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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
By far, one of the best and likely the best product I have ever used is Progurt from Progurt.com. This is a human-strain probiotic that you make into a yogurt and use daily.

For me, it increased energy even further, helped with vision, eliminated fungal issues, and improved overall circulation.

I've been rather impressed. Expensive, but thus far, quite worth it.
 

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Posted by Cold Feet (Member # 9882) on :
 
Scott, what's in it?!
_________________________________

What are the strains of bacteria in Progurt?

The strains of bacteria in Progurt are indigenous to the human gastro-intestinal tract, according to a Proprietary Formulation with Patents pending.
 

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Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
Can you make an allergen free version of it? Can it be made with almond milk instead of cow's milk?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
All the details are on the site I posted. They don't share which strains due to patents, etc.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Has to be made with cow's milk but they find that most people do fine once made into a yogurt with the bacteria.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
Do they say where they isolated the strains?

I'd REALLY like to know what strains they are.

I'm not crazy about ingesting things when I don't know what they are or where they came from.

It DOES sound interesting though.

I just went back & re-read your post. This helped your VISION? That's really great!!!! Do you know by what mechanism?

I wish I knew more about it so that I could do some research.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Contact the vendor.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
Can you make it with a different yogurt maker?

I already make my own, using a "Yogourmet" maker, organic whole milk and "GI Pro Health" starter. I leave it in the maker for 24h so that all the lactose is fermented away.

I would be loath to buy a whole new system but I would consider trying the Progurt starter next time I need to buy new starter.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Don't know. I use theirs. Their system is 70 dollars. Ask them - hopefully will be fine.

It isn't starter though with theirs- you have to keep using the sachets. It is expensive, but worth it I think
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
Relax Scott, please don't feel the need to be defensive with me. That's not what I was trying to say. I'm in relapse again so I may not be communicating my thoughts accurately.

Thank you for sharing your experience and I'm GLAD to hear that you've been finding it helpful.

I haven't been on my computer for months & am totally out of the loop. This is the first I've heard "Progurt" mentioned.

I just did a quick "google" and see that there seems to be a lot of talk about it. Especially on the MS forums.

It sounds like it's got potential. I'm just hoping that I wouldn't eat it & then find out that they cultured it from intestines because that would really be gross! LOL

I guess desperate times call for desperate measures and, if it resolved the neuro-issues, I would think that the benefit should outweigh the ICK factor.

I just can't help but wonder, since they don't seem to want to say where it comes from, if that COULD be the source.

Perhaps it's just my lyme-paranioia and it's purely proprietary secrecy......

If you find my sharing of my thoughts upsetting, I'll refrain and just keep them to myself. I certainly am not looking to stir up trouble.

I find it very frustrating that I have come to feel like I have to walk on eggshells any time I have a curiousity about anything that might vary from the mainstream. I remember now, THAT was why I had been avoiding reading anything CAM that looked like it might be interesting.

I have felt like I have to avoid reading ANY complementary/alternative posts to avoid stress and possible confrontation and I am definitely NOT anti-complementary/alternative.

I don't know whether your post was intended to be construed as hostile, but that is definitely how I first interpreted it.

If it was, it worked. I've felt hurt, defensive and even somewhat hostile myself, in trying to compose a reply just to try to clarify that I wasn't trying to be hostile in my previous post.

What a colossal waste of my time and energy all because I shared a thought.

I don't know why I've gotten myself sucked into this outpouring of emotion, but I have. I guess it probably has to do with my relapse.

Am I just being hypersensitive myself? Maybe.

Perhaps you hadn't intended to come off as rude & abrupt and I just misinterpreted. If that's the case, I apologize for the tantrum.

Nonetheless, I'm sure this is likely MY problem not yours and I'm guessing that right now avoidance is likely the safest measure for me.

Wishing you wellness,
Ali
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
I see you had already deleted the post that I found upsetting, so much of my post now makes no sense, but I'm too drained to try to edit right now.

Thank you for deleting it.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
It is cultured from intestines I suspect. So if that grosses anyone out and they would rather not benefit from the product, this product is likely not for you.

Most likely, the isolate the bacteria initially and then after that, they are grown in labs.

Do you know where they get half of the other probiotics on the market? Probably best not to look.

[ 03-17-2009, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: SForsgren ]
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was just cruel!!!!!!

I was rather hoping that they were cultured from soil organisms or something.

They've been culturing yogurt for a very long time. I'd REALLY rather NOT believe that the practice may have originated with some form of waste product or avenue of it's excretion.

If that's the case, PALLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE DON'T TELL ME!!!!!! In some cases, perhaps ignorance is bliss. Maybe I don't really want to know where the Progurt cultures come from either.

Now I'm going to have to see if I can find out where yogurt cultures really come from.

I wish I'd never thought about this because I can't imagine what I'd do if I found out something I didn't really want to know.

Maybe I should try to walk away & hope that my lyme-memory issues will make me forget that I was ever wondering about this. It could be safer for me that way.

I hope the OCD doesn't win out & make me look it up.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
How could "human strain" bacteria come from soil?
Don't assume it's just Progurt. Look at all your supps, probiotics, etc. You'll likely find lots of surprises.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
I caught the "human strain" verbage. That's what made me think that it was different than the others in that aspect.

Perhaps that would be the reason it might actually be more beneficial, but that is what inspired my heebie-jeebies. LOL

I was just reading Wikipedia - Probiotics. It has some interesting content.

There's a chart in there that lists probiotics that were actually proven effective in studies.

There's something in there about deaths with intestinal delivery in people with pancreatitis. That was something I didn't know about.

Also I think one recorded death in a critically-ill patient. I have to go back & read that again. I didn't think (recall) that probiotic use had any risks, though they seem to be few.

I also read that, once the probiota has been COMPLETELY depleted, it can not be repopulated with probiotic supplements and consumption would need to be maintained without discontinuance.

I thought that was VERY interesting. I wonder if they've tried actual repopulation with "human-strain" yet.

I think it would be worth overcoming the ICK-factor, if it could. I'm sure the cultures must be long-removed from their original source by now.....don't you think?

Sometimes my mind works in very strange ways.

Funny thing, I just felt compelled to go get some yogurt out of the refrigerator.

I think I'll have to go back and read more about the Progurt.

It's expensive, you said? Can you keep cultivating it from the yogurt you've already made or would you have to keep buying more of it?
 

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Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
Hi Scott

Thanks for sharing your experience of Progurt, and glad to hear you're getting a lot of benefit from it, it sounds interesting. Are you saying that it is likely the best pro-biotic yoghurt you have ever tried or were you talking about supplements in general?

Also I was just wondering what other probiotics have you tried? Have you ever tried kefir and if so does the progurt compare favourably to that too, in your experience?

Thanks a lot.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
I think you may be having too much fun grossing me out. LOL

I think I'm over it now, though.

I'm still not going to read my probiotic bottles to see if I hadn't made a previous correlation to the term "human-strain"!!
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
You cannot keep making from what you have made according to the company.

It is likely the best supplement in general that I have ever tried.

I've tried all of the major probiotics along the way. A long, long list. Done kefir also. No comparison.
 

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Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
Thanks very much for replying Scott, thats really interesting to hear.

All the best, take care.
 

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Posted by gemofnj (Member # 15551) on :
 
Scott,

How does it taste?


 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Reposted from another thread:

I've tried at least 10-15 different brands through the years, and Progurt has so far been the strongest. Dare I say, a probiotic gave me a herx.

Also I think that the price of Progurt matches the philosophy: instead of merely being a complement to other supplements or a buffer to antibiotics, the high-dose human strain is intended to be a primary treatment in and of itself. Also, 1 trillion CFU for 20 bucks comes out to $0.02 per 1 billion CFU. That comes out to $1/50 billion CFU, which is slightly more than the cost of other probiotics.. except it is the only human-strain probiotic I am aware. The cost makes sense to me.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
So far, I am also testing allergy-free to the Progurt.. this despite being "allergic" to milk. The vendor told me all the casein becomes denatured & the all lactose is converted to lactase during the incubation process. I have had some digestive problems after taking it, but they've dwindled down now and seem to be a result of gut repair.

I add it to museli/cereal/blueberries/cranberries and it tastes great!! I also add this multiglycidic syrup that acts as a prebiotic... who knew something this sweet could be so helpful, candida be damned!

It's really weird taking a supplement and feeling slightly indulgent at the same time..
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I believe the initial reaction i had was so severe because my biggest problem right now, says my doc, is fungus. The bombardment with probiotics during the first few days must've given the fungus a field day. Will see tomorrow if my doc finds a change w/r/t fungal infections
 

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Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
 
"You cannot keep making from what you have made according to the company."

Why would this be true?

Any other yogurt can be started using a sample, Kefir using the same grains. Why would "human GI bacteria" be any different?

What am I missing here?

I mean, suppose you only get half-a-trillion organisms per quart -- would that be the end of the world?

Or do none of the bugs make it through.

Has anyone tested this?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Call the company and ask. Just sharing my positive experience. I'll leave the rest to you all to do more research.
 

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Posted by Rumigirl (Member # 15091) on :
 
Scott,

This sounds wonderful! I trust your experience on this. How long have you been using it? How fast did you see results? And did you then reduce other supplements and remedies due to the good effects of the Progurt?

Lastly, if you had it all to do over again, would you go primarily with the Progurt, Bionic 880, and related modalities as opposed to abx? (I know this may be a difficult question, considering that it is hypothetical). Thank you, and sorry for so many questions!
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I saw some results within the first few days. I have not cut down yet, in fact, recently added more detox support.

I can't comment yet on the last question. Maybe in the future I'll have more thoughts about it but I don't want to suggest that antibiotics are not needed in some cases.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
When you say "expensive", could you be more specific please?

How much for a one month supply, for example?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
At the loading dose that I used, it ran about 600 for the first month and then tapers down to as low as 60 dollars a month.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks Scott and Joey....

Wow, that IS pretty pricey....

I assume you got this by ordering directly from the Progurt website (in Australia)?

Also, I did note that you can use goat's milk or soy milk, according to the website. It specifies 'sterile' milks, so not sure if raw goat's or cow's milk would be a good idea or not. They might have to say 'sterile' for legal reasons....
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
It doesn't work as well with non-cow milk per the company when I spoke with them on the phone. They suggest organic cow's milk.

I called them and placed the order via phone.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
Thank you Scott and Joey for sharing your experiences. I am following your blogs with interest!

I'm a firm believer in the gut-brain connection. I know when I accidentally eat something that doesn't agree with me (such as gluten), my neuro symptoms flare with a vengeance. It makes sense to me that a product like this might work.

I'm very intrigued by Progurt's claims but think I want to wait a bit before trying it myself. 600 USD per month is a bit rich for me right now...

[ 03-18-2009, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: zombie_mummy ]
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
It states that you can swallow the contents of the sachet with water.


Sachets

quote:

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The Progurt Sachet is the world's most powerful probiotic available.

Each Sachet contains a formulation of multiple strains of probiotic bacteria of human origin to enhance and strengthen the immune system. With over 1 trillion CFU capability in each single Progurt Sachet, bacteria never looked so good.

Each sachet can be made into a powerful probiotic yogurt or can be consumed with water.

Progurt improves health and wellbeing. Progurt initiates balance of gut flora - improving digestion, nutrition and absorption, ultimately strengthening your immune system. Increase energy and nutritional support to every living cell in your body - feel and look better than ever before.

Progurt is guaranteed 100% natural with no artificial flavours, colours or preservatives.

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I thought perhaps that might be a more cost effective alternative, rather than going the "whole package" route.

I wonder if it would be more cost effective to put the contents of the sachet into capsules and perhaps divide into doses.

I wonder why they don't sell it in capsule form.....


I don't see any pricing for the sachets. Did they give you pricing for just the sachets when you ordered or received the initial package, Scott?


****warning - I'm grossing myself out again don't read this if my thought process is annoying you****

I just came across this in the FAQs when I was trying to figure out where I read about swallowing the sachet contents with water:

FAQ #2

quote:

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Can I make fresh Progurt, using already-made Progurt as the starter culture?

No. Fresh Progurt cannot be made using already-made Progurt as a starter culture. The strains of bacteria contained in Progurt are indigenous to the human gastro-intestinal tract and will not replicate.

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I'm now wondering if that would mean that they can't cultivate it in a lab and must somehow harvest it from human instestines or fecal matter.

THEY CAN'T DO THAT RIGHT?!!!!(please tell me they can't do that!)

If they won't replicate, how could they repopulate? How could they culture the yogurt to begin with if they can't replicate?

If it's a growing bacterial culture, then shouldn't contamination of a fresh milk sample by bacteria from a previous batch result in the bacteria then growing in the contaminated milk?

If it's not growing in the first batch, what would be the point of putting it in there?


I'm having WAY too much trouble getting a handle on this.

Can anyone help me figure out how it's possible to not be able to make yogurt out of bacteria that won't replicate? There must be something about the yogurt-making process or bacterial growth that I don't understand.



I have to see if there's an e-mail contact there that I can ask for an explanation, unless someone else can help me understand this.


The whole idea of using strains that are naturally found in the human intestinal tract makes great sense to me.

Knowing how important the intestinal flora is to the immune system, I would think that being able to repopulate our beneficial bacteria with strains that belong there would be of immense benefit.

I think its great that they've found a way to actually re-establish intestinal probiota, once it's been completely depleted, besides feeding people human excrement.


