interested in producing nuclear weapons, taking us back to danger levels globally that existed before the Cold War ended, and doing so for no better reason than POWER hunger.. should NOT be tolerated by Americans.
The continued rapid decrease of support and care for the poor, elderly, and the sick in this country while the richest enjoy not only insane profits, but continued increases in tax breaks ahould NOT be tolerated by Americans.
Setting up a Supreme Court that is poised to cow-tow to the wants exclusively belonging to the religious right ahould NOT be tolerated by Americans.
An administration that will not hold press conferances in which the public can simply ask questions..and operated behind doors all of the time, (as now we see this admin has not only outed a CIA agent because her husband exposed info they did not want the American public to know about, but also was conspiring to go to War befire they even presented the idea to Congress) should not be tolerated in AMERICA.
An administration that uses massive resources military, and the dear and IMO sacred lives of those willing to fight for our FREEDOMS, who lies to, manipulates, and abuses these men and women both by manipulation of intelligence, untent, and also HORRIBLE planning..***continuing is un-American in the most extreme way I can imagine.
Noone has any right to proclaim standing up for our country, standing up and holding our ELECTED leaders accountable is un-American..
In fact, take a look at your own views, and what what you support is doing to human beings and our World.
I'm proud to be an American, and willing to fight to expose corupt leadership of this wonderful country, before it collapses by their hand.
Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Abrams, Libby, Rove, Rumsfeld, DeLay.. are just a few of the most UN-American administrators we have ever had. They will go down in history as such, no doubt.. but everyone should be concerned about where they are taking us right now.. or we will wake up to a nuclear age that will be the end of life as we ever knew it for our kids.
A good deal of MODERATE Republican political figures are both distancing themselves from the White House, and partaking in closer looks at many things. Many figures even speaking publicly, then we have WAR VETERANS in large number protesting this administrations actions in Iraq, we have multiple political figures as well as former government officials, miltary experts, as well as numerous poeple who made their lifes work studying Middle east relations (!) the list of protestors is very long.. speaking out.
Are they all unAmerican, and only those waving flags and believing in this admin no matter WHAT, without accountability or question.. are American? That sounds more like Facism than Democracy.
Educate yourself. These things are written about by multiple non-Partison groups, including nuclear proliferation by OUR government..
Mo
[ 11. November 2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
as DLL said, dissent is a vital and necessary way to voice one's patriotism. it is ESSENTIAL to the democratic process as we know it, and is even outlined as such in the US constitution. stifle dissent, and we have fascism; which is precisely what GWB wants. have you read 1984 by George Orwell? frighteningly pertinent to today's world. he was just a couple decades off in his "fictional" predictions, really.
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
I know that you didn't mean it to come across this way, but it did. This is why I haven't been in off topic for so long...
Just because I and others don't agree, doesn't mean we need a lecture or a lesson, if you will..
Believe it or not, a person can be educated, even have a college degree and still disagree with you..lol!
Sorry I don't have the energy to debate, as this would be one I would love to give my all to.
But I am simply drained, as my daughter has Juvenile Diabetes and is very ill....
Things like this, become trivial, when faced with a child who has a life threatening illness, one where a too high or too low blood sugar, becomes and immediate threat to her health...
Debating/arguing about who agrees with the article this woman wrote, and who doesn't, just doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.
Especially when nothing ever changes over here... the same few will agree and the same few will not agree. Nothing I or anyone says, will change that.... at least it hasn't in the past 3 years
I hope you all have a Happy Holiday Season!!! I am starting a new support group for parents whose children have chronic illnesses and will be spending most of my free time there and over on LymeNet medical/general.
Best wishes everyone, see ya around:)
~Missy
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Things like this, become trivial, when faced with a child who has a life threatening illness, one where a too high or too low blood sugar, becomes and immediate threat to her health...
Hi LB --
That is so true. Our first priority is children and our family...health.
I know, I spent two years in that, which is right where you should be at times like this.
Luckily, we're out of danger zone, but still is our priority. I hope things get a little better every day for Mikayla.
On the rest of it, I only care for discussion, I expect folks to take it or leave it as to whether they want to do that on a thread. I reserve the right to have an oppositional view on certain topics, and always include reasons and info as to WHY.
I feel it is of great detriment to our country that an attitude of 'Left against Right' and there are certain very significant concerns some refuse to acknowledge or consider -- this division is a sort of Cancer in my view.
We've all been pitted against eachother and that causes allot of refusal to look at the problems themselves, and refusal to look at our present government objectively. Refusal to look at this War. More than sixty percent of Americans question these things regarding Iraq now, tho.. and as many doubt this admin's honesty -- so I figure they can be opened up over here by now.
I don't have the sentiments you suggest.. in fact, if I didn't care so much about what people thought or realize how we all impact eachother's welfare in our thinking on this subject, I wouldn't post on any of these topics. I'm concerned for all our kids (all of them, young and old, civilians and in the military) when it comes to present and the future and the impact of this time in history on their welfare.
I also do not feel these things are trivial (tho do fall behind personal health issues, of course).. Now that I am out of serious health danger mode (at least for now)..this subject is next on the list in concern for my children.
With sincerity and best wishes,
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Heck,
I did'nt know how to SPIN things around till I got here...
I only do it cuz you three do it...what's the matter...have I learned your game better than you taught it?
Whatever......
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey Mo, I think a lot of the trouble you're having is that your posts wander and are too long, and people only read a small portion. If you want good debate, you have to learn to be more concise and to the point. Otherwise you're just talking to yourself most of the time.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
I've just recently joined the LymeNet board and have been reading mostly Medical posts, my 27 year old daughter has recently been diagnosed with LD, but I happened onto this thread.
I see that you were in Vietnam in 1968. I was in Northern I Corp on two separate tours, 66-67 & 67-68. I was with two different Seabee Units, NMCB9, Danang area and CBMU 301, KeSahn/Quang Tri.
After discharge from USN I enlisted again this time in the USAF, retired after 23 years - 26 years total service.
Just thought I'd say hi! and Welcome Home
LymeDad
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've just re-read this entire thread for the third time and I have only a couple of thoughts. There just my thoughts and not intended to hurt anyone's ego, feelings or sensibilities.
I'm always amused at the writings of my so-called Liberal friends, as well as those Liberals who are not my friends. It appears to me that if you write longer responses, use bold faced type and regurgitate enough rhetoric, you'll convince someone, maybe even yourself, that you're more intelligent, more informed and therefore correct in your thinking.
The reason I read the entire thread three times is that each time I read it, all I could hear in my mind was BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Again, if I hurt anyone's feelings or bruised your egos, tough - deal with it.
Just my opinion!!
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 78
posted
You can't hurt her feelings, been trying for years! Oh, and welcome, common sense sometimes runs short around here.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
Why are criticizms and critiques of individuals the only replies to the subject of Iraq?
