There is a drug for cystic form that he commonly uses. In all his protocols he talks about using it (literally 75%+) he almost always says or adds if its in text ? Pluse xxx/xxx for 3-5 days.
My question is to understand why that one drug isn't sufficient. If he ever uses it alone. And if its stopped while the other drug possibilities are pulsed.
Also if those other possibilities (not many, once again, guess which form of abx i speak of) are intolerable for those with neuropathy, how does he proceed to handle cystic form.
My questions are honestly to understand drugs and thought process behind the pulsing and use of the original drug. It is a very specific question. If you have worked with Dr H or know a lot about people who have or how he works. Please PM me so you can potentially answer my question.
[ 05-15-2013, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: stiffyoungman ]
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
Nix that idea. It's all about your own particular circumstances.
For example, say my husband can tolerate every med known to man and I can't tolerate anything. We would never be on the same types of meds.
I know for a fact that Dr H doesn't practice protocol medicine. He adapts to your specific needs.
Are you talking about his lectures? Because he has never mentioned any rotations with my self or my husband.
Plus, his MSIDS model contains 15 differentials, so it would be hard to have any particular rotation in place. There would literally be 100's of combinations.
Posted by stiffyoungman (Member # 40067) on :
lax mom,
its not about that. im trying to understand the reasoning. he basically says he almost always uses one drug, then mentions pulsing another similar drug on the same protocol (this is common on many different protocols he's talked about) and im just confused on whether the original drug is stopped during this pulse, or taken at the same time. also why the original drug is not enough on its own. I know I'm not supposed to say much in public forum about drs protocols so im being unspecific on purpose but trust me, im trying to understand the concept and the effectiveness and why he chooses to do this. obviously each person would require different things but I'm trying to understand the thought process behind it.
Posted by Life+Lyme (Member # 33568) on :
Sending pm
Posted by stiffyoungman (Member # 40067) on :
edited first post. i seemed to have been too vauge in the orignal
Posted by stiffyoungman (Member # 40067) on :
edited first post. i seemed to have been too vauge in the orignal
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
Plaquenil I think
Posted by daphnesmom1 (Member # 39433) on :
stiffyoungwoman, my advice after seeing Dr. H for three years is to ask all these questions of him or his staff. I am sure they will do their best to explain it to you.
Every patient is different, and I also think in many ways it's trial and error with patients to see what they respond well to.
There are a boatloads of meds I can't.
I cannot take plaquenil. So we have had to use other combinations of things instead.
Posted by stiffyoungman (Member # 40067) on :
I've been trying to reach his staff for a while now, never can I get anybody on the phone. If you have any advice on how to reach them please let me know Daphnesmom1.
Why on all protocols does he seem to say to pulse Tinda/Flag while on Plaq?
Are those patients going off Plaq for the pulse days of Tinda/Flag?
Does this also indicate that Tinda/Flag are much better cyst busters than Plaq?
Does he only pulse Tinda/Flag if people aren't getting better solely on Plaq?
He really made it seem in the last confrence that the normal is Plaq + pulse of Tinda or Flagyl but doesn't mention if they stop Plaq or not. Also didn't give reasoning on why or when to Pulse or when to only use Plaq.
I'm not trying to get a cookie cutter protocol by any means, I'm trying to understand it so I have options. I believe many times if the patient is very aware, he can discuss his own ideas with the LLMD he is working with. That is my goal, to be as informed as possible on all methods out there so that I can make informed decisions.
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
I don't think he's stopping plaquenil as half the reason for taking it isn't it's ph or cyst busting properties but for it's anti inflammatory effects.
I'm not sure though. My dr trained with Dr. H and he doesn't stop plaq for anything.
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
I don't know where you are getting your info, but it's incorrect. He doesn't have specific protocols.
If you want to be his patient, you should leave a VM. I thought you already have a few LLMD's?
I was on Plaquenil because I had auto-immune tendencies.
Grapefruit Seed Extract can be used as a cyst buster.