I just can't seem to connect all the dots in my head as to how this works. Maybe I need to take a break and come back to this later. My head is swimming right now.

I'm sorry that I have this OCD need to try to fully understand every little thing. I realize that it sometimes annoys other people.
 

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Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
 
m0joey....Where do you buy "multiglycidic syrup that acts as a prebiotic... "?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Comes from progurt.com as well. See their web site.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
when you put the satchets in the milk and finish incubating, the 100 billion CFU becomes 1 trillion. It is clearly not more cost-effective to just down the satchets
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I personally would not take the sachets as the normal course of use. They are 20 dollars each and I think it is much better to take it after fermented.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
If you don't believe in energetic med please feel free to ignore the rest of my post.

When I first told my energetic doc about the price of the product, she thought it was quite outrageous too. Well, I brought in the progurt for her to test yesterday, and she said it tested very very strong for me. Also, she thought I'd be allergic to the milk used for fermenting and had told me to use almond milk, but upon testing said I wasn't allergic to the final product. I'm not sure if everyone would tolerate it, but I know I'm definitely allergic to dairy products so it seems the progurt nutritionist was right abuot the fermentation process completely denaturing the milk casein proteins and converting lactose 100% to lactase.

As for the therapeutic effect: last week, she said my fungal infections stood at 50% of what they were when I first saw her a year ago. I told her I think I experienced a yeast die-off from the progurt, so she tested me again and said it had dropped another 50% to 25%. Within 1 week. This prompted her to test my other major infections (Bb, babs, HHV-6, myco etc) and she said most of them had also dropped in percentage. Within 1 week. I think the only other thing I've tried that has worked to this extent is the bionic, but that didn't seem to work as universally and had a pronounced effect on mainly one infection at a time.

She is now interested in the product and thinks it may actually be worth the price. She thinks the product is stimulating GALT--gut associated lymphoid tissue, where 70% of the immune system is thought to reside.

I have found her muscle-testing to incredibly precise and consistent. At the least, I think this is a huge piece to the immune response puzzle.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by m0joey:
...the 100 billion CFU becomes 1 trillion.

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quote:

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Is there something that makes your incubator different or would one be able to use the sachets with another yogurt maker?

If "The strains of bacteria contained in Progurt are indigenous to the human gastro-intestinal tract and will not replicate", how is it possible to grow the culture from the sachets and to repopulate the gastrointestinal tract by ingestion?

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I'd really love to believe that this can help me and to find a fairly cost-effective means to utilize it. I hope they can clear up my confusion on this.

I could really use some help right now with getting yeast back in check and I'd LOVE to have something capable of actual repopulation of my intestinal flora that wouldn't interfere with all of the other stuff I'm taking.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
alig... please contact the nutritionist. He is very open to answering any questions you may have about the product, and will likely answer it better than any of us here as he has been developing this product for gawd knows how long and has researched the effects of it for the last 5 years.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
I guess I must have added what I had just e-mailed them, while you were posting your suggestion.

Do you know if that's who would answer the e-mail?
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I would go to the contact info, and skype him if you can. You'll get to him much faster that way
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Just Skype or call. It's pretty easy either way.
 

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Posted by AliG (Member # 9734) on :
 
I'm Skype ignorant & too tired to look it up. What's Skype?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
AliG, if you are interested in the product, make the effort to find out more. I think people have shared enough here. It doesn't sound like you are interested in the product and that is fine.
 

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Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
 
"AliG, if you are interested in the product, make the effort to find out more. I think people have shared enough here. It doesn't sound like you are interested in the product and that is fine."

People have shared enough??

What does that mean?

Maybe you feel you have shared enough, and that's fine. Stop sharing. But I'm with Ali; there are many questions about this stuff. It may be the best thing in the world, I have no idea about that. As far as I can see, the only thing that has been shared so far, other than the website, is that a few people have used it and loved and gotten great results.

That's great. But it really doesn't answer any of the questions asked, nor does it explain exactly how the product works, and whether or not there may be any risks to taking so huge a load of unknown bacteria at one time.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
If you have questions beyond what has been shared, please call the company. They have a phone number. People call them all the time. It's much easier and more expedient for you to call them and get the answers from them directly. People that are sharing their experiences here are using the product, not experts.
 

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Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
 
Thanks, Scott. I will I have terrible GI problems, and am interested in learning more.

If I find out anything of interest I will post it.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
In 13 years of taking "products" this one is probably the best I have seen. I am using about .5 Liters a day now.
 

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Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
 
I'm glad you're doing so well on this. If it would help my gut that would be wonderful. But I am overly cautious at this point.

Are you at all worried that introducing 1/2 trillion unknown bacteria may be dangerous?

Is it real healing going on, or possibly some sort of palliation that may have consequences later on down the road?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Dangerous in what way? People take probiotics all the time. I suspect this is just lack of information.

Why are people so worried about probiotics? Don't you take them all the time? This is just a better one.

Do you know how many trillion bacteria are already in you?
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I think the fact that this bombardment of good bacteria is actually causing such a drastic immune response is just evidence of how badly our gut has become damaged due to our lifestyle/diet. I thought I had a relatively healthy diet prior to getting sick, rarely eating fast food and no dairy products, but have you seen that youtube where due to preservatives, fast food looks the same a few months late as it did when it was first made? That stuff simply does not leave the body. Not only that, but eating meat, organic or not, that is necessarily putrefied due to transport times and--if not organic--injected with antibiotics means we've been slowly reversing the ratio of good to bad bacteria over the entire course of our lives. Our bodies/digestive enzymes simply have not adapted to the rapid industrialization of food that's occurred in the last century.

The 1 trillion CFU does sound worrisome and drastic, but maybe that's just the amount that some of us need to return our GALT and gut to normalcy.
 

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Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
 
I've been doing alternative nutrition and seeing alternative M.D.s since l986. It's news to me that any one can be taking too many probiotics of any kind.

It looks like a very good product. What's all the controversy about. If you are interested in it

call the company and learn about it. If you are not, move on. You would be hard pressed to find any one who has too much beneficial flora in their system especially folks like us who take tons of ABX and anti fungals.

How much longer do we need to drag this out. Use a search engine and do some research if you want to learn more about not only this product but how probiotics work and what they do.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
The particular strains, etc. in the product are proprietary. The company will not share that information and if that is a pre-requisite for using the product, then this is not the right product for you.

However, for those willing to unlearn and learn new things, this product might be worth a good look.

I just ordered my third month supply of the product because I feel like it is supporting my body in a way it has never before been supported. There is something about this product that is very special.

As for trying to make new batches from old batches, the company says this could be dangerous. This is a human strain probiotic which means that it is not used to replicating in a fluid that comes from a cow. Thus, it only replicates well in the human - where it originated from.

They also cautioned that other bacteria that you may not want could get into the milk and over time, you may ferment organisms that are not supportive of health as I understood.

As for using their device to make it, this is NOT yogurt. This is a special product and the temperature that they use is important to creating the most beneficial end product possible. So for the 70 dollars, I would not risk using another yogurt machine.

It is NOT a transient probiotic. Thus, it generally takes 9-13 months to fully balance the gut and then only small, occasional doses might be helpful to reinforce the soldiers already at work.

This product restores the body to the point that eventually, the body no longer needs it.

If I calculate the cost with this in mind, it seems like a bargain.

I'm excited to see that Joey is having good results with it and expect that we will both continue to see improvements.

This is a good one.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Sounds like an interesting product... I have a few considerations, though.

1. If it's from "human" sources, why grow it in cow's milk? Why couldn't you use almond milk, rick milk, goat's milk, coconut milk, etc.? Seems like you should use human breast milk...

2. I found no studies about their product on Pubmed. All of the info is from their own website. I didn't see any 3rd party studies on their website or while doing a quick search on google. Maybe I missed them?

3. Can there be dangers from their culture. Many years ago, growth hormone was taken from cadavers. People requiring growth hormone took this form of growth hormone & developed serious illnesses. So, the "ick factor" is relevant.

4. If a strain becomes contaminated somehow - what might it do to one's body?

5. I'm a bit concerned that it may be a bio-engineered organism. I'm not sure what this may mean. How long has it been tested for safety?

6. When you know the particular strain - you can look it up & research it. With this - we don't know what it is & if there have been adequate studies on it.

7. It's kind of expensive to take a risk & wing it... I'm a bit wary of this product for the above reasons.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
1 - I don't know the answer except that it has to be fermented to be optimally beneficial. You can call and ask.

2 - I doubt there will be many studies on many natural options. I am not surprised. If you feel that the solution to your illness is on Pubmed, I hope you find it there.

3 - Anything in life is a risk. Many yogurts have probiotics that originate from bovine sources. Where do you think those come from? Where do you think the gelatin in most capsules comes from?

4 - Don't know. Do you ask the same of your other probiotics?

5 - Don't know. Do you ask the same of your other probiotics?

6 - They will not share the strain. Period. If you need that information, SOB (scroll on by).

7 - Life is about risks. You can take them or not. No one is asking anyone to take a risk that they are not comfortable with.

Time will tell.
 

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Posted by yanivnaced (Member # 13212) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by SForsgren:
For me, it increased energy even further, helped with vision, eliminated fungal issues, and improved overall circulation.

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Can you elaborate on what specifically has improved with you vision?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Clarity. Also seeing things differently when reading. Instead of reading a word at a time, I was seeing a line at a time - which is probably more brain function than eye function but sharpness and clarity were vision related.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
less blurriness, seeing things w'better contrast & more colors on my end
 

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Posted by 'Kete-tracker (Member # 17189) on :
 
Scott,

You sound a bit like salesman on the defensive.
I trust you aren't profiting form referring people to this company?
Thanks for the product tip, though. I intend to check it out.

Nomoremuscles,
I would agree w/ you that any probiotic SHOULD be able to grow & grow, if put in an appropriate medium... like the organic cow's milk the Co. suggests.

I just think the line about- "It isn't starter though with theirs- you have to keep using the sachets. It is expensive, but worth it I think"
indicates the co. is trying to protect future profits.
But if it's a great product, why not support it?

That's the way I feel about Gary's yoghurt- Stonyfield. He was my sister's classmate & teamed up w/ a friend to introduce a Hi-Q multi-strain yoghurt.
After many years, it "flourished".
He has now, of course, gone international (w/ a bunch o' help from the French company that bought them out!)
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
This is not a bovine product and thus, it does not behave the same was as yogurt. It is not yogurt.

Most probiotics are derived from bovine sources - this is not.

This company will be a big success because their product works.

I'm not going to try and convince people further. Try it or not. Your call.

And to be clear, I have no financial association with this company.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
it sounds awesome, but the proprietary aspect worries me as well.

thanks for sharing the product info, though -- maybe more people will try it and in time we'll have an accurate idea of its benefits.
 

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Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
There are other companies that have proprietary probiotics. It's not a new field. It's ripe for exploitation by people coming up with "new" proprietary strains that cure everything & cost a lot more than a probiotic should.

I'm very skeptical... Especially with descriptions like this -

"Most people experience almost immediate benefits from eating Progurt�. For healthy people it is a sense of increased awareness and wellbeing. For those with health problems there are often dramatic improvements in their condition."

There any many unknowns here. No 3rd party studies that I could find anywhere on google (not just PubMed)...

I've never heard of probiotics making one's eyesight better. That sounds a bit odd to me. If someone could explain why this might happen, I might be more apt to believe it.

I'm sure the people who mentioned this are taking a few different things that might influence their eyesight besides Progurt.

I think I'll stick with kefir, regular yogurt, coconut milk yogurt & Good Belly...

I'd like to hear how people are doing on it in 3-6 months from now. Time will tell if it's worthwhile. $700 a month is a bit steep for a probiotic with no scientific literature to back it up.
 

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Posted by troutscout (Member # 3121) on :
 
This stuff comes from Australia...how can it still be viable when it arrives?
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks much for the additional info, Scott and joey. A couple of questions for both of you about your personal daily `intake'.....

I believe I read on the website that an average daily dose was somewhere around 1/2 cup a day, so at that rate, a sachet would yield about 8 daily servings...... (correct me here if I misinterpreted).

1. Where did you hear about Progurt?

2. So, when you determined how much to use per day, was this based on information from the Progurt people, or was it based on energetic testing, or what exactly?

3. Could you elaborate a bit on how much you took in the beginning and for how long, and how much you expect to take per day for the next few months?

4. Did either of you try the `colon reflorastation' (refloridization) kit - rectal insertion of probiotics?
http://www.myrealhealth.com/

Thanks.

``Indigenous' gut flora is interesting stuff..... I've read some about Bowel Nosodes (homeopathic), and these nosodes should definitely be taken or prescribed with care and professional guidance.... Like most other microbes, even gut flora can become pathogenic, and it does make some sense to re-populate the gut with friendly, functional microbes, and roust out the troublemakers.....

I'm always a bit hesitant about `proprietary' blends and processes, too, where virtually no data is available even from the company..... so thanks for `pioneering' this effort and reporting about what you experience.
 

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Posted by ugagal (Member # 18471) on :
 
"If you feel that the solution to your illness is on Pubmed, then I hope you find it there."