24 -no matter the length, you seem to read nothing that isn't in perfectly line with your own pre-concieved notions.. and as far as being accused of lecturing, and of insunuating others are 'uneducated'..well, a considerable amount of Americans are not, certainly if they look to evening news as their only source.. I make that comment and stand by it refering to a considerable number of Americans, really by some fault of their own at this point in time.
You have to seek info in this day -- if any of you are up on the issues...then please do, if you like, talk about it. If I didn't assume you had thoughts, why would I post here? What puzzles me is that they are rarely expressed (on topic)..
It's funny, the ones coming down on this idea (and me) that voicing opposition to the War is some sort of 'superiority' thing -- the ones who say that the most are the least likely to ever address the actual subjects.
Food for thought..
in addition, with great reverence to our Veterans on board.. including you, LabRat, love of my life Tho you only like me when you've had a few, it seems..
..seriously, I revere your service..however each War, each conflict, and each administration is an isolated issue, is it not?
Unilateral, pre-emptive, pre-conspired War based on lies to Congress going in are just a few of the stark contrasts that come to mind.. and then there are the results..
There are a large number of Veterans (young and old) in staunch opposition of the Iraq War. Some who have returned, some from the Persian Gulf, some from Vietnam, WWII, ect..
There are also soldiers and families living on bases quoted as saying they CANNOT afford to question or hold this administration accountable for their handling of the War.. understandably so..of course they can't... and have said that they COUNT on civilians to do so. We can, we SHOULD -- and we do. For them. Answers and accountability are not too much to expect.
Mo
[ 13. November 2005, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay I'll take the bait, I'll say something "on-topic", but forgive me if I rattle on too much.
The topic was and is Pam Foster's comments concerning her letter to a family member serving in Iraq.
I applaud Ms Foster's question, "Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we"? I wonder if some folks are really clear on what it means to fight a war.
Regardless of your individual sentiments,ideas or misconceptions as to why we're in Iraq, the point is we are there. It's time we learned our lessons from previous conflicts/wars and stop giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
What do we think we're showing those who would do us harm in Iraq or here on our soil when we show such little regard for our Commander-in-Chief and those in his charge? Do we assume that the insurgents in Iraq are so stupid that they don't watch CNN or read the New York Times?
Do we assume that they believe we are country united in the fight to defeat terrorism when we are so divided in our politics and so willing to show the world our divisions?
Free speech is a wonderful concept we all hold dear, unfortunately freedom of any type is not free. There is a cost and obligation for those freedoms.
Lastly, please don't anyone here or anywhere else suppose they can speak for either our soldiers or their families. They can and will speak for themselves.
Our men and women in uniform are where they are by choice. They don't need your help, just your loyalty and your prayers.
That includes the highest ranking member of our military, the Commander-In-Chief.
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mo, you ramble and ramble. You could summarize your points much quicker if you wanted. I only read a couple of paragraphs at the most because I can only stomach so much negative, pessimism and complaining....and I don't have the time anyway.
Lymenet Offtopic is not a part-time job for me, and I never plan to put it on my resume as great experience and as an accomplishment in life. LOL.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Thanks for chimeing in lymedad and bit...
I don't feel so all alone anymore.
There seems to be one inescapable thought on my mind right now...
something that escapes MO and that is that the great american "uninformed uneducated sheep" that only watch the local news and don't have access to a computer........so she deems herself their only source of information and education.........
these masses of people...
ARE NOT HERE.........on this net....
I suggest MO if you really want to educate the great uneducated...get a soapbox and head to times square and shout your stuff out to the masses...
I'm real sure they'll give you their undivided attention.
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Lymedad,
Hello and Welcome to the other side of LymeNet
you said:
"Free speech is a wonderful concept we all hold dear, unfortunately freedom of any type is not free. There is a cost and obligation for those freedoms.
Lastly, please don't anyone here or anywhere else suppose they can speak for either our soldiers or their families. They can and will speak for themselves.
Our men and women in uniform are where they are by choice. They don't need your help, just your loyalty and your prayers.
That includes the highest ranking member of our military, the Commander-In-Chief."
Amen!!!! I couldn't have said it better myself. And Lord knows I have tried!
My dad was in the Army and did 2 tours of duty in Vietnam. He was in the Army for 20 years, he would have been in longer had the let him.
I chose the user name LymeBrat, because I have lyme and I am an Army Brat. Something I am very proud of.
I have members of my family in Iraq at this moment and you are dead on that they do not want others speaking for them.... or protesting in their name.
Every single person I know of who is in he Military, is there because they chose to be. They are there due to a great love for this country and it's citizens. It is a chose they made, one they wish others would respect.
The protesting done in the name of our soldiers, sickens most soldiers I have spoken to. I know I watched my dad, an Army veteran of 20 years, watch some of the protesting on TV, and simply shake his head and when he turned around, there were tears in his eyes.
This is a man who never shows emotions, yet these protesters brought back memories he'd would rather forget. He is a man of few words, and has never discussed with us his time spent in Vietnam...
But he did say that all the men and women in this war or any war have to hold on to while in a foreign country, fighting for what they truly believe in, is the respect and support of their fellow Americans.
Unfortunately, the welcome home he and many soldiers received when they came home from Vietnam, was deplorable... one they will carry to their graves.
A memory, he can never forget. A memory he doesn't want the men and women in this war or any other war to have.
But like most soldiers, he will support these protesters rights to protest...because he knows the cost of freedom. A freedom many soldiers before him, amongst him and after him, have paid for with their blood.
A freedom many people here, safely in America... take for granted.
It is my hope that someday my dad will tell me about the time he spent in Vietnam ... I know it won't be a pretty picture, and I don't want or need to hear all the gory details.. but he spent 20 years of his life devoted to this country..he gave up so much to be a soldier. And he would do it again today if given the choice....
I would just like to get to know him better, not as my dad, but as the remarkable man who loved his country so much, that he gave 20 years of his life devoted to helping to keep her free.
I know most soldiers don't hear this nearly enough, so please let me say... thank you for being a soldier of the United States and fighting to keep her free!!
My son who is 9 years old, has always been fascinated with soldiers. Ever since his Grampa showed him how to salute, he has saluted every soldier he meets.
We went to a Veteran's Day parade on Friday, to honor our Veteran's and he stood there for over 20 mins, giving each and every soldier who passed him a perfect salute.
You should have seen the smiles ( and tears) on the older Veteran's faces as they passed him. It was priceless! I am proud to have a 9 year old son, who seems to truly understand and respect our soldiers and the sacrifices they make.
Sorry this got so lengthy, as you can tell this is a topic I hold dear to my heart.
God Bless, ~Brat
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
It's not bait, by the way..and Tony Z, please stop deamonizing me and portraying me as something I'm not.
All I expect here is discussion. Noone has to partake if they don't want to. It seems as tho a considerable number of Americans are following White House propaganda, that's no personal comment on you..and if you don't, I'd like to hear your views.. period. That's up to you.
