I am posting this for a friend who was recently bit by what she thinks was a tick. She isn't sure.
I have photos of the rash as it's progressed and it is very weird looking. Drs don't know if it was a tick OR a spider.
What do you think?
I should note that my friend had RMSF 30 years ago. She now lives in NC.
Thanks.
Bite pics Posted by BackinStOlaf (Member # 23725) on :
I don't know but holy crap!!!
Posted by 2young2die (Member # 25434) on :
Get her to an ER quick!
Posted by onbam (Member # 23758) on :
I'd got to the ER ASAP--that's an unholy looking rash. That said...
If it was a tick and she now has that, it means that without a doubt she has Lyme, and everything depends on her getting proper treatment (doxy at 400 mg/day for 3 months past all symptoms resolve, possibly with an intracellular and a cyst buster).
While the jury's still out on Samento (a Swiss researcher named Martin Sievers said it made Lyme worse--I've posted on this), Sapi's one of the best we've got.
Good luck.
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
She has had the rash for a few weeks now and was on 2 different antibiotics, she just couldn't tell me which ones. She took one for 9 days and the other for 10 days.
She has seen 3 different drs and they all had the same reaction "OMG! What the heck is that?"
She isn't really having any acute symptoms but does have joint pain but had that before the bite.
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
No biopsy??? What is wrong with these doctors these days? Looks like ringworm, but tularemia also comes to mind.
She needs a real doctor...If she has Lyme also it can alter the usual rashes to look somewhat different than normal.
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
No! No biopsy that I know of.
I didn't know that ringworm could look like that!
She knows that something definitely bit her because she felt it and in her words "swatted it off" her arm. Now, if it was a tick, it would have been attached right?
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
No! No biopsy that I know of.
I didn't know that ringworm could look like that!
She knows that something definitely bit her because she felt it and in her words "swatted it off" her arm. Now, if it was a tick, it would have been attached right?
Posted by kitty9309 (Member # 19945) on :
That is really nasty. Has she tried antifungal creams or hydrocortisone/benadryl type cream?
She needs to see a dermatologist.
Posted by TnFlowerChild (Member # 24717) on :
Have they considered brown recluse or other spider bite? Holy crap....
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
No creams that I know of but she saw the dermatologist and she had NO CLUE!
Seems no one does Posted by TnFlowerChild (Member # 24717) on :
My fella had the classic bullseye rash and went to the dermatologist with it and she didn't have a clue either... she said "ringworm"???
They did a biopsy and the rash went systemic - all over his body! Please advise care in a biopsy...
Isn't there a show on "Venom" on Discovery or Animal Planet about a doctor in Arizona(??) that specializes in bites...
I'm going to go find a link.... maybe you can email them pictures...
Posted by TnFlowerChild (Member # 24717) on :
Just sent you a PM...
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
Tn I'd like to see that too...Thanks.
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
bn -
i saw an episode of "monsters inside me" and this looks like Leishmaniasis which is from a sand fly bite. here's a short clip from the show. there is an advertisement that plays first but when the clip starts, that first pic looks a lot like the pics you posted.
did she do any traveling? even if she didn't, it doesn't mean that it's not spreading like ticks and lyme. i read an article that says that it's becoming more common in US because of our troops coming back to US from areas that have sand flies.
Posted by IckyTicky (Member # 21466) on :
That does NOT look anything like ringworm. It makes me think more of a parasite or sandfly type of thing! Reprehensible that no biopsy has been done after seeing three different doctors!
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
icky, that's why i posted the link. the full episode was from a sandfly bite in TX!
if we're right, maybe something good came out of my lyme diagnosis - all that TV! Posted by steve1906 (Member # 16206) on :
Hey catdog, that looks just like her rash...Good job!
Posted by TnFlowerChild (Member # 24717) on :
bncrump... were you able to contact anyone?
Pinelady... I sent bn the name of the doc at Loma Linda Univ med center that was the doc on VenomER which was on Animal Planet. They had an email address...