That is a quote from SForsgren to sparkle7 regarding a question sparkle7 asked about the progurt product. I do not understand the condescending and somewhat sarcastic attitude displayed in the above response. Isn't discussing new info and ideas about ways to help us in our fight against Lyme what this forum is all about? If we can't ask legitimate questions or raise concerns, then what's the point??
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Truthfinder, to your specific questions:

1) I learned about Progurt from a practitioner that I was doing some emotional conflict work with. He and his wife were both using the product and he felt it was producing some remarkable results for them in a short time period.

2) I started with 1 liter a day and now do about .5 liter a day. After another month or so, I may go down to about .25 liters and probably stay at that for a year. Some go down to .1 liter. All depends. For those of us that have done antibiotics for so long like I did, I think it is important to repopulate the flora.

3) My dosage was based primarily on what the Progurt people suggested. And their product does energetically test amazingly well. I shared that with the company and they said they get that feedback often.

4) I did not try the specific implant kit that you mention but I have done others in the past.

5) I understand concerns over proprietary blends and how it would be nice to know more about what was in the product, but it seems to work and it doesn't seem to concern me as much. There are so many stories of great success with the product that I felt it was worth a try. The endorsement from another practitioner also peaked my interest.

Best
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
The product comes in sealed sachets and then is made into a yogurt-like substance in an incubator. There is no problem with shipping it.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
Scott and Joey, did either of you make any changes to your diet when you introduced Progurt?

I have been googling Progurt + Multiple Sclerosis on the 'net and I notice that several MS patients who used it (and who were seemingly having good results) were also following a strict diet in conjunction.

Avoidance of beef and chicken (because of the bacteria they contain) was mentioned as part of their regimen. I'm just trying to figure out if this dietary advice came from the manufacturer or their own practitioner.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I did not change my diet other than I am being better about not eating junk food because I started using the Nintendo Wii and it kept telling me I needed to stop... Oops.

I have not had too much dialog with the manufacturer on the topic of diet and I talk with them about every 3-7 days. They have a great support team there that checks on how you are doing, suggests how to modify things to make the product work for you, etc. Very bright folks.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
I found some very promising comments about the product here:
http://www.topix.com/forum/health/multiple-sclerosis/TT5LMUQB3DDI2R99H

"I have rapidly worsening secondary progressive MS and am in a wheelchair.

By the time I found Progurt (the Australian type in the sachets), I was worsening by the day and the meds were making me incredibly sick.

The maker of Progurt (in Australia) is named Robert Bison, an absolutely wonderful man who, I believe, saved my life.

It came with a cost though.

I had to do exactly as he said; extreme diet; exercise (which was almost impossible at the time), throw out most medicines, etc., etc.

The outcome: I lost 90 lbs., I ride a recumbant bike for 20 mins. a night; I can wear shoes again; I go out again (still in a wheelchair, but feeling good).

I did not have a full recovery, but I believe I am in good condition now; not sick and not afraid.

While I am not on Progurt any longer and while I believe the regime requires a huge committment, for me, it was worth it and I will always be grateful to Robert Beson for his product and the time he invested in me."


"My brother has been diagnosed with MS 8 years ago. He became completely disabled and could not even feed himself anymore.

A friend of the family gave him 5 sukets of progurt to put in his mouth and drink with water.

In just a few minutes He started feeling better and stronger and 6 days later, I received the greatest b- day gift

- MY BROTHER gained control of his hands and was able to eat and drink all by himself.

This might not mean a big deal to others but to me, it was a miracle.

We just received our first shipment of progurt and after taking 3 more suckets with water, on the next day, my brother gave me the greatest news

- he was able to pick himself up from the wheelchair and stand on his own two feet for about a minute and a half while holding on to the granite countertop -

something he hasn't been able to do in a very long time.

Every day to us as a family is a miracle and we can't wait to see what he'll be able to do next.

I give God the glory for sending this treatment our way when we lost ALL hope, and thank him for the people that freely gave those trial sukets of progurt...

We are also very greatful for the people from Australia who make him feel as he'd be the only patient they have to deal with.

I'll keep you posted on his progress."
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Robert is who I speak with as well and he is a very sharp guy. Doesn't believe so much in Lyme disease or disease in general I suspect but more in balance and giving the body what it needs to be healthy.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Truthfiner:

1. I heard about it from Scott.

2. The dose was first determined by Robert, who is both the founder and nutritionist available for consult during his office hours. Then it was confirmed by energetic testing, both my own and my energetic doc's

3. I've only been on it for a week,so I'm still at the full liter.

4. My energetic doc told me about this, but haven't tried this no.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
With regards to diet, the reason they don't want you on protein is because of antibiotic injections which would compete with the good bacteria. I am surprisingly fine with this, because at my current dose of progurt I am rarely hungry. Even after adding fruit and sweetened cereal to the progurt, my fungal infections have gone done. When I am hungry, I just snack on vegetables, fruit, maybe a slice or 2 of brown rice bread.
 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 
scott,

i have no doubt as to the healing power of good bacteria.
this is impressive feedback coming from you in that i know you have used many probiotic substances.
very interesting feedback also from the m.s. community.

i would appreciate knowing
if your comparison of progurt to kefir is based on that made from real (live) grains (at home), or commercially made kefir?

from there i will research the product further as my young daughter (age 7) is having serious gut problems from a course of abx.

thanks kindly,
mo
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I've only made probiotics with goat milk at home and purchased Kefir, but even Kefir is not human strain.
 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 
thanks, scott.

i'm looking into it further.

mo
 

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Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
 
AliG. I read this thread just to read your posts.

You're so cute.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Joey, Scott - thank you so much for helping to round-out the picture for me. Now I feel like I have enough information to consider the Progurt..... And despite the intitial cost, I am definitely interested in this.

Sounds like the grass-fed, local lamb and beef I get (no abx or other drugs) would probably be okay..... I'm looking for some local chickens, too......

So glad to hear about this! Thanks!

The multiglycidic syrup that acts as a prebiotic...... wonder if inulin or FOS prebiotics would serve the same purpose and work just as well? I think some prebiotic would be a good idea.....

Hi, AliG. I meant to say that earlier..... and I think you probably found on the website where it explains that all of these organisms are grown in the lab, etc., so the `ick factor' is minimal on that front.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I asked the same question and the company said that other prebiotics just don't work and that they spent years working on a prebiotic that worked well with their specific human strains. So, I had the same question and after asking and hearing the rationale, I decided that it worth using their prebiotic.
 

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Posted by charlie (Member # 25) on :
 
.....This sounds like a more palatable version of a 'fecal transplant', which seems to work sometimes, but progurt's so expensive I doubt if many lymies could afford it.
 

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Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
 
Scott or anyone using Progurt, just wondering how this Pharmax HCL-High Potency product compares with Progurt. Would you mind comparing the specs below for me and let me know if it is at all comparable. The cost is about $55.00 US so it may be an affordable option for some. (No, I don't sell it -- just ran across it when researching "human strain").

I am concerned that the capsules contain magnesium stearate, would that cancel out the benefit? The powder form that is listed first doesn't appear to have any magnesium stearate in it though.

Quote" These powerful probiotics are for the relief of intestinal health problems. These Human Lactic Commensals (HLC) are human-derived strains including Lactobacillus acidophilus and Lactobacillus bifidus, and the only product line of their kind in North America.

Lack of friendly bacteria in the lower intestines may result in severe abdominal discomfort, bowel problems such as constipation, diarrhea, and IBS, as well as extreme fatigue, and yeast overgrowth.

HLC-High Potency are indicated for all gastro-intestinal concerns including fungal and yeast infections, gas, bloating, indigestion, IBS, and Chron's. HLC Powder can help crowd out the yeast and other undesirable organisms which result from use of antibiotics, chemotherapy, oral contraceptives, and hormone replacement therapy.

HLC powder has a sweet taste due their fructo-oligo-saccharides (FOS) content which ensure rapid establishment of the Lactobacilli in the upper small intestine and bifido bacteria in the lower small intestine.

FOS is a naturally-occurring water-soluble fiber from fruit and vegetables which feeds the friendly intestinal bacteria. It also provides naturally-occurring beta-carotene from the whole freeze-dried apricot. The apricot is used for its soothing effect on the intestinal walls and also for its flavor.

Ingredients and Suggested Use

HLC-High Potency 120g
Ingredients:
Each 1/3 teaspoon (1g) contains:

HLC LAB4 Consortium......8-12 Billion viable cells
L. acidophilus CUL 60
L. acidophilus CUL 21
Bifidobacterium bifidum CUL 21
Bifidobacterium lactis CUL 34
Fructo-oligo-saccharides (FOS)....... 800 mg

Other Ingredients: Freeze dried apricot

HLC-High Potency 120 capsules
Ingredients:
Each capsule contains:

HLC LAB4 Consortium......8-12 Billion viable cells
L. acidophilus CUL 60
L. acidophilus CUL 21
Bifidobacterium bifidum CUL 21
Bifidobacterium lactis CUL 34
Fructo-oligo-saccharides (FOS)....... 300 mg

Other Ingredients: Cellulose, silica, vegetable magnesium stearate.

Intensive Phase
Take 1/3 to 1/2 teaspoon or 1-2 capsules twice daily after meals for one month.

Clinical Considerations:

During and Post-antibiotic therapy
Acute intestinal upset
Candidiasis
Digestive disturbances (bloating, gas)
Poor diet, starvation, and anorexia
Parasitic infections
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Bowel problems (constipation, diarrhea, IBS)

Intermediate Phase
Take 1/3 teaspoon once or twice daily for one month

Clinical Considerations

General illness
Stressful life style
Parasitic infections
Digestive problems(bloating, gas)
Constipation
Excessive alcohol consumption
Bowel problems (diarrhea, IBS)
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Candidiasis

Maintenance Phase
Take 1/4 teaspoon three or more times per week

Clinical Considerations

Maintain Health of the digestive system
Prevention of colds and flu
Stressful life style
Digestive problems(bloating, gas)
Occasional Constipation
Prevention of Candidiasis & yeast infection

Tips from the Nutritionist
These probiotics are the absolute best I have found anywhere. They are human strain probiotics which adhere extremely well and are more effective than any others I have used in my practice. Autistic kids in particular need these non-dairy strains of probiotics to re-establish the good flora and combat yeast. end quote"

Hey, Charlie, thanks for letting us know what the alternative to using this product would be. I think the powder seems more appealing.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I have taken HLC. It is a good product, but it does not compare in my experience to Progurt.
 

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Posted by Looking (Member # 13600) on :
 
Thanks Scott, I'm thinking that the culturing process may be what makes Progurt more effective.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
It is also important to use their incubator as it is temperature regulated to ensure the maximum potential of the organisms.
 

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Posted by jam338 (Member # 14002) on :
 
Scott and Joey I am confused. Sorry I have bad brain problems. Maybe this has been explained, and I just didn't grasp it.

This is a sincere question. How are you able to distinguish that the improvements are Progurt and not from Allergie Immun drops that you both are doing?

What I am trying to distinguish is that does AI help with only certain things and Progurt with other things or do they overlap? Maybe there is no way to know.

In the end all that matters is that you are both improving from something, whether it is bionic, AI, or progurt. Thank you both for sharing information to help us learn more about your experiences.

Joey, is the energetic tester that you mentioned the same one you previously wrote to me about in LA area, DrB?
 

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Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
 
Scott and m0joey thanks soooo much for sharing!

Just a quick question: If you are not doing ABX would you really need the initial full load or just going onto maintenance might be all you need? just looking for an opinion.

For everyone: This product might be in combination with biofilm busting herbs
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Hi Bob, not sure. I am of the opinion that antibiotic use likely makes the loading period longer, but ask Robert to be sure. Best
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I think the immediate impact with the progurt is felt "down there." I can literally sense a remodeling of sorts going down in the gut, and this is also visible with BMs. I have also had to increase detox agents like crazy in the last few days--haven't been on AI drops since last week or using the bionic in this time period--so there seems to be some kinda systemic change going on also.

The AI drops seem to elicit more fatigue & emotional reactions, which make sense because they work on such a deep level, hitting emotional blockages & miasms in addition to more supericial metal, chemicals, & infections. There is a more profound grogginess and fatigue that I get from the AI that is markedly different from the progurt reaction.

It helps that I started the progurt AFTER my round 2 of AI was finished.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Bob:

I was only on ABx for a total of 3-4 months, but I'm testing for the full load. just having fungal infections run rampant for so long seems sufficient to mess up the balance significantly.
 

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Posted by jam338 (Member # 14002) on :
 
Hi Joey thanks for helping me to better understand. That makes sense to me since I experienced some similar gut symptoms when I started Cordyceps. It took me a few days to realize it was the Cordyceps making gut changes. I wasn't aware that Cordyceps could do that.

Clearly with so much of our immune system being in the gut, we need to get that working as well as possible. Even though I eat a fairly healthy diet, I am not aborbing nutrients (verified through variety of recent lab testing).

The LLND I am seeing (CR) has recommended nutritional IVs, a very costly approach. So, while Progurt is expensive, it may be a more cost effective alternative for me to consider.

Thanks for the additional info. I'll respond further to your PM.
 

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Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
 
I had been taking probiotics for some time. I don't test positively for anything but natural probiotics now, in yogurt, kambucha, or probiotic veggies.

Despite doing all these things correctly it seems difficult to get to 100% re-florastation. The bad guys just don't give up there terrain. Either from biofilm or just being to entrenched into tissue. It sounds like you've found a way with this product to bust through.