LymieDad, you write:
I applaud Ms Foster's question, "Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we"? I wonder if some folks are really clear on what it means to fight a war.
I think this is a core question. One of the most important ones to look at -- how has this War fought Terror, and is the Middle East more stable??
Attacks in Jordan are just the latest example of considerable de-stabalization of the region, as the bombers were of the burgeoning Al Quada groups based in Iraq. It's billowing well beyond the insurgency, and posing great threat to all US allies in the region.
Attacks in London and Madrid by similar interest groups, and today Al Quada publicly named Queen Elizabeth as one of the greatest enemies of 'Islam'.. so London is hunkering down in fear yet again.
We ALL want to fight the War on Terror..and I feel it is paramount that Partison anger is dropped and intelligent, inified and honest address of and by our 'leaders' gets in gear.
Regardless of your individual sentiments,ideas or misconceptions as to why we're in Iraq, the point is we are there. It's time we learned our lessons from previous conflicts/wars and stop giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
The above addresses this some, and I will add that this conflict has no element of previous conflicts/Wars.. and was unconstitutional from the get go. I contend that that MATTERS.. I also want to point out that we have on fact given tremendous aide to the TRUE enemy.. which is not the people of Iraq, but Al Qada and other Islamic extremist groups in cells throughout the World. Massive deaths and suffering of innocent Iraqis is their ticket to recruit young men and women who are willing to die to kill Americans and citizens if any of our allied countries. ..and they are in motion doing just that. Al Qada is now a global network, much more solid and unified than it was before we pulled out of Afghanistan and went into Iraq.
Afghanistan is also a new breeding ground..
How then, are we fighting the War on Terror? Our troops are fighting the insurgenccy, they another breed of 'terrorists'..just not the ones who attacked us..and were borne out of the invasion -- meanwhile the ones who did attack us (or the like) are operating in several locations within and outside of Iraq.
What do we think we're showing those who would do us harm in Iraq or here on our soil when we show such little regard for our Commander-in-Chief and those in his charge? Do we assume that the insurgents in Iraq are so stupid that they don't watch CNN or read the New York Times?
No, I think they are well read. Another MAJOR problem, and one they use to their advantage is actually a big point the Republicans and Democrats speaking out against this administration -- is that the majority of the World distrusts the honesty of the Bush administration. Even as recently as this week, after the attacks in Jordan..the citizens of our ALLIED country in the region were polled at 80% not trusting this American administration.
Therefore, holding our 'Commander in Chief' accountable and demanding honest communications at home and with our allied leaders is actually very proactive in National Security issues.. stabalization and effective cooperation will never come if this admin is not trusted to such an overwhelming degree. If the allies don't trust us.. what do you think the enemies are going to do with that sentiment, and don't you think it's then so much easier to recruit a hundred times more terrorists who wish to attack us here again, and our allies? Does it have to get to 100% distrust before we demand change?
Do we assume that they believe we are country united in the fight to defeat terrorism when we are so divided in our politics and so willing to show the world our divisions?
They know we are divided, and have known that since the beginning of the invasion.
Again, the question is in which sentiment do we unite? It must be in truth.. it will never work to unite behind a corrupt administration.. just because Bush is Commander in Chief.. uniting behind him will not solve the problems and in fact would and has made them worse in my opinion.
Free speech is a wonderful concept we all hold dear, unfortunately freedom of any type is not free. There is a cost and obligation for those freedoms.
Agreed.
Lastly, please don't anyone here or anywhere else suppose they can speak for either our soldiers or their families. They can and will speak for themselves.
Our men and women in uniform are where they are by choice. They don't need your help, just your loyalty and your prayers.
Actually, like I said...most of them and their families cannot be pro-active in examining the adnimistration in charge. Their very survival depends on following orders, something I suspect you know. The families are being put through quite enough to be expected to be politically active to boot.. tho many of then are despite all this.. many cannot.
I disagree entirely. We (citizens)have the duty to protect them by demanding this administration and those in their charge are operating effectively, and with American troops best interests in mind, and utilizing the military in an effective way so they can actually do what they do with HONOR, and that they are being utilized for the reasons they are TOLD, and the reasons they signed up for.
Anything less is a disgrace to them IMO. As I cannot speak for them, neither can anyone else..and to assume they would be behind this admin if they had the luxury to consider things as we can -- is just as wrong in my opinion. Even in their position, some of them are against the management of this mission as well.
Also, a very large number of Veterans are speaking out against THIS administration's action past and continuing in Iraq.
The soldiers absolutely have my loyalty and prayers. Agreed there too!
That includes the highest ranking member of our military, the Commander-In-Chief.
No, I do not believe it does.. tho the soldiers in active duty can only view him as their highest commander.. the citizens have an obligation to at the very least hold this elected official accountable for his management of American National Security interests, the War on Terror, and also his management/abuse of our troops.
Are you saying no matter what the core issues are, no matter if there is corruption, lies, unconstitutional plans for War (conspiring with allies to invade before bringing it to Congress), manipulating intelligence presented before the Senate.. and a War that has killed over 2000 of our troops and is failing on every level.. including the fact it has DEstabalized the region greatly.. you are saying that just because he is the President.. that no matter what the circumstances... we MUST line up behind him?
Right now there is a 36% approval rating on this matter.
Do you really feel the country is betraying the troops and America in this case? I don't, I think they are standing up for both.
I (of course) feel that support of this Administration is a fastmoving one-way ticket to the demise of American moral and ethical standing in the World. We've suffered greatly in that area, and that is probably the biggest obstacle in an effective stance against global terrorist networks. CLEARLY, we cannot do this alone.
To others..these concerns/points are not in any way to be misconstrued as disrespecting our service men and women, active or Veterans... it's awful that they are twisted into that rather than discussed on point. There is only respect in these concerns for ALL.
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
I deeply respect and understand your post, but I don't understand with such strong sentiment for the military why one would not (in this case) be concerned about their leadership.
"Every single person I know of who is in he Military, is there because they chose to be. They are there due to a great love for this country and it's citizens. It is a chose they made, one they wish others would respect."
This especially..as to many who are inquiring and holding accountable the administration's handling of the military and the situation surrounding Iraq -- do so with this in mind.
it is NOT protesting soldiers or dishonoring their service to focus on the commanding administration.
They are not joined but they must follow, and the administration does not speak for them either -- and in this case is doing them great harm, they cannot protest or even think beyond their job. Our administrators are in charge of making sure these men and women are highly revered and used wisely and honestly.. so their intent to serve and fight for freedom is upheld.
Demanding honesty, acountability and a plan is done with great respect for the soldiers fighting there now.
Some soldiers would never question things, as they are trained not to, some do question, and others understand that the public will..and should..and hope that we do just that.
