Topic: I got this in a Email :WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS?
treepatrol
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posted
I WOULD LIKE TO MEET THIS LADY
The lady that wrote this letter is Pam Foster of Pamela Foster and Associates in Atlanta. She's been in business since 1980 doing interior design and home planning. She recently wrote a letter to a family member serving in Iraq Read it!
WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS?
"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001? Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania? Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?
And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was"desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet? Well, I don't. I don't care at all.
I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.
I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia.
I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling, slashed throat.
I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.
I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.
I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.
In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.
When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.
When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.
When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.
And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and --
you guessed it, I could not have said this any better myself!
If you agree with this view point, pass this on to all your e-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior! If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great country.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
lymebrat
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posted
Hey Tree,
I passed it on.
~Missy
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
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dontlikeliver
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I am not a member of any religious group.
The 'Islamic people' did not bring war to our shores - a few people did, who happened to be muslims. The few people responsible for that particular attack are the people to go to war against, not the entire Muslim population.
That is very ignorant and unfair, I think. In fact, living in a largely white/christian country with a pretty large muslim population - and being seriously white myself, I am very aware of how the MAJORITY of muslims do NOT want to be associated with any such violence/war etc. And, they are suffering as a consequence of what A FEW did in the name of MANY.
Should any particular religious or ethnic group of people be retalliated against/or killed as punishment for what a few people of their ethnic/or (loosely termed/connected) religious group did? The people you speak of do not represent the majority of the group, but with messages like the one above, I would think it will encourage more hatred towards those who are innocent but judged guilty, by such a message, by association.
Where is that Osama Bin Laden anyway, the one that Bush promised to 'smoke out' from his hidey-hole? Surely, our intelligence is 21st century enough to do what promised?
DLL
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I'm concerned about this culture of hate that has been borne out of the tradgedies of our times.
I believe some of that was/is fostered by the tremendous amount of propaganda in this country.. mainly coming out of the White House. Accumulated facts and what has unraveled dispute much of what they have said by now, so I cannot understand the clinging to hate and racism.
but moreover it is a misinformed, anger based response.
It's frightening, and I have to say this kind of view is no better than Islamic extremist groups that think all Americans are pigs who deserve to die in the name of Allah.
Both ends of this spectrum are dangerous and deadly in my view. To our troops and to ourselves.
DLL has a good point.. there are many haneous acts perpetrated by extremists in the name of a group or culture, but by and large should not be used to condemn an entire race or creed... or to condone the killing and torturing of innocents...
After all, there have been several Christian movements, some of which was the biggest and bloodiest murder of millions.. all through history there are many examples of violence and 'Terrorism' .. pretty much from all religious groups (except Buddhists or I think Hindus )
There are Muslims around the globe, and in the Middle East.. who abhor these acts. The vast, vast majority do.
I also feel that the torture issue is a very serious one.
The fact that it is not only comdoned but ordered by this administration is beyond comprehension.. but all things regarding this War have taken us back centuries.
Doesn't anyone consider the state of mind and the suffering instilled into the poor soldiers involved in these acts?
That's where my mind goes, as well as the War crimes of this administration, and the abuse that is by and large not laid on the Terrorists who attacked us. Osama is probably layung low and driving a cab in the East Village for now.. Terror cells globally are expanding and have acts by our government to point to as the best recruitment of more of the generation witnessing the death of scores of thousands of innocents.
I have never read a more frightening piece of writing.. because it seems many feel this way if it's become a 'chain letter'.
I hope more folks are looking deeper! These attitudes are very dangerous.
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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lymie tony z
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It never ceases to amaze me...
tree's post explicitly states that it is radicals and extremists that this person is angry with....
Not the whole muslim religion....
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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dontlikeliver
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Actually, the first line - and first impression - says:
"Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shoresPosts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
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You see, not only does Mo not realize who caused 911, but she has sympathy for them. That's evident in position on the war on terror....even her position on leaving the Iranian's alone "so they'll behave".
This letter has nothing to do with anything but the reality of what's happening, and the fact that the far left can't see it and has sympathy for them is extremely frightening.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
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nothing to do with sympathy for extremists who attack and kill innocents -- that goes for those orchestrating these kinds of acts from the United Sates or in the Middle East, (or Africa, Palastine or anywhere else for that matter....)
my comments have to do with the dangerous and faulty thinking that comes out of the culture of hate on both sides.
It's concern that blind hatred never yeilds effective resolve. That a more intelligent handling of a very serious problem is required in order to begin to resolve it.
What's gone on in Iraq is well prooven to have nothing to do with 911, and has only fostered greater threat.
Just because we've killed more innocent Iraquis by our administrators command, dishonesty, and miserably failed planning, ect.. just because more of them have died (like 30-40 times more) .. doesn't mean we are safer.
Quite the contrary.
My point is the population needs to educate themselves and look away from solely White House messages, and those who echo them..
long enough to take an objective view -- just as other populations must as well. Isn't that the core ideal of 'democratic republic' ?
The above sentiments just feed the culture of hate and ignorance which breeds violence that not only won't solve conflict, or serious problems like Terrorism.. it will only fan the flames.
To state that that means I have sympathy for Terrorists ignores great deal..and is along the same line of exclusionary thinking. No sympathy for Terrorists -- just a dire need for effective handling and intelligent focus by the American government. Honesty and forthcoming to at least some reasonable degree would help as well.
I also didn't say we should 'leave the Iranians alone so they will behave' .. but I get the sence that you don't actually read my posts.
--- I suppose Americans are wising up despite the limited media releases, since so many things have been so bad of late it's hard to ignore...
Since all the indictments, Katrina, the War results.. and the public uncovering of the administration's manupilation of intelligence going into Iraq..
64% of Americans question Bush's (and his admin's) integrity .. his approval rating is down to mainly his 'ulterior' agenda base.
Most moderates and some further to the right have gone public with dissapointment and/or anger...and at the very least tough questions.
The concerns ain't just 'far left' anymore..
Mo
[ 06. November 2005, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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dontlikeliver
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All this left right nonsense is just ridiculous. Especially, when looking in on the fishbowl from the wider world.