Just a thought, if you put any pathogenic bacteria on plastic and waited until it cultured and created a biofilm. Then took an LED pushing out UV-B light waves killing all the bacteria viruses and parasites. What happens to the biofilm? What disolves the proteins that make the biofilm sheath. Or when the UV-B light is no longer around, the biofilm is again repopulated with pathogens. Just an idea about finding herbs that destroy these biofilm sheaths.

Some new hope comes from the product you've introduced in this thread. I Suggest this bacteria might have a better idea about how to live in a human terrain to ensure it's new terrain is maintained. There is an intelligence to bacteria, especially when they colonize.

The bacteria is cultured as if it were in a human, suggesting 100s of species of bacteria in the right numbers to live in a human host.

I suppose to reduce cost, you could do more with prebiotics. Probably another question to be posed to the vendor.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Oh, thanks, Scott.... I suspected you were going to say that about traditional prebiotics.....

Well, all this convinces me that Progurt is truly unique, and far removed from what we think of as `probiotics'. We've come to think of lactic acid bacteria as `probiotics' and don't really think about the other 300+ strains of stuff in the bowel and gut. I'm not sure Progurt would qualify as lactic acid bacteria, though it does seem to multiply in milk......

I suspect that perhaps a lot of strains of `probiotics' we are consuming these days may not be `indigenous' to the human GI tract, but they seem to work and are easy to culture, so they are used commercially.

And if my guess is correct about this stuff, nothing like this has been done before, to my knowledge.

I signed up for their information e-mails....
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by charlie:
.....This sounds like a more palatable version of a 'fecal transplant'.....

---

I had been thinking along the same lines: that consuming a probiotic cultured from human intestines would accomplish the same thing as a fecal transplant.

I was discussing this with a friend of mine today.

She works at a wildlife rescue centre and told me that baby animals who've been on abx need to be put in a cage with healthy adults of the same species.

The sick ones will instinctively consume the droppings of the healthy... and recover fully.

She also told me that, in cases where this does not happen (ie. no healthy adults available), the sick ones usually die.

Food for thought, indeed.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
that's really interesting zombiemummy. if anyone else tries this product i would love to hear more.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
Yes, it seems that sick animals will instinctively do their own 'fecal transplant' equivalent...

My major GI issues (food sensitivities, malabsorbtion, gastroparesis) began after doing 7 months of oral amoxy followed by 7 wks of iv abx.

Dietary changes and photon tx have helped somewhat but not fully.

I think the abx decimated my internal flora and I really do wonder if this product might do the trick....
 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 
i'm interested in this as well.

hopefully this can be the go to thread for any of us that try it.

my daughter has abdomimal issues since abx treatment that are also refractory to all the better probiotics available.
her immune functioning is low along with that.

mo
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
After much thought, I have placed an order. I'll post my own updates/progress with progurt here.
 

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Posted by Mo (Member # 2863) on :
 
cool beans

good luck with this.


~ m
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I'm looking forward to your feedback as well. Expecting good things.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
ditto zombie.

this hasn't been an easy ride. if your gut is anywhere as messed up as mine be ready to rest for days at a time.
 

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Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
 
Off topic a little except another use for yogurt. there is urease antibody that can be put into yogurt to help control or eradicate h-pylori. Just posting as an aside:

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE52M5JA20090323
 

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Posted by 'Kete-tracker (Member # 17189) on :
 
Scott,
Did you read a couple years back that they recently finally figured out that the appendix was/is employed as a safe haven for "good bacteria"...to re-seed the GI tract after an acute bout with an intestinal disease like dysentery?
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
You know, I've been thinking about this......

First, I don't think the company could refer to the Progurt microflora as `indigenous human strains' if has been genetically modified, bioengineered, etc. However, it would be an important question to ask the company.

Second, I suspect that beyond lifestyle choices and the imbalance of good-to-bad microbes & chemicals in our modern food chain...... what I suspect is that many or even most of us were either born with an imbalance in gut flora, or it happened soon thereafter.

Given the mean age of members at LymeNet, it is likely that `Mom' may have been deficient when we were born. It was popular for a number of years to forego breastfeeding and give commercial formula to infants instead, so no source of immunity-help in that situation. Then we got whacked with abx the first time we got a suspected case of Strep Throat or an ear infection, or we had our tonsils jerked out with abx as a side-dish....... in other words, I suspect that the problem goes way, way back.

And I really wonder if a lot of common food intolerances and digestive problems are connected here in a BIG way, factors that affected us even before we were born....

Way to go, Zombie! Can't let the `guys' here have all the fun.

Joey, how disabling has this been for you? When you said `be ready to rest for days at a time', my ears pricked up. As long as I can handle the basic daily needs of myself and my few pets, I'm okay with that. But I don't want to be `down for the count' with something like this. If it's possible, I just need to know about it.

Okay one more question for Scott and Joey: I am assuming that constipation has not been a consequence of doing the Progurt, that any changes have been more on the other end of the spectrum?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Actually, when I first started, there was a slight shift towards constipation but that passed pretty quickly and the company is great about providing support as you use the product. I think at that time, I increased magnesium slightly and that was all it took.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by m0joey:
this hasn't been an easy ride. if your gut is anywhere as messed up as mine be ready to rest for days at a time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SForsgren:
Will you still make the Progurt with cow milk? As I understand that is important and the lactose is fermented out. I really hope this helps you ZM!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by m0joey:
The progurt is stimulating GALT, and thereby ramping up an almost startling immune response, but in the meantime be ready to bind bind and bind some more. Heavy metals have been testing too.

---

When you say 'startling immune response', I'm not sure what you mean. Could you please describe?

Also, what binders do you use? There is not much I can tolerate at the moment besides charcoal.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I was referring to the GALT, where 70% of our immunity lies, being stimulated. Regardless of how many killing supplements we're taking, without our innate immunity working effectively they may just be bandaids.

I felt a strong die-off reaction within 1 day of taking it, could barely get off my couch, and my energetic doc told me a few days later I'd lowered my fungal infections by 50% in one week.

As for binders:
chlorella, ACZ zeolite, methylation supps--methyl b12, folapro, instrinsic b12, phosphatidyl choline--pectasol, HMD, nutramedix algas, pinella for neurotoxins.

Are you using the biotensor or any other form of energetic testing? I test each time before I take.
 

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Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
 
Scott and Joey, are you taking Progurt at the same time as A I or in
between rounds?


Thanks
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
in between for me, but i will likely continue taking the progurt after the 3rd round comes. Or maybe wait until the detox from progurt has leveled off before adding the AI. Not sure yet
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I am doing it at the same time.
 

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Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
 
Thanks, I'm waiting for round three and just trying to figure out whether I want to attempt both at the same time.
 

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Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
Zombie_mummy, you and I have very similar GI symptoms. My GI tract is in such bad shape that I have to consume the same exact thing everyday, or else my gut peristalsis will completely stop, I go into malabsorption, have pain, gas, and bloating, and drop even more weight. At my worst, I only went to the bathroom once a month due to gut paralysis. I've gone from 140 pounds to 83 pounds (I'm 5'7) and now I'm back up to 100 pounds, but still can't eat much or gain much more.

I'd love to hear how this goes for you. Keep us updated, with all the juicy details! Nothing is "TMI" for me!
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LittleLymie19:
Zombie_mummy, you and I have very similar GI symptoms. My GI tract is in such bad shape that I have to consume the same exact thing everyday, or else my gut peristalsis will completely stop, I go into malabsorption, have pain, gas, and bloating, and drop even more weight. At my worst, I only went to the bathroom once a month due to gut paralysis.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SForsgren:
AliG, if you are interested in the product, make the effort to find out more. I think people have shared enough here. It doesn't sound like you are interested in the product and that is fine.

---

quote:

---

What type of milk should I use to make Progurt?

The milk must be sterile. Use UHT, Full Cream variety.
Milk type terminology may vary from country to country - UHT Milk may also be termed Long Life / Ultra Pasteurized / Bio Pasteurized. Full Cream Milk may also be termed Whole Milk. It is recommended that you choose the highest quality milk available. You can use both Cows Milk and Goats Milk.

---

Cow OR Goat, but should be full-cream UHT.
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
They also say that soy can be used on the web site, but that it does not work as well. It may be the case that Goat may work as well, but everytime I have spoken to them, they have suggested cow milk.
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Several people here have called and spoken with the company and talked with Robert. If you have an interest in the product, call them. You will get much more information that you could ever get from an email.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks for the replies.

Sounds like those with tendencies towards constipation may have to start slow and work up, maybe? Well, Zombie will be finding out soon....

Yep, `gut palsy' is my issue, too - excellent description. The triggers vary; some I know, but other times I don't know what happens. But things just stop transiting through the system properly. And that's even with taking fiber every day for the past 20 years. I flunked the `Stool Transit Study' done a few years back. They put me on Zelnorm, which worked for awhile but eventually caused sludge in my gall bladder.

I've ended up in the ER twice with an impacted bowel, even though I was still having bowel movements. Raw and cooked veggies digest the best, but I absolutely freeze to death if I don't have sufficient fat and proteins. I've tried about everything reasonable, and at this point, a few days of MiraLax once a month are necessary as a `clean-out' to prevent impaction.

I'd rather use goat's milk, but I'd have to get it fresh, then boil it. Not convenient and more chance of unwanted organisms entering the mix. Apparently, I was raised on goat's milk since it wasn't possible to nurse, and I couldn't digest cow's milk or commercial formula. If I do the Progurt, I'll follow whatever recommendations they offer in my case.

No such thing as TMI for me, either. The GI tract is what it is, and specifics are important!
 

---

Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
Truthfinder, you sound SO much like Zombie and I then. I couldn't even finish any of the transit tests at the hospital because it took just 3 hours to finish the test in the stomach, and even after nearly 12 hours of waiting, none of the tests could even reach my small intestine. It took a week for the barium to come out, and I never even saw the camera come out (that's a scary thought). THAT'S how long food sits in me. And in those cases, it was just liquid or a small camera, imagine solid food! Geez. They tried me on zelnorm too, all bad.

Have you tried oxygenated magnesium, or magnesium oxide? Miralax doesn't work for me either.

Are you set to try Progurt too?
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Caution to those who don't want any juicy details: Don't read this.

Hi, LL - sounds like you have been through hell. Well, both you and Zombie have.... I feel for you both. Actually, my STS didn't involve a little camera, but that would have been interesting to see. I just ate normal food, swallowed a capsule full of little metal `O' rings, and they took x-rays every day to see how far everything had gone, and how long it took the O rings to clear out.....

Yes, liquid mag-oxide. Horrendous cramping - I mean stop-you-in-your-tracks pain. The only magnesium I tolerate is the Natural Calm stuff, and it will still give me some cramping. And I can't take much of it. I'm sure you can relate to this - the day after I drink the Natural Calm, I can hear things gurgling and turning to liquid in my upper GI tract, but it doesn't translate into pooping. It does nothing to increase peristalsis, which appears to be the problem.

MiraLax - it won't work for me either if I use it as directed on the bottle. I usually have to take 2 doses a day - sometimes 3 - for about 4 days, and THEN I have to take something like Cascara Sagrada to make my bowels move it out. all this takes about a week to accomplish, and I don't schedule any appointments or social events during that time, let me tell you. (BTW, the max dose is 47 grams of MiraLax a day, and my doc says the molecules are too big to be absorbed through the intestine so he says it won't hurt me. Hope he's right.)

What actually works better is that Go-Lytely liquid stuff they make you drink before a colonoscopy or lower GI film series - basically sip the darn stuff every 15 minutes until there is movement, which is really more like an eruption, in my case. But you need a prescription for that so I use the MiraLax - same basic stuff without the electrolytes.

I've got a 3 week `parasite protocol' I want to do first, and a basic 10-day intensive probiotic treatment that I got before this thread popped up (which I'm sure will have NO effect, just like others I've tried)...... so, I'll be doing those things first before I decide about the Progurt. Oh, and I might want to do a round of MiraLax before I attempt either of the first two.... things. So, I'm a ways away from committing to this.

If we could get our bowels moving properly, I can't help but think our over-all health would improve.
 

---

Posted by capebite (Member # 9789) on :
 
Can it be made added to goat milk??
 

---

Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Robert told me similar: yes it CAN be made with soy and goat milk, but not as well, esp. due to the delicacy of goat milk.

I think it is worth mentioning again that I have had major sensitivity/allergy whatever you wanna call it to milk products, was on dairy-free diet for 2 years w/o a day off, started on a liter a day of this product and have tolerated it just fine
 

---

Posted by Lymic (Member # 19335) on :
 
Hi Joey and Scott, would you have any update on your experience with Progurt? Thank you.

Lymic
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
No update. Still using it. Plan to continue. Just ordered another batch.
 

---

Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Fungal infections & mold staying down, but candida specifically still an issue and needed to be treated with bionic. I'm not sure why, but my doc whom is now also using the progurt tells me it affects molds and yeast differently.

Also, she told me progurt sequestered mercury from the gut, so the binders are still in full effect.

A family member that wants nothing to do with dairy is trying the product with hemp milk. So is my doctor, whom insists east asians can't handle milk even in denatured form. She said the hemp version still tests very strong. It doesn't set like yogurt, but the liquid sours and ends up tasting a bit like slightly soured ovaltine.

Still on original dosage.
 

---

Posted by Lymic (Member # 19335) on :
 
Thank you to you both, Scott and Joey. I hope you continue to improve with this product. Please continue to keep us posted.