I don't pretend to speak for all soldiers, and no matter how strongly you feel about it -- I don't think you or anyone else can speak for them either.
Again, the point is this is an isolated conflict with all it's own elements to consider. IMO we are SUPPOSED to fight for them as they do for us! ((in this particular situation.))
Noone is blindly opposing SOLDIERS, there are many things in question that are very wrong regarding our 'leaders' behavior in their charge..
Discussing that is apart from the soldiers themselves, but of course with them in mind.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
My goodness where do I start. I doubt I'll be missed but this will my last post on this subject, I need to concentrate on helping a very sick young lady begin her recovery.
heiwalove:"Need I continue" I couldn't tell you said anything. Listing the URLs of a couple of websites doesn't say much. I looked at each of the listed websites.
For every veteran's name or family listed on your source websites, I can supply ten names of friends, and their families, who have either served their country honorably or who are currently doing so.
I can assure you, each of these folks would not share the sentiments of those on the websites nor with several members of this Flash Group. The reason you won't see their names on any website is that they actually have lives, jobs, families to raise and bills to pay.
LymeBrat, God Bless You. Your father is lucky to have such a caring daughter.
Talking about his experiences in Vietnam is not an easy thing to do. Those were experiences that have no connection with real life and unless one has lived through those times, it's extremely hard to explain our feelings. At least in my case, I've tried, at times quite successfully, to erase those memories or at the least bury them deep enough in my mind where they leave me alone. Give him time, just be there if he needs to talk some day.
Mo, It's really hard to know where to begin. I read your input throughout this thread and I feel like I've fallen asleep and awakened in 1969.
I heard all of the left rhetoric back then and I guess times have come full circle. Same message, different war, same result - undermining the spirit of the fighting man and giving aid and comfort to those who oppose us.
I would like to respond to a couple of your points. I know my input will not change your position, but that's okay. I don't agree with you on much of anything, but I spent more than half of my adult life, 26 years, defending your right to voice them.
...how has this War fought Terror, and is the Middle East more stable?
I don't believe that was the question being posed by the original "I don't care" author. I believe her point was that she was sick of watching all of the Politically Correct nonsense being spewed by many, rather than worrying about what is really important, our national security and the safety and well-being of our troops in harms way.
However, to briefly answer your "core" question, this war is fighting terror in a very basic way; every insurgent that is killed, is one less terrorist in the world, very basic stuff.
Secondly, at least for me, I don't care whether the Middle East is more stable or not. The Middle East hasn't been stable in a very long time, our being in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, or any where else, will not change the instability of a people who are willing to strap on a few blocks of C4 and kill as many people as they can, even their own countrymen. I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them.
...Attacks in Jordan...London and Madrid...examples of futher de-stablization
Our being in or out of Iraq would not have prevented these attacks. The attacks in Lebanon, Africa, Oman, etc. happened well before 9/11 and our "liberation" of Iraq. Believing that our withdrawal from Iraq would have had any impact on the above mentioned attacks in Jordan, London, etc. is just pure naivete.
The citizens of our ALLIED country in the region...
The citizens of our so-called ALLIED countries not having respect for our government leaders is again not important, at least not to me.
We spend way too much time worrying about how we're perceived around the world and not enough about how to protect our own citizens. I quite confident that when Jordan, France or Spain get in a jam, they won't hesitate to call for our help, regardless of their opinions of our president.
...holding our Commander in Chief accountable
There are methods established within our constitution that allow for the accountability of our chief executive, when and if it becomes necessary these processes will do their job.
Your point concerning your "duty" to protect our servicemen and their families has probably caused me the most consternation. I find your sentiments to be patronizing at the least and outrageous at the most.
I find it ironic that people who have absolutely nothing to do with the military in times of peace find it their responsibility to represent them during a time of war that person doesn't support.
We have never needed your assistance and they certainly don't need it now.
Please remember when we take our oath of enlistment or commission, we swear to "protect and defend the consitution" and we swear to "obey the orders of those appointed over us". We give that pledge without question or rancor, we don't assume to distinguish which duty we will support nor which political party we will obey.
The idea that you or anyone else outside the military chain-of-command knows what is best for our troops or how they should be deployed is laughable.
Putting on a uniform does not remove ones ability to think or to have opinions. Your point that military families cannot express their political point of view is again without merit. Most military members and their families do not express their political opinions in public because they choose not to, not because they cannot.
The Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibits only the public display of protest while in uniform. It certainly does not prevent one from exercising the purest form of protest, our right to vote.
I apologize for rambling and I have only one final comment concerning your latest post.
Your comment, "Al Qada is now a global network, much more solid and unified than it was before we pulled out of Afghanistan...
I'm quite sure that the more than 16,000 troops currently serving in Afghanistan will be happy to know that they can come home now.
Cheers,
LymeDad
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'll answer further because there is allot, but for now I have to comment it is important to remember that this War is not Vietnam. The majority in opposition are not those who were protesting then, nor are the reasons or circumstances the same. Global Terrorism is a much different animal.
With respect, this idea that 'we' cannot call for answers because it is 'against the troops' or that civillians cannot 'possibly understand'.. yet providing NO solid answers..has been used by the Bush administration for the first two years of this War to supress questions of grave importance.
This War is not justified by the emotions surrounding conflicts past. In addition the attacks on 911 were in no way tied to Iraq.
What is being done about the Terror that struck MY home??
We all have the same interests in combating the terrorist groups that attacked us.. don't you think that specialized and targeted military action against terror cells where they lie would be allot more effective in combatting this? Rather than desimating countries and killing hundreds of thousands of innocents and 2000 of out troops, injuring scores more??
With Terror networks reaching around the globe, how can the manner in which we went into Iraq be applied effectively? Should we do that in every country that is home to islamic extremist terror cells?
Tho -- Iraq (pre-invasion) was not...let us not forget.
Lies by this administration when we have so much at stake certainly do pose grave concern. Does that not weigh on your mind?
We sirely can't afford these kinds of lies -- and to be viewed by the majority of the World as liars also puts this admin at a considerable disadvantage in fighting Terror. You may not care about Jordan and other allies, but we need them.
Are we to support corrupt leadership out of some proposed obligatory silent submission? We can respect your service and the service of the active and still demand this War be justified with SPECIFICS, and if not..the path changed.
ALL our kids lives are on the line and your answers are not enough to satisfy the issues raised.
Point respected that when soldiers put on their uniform, they are not poised to question, I understand that.
Another point is, tho some may BELIEVE the invasion in Iraq is protecting America, does not make it so. Tho some may BELIEVE it is now our job to 'stabalize' the region and moreover that we are accomplishing that, does not make that so.
That we are now responsible to shoot first, ask qiestions later is not a clear justification either, and in fact, seems and is prooving to be rather chaotic and deleterious.
terror networks have strewngthened, and yes, in Afghanistan as well.. this is well documented.