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heiwalove
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this is the most ignorant infuriating thing i have ever read.
my eyes spring hot tears, my heart aches raw and i can't even begin to formulate a coherent response.
lymie tony z
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yeah liver I read the first line too...
But I read the whole text which qualifies the opening statements and zero's in on the extremeists,radicals and zealots.
Furthermore the guys that rammed those planes were saudi arabians...who have been our supposed allies over there since the Shah back when most here were not out of diapers...being saudi's is'nt the reason they did it...being muslim extremists is more likely...
The children over there are schooled to hate americans or anyone that isn't a believer in the one tru God Allah...just like hitler youth...
How can little children hate us so much unless they are taught to hate us...like the extremist groups here in the states...like skinheads and the klan...
A line must be drawn or we'll all be bowing to the east.......it was'nt when the embassy was blown up or the barraks with the marines nor even when they attacked a Navy vessel...all of which are acts of war...
Wake up and smell the coffee.......this is war and those that don't see it are looking thru rose colored glasses. Having been in war I hate it...however, until mankind stops being stupid in general we'll always have it.
So maybe Irag and it's leader did'nt have WMD's or did'nt have a hand in 911... I'm sure they had a hand in some of the other attacks...especially on the Turks and some of their own people....
Go Grunts!! And Doggies...and swabbies....Hooray America...I Love you right or wrong.....zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nonsense, nonsense Mo. Also, when asked how you would deal with the Iranian crisis with nukes and their threats to Isreal, your response was to back off and leave Iran alone.....as if we're the ones forcing them to be bad. LOL. You said it, not me. Please be consistent.
I have zero respect for the Koran, and anyone that gets violent over steping on this book or whatever, is so insecure it's pathetic. Must not feel very sure about it if they're shaken so much by a material piece of paper. Personally I despise the Koran and everything it stands for....how women are treated, how infidels are to be treated, etc. If a Koran was cheaper than toilet paper, I'd stock up a six month supply.
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robi
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Violence as a way of achieving justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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heiwalove
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and the words of Dr. King have never been more true. thank you, robi. how desperately we need someone like him today.
quote:Originally posted by robi: Violence as a way of achieving justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys community and makes brotherhood impossible. It leaves society in monologue rather than dialogue. Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
And if we applied that to everything in the past, we would be speaking German and have no freedom right now. Violence is necessary sometimes, and if you don't believe so, be lucky that there are people around you willing to protect you for you.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
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24 - what exactly can you put forth to support your retort? 64% of Americans now question GWB's integrity.. therefore question the exact rhetoric you spew.. so, by now -- after all these years...can you justify, with specifics..how we (and the Iraqis) are protected as you state -- and the stance you take? I think it's about time.
Extremist imperialistic and violent actions can be derived from the Bible as well as the Koran..
(as a side note, I doubt you have read the Koran based on your post -- for you understand it as little as you do Dr. King -- and if you have read the Koran, you fail to note it's merits as well as the violence and the subservient references to women written in the Bible.. which if taken literally are, shall we say - also less than liberal..if taken quite literally.. also to be noted, women in Iraq had a great deal more worth and power even under SADDAM (as they themselves state!) than they do under the curent Constitution supported by the U.S. and borne out of the War !!)
As far as violence in the name of the Bible..the Crusades come to mind..and (just one example)some Christian evangalistic views today regarding the people of the Middle East, and what they are worth.. (as eluded to in this thread) yet, at times it strangely turns -- and the War is then also supported under the guise of 'saving them' so then they they are worthless unless 'Democratized' and/or 'Christianized' .. as Doctor Phil would say:
'How's that working for ya??'
The insurgency is stronger and death runs consistant..moreso in recent months.
Which is it folks?? Are we demolishing until they are reformed to your liking -- or saving them? Be honest....
Violence is at very specific times necessary, but ONLY when the calling is clear and with honest motivation, planning and and results. U.S. violence in the Middle East holds none of these criteria.
As far as extremism in either religion..do those views then render the entire book no better than toilet paper? Is hatred and violence any better coming from 'your side' rather than the other?
This had been prooven over and over again throughout history.
Hatred and violence destroy all hope of progression and the sufferers by and large are the innocents who do not partake in either.. as well as the young men and women discarged and sent to death with lies...told they are 'protecting God and honor'.. the leaders on both sides are evil.
The War on Iraq us documented as being conspired well before they even went to Congress with the manipulated 'intelligence'.. and my point was...this admin is gearing up to do the same in Iran and Syria.
THAT kind of action is what needs to stop. It's criminal in a World order sort of manner.
Imperialism. Operating on further imperialistic action with Iran or any other country puts us and the World in danger of a nuclear War.
Period.
Go back to my post on Iran and re-read it. While you're at it, look at the facts surounding Iraq and the unConstoitutional operations.. seems everyone outside of some 35% of Americans, as well as the rest of the World -- have already done that.
Mo
[ 07. November 2005, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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robi
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Ya know ...... I realy can't argue politics, nor do I care to. I do belive that violence is not the way.
I belive the way is to help and seek understanding of one another. That inludes our famailies, neighbors, those of different beliefs, religons, countries.
Violence an only eventually lead to mass destruction. It is not that way .....
If you feel you must argue for killing and violence I am sorry .........
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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lymie tony z
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We're not safer since the war huh?
When since 911 have we been attacked?
Other countries have but we have not! That ought to tell you something.
If you guys that knock the USA were living in almost any other country that isn't democratic...you would'nt have a head to talk out of long...
The Koran...does not preach violence unless violence is visited upon muslims. Maybe you ought to read it again or for the first time.
Perhaps the embargo or trade restrictions placed on IRAQ caused too many people to go hungry get sick and die...perhaps that's what Osama was trying to preach to us. It was the world trade center...hmmmm...could that have had any significance?? Ya think! Perhaps Osama wanted saddam out cuz he was trading oil for something other than food.... Now that we did it...he's leaving us alone...
Possible just possible.....it would be nice to live as Jesus did and love all even enemies... I fear we(mankind) has'nt figured that out yet...and unless and untill it does worldwide I'm glad I'm an American...