Lymic
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Yes, thanks for the updates.
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
My package from Progurt just arrived, so I should be eating my 1st batch soon...
 

---

Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
I noticed on the website that you could use goat's milk, instead of cow's milk. I know that Joey said even though he was allergic to cow's milk he could still use it in progurt, but I might opt for goat's milk (if I can find it).

How much progurt does one satchel make? I apologize if this had been answered and I missed it?

Hiker53
 

---

Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
Zombie, I'll be waiting to hear all about your response, specifically I hope it goes well!
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Good luck, Zombie. Can't wait to hear your initial report.
 

---

Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
good luck zombie! hope you have good results with it
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
So, I ate some yesterday for the first time. Had .5L then and another .5L today. I used 2% UHT milk as full fat UHT seems to be made of unobtainium around here.

I feel pretty good right now but it's too early to tell if it is because of Progurt or just coincidental...

My speech is definitely better today, not as slurred as it often is and I feel more energetic than usual.

I feel I should also mention that I had been suffering with a bad cold for a few days but my cold syx seemed to clear up right after my 1st dose of Progurt.


As far as GI stuff goes, I did have a BM today (have not had one for 3 days) but it is hard to say yet if Progurt helped with this or not.

If I start to, ah, 'produce' more regularly, I will be very happy as I often only manage 1/week due to gut palsy. I'll be sure to give you all the (poop) scoop!

I'm not having any issues with gas or discomfort so far. If anything, my gut feels better than it usually does.


PS Hiker, 1 satchel=1L of yogurt

[ 04-04-2009, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: zombie_mummy ]
 

---

Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Thanks, Zombie for the info on how much one satchel makes. You and I seeem to have opposite gut problems and thus I cannot gain the weight I need. Hiker53
 

---

Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
haha unobtanium. love it
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 

 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
TMI alert:

This is mainly a report for Littlelymie and Truthfinder (and anyone else with gut palsy who might be interested):

I had another BM this morning

It wasn't very substantial but I'm still pretty pleased. 2 days in a row is *very* good for me.
 

---

Posted by efsd25 (Member # 2272) on :
 
Scott, just ordered a progert budget kit. I'll ease into it. Thanks for scouting this out and sharing.

You are doing a great job!!!!!

Thanks, Ernie
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hey, thanks, Zombie..... your TMI report is music to my ears.... and the 'unobtainium' term was a good one, for sure. (What kind of place doesn't have whole milk anyway?)

A Progurt 'budget kit', Ernie? So, how much will you be taking a day, then?
 

---

Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
Wooo Hooo...

Keep the potty reports up They give me hope for me and my broken plumbing! hahaha...
 

---

Posted by Alv (Member # 15192) on :
 
HI Zomby_mommy!
Keep reporting please.I am so looking into using it also !
 

---

Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
 
Another busted gut watching, Zombie.

Thanks!
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
Thanks everyone I do feel a bit funny about sharing my bowel issues on the WWW but it seems so many others are having similar problems.

I'm pleased to report today that I'm batting 3 for 3... I can't remember the last time this happened.

My belly is doing the happy dance!

I'm beginning to think that Progurt really is worth the expense.

Mister Zombie was rather annoyed with me when I told him how much it cost but he is coming around now that he is seeing a positive change in me.

I guess when you have a wife who is always grumpy about never pooping, 10-20 bucks a day doesn't seem so bad...

Thank you Scott for bringing this to our attention.
 

---

Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
 
Good to hear people are doing well with this. I don't have an issue with Bell's Palsey of the gut or most intestinal problems so it seemed alot to spend on a probiotic.

If you're ill - any amount to spend on getting well is worthwhile if you can manage it.
 

---

Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
 
Well Zombie if you keep that batting average cost won't matter. You'll be signed to a contract with a professional baseball team.
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthfinder:
(What kind of place doesn't have whole milk anyway?)

---

I'm in Canada. I can get fresh whole milk no problem but not full-fat UHT milk (that sterilized stuff that comes in a tetra-pak), only 2% UHT.

The Progurt manufacturer instructions specifically call for UHT milk.

Don't know why, it does not seem to be a popular product here.

Mister Zombie went to every health food and grocery store around here and there was none to be found.

[ 04-06-2009, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: zombie_mummy ]
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Sparkle, this isn't your everyday, average probiotic. Everything I hear and read about it indicates that this product utilizes gut flora that are old, old, old friends of ours that have been ignored in favor of the easy-to-culture products we're familiar with.

Zombie, you are too funny..... I sort of knew you were from Canada because of the `Canuckistan' location, LOL. That got a good laugh from me right from the start....

Wow, 3 in a row. Maybe some folks wouldn't understand the significance of that, but I certainly do. I feel like passing out cigars or something.

This is amazing. I'd come to the conclusion that my elimination issue - the gut palsy thing - was an autonomic problem. Well, maybe that still makes sense if you consider that most neurotransmitters are generated in the gut, not the brain.....

Okay, seriously now, am I to understand that `UHT' milk is something different than regular 4% (full fat) pasteurized milk available in every grocery store here in the USA? Because if it is, then I've got a problem getting it, too.
 

---

Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
What is UHT milk?

LP
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
UHT milk is the pre-sterilized stuff that does not need refrigeration while unopened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high_temperature_processing

In my grocery store, it is found on the same shelf with the soy and rice milks in tetra-paks.


PS I'm pleased to say that the regularity continues
 

---

Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
Does it make a difference if you use the UHT milk or regular 1%, 2% or whole milk?
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Yes, they say it should be WHOLE milk.
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by tosho:
Hi, could anyone tell me what is the price for progurt? Does it need to be transported in low temperature (shipping). Thanks.

---

It's $180.00-680.00 US, depending what package you order.

http://www.progurt.com/downloads/Progurt_Order_Form.pdf

The sachets arrived in little insulated envelopes.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Scott, do you use unrefrigerated stuff on the shelf, or the refrigerated 'regular' milk?

I'm still not clear on this.
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I use refrigerated milk and then refrigerate the end product after the Progurt final product is made.
 

---

Posted by sonee123 (Member # 18632) on :
 
Scott,

You have been using progurt the longest.....how has it helped you? With what symptoms and are you taking any abx along with this prod?
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I am not taking any antibiotics. I probably would not find this worth doing if I were still on antibiotics. The benefit might be less pronounced as the antibiotics kill probiotics.

I've noticed more energy, reduction of fungal issues, some visual improvement, more exercise tolerance. It's harder for me to point at specific items since I have been at about 90% for a bit now.
 

---

Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
 
Scott, I've asked this several times but didn't get a response. If you're at 90% (which is great), how on earth do you know which things are worth investing an enormous amount of $$$ into when you treat things? A 10% differential isn't that big I'd imagine at that level. Is it cost effective?

I'm trying to understand your rationale behind all these treatment protocols. Or maybe you decline in health if you don't do them all? If we're talking $500+ for probotics, I'd have to think it must be a MAJOR improvement to continue. This helps people get an idea how to get the best bang for their buck.

When we're talking about relatively high ticket treatment options, just trying things randomly sure can break one fast (most people).

I actually just spent some time reviewing your treatment protocol(s) on your website. All I can say is WOW. There are literally three pages full of supplements along with endless other things. I've never seen anything so comprehensive. With all that IMO, it's like dropping a needle on a cubic yard of dirt and seeing if a difference can be noticed.

It's your body and i'm sure you can tell. Good luck with everything. It seems to be something most, if not all here, could realistically do.
 

---

Posted by steve1906 (Member # 16206) on :
 
I just have two questions:

1- Can anyone tell me if this product (Progurt) has any side effects?

2- And can it be dangerous in anyway?

Thank you!!!

[ 04-07-2009, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: steve1906 ]
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Thanks, Scott. (Thank goodness!)

So, Miss Canuckistan, maybe you could use regular, pasteurized, full-fat milk instead of the UHT stuff. I'm sure both the UHT and 'whole milk' instructions are important, but if memory serves, it is the fat in milk that contains a lot of enzymes that help us digest it. For instance, I can digest butter but I don't do well with any kind of plain milk.
 

---

Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
My dh is now being treated for cdiff.. I would think the progurt would be very good for him AFTER he completes abx (if ever?)?

He is to take 3 therelac a day. I am thinking he should take a variety of probiotics... ?

The 700 is only for one month, right, then you taper down?

I'll call these people.

Anyone get cdiff and be able to go back on abx that dont directly address cdiff.. like most of them?
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthfinder:
So, Miss Canuckistan, maybe you could use regular, pasteurized, full-fat milk instead of the UHT stuff.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve1906:
I just have two questions:

1- Can anyone tell me if this product (Progurt) has any side effects?

2- And can it be dangerous in anyway?

---

The have been no noticeable side effects for me so far, other than improved bowel function.

The FAQs on the website state that it is safe for all, including children and pregnant women.

I gave a little amount mixed with honey to my 2 yr old yesterday to help her with a bit of constipation trouble. She loved it and it worked like a charm.
 

---

Posted by sonee123 (Member # 18632) on :
 
I read up alot on this product and it seems to help alot of people with MS....i mean BIG improvement.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Oh, Robin - very sorry to hear that about your dh! I hope you do contact the Progurt people and see what they might suggest. I'd like to know, too.

If your hubby was not taking Saccharomyces boulardii or Florastor or one of the products out there with S. boulardii in it, then that might be a suggestion. Do a search here - there have been a number of discussions about it.

Thanks, Zombie. Here in the U.S., UHT requires `aseptic' (sterile processing conditions and packaging) with no set temperature or time for heating (that I could come up with). Strange.

In the U.S., we may have to settle for `ultra-pasteurized' whole milk, which has to be subjected to 280�F for at least 2 seconds. I don't know. I'll have to see what's available here.

I wish the industry could figure out a new way to `sterilize' milk products. Heating processes sure destroy any real `food' value in milk, and some say it's a cause of `leaky gut' since the body can no longer recognize the protein molecules.

Sonee, is there a specific website where you found a lot of info on Progurt and MS? I've seen some general references to MS and even diabetes, but just bits and pieces.
 

---

Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
R62--

the cost is case by case. Some people may be able to taper down within a few months similar to Scott, but I imagine I'll be on the full dose for longer. But if it becomes unaffordable, I still think taking the same dollar amount of progurt vs. the same dollar amount of any other probiotic I've tried would be a good choice based on my response thus far.
 

---

Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
Thankyou, Tracy. It's not confirmed per testing, but suspected with the fever and violence of it. We put him on the Florastor in addition to Therelac. He's on flagyl now.

Good point, Joey.. thank you. I didnt think to think of that.. very good point..
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
And if you consider that after 9-13 months, you don't need much if any to keep this going, it is longer-term not as bad as it looks. Once you colonize the gut, the bugs will replicate themselves enough that maybe a glass a week or so is enough.
 

---

Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
Do the Nutramedix herbs also kill beneficial flora? Is there any protocol beside immune enhancers or homeopathy, rife or photons one can use while on progurt without wasting the money... ?? Looks like AI is ok to do with progurt.. Thanks..
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Not Progurt. The only things known to kill these strains are hard core RX drugs / antibiotics. They are not impacted by garlic, silver, etc.

I am doing my normal protocol with natural antimicrobials, etc. with Progurt.
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
I've been using Progurt for just over a week and am pleased to report that it seems to to be helping me greatly.

Over the past 8 days, I have managed to move my bowels 7X.

Prior to using this product, I was only managing a BM once every 3-7 days or so due to gut palsy.

I'm also seeing some small improvements with my neuro syx (muscle weakness, slurred speech).

I seem to be having less trouble getting up out of a chair and my gait has improved.

I'm currently using 1L/day.
 

---

Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
 
Still wondering Scott. It's a legitimate question to you or really anyone taking many supplements at once and adding more. I too am in this boat wondering why to take what and value from it. I won't ask again if I get no direct response this time. Thanks.

Original Post

Scott, I've asked this several times but didn't get a response. If you're at 90% (which is great), how on earth do you know which things are worth investing an enormous amount of $$$ into when you treat things? A 10% differential isn't that big I'd imagine at that level. Is it cost effective?

I'm trying to understand your rationale behind all these treatment protocols. Or maybe you decline in health if you don't do them all? If we're talking $500+ for probotics, I'd have to think it must be a MAJOR improvement to continue. This helps people get an idea how to get the best bang for their buck.

When we're talking about relatively high ticket treatment options, just trying things randomly sure can break one fast (most people).

I actually just spent some time reviewing your treatment protocol(s) on your website. All I can say is WOW. There are literally three pages full of supplements along with endless other things. I've never seen anything so comprehensive. With all that IMO, it's like dropping a needle on a cubic yard of dirt and seeing if a difference can be noticed.

It's your body and i'm sure you can tell. Good luck with everything. It seems to be something most, if not all here, could realistically do.
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I use energetic testing to guide my plan. If it tests as beneficial, I incorporate it into my plan working with my doctors.

It goes up and down in terms of the number of things that I am taking at any given time. The focus now is on detox and regeneration and much less on microbes except for energetic therapies such as the photons and a couple of the natural supplements that are on my list.

The number one investment we can make is in our health.
 

---

Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
Thank you, Scott. Thanks for the updates everyone.
 

---

Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Robin, hopefully the Flagyl will knock it. C. diff. is such a nasty, nasty bug. There are lots of really good tips on BorreliaBrain's thread, which I'm sure you've already read, but in case you haven't:
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/79661

Wow, that's terrific Zombie!