SUPPOSITIONS like the ones made above regarding the countries invlolved are not justification for War. If it were that simple, if we keep following the NEW policy..introduced by Bush.. that we no longer 'wait for a reason' .. we go before there is one..
if this continues.. how many countries will be invaded in this regard?
yet, the real threat has been left largely untouched or abandoned????
They ignored and continue to ignore real, tangible, existing threats!
Do you ever consider the pre-War agenda of these administrators (public record) and the profit gains of members of this admin and their ties, ptofits connected to Iraq?
What of the strengthening of Terror networks such as Al Qada? Iran?
How long before things go nuclear on this path?
It is outlandish to think we can powerhouse our way throgh all of this alone, with no relations with countries in question or many allies? It cannot work that way, and that line of thinking completely discounts a great deal of other nations and puts us at a tremendous disadvantage.
I'm sorry and with all due respect, there needs to be more tangible evidence, more specific gains beyond rhetoric.. to justify the Iraq War and these 2000 + American military deaths -- much more than you have provided.
The attacks in Jordan, Madrid and London were borne out of Al Qada in Iraq or responding to Iraq, of course they are a result of this War and have been stated as such by those who perpetrated them!
I respect what you are saying, but your opinions of Middle Eastern conditions alone do not justify this War.
Mo
[ 14. November 2005, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 78
posted
Really, really good post Lymedad! The problem is, ``precious'', has been told this many times by many trustworthy people and it is in conflict with what her friends, favorite web sites and the democratic party tell her and hey, if you can't believe ted kennedy, you might as well hang it up!
Puts me in mind of a thirteen year old girl, or the definition of ignorance and indifferent. (I don't know and I don't care!)
Have you noticed, the anti-war people always seem to demonstrate against the country defending itself! Makes you think they almost belong to a branch of a foreign army!
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Actually, I do not think it is true. There are times when war would be necessary, like defending one self.
But, in the case of Iraq, did we go there to defend ourselves? Not as far as I can tell. Does anyone truly know why we went there, considering Iraq did not have WMD's and seemingly not a connection to 911 either.
So, is no clear reason a good enough reason to go to war with anyone?
DLL
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
lymedad and brat and 24....glad you're here...I don't blame you dad for leaving...its hopeless...
To state that this war on terror is not like vietnam is inaccurate...all war is basically the same and waged for basically the same reasons...
Even when you go back to the crusades...the Cristians fought to get the Holy city back from the islams(persians who the christians called infidels...not the islamic calling the christians infidels which does'nt even show up in the Koran) after they invaded and took over...
War is about stuff...pretty fundamental... The folks over their don't have a lot of stuff and are held back from getting stuff by their leaders...so they fight their leaders or find someone to help them fight their leaders...especially their leaders that have used genocide, poverty, ignorance and religious beliefs of before the middle ages to keep them in line...fear.
As far as the US killing "innocents"...yeah I heard the same old rhetoric when serving in Nam..."killing and burning babies" and I was spit on and almost shot a couple times when on leave. That's what comes of dangerous rhetoric in a war.
These same "innocents" were brainwashed into strapping booby trap bombs to themselves just to take out a few soldiers...so what's different now! You did'nt see the helicopters full of blown up bleeding disfigured dead bodies these innocents created.... And this and more on the initial topic is that this woman voiced her opinion which she is allowed to do...even if it's viewed by some as racist...and even your opinions that it is racist is protected that's why more people want to be more like Americans then those that don't. Ya know MO just cuz you say I'm deamonizing you does'nt make it so...what? Do you have a guilty conscience? At least you're accusing me on your own now and not able to ride on the coat tails of your buddy... You're the one that accuses those here and all accross america of being "uninformed, uneducated, sheep"...this is the same as saying we're all stupid and incapable...
Then when I tell you the folks you need to talk to are not what you say we are...you accuse me of stuff and spin and spin and spin...to you're way of thinking.
Guess what? We, the well informed dissagree with you...
You and liver state that the terrorists were not even in Iraq...but now you state they are...are you kidding? I told you earlier that the saudis and osama wanted hussein OUT...don't you get it?
You think you understand war...you've never been in one...while that does'nt disqualify you from understanding war persay your missunderstanding war and why it is waged due to your obvious lack of research on past war is highly evident.
Would it surprise you to know we were involved in Saudi and the middle east and all that stuff while we were still fighting in Nam?
Would it surprise you to know that genocide has been used by the Chinese, Cambodians, vietnamese, as well as Hussein etc? Ya know folks don't like that too much...dieing from starvation or being gassed.
Ya think ya got it alllll figured out huh?
Like Jack says on the stand in the movie..."You can't handle the truth"...
If we're so ignorant and imperialistic and facistic or whatever you and liver or whoever want to designate that the American people are...then how come folks from other nations are still comming here in droves?
And if you think we can't take on the world terrorist organization...your just as wrong as the Germans and Japanese were in world war two.
Keep poking us and we'll awaken...we don't have to go nucleur to do it either...
What do you think is going to happen when China needs to expand and find markets for their products to keep people working earning a living and they need food, water,oil etc...Ya think they're eventually just gonna ask for it?
Ya know 24,Dad and brat...I've tried...and basically my initial objective has been achieved anyway so I'm gonna take a little vacation from the obsurdity...... Maybe if we ignore them they'll go away....then they can just talk to each other and feed each others ego....
So long for now...I'm on vacation for awhile.....zman :hi:ps...I served on the Iwo Jima LPH2 from 69 thru 71...two tours on a Amphibious Assault Ship... I was saddened when Kent Happened...I used to party there... I was saddened because I believed I was fighting for the same freedoms the kids were expressing...
And I fought on and would again if I were able... and yes Mo and liver...I had my eyes wide open to what was going on...funny how the byproduct of quote"imperialistic,facist, whatever is feedom for the little guy...oh...nevermind...see ya....
[ 14. November 2005, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Lymedad
Excellent post!!!
I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. My kids both have Lyme. After 18 months of treatment, my daughter was declared cured of lyme. My 9 year old son continues to have headaches, and bad joint pain.
Also my daughter was diagnosed with diabetes in May, so I totally understand and respect your need to put all your energy and time into caring for your child. I will keep you both in my prayers!
If you find you have some free time, stop by and visit. Your posts are refreshing... many of us here share your view point
you said:
"LymeBrat, God Bless You. Your father is lucky to have such a caring daughter.
Talking about his experiences in Vietnam is not an easy thing to do. Those were experiences that have no connection with real life and unless one has lived through those times, it's extremely hard to explain our feelings. At least in my case, I've tried, at times quite successfully, to erase those memories or at the least bury them deep enough in my mind where they leave me alone. Give him time, just be there if he needs to talk some day."
Thank you!
Also thank you for giving me your insight about my dad and his experience in Vietnam. Hearing it put this way, I am better able to understand and except, that he may never want to share those years with me.