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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dontlikeliver
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I really take offence at the insinuation that anyone (who is American) but, who disagrees with the way things are going right now, is anti-American or does not 'love being American'.
Perhaps it is for the very reason that we are NOT anti-American that we oppose the way our American leader(s) are handling the situation.
We - in the WEST - not just America - there is more to the world than just America are not safer now. If anything we are less safe, because of what has/is happening in Iraq, more anti-American terrorists will be made.
So, is the solution to making more terrorists - make more war?
I have a sneaking suspicion that GWB doesn't ask himself 'what would Jesus do'? But, of course, he does claim that God speaks to him, which is interesting, because other people who claim God spoke to them and then proceeded to kill someone, and I don't mean killing terrorists in retaliation or self-defence, I mean killing innocent people who are not terrorists, regardless of their religion, is usually safely locked up somewhere.
I suppose if we just go to war with just about anyone, there won't be anyone left on the planet and at least it will be peaceful and a fresh start.
Alternatively, we will have a world (we already kind of do) that is not very nice to leave our children [in].
I agree that the Bible is not exactly an advertisement for women's lib either. Find me a religion that is.......doubt there is one.
Because I have said what I've said, does NOT mean that I love terrorists, or defend their actions. Of couse, I do NOT. My question is only - are WE doing the right thing in response to terrorist attacks? What is the right thing? I am not sure. But, I don't think we're doing it now.
DLL
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robi
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Just for the record ........... I amglad I amanAmerican and I do not supprt what our contry is doing right now.
If you think the lack of medical care we experience and the war for oil are unrelated you have your head in the sand. These are both fueled (no pun intended) by the greed of the rich and powerful. That includes our dear president.
robi
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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lymebrat
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I know, I know.... I'm a brat, hence my name lol
I still don't understand how one person writing what They feel about a situation, always turns into a battle over here. It's the same old same old....
I haven't been in off topic for months, and I've only been back about a week, but I knew for sure who would have an issue with this post. lol!
I happen to agree with some of what this person wrote and I passed it on...not as a "chain letter", but as an interesting take on how this person, views this situation.
I can't sit here and say that the author of this piece was right or wrong...how can I judge someone else's opinions? LOL
Just my 2 cents...
~LymeBrat
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Hey LB.. aren't topics here open for discussion? If not, I would assume they wouldn't be posted. The topic of Iraq in particular is important to all of us, as what is happening now will effect pur future and generations to come. It's not a matter of telling someone their 'opinions are wrong'. These kinds of (dangerous) messages are everyones business, I should think.. since we are all profoundly impacted by what is happening.
Tony Z ..Osama himself had declared the attacks are revenge for suffering inflicted in the Middle East over many years by the U.S. and it's allies.
That's exactly how the extremists are interpreting/explioting the Koran -- I agree.
This rhetoric statement 'It (this War) is working, see...we haven't ben attacked' isn't a strong arguement..
London and Madrid being attacked should be of great concern.. biological warfare .. which is difficult to initially detect, should also be of great concern..
Our government is failing miserably in protecting our shores..and we've seen Homeland Security at work recently and they are less than effective.
AlQaeda is notorious for having great patience and planning in these things. They revel in that...they are in no big rush, and don't go off shooting from the hip like cowboys. They do not mind waiting and taking a long time to plan. They don't operate like military.
AGAIN -- the Bush administration and it's supporters are lacking in perception and understanding of the Terrorist groups that attacked us here, as well as Middle Easterners relations, interests and views.
How can they successfully fight an enemy they do not understand...not to mention one that is no where near Bagdad?
Al Qaeda is a strong global network now, where that was not the case before the War. This makes things considerably less 'safe'. Each day in Iraq remaining on the path we are on now, our administration unwilling to concede there have been major mistakes made and how then to fix them..each day, each week, month, fuels their resolve.
Here's an article from this past summer that goes into specifics regarding whether we are 'safer' because of this War..just because another 911 has not occured here yet.
(also if you follow polls, the polls regarding the War and Bush's integrity have plummeted in the past few months.)
*************************************************
washingtonpost.com
Iraq War Hasn't Made United States Safer
Polls Indicate Americans Agree
By Terry M. Neal washingtonpost.com Staff Writer Monday, July 18, 2005
Americans are willing to spare no expense to ensure their safety. Thus the bill for the war in Iraq, which is soaring well into the $200 billions, would not be an issue at all if most people felt the essential policy -- making America safer -- was being met.
But apparently, fewer and fewer Americans believe this is the case. And this is becoming an even greater problem for President Bush, whose reputation has taken a hit. In the latest Gallup poll, taken shortly after terrorists struck London this month, the number of people who say the war in Iraq was not worth it climbed to 53 percent (compared to 44 percent who believe it was). Perhaps more significantly, only 40 percent of Americans think the war has made the United States safer from terrorism, compared to 52 percent who believe it has made America less safe.
These numbers represent an astonishing turn of events from the days leading up to the war through the president's battleship photo-op declaration of victory more than two years ago.
The president was only partly correct that day. America and its allies had won the battle to remove Saddam Hussein. But the war was just getting started.
Meanwhile, Iraq has surged ahead of "economy and growth" as the leading concern among Americans. And approval of the president's handling of Iraq has dropped five points from an already low 44 percent a month ago, compared to 55 percent disapproval, according to a new Wall Street Journal/NBC poll.
The war in Iraq was billed as a war of necessity, an effort to make the nation safer. Even after the justification for war evaporated, many of the president's supporters argued that it accomplished its purpose -- the United States had not been attacked again after 9/11.
The terrorist attacks in London shattered some of that argument. While the United States wasn't attacked, its closest ally, Great Britain, was. And it was attacked in a way that struck home to many Americans, a fact evidenced by the jump in poll numbers of people who say they believe America will be attacked by terrorists in the near future.
So the question is, did Iraq make us safer?
In his best-selling book "America the Vulnerable: How Our Government Is Failing to Protect Us From Terrorism," Stephen Flynn, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and a former U.S. Coast Guard commander, argues essentially that Iraq was a "phony war" based on the president's oft-repeated assertion that America is "fighting the terrorists abroad so we don't have to face them at home."