That "monsters" sandfly video almost looks like her pictures...
catdog- yea for us sickies that watch a lot of tv!!!!
My fella's rash was the classic Lyme bullseye and the dermatologist thought it was ringworm...hahahahah... sooo sad for all of us out here!
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
i never thought i would actually remember and share the info i learned from watching TV. guess i have to stop getting on the kids cases for watching too much! LOL
bn, i'm not sure what type of doctor your friend would need to see. she hasn't had luck with a dermatologist in the past but maybe a different one?
whatever dr. she sees, she should definitely do some research and bring it with to her appointment. more than likely she will be told that it's not in the US or that it's very rare in the US. sound familiar? these little buggers go wherever they can and wanna go!
i hope that you and your friend finally get some answers. good luck to both of you and let us know what it ends up being! Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
Thanks everyone for the replies!
I shared this link with her so she can check out all the info. I have a feeling that she will be heading to another dr very soon. What type, I don't know.
I think the link for the Dr from VenonER would be her best right now. Maybe he can point her in the right direction!
Thanks again. We will keep you posted!
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
Update: I talked to my friend and she DID have a biopsy done. I just didn't know it.
They said that whatever it was, wasn't viral. Whatever that means!
Thanks again!
Posted by nenet (Member # 13174) on :
Um, I am 99% sure (I am not a doctor) that that IS Leishmaniasis - like someone else posted already.
If that's what she has, it is very serious - she needs diagnosis and treatment ASAP - this is a protozoan parasite, and if not treated can be disfiguring, or progress and become fatal.
Do a google images search - many of the photos look exactly like hers, in my opinion:
* Visceral leishmaniasis - the most serious form and potentially fatal if untreated.
* Cutaneous leishmaniasis - the most common form which causes a sore at the bite site, which heal in a few months to a year, leaving an unpleasant looking scar. This form can progress to any of the other three forms.
* Diffuse cutaneous leishmaniasis - this form produces widespread skin lesions which resemble leprosy and is particularly difficult to treat.
* Mucocutaneous leishmaniasis - commences with skin ulcers which spread causing tissue damage to (particularly) nose and mouth."
"The symptoms of leishmaniasis are skin sores which erupt weeks to months after the person affected is bitten by sand flies.
Other consequences, which can manifest anywhere from a few months to years after infection, include fever, damage to the spleen and liver, and anaemia.
In clinical medicine, leishmaniasis is considered one of the classic causes of a markedly enlarged (and therefore palpable) spleen; the organ, which is not normally felt during examination of the abdomen, may become larger even than the liver in severe cases."
Posted by arkiehinny (Member # 26546) on :
I believe what we're looking at here is a brown recluse spider bite. It's rotting her skin from the inside out. That's what recluse venom does. Gross. She needs to see a dermatologist!
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
if it is in fact leishmaniasis, nenet's right, it needs to be dealt with ASAP!
i read the links that nenet posted and it did not mention anything about a biopsy. leishmaniasis is diagnosed differently, so the biopsy she had wouldn't be helpful in diagnosing this.
make sure she insists on being tested for it though. we all know how passive and dismissive doctors can be so she should bring some ammunition with her.
i would suggest that she print this wikipedia page (it also has a pic on it which would be helpful) and bring it to the dr's appt/ER or wherever she decides to go.
i'm not a doctor either, i just watch a lot of TV! Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
arkiehinny, brown recluse bite crossed my mind too. when i looked up pictures though, i didn't see the similarity.
**warning everyone!! these pics are really graphic!!!**
UPDATE: I spoke to my friend this evening and she is going to go to the ER tomorrow at Duke.
Thank you so much for the information. She really appreciates it!
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
Not spider I have seen lots of them...Leishman. might be right. If it is suspect she needs treatment whether confirmed or not....
Posted by kimmie (Member # 25547) on :
I wonder if it was a brown recluse spider bite? Needs ABX
Posted by grandmother (Member # 19908) on :
Nenet, catdog,
Congratulations. That does lood like leishmaniasis and is a very good find.
bncrump
It's Sunday. Did she go to the ER and what happened?