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
Ya I watched his most recent lecture on MSIDS and don't remember anything on him mentioning a specific protocol.
Especially with Flagyl/Tinda. He does mention he uses plaquenil but he has a high success rate cause he takes patient by patient approach.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- It is true. There is no single protocol for all patients with any LLMD, really. Each patient with lyme (or a combination of tick-borne or chronic stealth infections) has a unique case and must be addressed individually.
That "path" may not be able to be determined in all detail from day one but usually needs to be determined along the way.
Even if "just lyme" (which is nearly never) there are many variables involved.
There may be some sort of "rules" or guidelines, of course, reasons WHY "never this" or "always that" might be done regarding Rx, supplements or life-style advice.
I suggest calling your doctor's office at a time that might be less busy, ask if the office manager has just a minute to talk - and ask if there is a particular article, a book, a link - or other way - that you might be able to better understand.
This way, it comes right from that doctor's office -- still would be a basic tutorial in the topic but might help then as a basis for the in-person discussion about this at your next appointment.
However, if this is about the pills you are to take today and until the next appointment and you are unsure of the instructions, THAT must be cleared up immediately.
You ask why combinations at some time, alone at others, pulsing at others?
It's strategy. It's understanding the science of the particular infections, in all their forms, behaviors, etc. -- and combinations of infections . . .
as well as how well the body can tolerate treatment. The liver or kidneys may be able to tolerate only so much of any one thing or combination for set amount of time -- but this can vary patient to patient.
There are many other variables, too, such as how a bad-boy microbe can develop resistence to a particular drug, usually when used alone for a certain frame of time.
Malaria (and Babesia as it's similar) is one infection that requires a combination approach for this reason.
It's much harder for the germ to "read" "decode" a combination of treatment than a single drug.
And, when certain herbs (not just any ones but very particular ones) are added, it can also become harder to "decode" therefore that's why an integrative approach can be of such help.
Still, over time, the germ can often figure things out so this is why pulsing, switching around of combinations, and other strategies are so very important.
Pulsing can also take advantage of the behavior of a certain germ. If there is a time when it's more active, that's the time to hit it hardest.
Of course, with good liver & kidney support supplements and self-care, always. Always. This helps the body to better tolerate treatment and aids in healing along the way. -
[ 05-15-2013, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I have a very, very hard time writing - other than posting from other authors' works with just quick notes.
If that above post makes ANY sense to anyone, it would be nice to know. Even as I re-read it, I'm not sure. Partly as I feel so ill most of the time and the world just spins but I would really like to know if that makes sense. If not, good to know, too, as I would hope to be able to improve my actual writing / thinking skills.
Others may also be able to explain better &/or post links to LL authors who have done so.
LINKS to articles & LECTURES would be great, too, as this question comes up a lot and I don't seem to have a good reference in my file notes. -
Posted by droid1226 (Member # 34930) on :
Makes sense to me.
Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :
Keebler -- very good explanation.
However, some patients do not do well with pulsing. Hubby just could not tolerate that approach -- almost always ended up in ER when we tried that. He did much better staying on meds continuously -- including flagyl. Just had to start with low doses and ramp up slowly.
Bea Seibert
Posted by RC1 (Member # 31923) on :
Plaquenil isn't a cyst buster. It alters the ph of the cells to the tetracyclines and macrolides work better.
I do Plaquenil and Tindamax at the same time. I think it is pulsed for a couple of reasons one because it's a pretty rugged abx and two because it has a cancer warning attached to it. And then there are the side effects.
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
I understood you Keebler.
For instance, my LLMD does not even know what my next course of action is going to be until I have my next appt.
Treatment ebbs and flows based on my body's reactions to what I'm currently on, not based on a fixed protocol.
Some newer LLMD's just don't have that many tools in their toolbox. For them, they may try every patient on the same thing.
When a Dr has hundreds of options, the combos are endless.
Posted by Sammi (Member # 110) on :
stiffyoungman, are you talking about Dr. H. in NY, CA, or somewhere else?