Every nation, even one as rich as the United States, has finite resources. And America is spending large portions of its resources, both in terms of human and economic capital, fighting a conventional war against a nation-state that does not address America's biggest vulnerability -- its openness to unconventional attacks by terrorists who don't respect borders.
America remains astonishingly vulnerable to attacks from al Qaeda, which has morphed under Bush's watch, from an organization to a worldwide movement, Flynn argues.
"The degree to which the Bush administration is willing to invest in conventional national security spending relative to basic domestic security measures is considerable," Flynn argues in an article he wrote for Foreign Affairs magazine based on his book.
"Although the CIA has concluded that the most likely way weapons of mass destruction (WMD) would enter the United States is by sea, the federal government is spending more every three days to finance the war in Iraq than it has provided over the past three years to prop up the security of all 361 U.S. commercial seaports."
Flynn accuses the administration of a "myopic" focus on conventional military forces at the expense of domestic security. He draws this comparison: "In fiscal year 2005, Congress will give the Pentagon $7.6 billion to improve security at military bases. Meanwhile, the Department of Homeland Security will receive just $2.6 billion to protect all the vital systems throughout the country that sustain a modern society."
I called Flynn this week to ask him if the nation's priorities were so horribly skewed, why hadn't America been attacked again? And perhaps couldn't it be surmised that the terrorists attacked Madrid and London instead of, say Washington or New York, because it was easier to do so?
Flynn argues that this would be an improper conclusion to draw.
Here's the gist of the argument he gave me: Al Qaeda and al Qaeda-inspired terrorists are patient. They seek maximum bang for the buck, so to speak. As they did in Madrid and London, the terrorists build a three-cell unit. The first is the leadership or operations cell. The second is the reconnaissance team, which scouts potential targets for risk and reward. And the third is the action cell, which carries out the attack.
Building this sort of operation can take many years, and the risks are high. And once the action unit attacks, it creates an instant forensics trail that "creates an operational security problem. If you use it for a relatively low-end thing, you put your organization at risk for little gain and you have to start over again."
In London, investigators learned much about the attackers quickly, just as American investigators did after 9/11. It could take the terrorists years to recover in London, as it has in America. But they will be back, Flynn argues, because there will always be enough "angry young men who can possess powerful weapons of destruction" to target a nearly endless supply of soft targets.
Iraq has not changed that equation one bit, Flynn argues. It has only diverted resources from the more pragmatic approach of targeting and hunting down terrorists around the world and, even more important, bolstering domestic security.
Flynn does not argue that every soft target could ever be protected by the government. But he does say that the administration has done shockingly little to prioritize threats and protect such resources as nuclear plants, domestic military bases, the electric grid, the water supply and private-industry chemical plants near major metropolitan areas.
Flynn is not antiwar. Afghanistan was a proper target, he said, because terrorists were running their operations there and the government was protecting them.
The U.S. administration and its hawks are stuck in a "state-centric perspective, cold war idea that deterrence is about overwhelming power and offense. But that has nothing to do with the overwhelming reality of this threat."
In his Foreign Affairs article, Flynn wrote that "the United States is fighting the war it prepared for in the twentieth century, rather than the one that is being waged upon it by al Qaeda ... the Pentagon is executing its long-standing forward defense strategy, which involves leapfrogging ahead of U.S. borders and waging combat on the turf of U.S. enemies or allies. Meanwhile, protecting the rear -- the American nation itself -- remains largely outside the scope of national security even though the September 11 attacks were launched from the United States on targets within the United States."
Bush's critics argue that Iraq was made politically possible by the natural urge to punish someone for the travesty of 9/11. Iraq might have sated an emotional response, but it did little to address the pragmatic problem of how to make America safer.
For a long time, many Americans believed that Iraq was directly involved in 9/11, and that the war was a part of the effort to vanquish the terrorists who attacked us that day. The fact that few people believe that today may have much to do with the president's declining popularity and the declining confidence in his honesty.
� 2005 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive
***note.. 64% question the honesty at this time, and the investigations have not even been made public yet.
there is no evidance we are safer, and a great deal more that terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda are thriving around the globe.
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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dontlikeliver
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posted
Everyone is going to have THEIR TAKE on this email/chain letter thingy.
Therefore, some of those people will read it as I have, which is that it is very racist (basically that it's OK to slaughter anyone of the same race or religion as a group of terrorists) - and going to fuel a fire that can only lead to hell for all of us!
I don't know what possesed me to come over to Off Topic again. It's pointless and probably just causes us more stress which isn't good for Lymies.
DLL
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lymebrat
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posted
Mo,
Of course all topics are open for discussion..did I imply otherwise? I didn't mean it to sound like that, sorry if that's how you took it.
All I said/meant was I liked some of what this author wrote, and I don't think I or others need a lecture from those who don't.
It just seems too bad that when someone posts or agrees with something that was posted here.... (that isn't popular with other posters ), they get a lengthy post in return, outlining all the bad and negative in the world.
Or asked to take a deeper look at things...implying that if we did, we'd see things differently..or in other words the way they see them.
It's like posters who do this, think that those of us who agree with anything this author wrote, must be unaware of what is going on....
Well guess what, we aren't. We are very aware, we just disagree. Does that make you right and me wrong? Or me right and you wrong??? NO, it just means we see things differently.
I am very aware of what is going on in the world and I still agree with some things this author wrote..and golly gee wiz...I even have a college education and I'm a teacher too..go figure. LOL!
~Missy
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
I think you're misunderstanding LB.. and yes, I assume neither you or Tree wrote this proposed chain letter but even if you did..
it's a discussion.. so folks put something out there.. and then {perhaps) back it up with ideas or considerations..
then someone else may agree or counter that..
again, hopefully..with some ideas or considerations, info.. or not.. it's up to them.
I now feel I have to again clarify that because I post information, concerns, ect that does not agree with the topic post header.. and go into reasons why.. I must clarify I am not giving a lecture, or saying you are unaware..those who are aware, please discuss! That's about all I am looking for. OK??
I am posting questions and information..in this case objecting strongly to these views as dangerous to all of us, and I posted why I believe that.