All
We have found that bug borne illness spreads quickly and this looks very bad. The American public and the doctors don't even know this disease is in America.
Who's afraid of sand flies??? Absolutely no one. Protect yourselves, please.
[ 07-31-2010, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: grandmother ]
Posted by Beachinit (Member # 21040) on :
I vote for EM rash with fungal superinfection and would request treatment for fungus eg lotrimin as noted by BRB above and also, doxy as noted above and also testing for Lyme and all co's since the person may have already been immunosuppressed when they got the tick bite, that is they may have had Lyme/Bb before this bite occurred. I am fairly certain that has happened to many of us posting on this site.
Posted by Misfit (Member # 26270) on :
I have nothing to offer but second the "holy crap!" sentiments. That is frightening! I sure hope your friend finds the right dx and tx. Add sand flies to the list of buggy-boos that im now scared of!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Leishmaniasis - I'd bet on it, as a couple others mentioned. I bet that Catdog and Nenet win the detective prize for this one. And IckyTicky may have hit the nail on the head with the sand fly as the suspect.
I appreciated all the links and excerpts. Learned a lot.
Hydrocortisone cream (a steroid) will make any infection worse. Be sure your friend avoids that. Systemic steroids can also make matters much worse - unless life threatening and all the bases are covered regarding antimicrobial treatment.
Please keep us posted. I am just absolutely horrified that your friend has received totally inadequate medical care with this. It's criminal that some doctor did not put her in a comfortable room for monitoring while they called all over the world if they had to in order to figure this out.
If our hospitals would use IV garlic, that would cover a lot of bases - they would still be able to test tissue taken before tx from the rash (but this is far beyond being a rash, really).
And, with the web, they should be able to put the photos into a program and it come back with possibilities.
A National Geographic photographer who had contracted Leishmaniasis in S. America was featured in one of their programs. He was very, very ill - IV treatment saved his life but it took a while. -
[ 07-31-2010, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- He was infected from a SAND FLY bite (although there may well be other vectors): ------------------
JOEL SARTORE, photography - Frequently Asked Questions
Excerpt:
What's the sickest you've been?
Most times, wolves and anacondas aren't the biggest sources of concern while on assignment. In many parts of the world, photographers face malaria, yellow fever, typhoid and myriad other diseases.
While on assignment in Madidi*, I was bitten on the leg by a female phlebotomous sand fly who was carrying leishmaniasis, a microscopic flesh-eating parasite.
A month or so later when I was back at home, I noticed a hole on my leg that wasn't healing. After consulting with several doctors, we found out that it was leishmaniasis.
The only way to treat it at the time was chemotherapy -- an IV of an antimony solution. Like all chemo, it wears you down and can make you pretty sick. It also throws several of your internal organs out of whack. It was six months before I felt normal again, and I was lucky the doctors figured it out when they did.
. . . .
* [Madidi is a national park in the upper Amazon river basin in Bolivia.]
You can see a a mark for just south of Texas, across the border in Mexico. Well, my guess is that the sandflies don't see borders.
I think doctors rely too much on maps and expectations.
But I think that it can be anywhere, really, that is hot and humid for a certain period of time. They don't just like sand, but trees, too. Tracking maps are no longer all that accurate, thanks to global warming, travel, shipping, etc.
Still, don't be afraid, though. We have far too much fear in the world as it is. Nature is still to be enjoyed. Just be informed or know where to find information when you need it.
It might be good to know who the best TROPICAL DISEASES doctors are in your area, just in case. Some of those doctors are brilliant. That's who I would see if I had a rash that looked like this. -
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
Keebler, i can't take all the credit, have to give some to Animal Planet for putting on some good education shows!