Posted by stiffyoungman (Member # 40067) on :
RC1, he definitively put Plaq in the cyst busting abx on his slide show. And even says it aloud from what I recall.
Keebler I appreciate your reply but I must be a worse writer than you because people here really are not understanding me.
I'm very very fully aware that there are no specific protocols used with people. Or a cookie cutter start then move on from there. How could I have watched his entire speech and not understood that?
What I didn't understand was if Plaq was indeed a cyst buster or not. Because if it was, why would he also pulse Tinda/Flagyl as those are known to not be well tolerated (IN GENERAL) and have the most severe yeast growths, etc. And if RC1 is right also Cancer warnings.
Then if the reasoning was that Plaq is not nearly as effective as a cyst buster as Tinda/Flagyl and thats why he pulses them, on the days they take Tinda/Flagyl are they also taking Plaq or not (obviously that might be person specific too but if one works better in vivro then he may attempt to see if it works better in his patients)
Just because everyone is different and its a patient by patient approach does not mean certain abx are not better than others for certain things. Sure, one that typically sucks could work way better than any other abx for some people. Or that 1 special person.
I'm simply trying to be come as educated as I possibly can. Cyst busters are to me the most important because theres so few options. There are MANY options that work on the other fronts so if one doesn't tolerate or get better you have many options.
If these are stupid questions I apologize, that is not my intent to flood the board with silly questions. Plaq is not a commonly talked about drug. I rarely see it discussed anywhere. Its not in the holy grail PDF from Dr. B that is passed around. Maybe I'll have to wait until his 600 page book comes out to understand it.
Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
If you want to be his patient, schedule an appt. We don't know his thoughts behind what he Rx's when and why.
Frankly, I am a bit protective because he is my and my husband's LLMD. We are not supposed to get into a Drs specific protocols on this board.
You stated that you have a few LLMD's and wanted to travel around to the top 3 while waiting on your blood work to stabilize. If you are able to do all of that, why are you even treating?
Posted by daphnesmom1 (Member # 39433) on :
I am confused by all of this. Posted by lax mom (Member # 38743) on :
Ok, stiffyoungman.
In an entire year, my husband only did 2 weeks of Tindamax. He couldn't tolerate it. It was supposed to be 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.
Now he is on Grapefruit seed extract.
He was on Plaquenil from the beginning. Now that he's well, he is no longer on that. Just some herbs.
I am sending you a PM.
Posted by daphnesmom1 (Member # 39433) on :
oh and sorry I called you "stiffyoungwoman"
Haha..
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Plaquenil is hydroxychloroquine. It is mentioned in the Burrascano Guidelines a number of times.
When searching the Guidelines for a medication, you have to use the generic name of the med. Otherwise, you may or may not find what Burrascano says about it.
To find the generic name, just type the brand name into a search engine.
Posted by Pocono Lyme (Member # 5939) on :
There was one study that I'm aware of done by Brorson about Plaquenil being a cyst buster.
I did Plaquenil for months and when I went on Tindamax, no effect one way or another. Pulsed it.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Plaquenil IS supposed to have some action on the cysts, as Pocono says.
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Did you see this current thread about plaquenil, talking about side effects?
They used to think Plaquenil was a cyst buster, probably because pair it with Zithro and holy herxing.
When I first started treatment almost 3 years ago I was told it was a cyst buster. A few of the top Docs now seem to think that it isn't. But who knows, maybe it is.
Really, there is so much we don't know.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- I'm not up to date on other uses for it, I've never used it or had it offered (as I've never had treatment with a LLMD). However, I've read some of Brorson articles about the cyst form and find very good detail there about the "science" and "behavior" of all that.
When I've seen references to the this Rx elsewhere, I always assumed Plaquenil was used to combat Babesia coinfection (as it's very similar to Malaria). Plaquenil (hydroxychloroquine) is used to treat or prevent malaria.
Some interesting thoughts, from just one perspective 5 years ago:
![[bonk]](graemlins/bonk.gif)