Are you taking other things to help with GI issues (like fiber, prunes, magnesium, aloe vera, whatever) or is Progurt pretty much it at this point?

I keep revisiting the Progurt website..... either there is more information there than before, or I sure missed a lot in the beginning.

Okay, another question: Anyone notice either improvement or worsening of foul-smelling `flatulence' after starting the Progurt?

I've been taking a measly 30 billion CFU daily probiotic (Primadophilus - standard acidophilus and bifidus) + an inulin prebioitic on a regular basis for over a month now. It does seem to help my bowel- inactivity issues somewhat, but it also seems to cause a lot of offensive gas. Not always, but more often than not.

I can't imagine what 500 billion CFU a day would do.....! I would hate to asphyxiate my dog.

FYI, I've also experimented with taking just the Primadophilus without the inulin (or sometimes I use FOS), and there is no comparison. Without a prebiotic, there is very little change or benefit. I was very surprised that it would make SO much difference.
 

---

Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
 
Thanks Scott.
 

---

Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
Thanks for the feedback on the Progurt Zombie Mummy thats great news! I've been pondering on whether to try it for a while but as its quite expensive I decided to wait until I had heard more reports.

I'm really glad to hear that its helping you...even small improvements in the neuro issues must be very encouraging!

I might well invest in it soon.

Really hope it continues to help you!
 

---

Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
Thanks Shimmy, Truthfinder.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthfinder:
Wow, that's terrific Zombie!

Are you taking other things to help with GI issues (like fiber, prunes, magnesium, aloe vera, whatever) or is Progurt pretty much it at this point?
...
Okay, another question: Anyone notice either improvement or worsening of foul-smelling `flatulence' after starting the Progurt?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hiker53:
Can progurt make you spend less time on the toilet. I have the opposite problem from zombie and some of the others. I need to slow down my bowels.

Hiker53

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hiker53:
Can progurt make you spend less time on the toilet. I have the opposite problem from zombie and some of the others. I need to slow down my bowels.

---

According to the Progurt website, it claims to help with the following bowel issues:

"Diarrhoea
Constipation
Indigestion
Abdominal pain
Chronic fatigue
Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)
Flatulence
Ulcerative Colitis
Crohn's Disease"

http://www.progurt.com/for_illness_bowel_conditions.htm
 

---

Posted by NanaDubo (Member # 14794) on :
 
You can order organic, UHT, whole milk on Amazon if you can't find it locally.
 

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Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
zombie, I am going to start the SCD. My gut is a wreck. I was on it before all but making yogurt. When you make the progurt for 24 hours, what temp do you use? Does the unit allow you to make the 24 hour yogurt.. does it stay on? Thanks..
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
There is no temp setting with the machine..it is preset
 

---

Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
You don't use a temp. You use their machine. It has on and it has off.
 

---

Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
I haven't bought Progurt, but I'm wondering what kind of results those of you using it are getting from it.
 

---

Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
Hi everyone,

Just thought I'd let you know that I also decided to try the Progurt as I've just ran out of my regular probiotics.

I spoke to the guy at Progurt and he said I could just try the sachets in water first of all without fermenting it as Im a bit concerned that I might react to the Progurt as I'm dairy sensitive ... Ive had gut problems for yrs and cant even tolerate kefir with goats or cows milk so I hope I can tolerate the Progurt..heres hoping! Anyway he reckons just taking the sachets first might help to prepare my gut for the full onslaught of the Progurt :-)

We'll see anyway & I'll keep you all posted on how I get on with it.

Hope everyone is doing well.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
It doesn't work as well in water. Most people here that have tried it had some dairy issues and it doesn't seem to be too problematic.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
You may be better off trying to use coconut milk or hemp milk to ferment if you're truly averse to the milk. One of my family members is using hemp milk, and so is my doctor.
 

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Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
Thnx Scott & Joey! I think he was just suggesting that I try the sachets first of all just to prepare my gut then move on to making the liquid with cows milk when I order the next batch. It would be great if the dairy version does suit me, otherwise hemp or coconut milk might be good alternatives!

Joey are your doctor and family member getting benefits from using the Progurt with hemp milk?

Cheers
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I will find out from my doctor tomorrow, but my family member is
 

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Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
Is almond milk too thin to use to make the progurt?
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
The progurt owner told me there isn't enough fat to set, and I've read in other sites it generally doesn't set. Among the nut, grain-based milks, hemp has the most fat. Although sometimes the hemp doesn't set either!!! No sure why the inconsistency.. either the milk or the incubator haha, not many suspects
 

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Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
Got it. Makes sense. I just wish there wasn't so many darn additives in hemp milk. I know that in the case of the hemp milk that my local health food store sells, all of the additives are "natural". Natural or not though, it's just more to react to. Being a "universal reactor", I can't seem to figure out how I'd consume the progurt without causing more harm than good!

I WILL figure it out though because there is no doubt in my mind that the product itself would help me and my ever-so-dysfunctional gut.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
http://www.manitobaharvest.com/cartshop/productview.asp?key=41

My fam isn't using this one because the Living Harvest one sets better, but from what I hear, as long as it sours, fermentation has occurred.

There is nothing in the Manitoba hemp besides organic hemp, sea salt, water, and xanthan gum

Also, despite what Living Harvest label says, their hemp is also organic. It's just that they add synthetic vitamins to their milk.
 

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Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
m0joey, I'm pretty sure you just made my day.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
mission accomplished.
 

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Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
Thanks Joey, thats good to know the hemp Progurt is helping someone in your family!

Cheers :-)
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
This is exciting.

Good luck, Shimmy.

Robin, what's SCD? (I've just about maxed out my lifetime acronym threshold.)

Zombie, are you still having daily results (or nearly so)?

I still have trouble understanding how little digestive bugs can normalize muscular rhythms in the gut..... this just amazes me.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
SCD = Specific Carboyhdrate Diet
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
For those interested, here is the SCD website:

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/

Here is a brief synopsis of what the SCDiet entails:

"Some general guidelines are, no grains (i.e. rice, wheat, corn, oats, etc.), no processed foods, no starchy vegetables (i.e. potatoes, yams, etc.), no canned vegetables of any kind, no flour, no sugar, no sweeteners other than honey and saccharin, and no milk products except for homemade yogurt fermented for 24 hours, prepared according to the instructions in the book."
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
And yes, I am still having good daily results with the Progurt + SCD.


 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Ok so I may just have suffered the brain fart of the Progurt era. Because of yeast, I opted to go with unsweetened hemp milk for family member, and in an earlier post I said it's never fully set. My doc reminded me today that whole milk has 12g of sugar!!! The probiotics feed on sugar during glycolysis and it should convert
to lactic acid.

For those of you that plan on using hemp milk or other nut-based milk, high fat content may not be enough. The Manitoba aka Hemp Bliss original has 7g of fat and 6g of sugar per serving. The vanilla has the same fat but 13g of sugar, rivaling whole milk. That seems to be the best match. I will experiment with the sweetened hemp and see if it sets better tonight.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Ah, yes - Specific Carbo. Diet - thanks Scott and Zombie for info on that. (Great news, Zombie.)

Speaking of lactic acid........ if anyone was following James Case and his last `discovery' before he left the board, some of the hints he gave suggested lactic acid might be the mystery Bb `killer' he discovered. Just one of the hints he gave out before he left was to `eat a lot of yogurt'.

Also, in my Lyme notes, I found this:

``Borrelia-b: Glucose provides its major energy source and lactic acid is the predominant metabolic end product.'' ( From Franz V's ``Monera'' book)

Does anyone know if this is correct? (It's impossible to try to Google this and come up with anything to verify it.)

Back in my days researching Fibromyalgia, it seems like the presence of lactic acid in muscles was thought to be the cause of chronic pain for many Fibro patients.....

I'm just sort of thinking out loud here, wondering what role lactic acid may have in this whole Lyme process.....

For instance, is it possible that the reason Lyme (and Fibro) tends to attack one area of the body, then move to another area is that it cannot thrive in a certain concentration of it's own `excreta', i.e. lactic acid? (Sorry, this probably isn't the right thread in which to speculate, but I suspect that there's some connection here.)
 

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Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
 
About Latic Acid and Sanum. The only thing I use to regulate pH is Sanuvis, a mix of Latic acid potencies. It can be rubbed or ingested.

--
There's a good article about functions of acid latic in the body. The summary is below:

On the basis of the above
symptoms, SANUVIS 2X is an
ideal remedy for the regulation of
disordered metabolic processes
resulting from stress, dietary errors,
imbalance in the acid-alkaline
economy and lack of movement,
and for the activation of cell
respiration.

http://www.sanum.com/literature/SP74_Sanuvis_Kracke.pdf

It is certainly involved in energy of the cells together with the citric acid cycle.

an interesting part of the article says that:
In a hyperacidic body the
tissue is acid because of
accumulation of acids and metabolic
waste, whilst the pH value of the
blood becomes more strongly
alkaline.

Another interesting part:

A prescription of dextro
rotatory lactic acid is
indispensable, since this activates
cell respiration, favourably
influences the acid-alkaline
balance, stimulates the activity of
the organs responsible for
detoxification and that of the
adrenals, and strengthens the
immune system by giving
improved support to the functions
of fermentation.

In years of
experiments both Dr. Dr. Seeger
and Dr. Reckeweg found that
good therapeutic results are only
obtainable when pure
attenuations of dextro rotatory
lactic acid are prescribed.
 

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Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
Also speaking of lactic acid.. I am still curious as to what about the weston price diet that has seemingly put Dr. Ron Schmid into remission or control or whatever of his lyme. From what I understand, he eats a lot of fermented vegetables, raw milk, close to raw meats.. yes.. and I think other ferments. Isnt that a lactic acid heavy diet or do I have that wrong?
 

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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
Very Interesting about the lactic acid. I've always wondered if there was a connection with keeping lyme at bay.

My daughter (who has lyme and co.) has very high lactic acid build up due to her intense competitive swim practices. The coach tests the team regularly by taking blood pricks from their ear lobes during the work outs and measuring it for lactic acid build up. A MD comes to help him and they chart it on the computer during a two hour swim workout of varying intensities.

Hers is always very high very quickly, compared to the other swimmers. And it takes her longer in warm downs to release it, if she even does. It is interesting to see the difference in her graphs and the other swimmers. Her chart is a line that moves very high on a steep grade and stays high, where the others gradually show an incline and then a gradual decline. She cannot do the distance sets that the other swimmers can do, usually to lactic acid build up in her arms. She says they feel like lead.

The LLMD believes she is doing better physically than average with her symptoms because of the swimming. Even though she wonders how in the world she can exercise at that level of activity, knowing how sick she is. When she stops practicing for a while, she gets very sick. So she keeps it up!

I would love to know if there is a connection.
 

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Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
Diet and Recovery from Chronic Disease, Dr. Ron Schmid:

http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/chronicdisease.html
 

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Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
How are you all judging when to start backing down the amount you consume?

How are you determining at what amount to start?

Does the Progurt company come up with an plan with you?

Thanks..
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Selma, that article has amazing information! This may answer SO many questions, about how `lactic acid' seems to be both harmful and wonderful..... You may have provided the `missing link' here to the Progurt benefits!

I had no idea there were 2 types of lactic acid.... and as your quote pointed out, the dextro rotatory lactic acid (the L(+) form) could be a huge factor in detoxification, immune function, pH balance, cell respiration and oxygenation ......so many things we face with chronic illness.

I find this in my Repertories as `Sarcolactic Acid'. The remedy has been around forever! I'll have to read up on it.

Other quotes from the article:

quote:

---

......L-lactic acid... and D-lactic
acid.... This structural difference within the same summative formula results in their ability to rotate polarized light in different directions.
[biophotons anyone?]

We therefore
distinguish between dextro rotatory
L(+)- and laevo rotatory (D-)-lactic
acid, and their lactates.

....Laevo rotatory lactic acid [D- type], on the
other hand, causes substantial
damage to normal metabolism. It
can result in intoxication, with
neurological symptoms, dulling of
consciousness and behavioural
disturbances. This is also the reason
why baby foods should never
contain either D(-)-lactic acid
or any racemate [combination of both lactic acids].

For a long time it was thought that
aching muscles were the result of an
accumulation of lactate. Today the
cause is known to be minutely
damaged and torn fibres.

---

quote:

---

In products
which are naturally fermented by
lactic acid (milk, sauerkraut, beans,
cucumbers) both forms of lactic acid
occur as a mixture, a racemate.

By dint of skilful inoculation with the appropriate lactobacilli it is possible to promote the formation of L(+)-lactic acid in such products. [the good stuff]

.....A nutritional adjustment has to
take place, with a move towards
a diet rich in vital foods, free of
products containing cow's milk,
hen's eggs and pork.

---

So, cow's milk products are generally out, unless they are carefully `cultured' to produce the proper lactic acid..... (wonder why eggs are out?)

Hmmmm. Is this the secret of Progurt?!!.... They've carefully cultured the proper lactobacilli to generate the formation of the `beneficial' form of lactic acid - the L(+) form?

And wouldn't this explain why it is so VERY crucial that UHT or ultra-pasteurized milk be used to insure that no racemates (mixtures of lactic acids) occur during incubation?

I REALLY encourage others to read this article that Selma posted about.

The Ron Schmidt's story is of interest, R62 - apparently he is a proponent of raw mild and nearly raw animal products. Much of what he talked about I could relate to from experience - things that should make me feel better really didn't, etc.