Leishmaniasis is found in some parts of the following areas:
� Mexico, Central America, and South America--from northern Argentina to southern Texas (not in Uruguay, Chile, or Canada)
� Southern Europe (Leishmaniasis is not common in travelers to southern Europe)
� Asia (not Southeast Asia)
� Middle East
� Africa (particularly East and North Africa, with some cases elsewhere)
BUT, i don't put too much stock into geographical areas because of what we've already experienced with ticks.
that doesn't mean we should be afraid to go outdoors, we just need to make bug repellent a routine! like some people don't leave the house without make-up Posted by grandmother (Member # 19908) on :
up
Posted by Lymeorsomething (Member # 16359) on :
The Leishmaniasis episode was on yesterday afternoon. I have to say that it does look a lot like the rash above.
Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
Wow -- Holly S**** -
Any of that would Harsh My Buzz --Jay--
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
Sorry all...just wanted to say NO UPDATE yet. I will let you know as soon as I hear something!
Thanks for all the info!!!!
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
did she see a dr or is she waiting for results? thanks for keeping us updated!
Posted by grandmother (Member # 19908) on :
What's happening?
This could be an extremely serious situation and needs to be reported to CDC, regardless of what one thinks of the CDC.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- No Update? Did she not go to the E.R. at Duke days ago? I hope she's not just waiting around on this. I'm with grandmother, this could be very serious, indeed. -
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
I agree! I'm very interested to see if it is indeed making more than an occasional appearance in the US.
and more importantly that your friend is ok!
Posted by IckyTicky (Member # 21466) on :
*bump* Wondering if there is any new info.
Posted by TnFlowerChild (Member # 24717) on :
Any new info yet? Posted by 17hens (Member # 23747) on :
Two things...
1. I'm going to the beach soon (All about me, right? I know I'm a sad case.) and I'm not too excited now with all this SANDFLY info.
2. A lady my husband works with, got a giant ugly spider bite 4+ weeks ago and has been seriously ill ever since. She felt the bite, actually felt it bite her 3 times. Last week she was tested for lyme and came back CDC extremely positive.
Is there a file somewhere where we keep records of various bites, and the details about them, that have given lyme? Such a file could be helpful.
Posted by 17hens (Member # 23747) on :
Here's another example of how I think such a file would help...
My neighbor was just diagnosed with lyme&co last month. He's been sick for 5ish years but able to deal with it (like my family). But he got a bite this summer that sent him to his knees.
This bite was "not ordinary." He swears it was not a tick. He thinks most likely a mosquito. The "bite" was a small bump that blew up over night into a bump the size of a baseball on his upper arm and was centered in a large black ring (3-4 inches wide) that went around his upper arm.
I just think all these stories would help the "next guy" figure out what might be wrong with him when his duck is telling him he couldn't possibly have lyme because he was not bitten by a tick the size of a typed period.
I don't mean to take up this thread. Sorry. Maybe I should start a new thread and see what kind of stories we get.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- No new thread needed. You'll find past threads at the "SEARCH" link above. The Archives will usually find what you want. Most would just have the word "rash" or "photo" in the heading.
The LDA has an extensive file of bite photos for ticke-borne infections of all kinds.
A cross search at Google will also bring up other rash photos.
From the Lyme Disease Association's file: ------------------------
Treepatrol's Links for Newbies -
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
I wish I had an update...but as of right now, I don't.
She was supposed to head to the ER today but I don't know that she did.
I will be sure to update just as soon as I know something...promise!
17hens...I wish I could make you feel better about your trip to the beach. I would go and have a good time. You only live once AND you are far more educated than most people when it comes to what to look for in regards to bites, illnesses and chronic conditions. It will be okay. Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Thanks. I wondered. Too bad she has not found an expert yet. Also, too bad the other doctors she saw were so incompetent.
Is there a doctor around her who specializes in Tropical Medicine? She really needs someone who is specifically educated in the area of Leishmaniasis, etc.
I seriously doubt the E.R. will even want to assess a bite that is unusual for that geographic area. -
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
She has sent her bite photos to the VenonER dr, Dr Oz, the Doctors show and a few other people. Not that they are experts by any means (lol) but she hasn't heard from any of them.