If you think they aren't..you can post why..or not.. totally up to you..
but please do not criticize or twist my reason for posting, or others here who have posted in oitrage at this piece. I (nor they) are commenting on anyone personally.. (dejavou we've been through this before, lol)
It's not a personal dig to counter a view and press for justification, or even some thought..on a view .. especially one as strong and IMO dangerous as this one --
These views and the subject of War is important to all of us, and on topic. We are all free to post whatever we wish.. so long as it's on topic...not on eachother for posting whatever we decide to.
I have no interest in discussing anything but the topics themselves..
[ 07. November 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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posted
Well, for some it's a discussion. For others it's a lecture on their mighty tall soapbox. And the other thing that's funny is that some seem to think that whoevers posts the most words in a post:
1. Has the most facts (even though it's some left wing hack job EDITORIAL, not hard news).
2. Is the smartest.
3. Has more time and attention to convince the lost.
4. Can wear down those that have different views.
5. Thinks that everyone actually has time to read for hours.
6. Thinks that everyone actually does read for hours.
7. Thinks that everyone is excited to read their next novel.
8. Thinks that their next novel will be effective in converting the lost.
9. Knows that most people don't have the time to respond to every single point they make in their novel.
10. Thinks that if they have the last word on any point (nobody responds to it), they're automatically right.
In reality (and what they teach in business school), those that make their points clear and concise, to the point, easy to read and understand, are the ones that are most effective in getting people to read their words, and most effective in changing a point of view......or at least causing someone to re-think their position.
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posted
Ah..and there we go, right on cue.. No address on topic, just personal.. Hey -- isn't this spot on the issue just raised??
Interesting to note is who will not have a problem with this outright accost..
clearly a party line exception and that is a shame, seems there are different expectations for diferent 'party's' -- at least in the past -- I sicerely hope that we have grown and that has changed (??)
Afeterall, LB, you simply posted that you were endorsing at least part of this chain letter by passing it on -- your perogative surely -- and I addressed the e-mail and challanged it's content...not you..
yet my posts are deemed 'nonsence' above..
I have no problem with that, but I just wanted to point that out in light of your concerns that folks not be denegrated -- Seems caling my post nonsence might be in that relm? I dunno ---
.. also, none of the 'meat' of any of the counter posts has even been acknowledged for the past several entries simply the jabbing ensues... that is a shame folks..
these isues are way bigger than any one of us.
in any event..
trying to bring this one back in the vicinity of topic..because anything else is useless banter IMO..
Seems the Dems are getting up off their butts to join in investigative questioning of this admin as the vast majority of public opinion demands --
Let's just talk Iraq --- please? If convictions exist and hold water, I would think there would be plenty to say on topic, why the de-railing of the thread??:
Democrats issue demands for Iraq intelligence probe 08 Nov 2005 00:00:00 GMT
Source: Reuters
WASHINGTON, Nov 7 (Reuters) - Democrats on Monday demanded that the Senate interview key government officials and exercise subpoena power while examining how the Bush administration used prewar Iraq intelligence in the run-up to the 2003 invasion.
As a bipartisan task force prepared for a week-long series of meetings on the intelligence question, Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said the administration should be prepared to turn over important documents to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
"Now that the Republicans have agreed to conduct an investigation, the next step is making sure the right questions are answered," said the Nevada Democrat.
But Republicans accuse their Democratic adversaries of using the Iraq war for political gain by suggesting that President George W. Bush and other administration officials may have misused intelligence to make their case for war.
"The Democrat leaders' latest accusation that the administration has manipulated intelligence and exaggerated the threat is nothing more than an effort to use the war in Iraq for political gain, and that is shameful," Republican Sen. John Cornyn of Texas said in a floor speech.
The Senate intelligence committee completed the first phase of its review of Iraq intelligence in July 2004 when it issued a scathing report about the quality of information that claimed Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. No such weapons have ever been found.
At the time, lawmakers promised a second phase to examine other issues including whether Bush administration officials misused intelligence to make its case for war. But that segment of the review has not been completed. ((after all this time))
Last week, Democrats accused Republicans of stalling tactics and imposed a rare closed session to force the majority to complete the review.
The Senate set up a bipartisan task force of six senators to look into the second phase of the investigation in meetings that begin on Tuesday. The panel must report on the progress of the investigation by Nov. 14.
Republicans say the second phase of the investigation was already proceeding before last week's political confrontation. But Democrats accuse their Republican colleagues of trying to prevent a full investigation of the issues, saying that as recently as two weeks ago, an intelligence committee agenda for the remainder of 2005 showed no meetings on the probe.
Task force members including Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, the intelligence panel's Republican chairman, will to try to find common ground between the parties on how the remaining probe should be conducted.
[ 08. November 2005, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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lymie tony z
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posted
Yo read into it whatever you want....you will and have anyway... All I said was I am glad to be an American...me I am glad I am an American...it was a statement not an accusation....
So having not been attacked isn't a strong argument??? Then what is? Forget I asked...I feel relatively safe...
Yeah I know we'll probably be attacked in the future...it's the same tactics we used in the revolutionary war...but gosh...we(the present military minds) don't understand their enemy... Come on now...
Whenever we are attacked again it will probably be when a democrat is in the office...it happened before but Clinton was too busy with his head paige...LOL to do anything about it...
It does'nt matter folks...like I said, if you remember...we got rid of the Dems and elected a bunch of republicans...what ground have we gained??? Not much!
We have to send a message to Capitol Hill...enough is enough...we need a third party not tied to anything or anyone....the little guy...the poor and working poor(middle class)...need a voice... Mo you keep asking for material to validate what we think and say...we don't need it...we read and am aware of both sides...we simply don't post it cuz we know it won't help to change your mind...we're too sick to bother...we have our own opinions and voice them in a concise manner...
Most lymies can't read and comprehend and digest all that print anyway...I know it nauseates me whenever I try to read a lot on here...not because you're nauseating...it's just a fact of lyme neuro brain life.....
perhaps ignoring it all would be better... See brat not much has changed...you're right SSDD.