I never made the connection between real life and the time he served, but it does make sense.
Like you, my dad is able to put the past and bad memories behind him... most of the time. But I think they are buried just below the service, as when he hears and sees these protesters, it brings it all back.
I hate that all these years later, these protester's actions can still cause him so much pain. And I refuse to sit by idly and let it happen again.
You said:
" Your point concerning your "duty" to protect our servicemen and their families has probably caused me the most consternation. I find your sentiments to be patronizing at the least and outrageous at the most.
I find it ironic that people who have absolutely nothing to do with the military in times of peace find it their responsibility to represent them during a time of war that person doesn't support.
We have never needed your assistance and they certainly don't need it now.
Please remember when we take our oath of enlistment or commission, we swear to "protect and defend the consitution" and we swear to "obey the orders of those appointed over us". We give that pledge without question or rancor, we don't assume to distinguish which duty we will support nor which political party we will obey.
The idea that you or anyone else outside the military chain-of-command knows what is best for our troops or how they should be deployed is laughable.
Putting on a uniform does not remove ones ability to think or to have opinions. Your point that military families cannot express their political point of view is again without merit. Most military members and their families do not express their political opinions in public because they choose not to, not because they cannot.
The Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibits only the public display of protest while in uniform. It certainly does not prevent one from exercising the purest form of protest, our right to vote."
EXACTLY!!!!!! I thought for a minute my father was writing this
He shares your opinions and view points, as does every single man or woman I know who is serving in the military now, or in the past.
Come back when you can, I enjoy reading your posts.
~LymeBrat
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Hi Zman,
A vacation from off topic is always advised
I take them all the time. And the funny thing is, it never changes. When you come back, it's the same old thing... except it's directed at someone else..lol!
I know I'll take some heat for this, but I'm going to say it anyway ( cause like the author of this article..I don't care )
When I read what you wrote and I quote:
" You're the one that accuses those here and all accross america of being "uninformed, uneducated, sheep"... this is the same as saying we're all stupid and incapable...
Guess what? We, the well informed dissagree with you..."
I had to laugh! I laughed so hard my husband came over to read what I was laughing at and he too started laughing. As I too have been called " uneducated, misinformed, a mindless flag waver, " to name a few... simply because I disagree with a few posters over here.
That's what I meant when I said, I didn't need a lecture or lesson. As I am fully aware of what is going on, I am educated (I even have a college degree ) and yet I dare to disagree with others on this board.
I find it comical that because I don't agree, I must be the one who is...uninformed, misinformed, or unaware...
Yup, some things never change.
Just wanted you to know you're not alone, we all need a break from time to time:)
~Brat
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 78
posted
DLL, in a court of law when your trying to ``prove'', something that can't be proven for lack of evidence (smoking gun), you have to use (or try to use) circumstantial evidence or the preponderance of the evidence that is known to make your case. (There's some lawyer out there saying, ``don't talk a lot of ****''.)
Now, I sure don't have all the answers but I'll give you a few things to mull over. First thing right off the bat, Sadam was televised handing out checks for $25,000 to black burka clad old women whose family member had been suicide bombers. Irrefutable!! He was inclined to at least encourage suicide bombing and that is terrorism.
Now, let's skip the gas, murder, wars and mayhem because that is an established fact that is well documented and is irrefutable! Not a nice man and no sign he's going to change!
Now, remember those metal boxes filled with one hundred dollar bills, $1,000,000 per box, what do you suppose that money was going to be used for or could be used for? I'm sure there was plan A,B and C and he hasn't told anyone yet. Since it was all cash and untraceable American money it could have been used anywhere for any reason where you wanted no trail left behind. He used oil vouchers to bribe politicians so it was for something far more underhanded than that. I'm sure several million went to protest organizers around the world, (Ramesy Clark was johnny on the spot wasn't he!)
Now, I could be all wrong, it could be something none of us has thought of but the preponderance (there's that word again) of the evidence indicates he'd like to do us harm in any way he could and still have his hands looking clean, simply because he knew what we could do to him!
This is going to be a long war and there are folks complaining about putting our children in debt. WWII is reckoned to have cost America 4.7 trillion, (with a t)! Even writing off the loans to our allies (except Finland paid in full) we seem to be doing ok. A hellva lot better than if we had lost, if you want to think about that for a minute! Sure we could give the unwed mothers more since marriage has become old hat less you happen to have a certain sexual preference. The money could go to a lot of worth while areas but it becomes mute if you loose your country!
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Actually it just isn't worth it.
However, Tony Z, you have just AGAIN claimed that I have made statements that I HAVE NOT MADE -RE READ MY POSTS (and understand them) and DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH that do not even reflect my opinion.
Thanks
DLL
[ 14. November 2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: dontlikeliver ]
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Thanks for stopping the spinning DLL, I was getting dizzy!
Tony, Lymebrat, noone here has EVER called anyone else HERE uneducated or uninformed.
I myself have repeatedly stated that those Americans who base their knowledge of Iraq in particular on White House press releases, Fox and CNN.. that those who look only there for sources are most definately ill informed. It is condensed news that suppresses many things the White House and it's coorperate owners do not want broadcasted.
Whenever I post that, you twist it into saying YOU are uninformed, and for the hundredth time, that is not what I have ever said. I would assume you have read beyond the canned nightly news. You said this a zillion times after I posted the UK headlins after the elections, which was something like 'How can 42,567,894 Americans be so Dumb' -- and from that you accused me of calling YOU dumb. Manu in the World view US that way..that is not my fault.
Here we have Tony chiming in and egging this on, twisting DLL and my words throughout.. can we stop the childishness?
I am in no position to say how 'informed' you are, most of us are only interested in on topic focus, and this is just another deterrent IMO. In fact, if there was more talk ON TOPIC we might have some idea of how informed eachother is. Right now, I really couldn't say because there is so much bantering. I have never said that or thought that anyone here is uneducated and I'm TIRED of being accused of it. OK? I should have a little OT disclaimer in my signature or something.
On topic..
I'm surprised some of you would say or insinuate that because we have not fought in a War we cannot possibly speak on this with any knowledge.. I'm sure you'll know things we will never begin to understand, but those things I don't think have allot to do with the 'meat' of this discussion on Iraq. I can respect the hell out of your service, and still do have valid and strong opposing points as to the management of Terror and Iraq. Maybe then I should say that YOU cannot possibly understand the enemy we are facing because you were not there up close and personal on 911 like I was???? Would that make sence?
I think DLL keeps boiling it down to the cruxt of the matter.. all the emotion and passion about beliefs having to do with OTHER Wars, totally diferent circumstances.. we have comparisons here to Vietnam and WWII.. both far cries from Iraq.. so all of that is largely beside the point.
Then we have allot about ways in which one could **assume Saddam was gonna get us one day, one way or another.. and that is the frightening part of all this IMO.