I will update soon. Hopefully with good news.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I'd be at the front door of the dean to the closest medical college. I'd invite myself in to their living room and say I'd not leave until I got an answer.
I'd inquire of some wise lab person how to preserve some of the rash for a petri dish, get some samples set aside - and then start on a good quality of Colloidal Silver, topically and internally. -
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
she could be waiting around forever for a TV show to get back to her. i agree with keebler here, i'd be knocking down doors!!
17hens, now that sounds like a brown recluse spider bite. i posted this above when this discussion started, it sounds a lot like what you're describing.
**warning everyone!! these pics are really graphic!!!**
Keebler, thank you for those very interesting links. The sites talk "tick" but not other insects (mosquito) and they show pics but don't describe the feeling, etc.
The one doctor I saw who believed that I had lyme asked me some questions like did I feel anything at bite site and did the site itch?
When I answered no and no, he said, "correct answer" as you don't feel tick bites and they won't itch. In other words he believed that I probably had lyme because I fit the pattern.
Well, lucky for me those were my answers or he wouldn't have believed me like the other 8 ducks I saw.
I'm saying if we could collect information, like pictures of rash, what insect did we pull off or see (dog tick, spider, mosquito), did we feel the bite, did it itch or hurt or was numb, that sort of thing, then the next guy who gives his duck the "wrong answer" can look at our info and say, "well that person had a bite the looked or felt like mine and they have lyme so I shouldn't give up.
This has probably been done somewhere already, even on the sites you sent me, Keeb, and I missed it because I'm too tired (past bed time).
Please excuse these rantings of a person who needs a vacation (at the beach and I'm NOT gonna worry! thanks bncrump!)
Posted by 'Kete-tracker (Member # 17189) on :
She's gonna need to be on IV or IM "chemo" therapy for a few weeks:
Let's hope she gets her 1st shot no later than Monday, but preferably last week!
Posted by Consuelachacha (Member # 26538) on :
It simply astounds me that our DOCTORS cannot find out what this horrible rash ring is.
We with Lyme have to deal with Ducks everyday and usually do not have a VISIBLE rash like this.
Your friend has something to VISIBLY show them and they still cannot figure it out. Unbelievable!!!
Many, many, good posts for her above. Good luck to her.
Posted by lymeboy (Member # 24769) on :
jesus, did this rash subside? This looks like a nasty spider bite, possibly recluse or some other venemous B#$trd....hope everything's ok....
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
still thinking about your friend...did she ever get any answers?
Posted by psano2 (Member # 11711) on :
What did Duke say?
Posted by catdog (Member # 26365) on :
it's been almost a month since the last post here and i'm still wondering about your friend. did she finally get some answers? please let us know!
Posted by arkiehinny (Member # 26546) on :
I'd too like to know what came of this. It's dangerous looking. Maybe if we keep bumping the post we can find out. EEk.
Posted by Blackstone (Member # 9453) on :
Woah! I missed this post first time around and hope your friend got her answer... if she still hasn't, she needs to find a new doctor, stat! Preferably a dermatologist who has an interest in tropical diseases if you can find one, a tropical parasitologist who by some miracle works as a clinician, or even an tropical ID type.
Leishmaniasis is a good hypothesis - and if she has been out of the country or in contact with those who have (especially American soldiers coming back from the Middle East), it becomes an even better one. In the US, reports show it to be migrating up through Texas as well, likely come up from Mexico - similar desert climate probably allowing the sand flies to propagate.
It could be other things, but you really need someone in the know for "unusual" tropical diseases to appraise this. Leishmaniasis can be diagnosed by biopsy if someone is smart enough to do so. There are a variety of treatments, some of which are apparently inexpensive "orphan drugs", but technically experimental. In any case, start looking for physicians that handle tropical diseases and/or venoms immediately!
Posted by bncrump (Member # 20374) on :
HI!
I have not heard anything from my friend but as far as I know, she did NOT go to Duke and did NOT get an answer.
Thanks for reminding me of this...I will go call her now to see what I can find out.
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