[ 08. November 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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dontlikeliver
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posted
Yo read into it whatever you want....you will and have anyway... All I said was I am glad to be an American...me I am glad I am an American...it was a statement not an accusation....
Good. But, it seemed to infer that those that disagree with your stance are not.
So having not been attacked isn't a strong argument??? Then what is? Forget I asked...I feel relatively safe...
It's a good reason to defend yourself (attack back), yes, but in our case we did not go to Iraq to attack those that attacked us. There was and is no proven connection there.
Yeah I know we'll probably be attacked in the future...it's the same tactics we used in the revolutionary war...but gosh...we(the present military minds) don't understand their enemy... Come on now...
Whenever we are attacked again it will probably be when a democrat is in the office...it happened before but Clinton was too busy with his head paige...LOL to do anything about it...
Again, this is not just about the USA or Democrat/Republican.
It does'nt matter folks...like I said, if you remember...we got rid of the Dems and elected a bunch of republicans...what ground have we gained??? Not much!
Again, this is not just about the USA or Democrat/Republican.
We have to send a message to Capitol Hill...enough is enough...we need a third party not tied to anything or anyone....the little guy...the poor and working poor(middle class)...need a voice...
Wow, I agree!!
Mo you keep asking for material to validate what we think and say...we don't need it...we read and am aware of both sides...we simply don't post it cuz we know it won't help to change your mind...we're too sick to bother...we have our own opinions and voice them in a concise manner...
Most lymies can't read and comprehend and digest all that print anyway...I know it nauseates me whenever I try to read a lot on here...not because you're nauseating...it's just a fact of lyme neuro brain life.....
perhaps ignoring it all would be better... See brat not much has changed...you're right SSDD
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posted
In my opinion as well, this has long since blown past a Dem/Repub issue.
It's way bigger than that!
Tony Z.. I agree with this as well:
We have to send a message to Capitol Hill...enough is enough...we need a third party not tied to anything or anyone....the little guy...the poor and working poor(middle class)...need a voice...
Except that the War is the most pressing issue for all Americans, backed by mounds of other problems, IMO that's the most critical, of course.
No, I don't believe it is a strong arguement in support of the Iraq War that we haven't been attacked here since 911 (that we know of).. based on the reasons I stated above.
There's just allot more to consider.
Oh, and to those copmplaining about posted articles.. if you aren't interested in reading articles or considering their content, you do have that handy dandy scroll button at your disposal
I have to say there are allot more users/readers on the forum that might like to read some stuff.. some people also have trouble opening links due to dial up issues, whatever.. But again, feel free to just skip my stuff if you aren't interested in discussion.
Mo
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lymie tony z
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posted
Well now that we agree on something...
Please tell me just what the big picture is that I am missing?
if it's not a rep,Dem, or USA thing...please tell me what it is...
What is is?
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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dontlikeliver
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posted
I received the same above email forward message last night from a friend (who has since followed that email up with an apology to all the recipients after having re-read an thought about it). One of the other recipients of the email replied to the sender as follows, I have changed the names for their privacy.
"Wrapping one's self in a cloak of patriotism while lowering the standards of ethical humanitarian behavior (and breaching the Geneva Convention) to match or outdo the fanatics who oppose our occupation of their country after waging an illegal invasion of their sovereign nation
(screwed up as it was, Iraq had no proven connection to the 9-11 attack) just proves the effectiveness of the Neocon (operative syllable "CON") propaganda machine (whose actions have been called illegal by the GAO (Government Accountability Office).
Frankly this message gave me quite a stomach ache after having viewed the Rainews documentary aired in Italy yesterday (seems like the reality is that these people in Fallujah who were "melted" by the US offensive there last year were the result of our new improved "napalm", MK77, not white phosphorous as is rumored).
What was the reason our esteemed administration used to lie our way into their coveted war before the UN? Weapons of mass destruction?
Well it seems the pot is as black as the kettle. Our anger and frustration should be directed at these lying, war profiteering bunch-of-scumbags orchestrating this travesty on the world stage.
I am currently ashamed of America's behavior and this administration does not represent me. Now that's something to ponder!
Wow John, I hope that you don't actually support the sentiment layed out in that piece of crap you sent me.
I'm sorry if I sound hostile right now, but you REALLY touched a nerve that is absolutely raw right now.
I am currently strongly considering my continued residence in this country anymore, because what America represents today, I can't support.
I am scared to travel internationally with a US passport. I am nauseated by how bad of a world citizen America is today.
My values, integrity and conscience won't let me feel differently. It saddens me." Kate
[ 11. November 2005, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Lou B ]
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lymie tony z
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posted
[ 11. November 2005, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Yo liver...you mistakenly commented on my statement in this thread as an inference that questioned your patriotism. You were wrong and no apology to me from you was forthcomming...that's ok...
However by not stating one loves this country and continually bashing it can also be inferred that one is not all that happy to be an American.
You stated you don't like any particular religion. You don't like America(inferred by your own remarks), and you obviously don't like liver...so might I inquire...what do you like?
Mo you said you don't like covert attacks...yet by your continuous postings of information and remarks that those that don't agree with you must come from the "uninformed" can by some be inferred as an insult....
I submit to those that continue this assault on our nation and leaders should try another country in which to live.
Having been in the Navy I have seen other nations and was really glad to get back to the good old USA.
Oh yeah, we have our faults...but at least we can voice our thoughts and live...not so in other countries or nations.
So I say on this Veterans day...love it or leave it....
From one who has gone to war(I enlisted in 68 not drafted...because I believed in my country)and was honorably discharged from serving my country....
Unles you folks have a better proactive plan to suggest...all the negative, depressing bashing of MY country does no one any good...especially on lymenet where folks come to be encouraged and fortified and supported....
using profanity and or calling our fighting ladies whores should not be allowed on this net...
Calling the initial post bigoted,ignorant etc...is not allowed under present rules...
God Bless America and all my fellow Veterans on this day of celebration...not of war....but of service to OUR country....and the sacrifices that have been made.
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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dontlikeliver
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posted
Z,
Please refrain from putting words 'in my mouth' and putting your own twist on my posts, trying to distort their meaning.