LP, that is VERY interesting..... I had no idea they could `monitor' lactic acid levels in the body, for starters. I think we've hit on something important here.
 

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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
Tracy,
I don't believe the average american gets tested for lactic acid levels. I only know that endurance athletes, particularly swimmers who swim distance events, like the mile or open water competitions learn to be aware of their levels. I would bet that runners do as well, like marathoners, although they don't have to deal with the resistance of water on their arm muscles as swimmers do with the lactic acid build up there.

I"m sure the Olympic Training Center in CO would have more info on this as they work with all high level athletes in each sport. They also are heavily involved in diet, nutrition, and hydration along with recovery. They probably could offer much data for any researcher.

This is interesting.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Update: We tried to incubate with sweetened hemp milk, and at 24 hrs the end product was still sweet so the sugar wasn't entirely converted to lactic acid.

We still stay with the unsweetened hemp milk
 

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Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Okay, not trying to be negative, trying to understand. Will the progurt bacteria replicate in the gut. Scott talked about it colonizing and so you could taper down eventually. Does that mean it reproduces in the gut?


Finally, if I just want to start with sachet due to milk sensivity do I just pour the sachet in a glass of water and drink the whole satchel at once. I called the guy in Australia and he said to try 3-4 satchels per week without the milk, but I forgot to ask if it was one whole satchel at a time or to divide them up.

Anyone know? I hate to make another phone call.

Help, please. Hiker53

[ 04-27-2009, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: hiker53 ]
 

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Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
Is aseptic milk the same as UHT milk? Hiker53
 

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Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
 
why can't you just make yogurt at home?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
You can.

Make yogurt and you get the benefit of yogurt.
Make Progurt and you get the benefit of Progurt.

Two different things entirely.
 

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Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
HMF says its human derived.. whats the difference between this and progurt..

http://www.rockwellnutrition.net/HMF-Intensive-no-FOS-Probiotics-by-Genestra-30-caps-NON-RETURNABLE_p_239.html

I didnt know these strains were human...
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Don't know. Never tried it. Let us know if you do. So far, I've not seen anything else compare but worth a try. I took HLC Human Strain for awhile and didn't notice anything like with Progurt.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I got my metametrix GI function profile back:

bad/good bacteria in good balance
no parasites detected (they have the most sensitive DNA testing for parasites available)
yeast still +3 (very high)

So everything looks like it's in good balance. I wish I'd done this test before progurt to compare and contrast

Yeast has always been a huge issue for me, and although my doctor rarely sees it higher than +1, +2, she said before Progurt it may have been +4, +5
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Hiker, I'm not sure on that, but suspect that `aseptic' milk would suffice. I can't answer your other question - does Robert answer e-mails? You might try that instead of calling.

Interesting R62.... I spent half an hour trying to sort out their probiotic products and came away totally confused. And why some have FOS and some don't is confusing, too. I looked up `constipation' and they don't recommend ANY of their probiotic products as helpful for that. I find that odd.

Well, I've been taking sachets of 100 billion CFU of gut flora for the past 2 days - just standard-type probiotics that we're all familiar with - and not much is happening. (That's the `bug equivalent' of a small bowl of prepared Progurt.)

Perhaps this proves that I am not a cow.
 

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Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
HI Hiker53 & All

Just to give an update, I spoke to Robert at Progurt last night and he told me to pour a sachet into my mouth and then drink some water to wash it down, then drink a glass of water 15mins later.

Previously Ive been empyting one sachet into a large glass of water and drinking it all at once. I tried the way he suggested today and it is doable but it is a bit tricky too because the powder ends up getting stuck in your throat and up your nose making you cough before you're able to down the water!! I'm not sure why he suggested taking it that way and I didnt have a chance to ask him last night as it was very late.

Ive been taking the sachets (one a day) since Friday bar one day and as far as my reactions, Ive been having more bowel movements and I think I have more energy too which is good news... eg this morning I had more strength than usual, esp in my legs which did feel unusual (I am in stage 5-6 adrenal exhaustion). Progurt is the only new thing I'm taking at the moment so I'm pretty sure its down to that...Ive even stopped taking my thyroid meds to see the effects of the Progurt.

I think that it is stirring up candida & mercury too as Ive also been feeling more toxic in my head aswell, sometimes severely so tho I am not sure if that is completely down to the progurt.

So overall I definitely feel its doing something significant and will stick with it and will try making the liquid when my incubator arrives.

Take care
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
I wonder why the powder can't be mixed with water or something....?

The sachets I am taking - it says to mix the powder into applesauce or juice. I use applesauce and it works great.
 

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Posted by kimwg (Member # 19094) on :
 
FYI -- I have been taking 1 cup of Progurt for 3 days now, I have had a decrease in my diarrhea -- HOWEVER, I have also (coincidentally) been off Omnicef during that time while my doc switches me to Ceftin, so I can't say if the change is due to the Progurt or stopping the Omnicef.

Hopefully I will be able to keep the poops at bay once I start the Ceftin!
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
shimmy--

re: candida & mercury

that's exactly what happened to me

-joey
 

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Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
Hi Joey,

Did it settle down after a while in your case?
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I didn't exactly let it settle. Chelators/binders/bionic for candida
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Shimmy, I'd DEFINITELY continue to mix the powder in a glass of water and drink it..... taking ANY powder like that can be dangerous because it's so easy to aspirate it into your lungs. And BTW, last night I finally talked to the lady who will be carrying Progurt sachets in the USA (see other thread about that here at LN), and Robert told her to mix the powder in water and drink it. (This was before she had an incubator machine.)

Joey, your tests look good! Even your yeast appears to be responding.

I'm not sure I like the sound of stirring up yeast and heavy metals.... for starters, I'm not sure I would know the signs that this was happening. Besides, I haven't tolerated most of the binders that are often used, except fiber. I was hoping the Progurt itself would help with the elimination of this junk through the bowel.

Something else I learned from talking to the `Progurt USA lady'....

If you use Ultra-pasteurized milk - or any milk that is refrigerated - you have to allow an additional 2 hours or so in the incubator. (Or perhaps you could let your refrigerated milk come to room temp before putting it in the incubator. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.) The incubators were designed to be used with UHT milk which requires no refrigeration. Therefore, it will take longer for chilled milk to come to the proper temperature to incubate the Progurt product.

I continue to have zero results with 100 billion CFU of `regular' acidophilis/bifidus product. In fact, I finally had to resort to taking some herbs to help things move on through. However, I did have a couple of days where my diet was pretty bad, so I know that was a contributing factor.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Maybe it will settle down in time, but it does seem like a big risk to wait it out. The Progurt is a push therapy... we're pounding the gut with high dose beneficial flora, so there will be a redox reaction

I would definitely err on the side caution and take binders/chelators if you know for a fact you have metals.

Pectasol seems to be tolerated pretty well. I'm taking metal-free now which is on the expensive side but supposedly envelops metals rather than binds them and exits fecal route. If you want anymore suggestions feel free to PM

As for binders, the green clay that is sold at biopure also seems very well tolerated, and there is supposedly zeolite in there as well

-joey
 

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Posted by shimmy (Member # 15883) on :
 
Cheers Joey, yes you definitely have to keep on top of things! I'm taking the Dr Schulze formula with charcoal, bentonite clay etc, it is helping a bit.

Hi Tracy

Thanks for that, yes it doesnt seem to be a good idea to take it that way does it, I dont know why he suggested it. I think I will go back to just taking it in water, I'm pretty sure thats how he told me to take it first time round! Plus it seemed to work fine that way anyway.

It is difficult to know whats happening as it could be having an effect on other bugs in my gut but my intuition tells me its candida/metals... symptoms have been worsened brain fog, memory loss, decline in cognitive/analytical abilities, neurological symptoms eg my right arm starts to feel clumsy, a lot of irritability, feelings of unreality and feeling very detached from the world. I also start to feel worse in front of my computer and this has been happening too.

I am pretty sensitive tho and I have a big metal problem, I remember having a pretty strong reaction to kefir in the past when I took a small dose and the die-off was so bad I lost my memory so I was kind of expecting something similar.

I am definitely feeling some benefits tho too so its not all bad :-)

Progurt does help to eliminate but maybe as it works so well in eliminating candida it is inevitable that metals are going to be stirred up too.

Thanks for the extra info re the milk, thats good to know!
 

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Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
 
Anyone know of a binder that doesn't actually bind ya up?

My issue with toxin binders is that I've found them to be very constipating, which is counterproductive in the detox process.

I'm thinking of starting progurt soon, but I know I have an extremely heavy metal load so I want to get all of these minor details sorted out before I order.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I've heard that the green clay doesn't constipate like regular ol bentonite clay. If however you do get constipated, ground up flax seed is supposed to help.

However, I've been taking glucomannan (konjac fiber) for the last year,and it has never bound me up. it's water soluble so it works different from the other binders, but supposedly just as effectively. Glucomannan is actually the only true toxin binder I've taken for the last year... since pectasol and chlorella both go into the bloodstream. We need both kinds--binders that bind to chelated metals in bloodstream and pure fiber fibers that mop up the gut
 

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Posted by Clancy (Member # 8774) on :
 
Truthfinder, Besides having to keep the progurt in the machine for an extra 2 hours when using the ultra pasteurized whole milk, did the "US progurt lady" say it has to be boiled also? Thanks.
 

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Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
 
as far as i know chlorella doesn't bind you up. it sometimes has the opposite effect, in fact.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Well, my post just vanished into thin air....

Welcome, Shimmy.

Little Lymie, I have the very same problem with most binders.

Thanks, Joey - not heard of most of that! Where do you get the glucomannan?

Clancy, the 'US Progurt lady' did not boil the ultra-pasteurized milk. I'm sure she would have said so if she was told to boil it (by Robert).

Yep, chlorella - even the chlorella-p. from BioPure - can bind me up, but then I'm not exactly normal. Even ground flax seed is a problem, mostly that it causes a lot of pain no matter how fine I grind it up. Tried pre-ground stuff, too - same problem.
 

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Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
 
When you make yogurt you warm the milk. Why wouldnt this be different?

You get more bang for the buck when you ferment the grains, right? They multiply when you ferment.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
R62, I'll be honest - I'm not altogether sure now much increase in volume of bugs you get when you incubate the Progurt. I suspect that it has more to do with converting the lactose into lactic acid and the additional benefits of that conversion..... but who knows. I may be way off base.

Along those same lines, though it may be possible to `culture' your own Progurt from a previous batch, I wouldn't do it. Two reasons:

1. I wouldn't want to culture any `errant' bacteria - it's always possible that some bacteria could mutate slightly and/or become pathogenic. That's the last thing I need. It's the pathogenic gut flora that may have gotten me into trouble in the first place. (I've studied a little about homeopathic Bowel Nosodes, and pathogenic gut flora is the basis for these remedies.)

2. It's also possible that a slight mutation or degradation of the bacteria would yield a different form of lactic acid. That would NOT be conducive to healing IMHO (see other info here about lactic acid).
 

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Posted by eds (Member # 5700) on :
 
You can culture any probiotic from a previous batch, but the mix of bacteria will change over successive batches because some bacteria proliferate easier/faster than others. Eventually, you would end up with yogurt that contained predominantly one or two strains.

All probiotic manufacturers are telling people they can't culture successive batches because people have been doing just that and it's depressed sales. Fact is, if it cultured in the first place, you can culture it from an existing batch. You don't want to do that more than a couple of times, but it is doable.

Most probiotic products probably have some contamination in them because the quantity of oxygen in the air is significantly lower than when people started making fermented products a couple of hundred years ago. Some manufacturers are controlling the oxygen levels in the vat as a way to improve the quality of the probiotics.

In order for probiotics to implant they have to be grown in a specific way in a colony. Most manufacturers don't do that because it is expensive and difficult and would likely lead to lower sales. Also, if your lymph glands ar clogged, then I've heard that the probiotics won't implant.

These are some of the things I uncovered by reading research papers and talking to people in the industry. I have not tried progurt yet, but will. I'll post my experience with culturing and taking it when I do.
 

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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
How is everyone doing with progurt?
 

---

Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
Has Progurt caused herxes for anyone?

LP
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Eds, most of what you say certainly sounds right. What I'd like to understand better are things like human versus bovine-strain bacteria, the ability of our human systems to implant ANY kind of bovine probiocs, whether most commercial products are as beneficial as we are led to believe, etc.

I'll say one thing.... the 'non-Progurt' sachets that I've ingested now for 9 days have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for me. In fact, I'm so bound up right now I could scream. It's probably the dang commercial applesause I've been mixing it with - known to cause me problems, but you would think the 1 billion bugs mixed in there would sort of override that problem.

Whatever the problem is, I haven't gained a thing from the non-Progurt bugs.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Here's something you might all appreciate.... I found this extremely disturbing.

Amateurs are trying genetic engineering at home
By MARCUS WOHLSEN (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
December 26, 2008 11:44 AM EST

In her San Francisco dining room lab, for example, 31-year-old computer programmer Meredith L. Patterson is trying to develop genetically altered yogurt bacteria that will glow green to signal the presence of melamine, the chemical that turned Chinese-made baby formula and pet food deadly......

But critics of the movement worry that these amateurs could one day unleash an environmental or medical disaster. ....

http://tinyurl.com/c24wr2
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Truthfinder, are you saying that you are doing something entirely different from Progurt or taking the Progurt sachets but not in the normal incubated form?
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Something entirely different from Progurt.