It seems there are still a considerable number of Americans who are fine with having waged this War on supposition.. that the losses are justified based on nothing solid - and the path is fine and dandy..
I'm sorry, but this is ignoring a great deal before through to present, actions AND results, and is a very frightening new policy we have here in America.
In that case, there is a loooong list of places and leaders to attack, many more urgent than Saddam ever was.
So there is no order or honor anymore? Just go in blazing whenever this admin thinks we should (not based on any evidence, lieing all the way).. so they along with some 30% of the population can strong arm the idea that we must attack those viewed (or claimed to be) evil, or in need of 'liberating'?
What IS the reason we are there? Really? Bush was recently asked if he would have gone to War in Iraq knowing what we all know now.. he was asked now that 'we' know there is no connection between Iraq and 911, Saddam had no WMD's, and that Iraqis do not see us as liberaters.. would he still have gone the WAY HE DID.. and he said yes.
But he did not say why..so who can say why?? (note, he also knew all those thing before hand, we now know this as well.)
Supposition... a blanket idea that we will be better of if we 'take over' Iraq somehow (which has been prooven to have the OPOSITE effect as far as 'safety' and stability in the region is concerned..and based on growth of AlQada INSIDE and out of Iraq and many other bases. so, for this question, supposition or any of the reasons Bush gave over the years as they have been prooven false -- doesn't count as valid reasons for War, at least not in a right-side up World..
so, why????????????
Can anyone answer that in specifics?
The only reason that I can see, is Imperialism.. like the Crusades.. to get a foothold in the oil region to ensure power in those resources.. keep a step ahead of China and other developing nations, and to ensure the nation is not forced to convert to alternative energy and fuel sources.. guaranteeing some security for the oil men in office and all their finincial ties and main contributors.
The money made by these folks on this War already is staggering. It's only just begun.
Too big a financial tie to be ignored IMO when there is such a void in justification and so many public lies have been told.
So, in this case... this 'War' is horible not only for Iraqis and stability in the region, but also for Americans, National Security, OUR MILITARY (just ONE dieing for oil is HIGH CRIME and DEAD WRONG in my mind..you bet many are fighting for them!!)..
our dependance on oil is creating a threat much more certain and steady than Terror itself, global warming is an imminent threat -- not just in generations, but documented by international science as a threat to OUR children and their kids.
Some here say it's bunk, like Bush does, who regected joining Kyoto with the rest of the World to take action in protecting our planet. Funny..the effects are so obvious now they even are running a special on Fox Teee Veee..
A change to alternative fuels and other energy sources would create a huge domestic job force, and we could again become leaders in the World by developing new technologies that we could teach/share/sell to China, India.. and all nations who also need alternatives to oil. Sweeden is already promarily running on ethanol, from corn.
What do you know??
Instead of killing, dieing, sucking up trillions of dollars a month fighting for a FINITE, dirty, dangerous and obsolete energy source..and creating a chaotic and dangerous world for OUR KIDS..
we could reverse global warming and create a strong economy!
This War is NOT fighting Terrorism, many said it would not.. as it has turned out, it has strengthened it.
Corruption, lies, and financial gains for those connected to this admin is NOT acceptable for us, and certainly not our soldiers.
We need inteligent managenment focused on striking at the heart of Terror networks and effectively shutting down their work. Terrorism is nothing like any previous enemy of War. You cannot look at it as the same, nor tout the same 'solution'.
We need to let the Middle East see we are true to our word and intend to give Iraq back to the Iraqis.
Bush is viewed internationally as a lieing oil monger. We have fallen far from our position as the 'moral beacon' of the World, gone from a strong stance to a questionable one at best. THAT frightens me.
There is no way we can fight global Terrorism with this kind of leadership and impression.
No WAY.
Mo
[ 14. November 2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Well, I suppose that (OT) male Gynecologists do not know anything about Gynecology either, because they have never (probably) been women.
DLL
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 78
posted
You have personal knowledge Mr. Bush Lied do you? How did you find this out? Who told you and why did they tell you and not me? I have to conclude that your inherently smart to get the jump on the rest of us bumpkins! Lead on O wise one.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, so I lied, I'm back for one final statement. I just couldn't resist the temptation.
"What is being done about the Terror that struck MY home??"
I didn't know the terrorists struck "Wonderland" or "The Back of Beyond". I'm just curious why those that continue to bash the current administration chose not to identify their state of residence, just a curiosity.
"Lies by this administration when we have so much at stake certainly do pose grave concern."
That statement is unsubstantiated by facts, plenty of left inuendo, nothing proven to this point.
"You may not care about Jordan and other allies, but we need them."
Nah, we don't. They need us much more than we'll ever need them.
"Another point is, tho some may BELIEVE the invasion in Iraq is protecting America, does not make it so." "Tho some may BELIEVE it is now our job to 'stabalize' the region and moreover that we are accomplishing that, does not make that so."
Writing you opinion in bold face type does not make your opinion anything but your opinion. Because anyone has a belief in or against a theory does not make it so. Your beliefs have no more validity that anothers.
"how many countries will be invaded in this regard?"
Probably as many as it takes. It seems that maybe you have the answer to that question. You've touched on the subject on several of your writings concerning your position on how to fight the war on terror. I haven't read a whole lot of detail, but I'll leave that one to you.
"They ignored and continue to ignore real, tangible, existing threats!"
Would you advocate going to war with North Korea over their threat, how about China, like to tackle that one?
"I'm sorry and with all due respect, there needs to be more tangible evidence, more specific gains beyond rhetoric.. to justify the Iraq War and these 2000 + American military deaths -- much more than you have provided."
I have never and will never attempt to assume that I have the right to justify any war. Been to two, don't like 'em. As I've said in previous posts, we're there now, let's do it correctly and with unity of purpose.
"The attacks in Jordan, Madrid and London were borne out of Al Qada in Iraq or responding to Iraq, of course they are a result of this War and have been stated as such by those who perpetrated them!"
It appears it is palatable for you to accept the word of a terrorist group when it is convenient to your beliefs. It would seem to fit nicely in with their plans if we were to accept the premise that GWB is the cause of world terrorism rather than placing the blame where it belongs, on the terrorists themselves.
"I respect what you are saying, but your opinions of Middle Eastern conditions alone do not justify this War".
You're absolutely correct, my opinions are just that, my opinions. They only matter to me; however, they have as much validity as anyone elses. Conversely, your opinion of GWB or anyone else in government does not negate their justifications for their actions.
You all know what they say about opinions, their just like some human body parts, everyone has one.
One final point and then I'm gone from this side of LymeNet:
Please don't worry too much about our moral position in the world. We still have our position as the leader of the free world. Now we just do what we say we're going to do. The talk is over, the warnings have been presented, the consequences are being applied. Now do we have the strength as a nation to continue the struggle?? Have we learned from our past mistakes?? Only time will tell.