I do not need to apologize for how I perceive a post. And, in fact, you are still appear to be saying the same thing, which is: anyone who disagrees with the current administrations tactics, and your personal view of the world, is unpatriotic. Why is that?
If you would have read, and understood my previous postings, you will have learned that in fact, I am saying the opposite of what you claim. That is, disagreeing with an administrations stance, is not unpatriotic and is just as patriotic, if not more patriotic, because if one did not care for one's country or fellow countrymen - then WHY WOULD ONE BOTHER WITH THAT??? Why would anyone stick their neck out and risk having it chopped off, if one did not care?
For arguments sake, did you like Clinton and agree with everything he did, and the way he did it???
If the answer is no, then should I have called you unpatriotic and anti-American during the Clinton years? (and no, before you jump to conclusions, that does not mean I was cheering him on through all his time in office either).
I never said I do not like religion. I stated that I am non-religious, as in I do not belong to any particular organized religion - there is a difference. (or non-organized for that matter). If I don't have a dog or cat, does that mean I do not like dogs or cats? No, it just means I do not have a dog or cat.
You are right in that my name infers that I do not like liver. Does the 'Z' mean you're asleep?
[ 11. November 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: dontlikeliver ]
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posted
These posts are never directed toward 'America'.
This is a tired old tactic!
Posting concerns and active opposition to the initial posting is most certainly allowed here, taunting and harassing individuals is NOT Z-man.
Information questioning our LEADERS actions and inactions is about as patriotic as it gets. ESPECIALLY NOW.
And if there were tangible facts, answers, TRUTHS that justify the actions/inactions in question and our leaders actions surrounding this War..
Then those questions would be ANSWERED easily, instead or those asking them dubbed 'unpatriotic'. You also would not have the need to constantly twist our posts into something we are not saying.
In my opinion, support for this War is about as un-American as we can get.
Secrecy in government is something all AMERICANS should not tolerate, under any circumstances.
Manipulating intelligence to make a case for War, and acting upon it unilaterally should NOT be tolerated by AMERICANS.
Stockpiling of plutonium, uranium, hundreds of tons of the stuff (talk about yer WMD's!!) and an administration interested in producing nuclear weapons, taking us back to danger levels globally that existed before the Cold War ended, and doing so for no better reason than POWER hunger.. should NOT be tolerated by Americans.
The continued rapid decrease of support and care for the poor, elderly, and the sick in this country while the richest enjoy not only insane profits, but continued increases in tax breaks ahould NOT be tolerated by Americans.
Setting up a Supreme Court that is poised to cow-tow to the wants exclusively belonging to the religious right ahould NOT be tolerated by Americans.
An administration that will not hold press conferances in which the public can simply ask questions..and operated behind doors all of the time, (as now we see this admin has not only outed a CIA agent because her husband exposed info they did not want the American public to know about, but also was conspiring to go to War befire they even presented the idea to Congress) should not be tolerated in AMERICA.
An administration that uses massive resources military, and the dear and IMO sacred lives of those willing to fight for our FREEDOMS, who lies to, manipulates, and abuses these men and women both by manipulation of intelligence, untent, and also HORRIBLE planning..***continuing is un-American in the most extreme way I can imagine.
Noone has any right to proclaim standing up for our country, standing up and holding our ELECTED leaders accountable is un-American..
In fact, take a look at your own views, and what what you support is doing to human beings and our World.
I'm proud to be an American, and willing to fight to expose corupt leadership of this wonderful country, before it collapses by their hand.
Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Abrams, Libby, Rove, Rumsfeld, DeLay.. are just a few of the most UN-American administrators we have ever had. They will go down in history as such, no doubt.. but everyone should be concerned about where they are taking us right now.. or we will wake up to a nuclear age that will be the end of life as we ever knew it for our kids.
A good deal of MODERATE Republican political figures are both distancing themselves from the White House, and partaking in closer looks at many things. Many figures even speaking publicly, then we have WAR VETERANS in large number protesting this administrations actions in Iraq, we have multiple political figures as well as former government officials, miltary experts, as well as numerous poeple who made their lifes work studying Middle east relations (!) the list of protestors is very long.. speaking out.
Are they all unAmerican, and only those waving flags and believing in this admin no matter WHAT, without accountability or question.. are American? That sounds more like Facism than Democracy.
Educate yourself. These things are written about by multiple non-Partison groups, including nuclear proliferation by OUR government..
Mo
[ 11. November 2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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heiwalove
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posted
as DLL said, dissent is a vital and necessary way to voice one's patriotism. it is ESSENTIAL to the democratic process as we know it, and is even outlined as such in the US constitution. stifle dissent, and we have fascism; which is precisely what GWB wants. have you read 1984 by George Orwell? frighteningly pertinent to today's world. he was just a couple decades off in his "fictional" predictions, really.
lymebrat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3208
posted
I know that you didn't mean it to come across this way, but it did. This is why I haven't been in off topic for so long...
Just because I and others don't agree, doesn't mean we need a lecture or a lesson, if you will..
Believe it or not, a person can be educated, even have a college degree and still disagree with you..lol!
Sorry I don't have the energy to debate, as this would be one I would love to give my all to.
But I am simply drained, as my daughter has Juvenile Diabetes and is very ill....
Things like this, become trivial, when faced with a child who has a life threatening illness, one where a too high or too low blood sugar, becomes and immediate threat to her health...
Debating/arguing about who agrees with the article this woman wrote, and who doesn't, just doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.
Especially when nothing ever changes over here... the same few will agree and the same few will not agree. Nothing I or anyone says, will change that.... at least it hasn't in the past 3 years
I hope you all have a Happy Holiday Season!!! I am starting a new support group for parents whose children have chronic illnesses and will be spending most of my free time there and over on LymeNet medical/general.
Best wishes everyone, see ya around:)
~Missy
Posts: 3154 | From NH , USA | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Things like this, become trivial, when faced with a child who has a life threatening illness, one where a too high or too low blood sugar, becomes and immediate threat to her health...
Hi LB --
That is so true. Our first priority is children and our family...health.
I know, I spent two years in that, which is right where you should be at times like this.
Luckily, we're out of danger zone, but still is our priority. I hope things get a little better every day for Mikayla.
On the rest of it, I only care for discussion, I expect folks to take it or leave it as to whether they want to do that on a thread. I reserve the right to have an oppositional view on certain topics, and always include reasons and info as to WHY.
I feel it is of great detriment to our country that an attitude of 'Left against Right' and there are certain very significant concerns some refuse to acknowledge or consider -- this division is a sort of Cancer in my view.
We've all been pitted against eachother and that causes allot of refusal to look at the problems themselves, and refusal to look at our present government objectively. Refusal to look at this War. More than sixty percent of Americans question these things regarding Iraq now, tho.. and as many doubt this admin's honesty -- so I figure they can be opened up over here by now.
I don't have the sentiments you suggest.. in fact, if I didn't care so much about what people thought or realize how we all impact eachother's welfare in our thinking on this subject, I wouldn't post on any of these topics. I'm concerned for all our kids (all of them, young and old, civilians and in the military) when it comes to present and the future and the impact of this time in history on their welfare.
I also do not feel these things are trivial (tho do fall behind personal health issues, of course).. Now that I am out of serious health danger mode (at least for now)..this subject is next on the list in concern for my children.
With sincerity and best wishes,
Mo
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lymie tony z
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Member # 5130
posted
Heck,
I did'nt know how to SPIN things around till I got here...
I only do it cuz you three do it...what's the matter...have I learned your game better than you taught it?
Whatever......
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Hey Mo, I think a lot of the trouble you're having is that your posts wander and are too long, and people only read a small portion. If you want good debate, you have to learn to be more concise and to the point. Otherwise you're just talking to yourself most of the time.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
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I've just recently joined the LymeNet board and have been reading mostly Medical posts, my 27 year old daughter has recently been diagnosed with LD, but I happened onto this thread.
I see that you were in Vietnam in 1968. I was in Northern I Corp on two separate tours, 66-67 & 67-68. I was with two different Seabee Units, NMCB9, Danang area and CBMU 301, KeSahn/Quang Tri.
After discharge from USN I enlisted again this time in the USAF, retired after 23 years - 26 years total service.
Just thought I'd say hi! and Welcome Home
LymeDad
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I've just re-read this entire thread for the third time and I have only a couple of thoughts. There just my thoughts and not intended to hurt anyone's ego, feelings or sensibilities.
I'm always amused at the writings of my so-called Liberal friends, as well as those Liberals who are not my friends. It appears to me that if you write longer responses, use bold faced type and regurgitate enough rhetoric, you'll convince someone, maybe even yourself, that you're more intelligent, more informed and therefore correct in your thinking.
The reason I read the entire thread three times is that each time I read it, all I could hear in my mind was BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.
Again, if I hurt anyone's feelings or bruised your egos, tough - deal with it.
Just my opinion!!
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
You can't hurt her feelings, been trying for years! Oh, and welcome, common sense sometimes runs short around here.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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Why are criticizms and critiques of individuals the only replies to the subject of Iraq?
24 -no matter the length, you seem to read nothing that isn't in perfectly line with your own pre-concieved notions.. and as far as being accused of lecturing, and of insunuating others are 'uneducated'..well, a considerable amount of Americans are not, certainly if they look to evening news as their only source.. I make that comment and stand by it refering to a considerable number of Americans, really by some fault of their own at this point in time.
You have to seek info in this day -- if any of you are up on the issues...then please do, if you like, talk about it. If I didn't assume you had thoughts, why would I post here? What puzzles me is that they are rarely expressed (on topic)..
It's funny, the ones coming down on this idea (and me) that voicing opposition to the War is some sort of 'superiority' thing -- the ones who say that the most are the least likely to ever address the actual subjects.
Food for thought..
in addition, with great reverence to our Veterans on board.. including you, LabRat, love of my life Tho you only like me when you've had a few, it seems..
..seriously, I revere your service..however each War, each conflict, and each administration is an isolated issue, is it not?
Unilateral, pre-emptive, pre-conspired War based on lies to Congress going in are just a few of the stark contrasts that come to mind.. and then there are the results..
There are a large number of Veterans (young and old) in staunch opposition of the Iraq War. Some who have returned, some from the Persian Gulf, some from Vietnam, WWII, ect..
There are also soldiers and families living on bases quoted as saying they CANNOT afford to question or hold this administration accountable for their handling of the War.. understandably so..of course they can't... and have said that they COUNT on civilians to do so. We can, we SHOULD -- and we do. For them. Answers and accountability are not too much to expect.
Mo
[ 13. November 2005, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Okay I'll take the bait, I'll say something "on-topic", but forgive me if I rattle on too much.
The topic was and is Pam Foster's comments concerning her letter to a family member serving in Iraq.
I applaud Ms Foster's question, "Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we"? I wonder if some folks are really clear on what it means to fight a war.
Regardless of your individual sentiments,ideas or misconceptions as to why we're in Iraq, the point is we are there. It's time we learned our lessons from previous conflicts/wars and stop giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
What do we think we're showing those who would do us harm in Iraq or here on our soil when we show such little regard for our Commander-in-Chief and those in his charge? Do we assume that the insurgents in Iraq are so stupid that they don't watch CNN or read the New York Times?
Do we assume that they believe we are country united in the fight to defeat terrorism when we are so divided in our politics and so willing to show the world our divisions?
Free speech is a wonderful concept we all hold dear, unfortunately freedom of any type is not free. There is a cost and obligation for those freedoms.
Lastly, please don't anyone here or anywhere else suppose they can speak for either our soldiers or their families. They can and will speak for themselves.
Our men and women in uniform are where they are by choice. They don't need your help, just your loyalty and your prayers.
That includes the highest ranking member of our military, the Commander-In-Chief.
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Mo, you ramble and ramble. You could summarize your points much quicker if you wanted. I only read a couple of paragraphs at the most because I can only stomach so much negative, pessimism and complaining....and I don't have the time anyway.
Lymenet Offtopic is not a part-time job for me, and I never plan to put it on my resume as great experience and as an accomplishment in life. LOL.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
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