It comes in little sachets, but it isn't Progurt (and it doesn't claim to be human strain, isn't designed to be incubated, etc.)
 

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Posted by lymeX3 (Member # 3423) on :
 
I just received my Progurt incubator and was not happy with the plastic insert. You should never use plastic with heat and a fat based food. You are eating oil for all practical purposes. All of us already have many environmental toxins and do not need to add to the problem. An old fashion GLASS quart milk bottle fits snug in the incubator. The bottle is about 3.25"x3.5"x8". I would highly suggest all using this device to switch to glass. You can find these bottles anywhere, even on EBay. Just my two cents, hope it helps a few.

 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Read their web site on what the plastic does NOT contain. I think they've already considered this. They are also working on a glass version as I understand, but I think if you read their web site, you will have less concern. Also, the incubator does not get very hot. Before suggesting people do something different, I would suggest understanding the company statement on their existing plastic. I don't think it appears to be all that bad and already considered by the company.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
As an experiment, I made a double batch of 24H Progurt in my other yogurt maker (Yogourmet).

It turned out fine, no discernible difference from my Progurt incubator.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
There is no way for us to measure the probiotic viability in doing an experiment such as this. So, personally, for 70 dollars, it makes no sense to me why one would risk it.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Things the `USA Progurt Lady' told me:

The Progurt incubator was originally designed to hold the actual containers that 1-liter UHT milk comes in (in Australia), so no inserts at all were used, at first. So, it's possible that UHT containers in other countries are the same, and the Progurt could be made in those, as an alternative to the plastic insert.

The incubation is all about temperature for the Progurt. The Progurt should be incubated at a specific temperature. I don't know what that temperature is - you'd have to ask Robert. And again, if you start with chilled milk, you'll have to extend the incubation time.

Also, the USA Progurt Lady does intend to stock Progurt sachets as long as we ``Lyme people' want them, but nothing else at this point (no incubators, no prebiotic syrup, etc.). So, if you are interested in saving some postage on re-orders of product, you might consider ordering the sachets from her. (No, I'm not affiliated with her, don't know her, don't make any money from this, she's not a LymeNet member, etc. Just passing on information.) She got her e-mail link fixed so you can e-mail her or call. Here's a link to the order page:

http://www.betterway2health.com/onlinepg2.htm
 

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Posted by dan67 (Member # 20344) on :
 
Any more updates on how people are doing with this?
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
Amy (from betterway2health) told me to inform the group she has progurt satchets back in stock. Not the incubator, just the satchets.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dan67:
Any more updates on how people are doing with this?

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I feel I am still doing well with Progurt. My gut palsy is MUCH improved and I am gaining weight!

I am doing it along with other things, but feel they are all working together to boost my immune system and make me feel better.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
So happy to hear that ZM. I definitely believed this product was a remarkable one and that seems to be proving out. It is great to hear reports like yours. I continue to feel it is providing benefit as well.
 

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Posted by zombie_mummy (Member # 17402) on :
 
Thanks Scott. I think that Progurt + my very careful starch-free diet are helping a lot.

I have also recently introduced lactic-acid fermented veggies into my diet and feel they are a powerful and beneficial complement to Progurt.

I just thought I would mention it because people have talking about lactic acid in this thread.

My doc sent me for a colonic and the technician recommended I try fermented veggies. I figure she has good insight into bowel issues...
 

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Posted by mupersan (Member # 19683) on :
 
Hey guys!

Been reading all the posts in this thread now, but can't find anything about dosing/consuming.

How much Progurt do you consume?

Huge doses the 2 first months and then "maintenance"-consuming at 350ml daily ?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I stared with about .5 to 1 full liter a day. 1 liter the first 2 weeks. Now I am at about 1/4 - 1/3 liter a day.
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
I started with 1 liter too, after about 2 months have come down to .5 liter
 

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Posted by hiker53 (Member # 6046) on :
 
I do not understand why people are starting with such a high dose of progurt. When I talked to the company they guy recommended 1/2 cup per day. You are still getting a lot of bacteria with 1/2 cup. One liter of progurt according to their site is like 1,000 capsules of probiotics. Who would take 1,000 capsules of probiotics in one day?

I also don't understand why they say to avoid other yogurts or probiotics. Even if a probiotic is bovine, why wouldn't that be okay, too.

I did talk to the company, but the nice man spent most of his time talking about sea salt and evading my questions for some reason.

Glad it is working for you who are using it.

Hiker53
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
This starting dose was recommended by the founder of the company. Both initial dose and .5 liter dose checked with muscle testing.
 

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Posted by 'Kete-tracker (Member # 17189) on :
 
It's amazing how many posts the mention of this particular product has generated.. & it's always on Pg 1 or 2 of Med. Q?s. Wow.

Now... not to knock it at all but Please Try my sister's hi-school classmate's product: Stonyfield Yoghurt (from NH). Add it to your yoghurt diet mix. I alwys found it to be good stuff. Been buying the plain quarts since 1985.
Available at supermarket chains in most major cities. thankyou
 

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Posted by dan67 (Member # 20344) on :
 
I've tried calling the company numerous times and gotten either voicemail which they never return or a message saying the inbox is full. Am I dialing the wrong number or what?
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
dan--you are aware the company is based in australia right? So be sure you're calling during office hours aussie time
 

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Posted by hobokinite (Member # 6132) on :
 
Wish I found this thread a few days ago. I started the progurt at smaller levels than Scott and Joey thinking less is less good but not bad. After 3 days I had so much gas pain and reflux I thought I must be super allergic to milk.

After reading these posts, I relize that all that was from the war going on in my gut. The good guys fighting the disbiosis.

So, I will go back to making it with milk. I did Soy this batch even though they don't seem pro Soy over at Progurt. DId I read coorectly that someone was using hemp milk?

How did that go?
 

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Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
 
The hemp milk has gone well for my family member. If your gas pain & reflux doesn't subside, I am not positive you should be making it with regular milk. I do believe some people are truly allergic.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
You can be allergic to casein in the milk ... so even though the lactose may not be a problem in the Progurt, the casein might. If you have gluten issues, it's even more likely that you have casein issues too.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
So far, it seems few people are having a problem with Progurt - even with dairy.
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Oh, yeah, didn't mean to suggest there were.
 

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Posted by hobokinite (Member # 6132) on :
 
Hmmmm. What about coconut milk or young coconut water? That has fat and sugar.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Has anyone had any additional phlegm or mucus issues with Progurt made with milk?

(I'm assuming no since it hasn't been mentioned, but this is something I get from even small amounts of cottage cheese, yogurt, etc. - not just unfermented milk products.)

Also, are there any Progurt users who ARE NOT using the prebiotic that the Progurt people sell?

I did find some ultra-pasteurized goat's milk here locally. I don't know if I'd do that first, or try the cow's milk first. Well, at least I have options....
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I've learned some important points in making Progurt recently. There was some initial confusion about Horizon Organic milk being good enough for making Progurt and that is what I had been using. The batches, though still somewhat beneficial, were coming out watering and lumpy.

In working with Robert, we measured temperatures at various times during the incubation process, etc. and found no problems. Then I read the milk bottle and it was not UHT but just regular Horizon organic. NOT good enough.

Apparently, there are still bacteria in such a product that when incubated will compete with the Progurt bacteria and result in a less powerful batch...and less appealing texture/consistency wise as well. In this event when the batch is lumpy, Robert suggested I toss it as it was not properly made.

It's best to start with room temperature milk - UHT only.

So now, I use only:

http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Valley-33-8-Ounce-Aseptic-Cartons/dp/B001FA1LW0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=grocery&qid=1244764557&sr=8-2

Steps I am using now:

1) Wash the tub AND lid between each batch in the dishwasher.
2) Wash hands with soap.
3) Do not touch the inside of the lid or tub with your hands.
4) Put in 1/2 a tub of the UHT milk above from the 1 liter box it comes in.
5) Add the Progurt sachet.
6) Stir with a chopstick for 20 seconds
7) Add the remaining milk.
8) Cover with the lid
9) Incubate for 14 hours

That's the current steps I am using and I can definitely tell a difference.

If you do not use UHT milk, then you have to:

1) Boil the milk
2) Simmer for 15 minutes (need to find my notes on the number of minutes to validate)
3) Cool to room temperature
4) Make as per above

Hope that helps.
 

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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
Any reports from my progurt friends?
 

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Posted by hobokinite (Member # 6132) on :
 
I swicthed to trying Goat's Milk, Soy and even Hemp Milk. Isee no great changes. FOr the expense, it hasn't been a wash for me. A firend without Lyme is taking it. SHe had real bad candida and a totally white tongue. After a mointh of Progurt, noi more candida tongue and she can eat almost any food now. Has been great for her!
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I found a MAJOR increase in benefit of the product after going to UHT Milk. If you are not using UHT milk, it isn't the full power in my experience. As for Soy, Hemp, etc., I don't think they produce a full-benefit product either.
 

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Posted by hobokinite (Member # 6132) on :
 
I am gonna try with UHT milk again, making sure it is room temp, over 16 hours of fermentation, etc. Using the brand Scott recently suggested. The last time I tried it with milk I had extrme gut pain, thinking I may be alergic to milk (even though teh AI test said no). We shall see.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Some comments I received today via email from a lady I believe with Lyme that is using Progurt:

No more ringing in my ears, memory and thinking better, sleeping so much better, less pain in knees, more energy, no relapse in several months, sometimes 2 bowel movements a day, no more hip or back pain, hair loss ended . . . .
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
WOW.

Hobo, how much Progurt are you consuming a day?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
Zombie, are you still using Progurt? Would like to hear how you are doing with it. Thanks
 

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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
How is everyone doing?

I am having trouble finding the UHT milk!

Anyone know of resources for this near NJ?
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
LP, are you looking on the shelf in the canned milk department? It comes in a 'box'. I found it at only ONE store - a big discount store (Walmart). They have it at Amazon.com if you can't find it locally.

A close 2nd option would be 'ultra plasteurized' whole milk in the refrigerator section. It's so devoid of microbes that you can't even make cheese with it. I found that at one grocery store here.

(I'm not doing the Progurt, BTW - it seems I've got gall bladder malfunction so trying to get that working better first.)
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I order my milk for Progurt from Amazon.com. You can get Organic Valley UHT there.
 

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Posted by runner21 (Member # 1974) on :
 
Does anyone know the distributor that is here in the US? WHat is UHT?
 

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Posted by runner21 (Member # 1974) on :
 
Yes, Zombie, how does the progurt compare to your GI prohealth starter?
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
UHT milk is pasteurized at an 'ultra high temperature'. It needs no refrigeration (at least until opened.)

Here's the link to the order page for the USA Progurt supplier:

http://www.betterway2health.com/onlinepg2.htm
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
The USA progurt supplier does not have the incubator as I understand. I've been getting mine direct from Progurt.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Correct, Scott. She only carries the Progurt sachets (packets).
 

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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
Amazon's price is over 80.00 for 12 cartons, most is shipping cost!

Was looking t see if I could find it anywhere more locally.

I have been all over my area looking for it.

I have been using the Organic Valley WHole MIlk in the refrigerator section for th epast three months...just thought I wuld try to find the cartons of the UHT again, without paying the Amazon rate.
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I was able to order it with free shipping at the time. Some Whole Foods carry it.
 

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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
Thanks Scott, I"ll try them next.
 

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Posted by runner21 (Member # 1974) on :
 
Scott, AMy that distributes here in the US said i could make progurt with the sachets she sells using a yogourmet maker, what do you think of this idea?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I would not. The Progurt maker is very specific in terms of the temperature. If they are not exactly the same, you would be wasting your money in my opinion.
 

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Posted by runner21 (Member # 1974) on :
 
Alrighty then...thank you for feedback.
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
LP, you might ask the manager of a large local grocery store if they could order it for you. Or ask at Whole Foods if they don't have it on the shelf. I've done that in the past here with some items the store doesn't normally carry. They never charged me shipping.
 

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Posted by lymeparfait (Member # 14268) on :
 
Great idea!
Thanks,
lp
 

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Posted by daisyrlb (Member # 15686) on :
 
I'm in Lyme remission and my mind seems to be working better. I'm doing the math (hopefully it's accurate).

I read that 1 sachet of Progurt costs $20.

1 sachet of Progurt makes 1 litre, that is 4.2 cups.

1 litre is equal to 1,000 ml. The Progurt website adult recommendation is 150-300 ml per day.

Scott, to spend $600 in one month means you ate one litre of Progurt per day. Right? $600 is way expensive for us, especially since my husband (gwb--is still suffering terribly with Lyme). Obviously we would both take it.

Now that you've been on it a while-do you have any suggestions on a starting amount that would be effective but more cost affordable?
 

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Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
 
I started off with about 1/2 to 1 liter per day for the first week then down to 1/4 liter a day after that. It is not inexpensive, but some have had good results with it.
 

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Posted by lightparfait (Member # 22022) on :
 
Anyone still taking progurt?
 

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Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
 
Any updates?
 

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Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
 
Daisy, if you can't/don't want to do Progurt, you might try fermented foods for similar results. I've been making kefir, sauerkraut, and kombucha (but all can be purchased at the store, just be sure it's raw sauerkraut). It's really helped my gut tremendously.

I don't have the comparison to Progurt because it was too pricey for me, but the fermented foods have been good. I always was interested in the Progurt .... just didn't spend the $. Seems those who did like it.
 

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