I'll leave to you all to fight out.
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Sorry you're leaving.. this is just a quick response..
Yes, we all have opinions and hopefully some info to chew on to back them up as we hash things out. I also hope that folks' opinions are not set in stone, and are living breathing things that respond to circumstances and information. Again, and again..and again.. I am not saying anyone's opinion matters more or less than anyone elses.. I'm simply challanging some of these 'opinions'.. that they be backed up with something tangible. You can do that, or not.. your choice entirely. I try and make a point to stay on the issue.
My state of residence is NY.
On September 11th, 2001 I was on my way to work in the Towers that morning..most of us are pretty P.O.ed that Bush didn't keep his promises that day, and even moreso that he and his administration exploited that horrible attack for political gains and used it shamelessly in order to trump up Iraq War support (that lie is documented throughout the 911 commission, btw). However, I do not think you can't speak on civilian attacks of Terror in NYC if you weren't there. Maybe just a bit removed is all..
Regarding this administration's 'misrepresentation', or 'cherry picking' of intelligence, leaving out big pieces in presenting to the Senate such as the one that reported no immenent threat from Saddam.. and a few other choice things..yet we heard of mushroom clouds and the like. (In other words, lying -- )
the 'stretched' and 'omitted' truths are all documented in official paperwork, memos and such. Also, in their public speeches at the time married with inteligence reports they HAD..
I strongly disagree with the idea that we don't need allies in the War on Terror.. I believe we absolutely do. Especially in the Midle East. How can we do this effectively on our own and in the wrong location??
I was not speaking in the above post of China and North Korea, I was speaking about Al Qada as the ignored/abandoned existing threat..
And should we tackle the probelm with North Korea , absolutely I agree with what you said..no way we want to march in there like we did Iraq. But that begs the questions about Iraq tho, doesn't it? That's not the way to handle real threats from countries, such as North Korea..the Bush admin never saw Iraq as threat.
I don't know if you read my next post above.. but global Terror is quite a different enemy than we ever have had before. It seems (and experts agree) it would require a specialized adress by our agencies and the military working in tandem.
North Korea is another story, and I hope we don't soon have a couple more like them.
..and what's this..I've been accused of conspiring with the Terrorists before.. u said I 'take their word' when it behooves me?? I'm sorry, but I do think folks listen to the statements made after an attack as to why they made it.. and I would think they should.
..and I don't understand your take on Jordan..are you then not of the mindset that we are 'liberating' Iraq? I mean..the other claim, that this War is to 'better' the region and make us safer by 'Westernizing' them.. if you lend any credability to that claim, Jordan is one of the most advanced nations in that regard..very 'westernized' societally, ecomomy.. governing, pholisophy, ect. It was an 'oasis' in the Middle East.. standing up against tyranny in the region, smack dab between Israel and Iraq as the one that set an example. Why would you consider them dispensable as allies? There is a very confusing mixed message in all this.
Laborama.. I think I've said this before.. but if you've got evidence that Saddam was fixing to attack America or any other country.. please do tell Cheney or someone.. I'm sure they would really like to have something on that issue right about now..
Mo
[ 15. November 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow, gone already. More proof that this isn't really a discussion, it's a lecture. LOL.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
labrat, your knowledge of the law is sorely lacking, therefore your analogy holds no water. you can't convict on the basis of circumstantial evidence or "perhaps" or "probably" or "preponderance" alone.
no one here is saying saddam is a good guy. clearly, he's a terrorist and murderer guilty of a huge number of war crimes against his own people. HOWEVER, there is ZERO evidence he was at all connected to 9/11, and there is ZERO reason for us to invade an entire nation because "oh, they might have WMDs." when in fact, as we know now, they don't have WMDs at all; and the myriad lies this administration pulled to encourage the American public to support the war, are finally coming to light.
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
do all of you bush-supporting, america-loving fanatics also support the constitution, the very framework that holds up this country? i would hope so. and if so, do you realize that this particular war is blatantly UNCONSTITUTIONAL? completely and totally illegal in the way it was started and waged? how is that okay? how do you justify it? or can you just admit your hypocrisy?
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
also interesting to note:
why is it that the folks who seem the most vengeful, the most supportive of the current war, were NOT there on 9/11? (mo, i didn't know you worked in the towers. wow. i'm so glad you're okay.) i was in lower manhattan when the planes hit and the buildings fell; i was covered in ash for days.
i don't live in new york anymore, but i still consider nyc my city; and it's where i ultimately want to settle down in the future. i fully realize 9/11 was an attack on america, specifically on american imperialism, militarism, etc (you can say it was an attack on "freedom," but look at the targets - world trade center, pentagon), but being in new york that day, experiencing the horror with fellow new yorkers; it really *felt more like an attack on new york city itself. new yorkers are forever bonded together because of that deceptively beautiful tuesday morning in 2001.
i'm not saying there are NO new yorkers who support the war - obviously that would be an incorrect assertion. however, i've definitely noticed that the most vengeful and righteous pro-iraq war americans, live outside of new york city.
dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
Heiwalove, some great points.
I was not in NYC that day, because I'd already moved away, but of course other friends and family were affected in a very direct way (1 died in towers).
I would move back today if only hubby would agree to move, which he wont.
DLL
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 78
posted
Well heck, here I thought I knew something about the law! Well, just shows to go ya, sometimes we're not as smart as we think we are, maybe standing too close to the problem, can't see it. I'm practicing speed reading but dozed off reading your post, seemed like I was reading the same thing over and over, maybe day after day, maybe it was another leftie, ya'll all look alike ya know. A box of matches and this wild scary look, makes one want to carry a silver cross and a wooden stake or was it a wooden cross and......
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
Hey Lymedad,
Sorry to see you go. I'll see you over in medical and general
Tony Z
I finally sent you a response to the PM
Heiwalove,
you said: "do all of you bush-supporting, america-loving fanatics also support the constitution, the very framework that holds up this country?"
"or can you just admit your hypocrisy? "
Yes I do Support Bush.
Yes I do Love America.
Yes I do support the Constitution.
And NO I am not a fanatic or a hypocrite.
Are you?
Best wishes everyone!
~Missy
p.s.
Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean you are right and I am wrong..or that I am right and you are wrong..it mean we disagree. Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)![[tsk]](graemlins/tsk.gif)
![[dizzy]](graemlins/dizzy.gif)
![[woohoo]](graemlins/woohoo.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
lol![[bonk]](graemlins/bonk.gif)
![[confused]](graemlins/confused.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[hi]](graemlins/hi.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[spinning smile]](graemlins/spinsmile.gif)
![[lol]](graemlins/lol.gif)
I laughed so hard my husband came over to read what I was laughing at and he too started laughing. As I too have been called " uneducated, misinformed, a mindless flag waver, " to name a few... simply because I disagree with a few posters over here.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
) and yet I dare to disagree with others on this board.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic