canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
I haven't been around here much lately. It is true that once you start regaining your health you slowly ween away from visiting these boards. : )
I'm in my 5th month on Buhner's protocol (still not at full dosage)
I'm at 90% health and have symptom-free days. I played a grueling hour of tennis the other day and recovered nicely with no symptoms of "over-doing it."
The most useful herb I take is Japanese Knotweed followed by Eleutherococcus.
My favorite supplement is either magnesium or B12
Buhner's core protocol also kicked any candida infection I may have had. I can now enjoy foods I was avoiding for the longest time.
I haven't been on abx's in 6 months and am doing great!
Buhner's protocol def works but it's at a slower pace. I think too many people give up on the herbs too early... assuming that they are relapsing. (I had the thought in the back of my mind during some herxes/flareups)
Anyways.... if you have any questions on Buhner's or herbs in general... feel free to email me @ [email protected]
Thanks for all yalls help over the last 12 months.
When I get to complete recovery(which I'm certain is ever so close) I'll be back to do my final report and thank the Keebler's of the lyme world : )
PS: I should note that I buy the herbs in BULK and either encapsulate them or tincture them. Taking the WHOLE PLANT is extremely important imo. And I find that capsules/powder work far better than tinctures (with exception to Eleutherococcus, Red Root, and Crypotlepis)
I've just started my daughter on the Buhner's protocol, slowly upping her drops each week.
I started her first on Eleuthero, and paradoxically, she got more fatigued versus less, so I was concerned. But, I then backed off from full dose to slowly ramping up.
She is now on full dose (for her weight) of Eleuthero and Cat's Claw, will be on full dose of Knotweed next week--hopefully--then will be adding in Cryptolepis for Babs.
So far she is doing well tolerating them. She did seem to be extra hyper, talking a mile a minute, and "wired" yesterday--something I've never seen in her before, so I think the herbs are touching something--yay!
She is still on her full protocol for abx, but she has plateaued over the last year, so I'm hoping to switch her to only herbs after the winter months are over.
Please keep me updated on your progress. This is so hopeful to read, and I hope I will have the same chance to update with a success story in the coming months.
(You can PM me if you want!)
Wishing you continued and complete recovery!
Congratulations!
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Send you a PM. Interested in knowing where you were when you started Buhner.
Posts: 339 | From Outer Space | Registered: Aug 2009
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Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
HI Canefan,
You may have posted this before. Would you mind telling us how long you treated with abx, how long you were sick etc..
This is exciting news. It must be great to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Cool man
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
Haley,
I treated with antibiotics for about 8 months. Never really attacking co-infections.
Just heavy dose of ceftin, doxy, flagyl
It's my opinion that I sent most lyme & co into hiding. And I never touched the co-infections.
Once I stopped abx and started Buhner's... Bartonella reared it's head (bart marks, anxiety, anger, irritable, GI symptoms, etc)
Slowly but surely knotweed knocked this down. And now I'm at the end of the bart symptoms. Very VERY few mild symptoms remain.
How long was I sick? Well... I think i've had Lyme for a long time... but I didn't hit rock bottom until about a yr and half ago.
But I think it's pretty irrelevant. Most of us here have CNS and brain involvement and thus are dealing with chronic Lyme.
To give you an idea of where I was (at rock bottom)... I thought I was dying, often thought of suicide, lost 20 lbs, started losing vision... it was rough)
But I don't even think about those days any longer. I'm actually starting to forget what it even felt like... WOOO HOOO
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
That is so awesome. Thanks for posting this. I told my husband last week that I can't wait for the day that I forget what this feels like.
Posts: 707 | From Colorado | Registered: Jul 2010
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And also interesting to me because my doc recently started me on A-Bab. It's kicking my butt. Hard. But reading your post gave me a little boost.
I'm really happy for you.
Posts: 322 | From Venice, CA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Jane2904
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15917
posted
Wonderful news Canfan!!
I am very interested to read of your progress. Our daughter is having a hard time tolerating most antibiotics.
I think this may be the way to go.
Best, Jane
Posts: 1357 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Jun 2008
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kidsgotlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 23691
posted
THANK YOU so much for posting.
I have been thinking about going this route along with my daughter's antibiotic therapy. I'm not ready to give up on antibiotics yet but I feel like the Buhner protocol could help her kick it sooner.
My only concern is that it would all be too much for her system to deal with.
Did you do antibiotics at all with this protocol??
-------------------- symptoms since 1993 that I can remember. 9/2018 diagnosed with Borellia, Babesia Duncani, and Bartonella Hensalae thru DNA Connections. Posts: 1470 | From Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- kidsgotlyme,
Generally, herbal supplements are easier on the body - and can also help support the body when stronger Rx are needed.
However, I don't think any one protocol is necessarily going to be quicker than another. It may, or it may not. There are just so many variables.
Some do abx with some of the complementary protocols. To compare the work of several LL authors, you might want to look at the links in the thread below.
And, it's best to have a LLMD or LL ND guide you with complementary methods. There is no one path that works for everyone. There is tremendous skill to figuring it all out.
Topic: How to find a LL ND (naturopathic doctor), acupuncturist, etc.
Includes how to find an ILADS-educated LL ND, an Acupuncturist, a doctor of Oriental Medicine (O.M.D.), or a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine (D.Ay.), certified herbalists or nutritionists, etc.
Includes many articles and books on complementary / integrative methods - & RIFE links.
[ 11-01-2010, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
kidsgot,
Buhner says they can be taken with abx's and in some cases he almost recommends doing so.
But no, I did not take the herbs with abx's. I too wonder if my system would have been able to handle it.
But the main REASON for switching to herbs was 1) I knew the abx's were damaging my gut 2) You can't realistically take the abx's forever 3) My entire system needed healing and the herbs address much more than the bacteria itself
The abx's actually suppress the immune system
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
canefan - So good to hear of your continued success, I am also working my way up on the Buhner herbs ( and still on abx also ) so far no problems.
Have just started my son also so we shall see how it goes.
Thanks again for your help getting me started !
Posts: 448 | From minnesota | Registered: Feb 2010
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
Thanks for posting.
Most of my symptoms are gone, to the point that I'm questioning if my issue is still Lyme.
My main problem left is that I oversleep, and I have a really hard time getting up in the morning, and a little sluggish during day (more like drowsy). Everything else is pretty much better. But I am pretty disabled from the oversleeping and drowsiness.
Canefan, did you experience any of those symptoms? (it's okay to say no, haha) Did they get better from your adrenal treatment, or from adding the Buhner herbals?
I haven't started your adrenal supplements yet (I have tried others, but didn't see much relief). I am planning on trying them eventually, I have just had other things going on, and wasn't ready to complicate things.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
Hoosier,
The quicker you support the adrenals the quicker you give yourself a chance at complete recovery.
When you say you aren't sure if your issues are still Lyme...
A lot of adrenal fatigue symptoms mimick lyme symptoms. So you may be correct in that you're not only dealing with Lyme issues.
Lyme and Adrenal exhaustion, imo, are NOT mutually exclusive.
If you want the simple adrenal builder.. Start the eleutherococcus (herb pharm brand) take Vit C, magnesium, Pantothenic Acid
But make sure to take eluetherococcus (the 2:1 formula by herb pharm)
Take for 2-3 months then take a 2 week break (I usually take cordyceps during that 2 week break)
You could simply do THAT and give your adrenal a good chance to recover.
The tinctures are very cheap online
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
buhner ppl-would it be possible to keep this thread going or start a new one for us to talk on?
i really need buhner support...i am at a year and have a lot to share...it sure was the best thing i had done for awhile...but now some wierd things are happening
every 4 months i go off for a short time to see what sz come back
i've tried to figure out how to go to the buhner site but i really can't do it
so-i have been taking a tea of red root, sarsa, stephania and knotweed for a year. i can't take catsclaw cuz i take meds for reflux
i started very slowly and gradually built up strenght of tea and amount i take ...i am at fullstrenght but less than 3-4 four ounces a day now
at first i clearly herxed for 3 days and then leveled off...mostly specific pain i remembered from earlier
also fatigue
at one point i got tons of lumps in thoracic area-esp under arms---some so hard i couldn't sleep---felt like many golf balls
3 times rifampin took them away and 3 times they came back worse when i stopped it
i have always tested neg for bart
the herbs took the lumps away. after 4 months they came back in a few days. after 8 months they came back in a week.
after 12 months i was off the herbs for almost a month because i was moving. i felt fatigue...but no lumps came back for 3 weeks. at about 3 1/2 weeks i think i started to feel two small lumps coming back. it motivated me to get organized and get back on tea.
but i am now having some other wierd sx -patches of nevre pain in soft tissue-that i never had before so i am getting really concerned that the herbs might be doing the same thing as the abx (putting bugs into cyst form where they reproduce so when you stop the herbs more of them come back than before. god i hope not)
anyway---i would really like a place to go to talk to buhner literate and experenced ppl...could this be it?
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
oh-one other thing. when i stop the herbs and then start again...it always seems like worms or parasites come out. at first i blamed what i saw on undigested food...but it has really become a pattern...i do think its worms. often flatworms.
anyone else?
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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kidsgotlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 23691
posted
I agree with you lpkayak. I would love to have a thread going for the buhner protocol.
-------------------- symptoms since 1993 that I can remember. 9/2018 diagnosed with Borellia, Babesia Duncani, and Bartonella Hensalae thru DNA Connections. Posts: 1470 | From Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
I am so NOT a bandwagon person, but if canefan, hoosiers, and ipkayak have improved on this stuff..I'm very, very interested.
I just started some, as I said above...I'd like to see the thread continue. And also hear people's stories about the process they went through.
Posts: 322 | From Venice, CA | Registered: Sep 2008
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littlebit27
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24477
posted
I started a few of the herbs but then backed off. The one (and I'm having a lyme moment now) that can cause a rash did. Totally broke out after first pill.
Tried sasparilla, as he recommends for pain, it works awesome for pain but hated my stomach, so I had to stop that.
I take cat's claw 3 times a day now while I'm on biaxin/bactrim/flagyl. It helps with inflammation and also immune support. i have the other herbs he suggests here so I may start trying to add those in. We shall see I guess
Glad to hear you are doing so well. I wasn't here in your beginning, but I remember you posting quite a bit when I first joined.
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Canefan what is your source for the whole herbs? The source naturals resveratrol is easy to expensive at 16 per day! Are you doing Buhner Core or Bart or what?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Also ...one thing I've never understood about the Buhner protocol....what is the killing agent/s? Is it the knotweed? The eleuthero and others don't seem to be killing agents...am I right?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Canefan,
Great to hear that you're doing so well. Are you still taking any antiparasitic herbs? You mentioned you liked Hanna Kroegers wormwood combo. Does Buhner suggest doing any maintenance herbs?
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- CD57,
I just inserted this into a post above but will also add it here. For details, it's best to consult the source: -------------------
lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
it only costs a couple hundred a year if you buy herbs in bulk and make tea...i think it works better too. i tried some pills and tintures and really do better on the tea
doesn't he tell you where to buy them in the book? i get most from 1st chinese
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
www.planetthrive.com is a great source of information on Buhner's protocol. Click on the ADVICE COLUMN and you can read for days
And yes Knotweed is anti-spirochetal
Gael, Yes... I took hanah's anti-parasitic for 2 months. I'm taking a month or 2 break right now (taking cloves on and off)
I'm very glad I treated with Hannah's herbs as well.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Remember to Smile
Unregistered
posted
Great to hear from you, Canefan17! Way to reach 90% health and even play tennis!
quote:Originally posted by canefan17: My favorite supplement is either magnesium or B12
Buhner's core protocol also kicked any candida infection I may have had. I can now enjoy foods I was avoiding for the longest time.
Curious how much magnesium you take, at what time of day, and w/ or without food.
Which herbs have you found most useful in the Candida control battle?
I echo your thoughts on the benefits of whole plant herbals and the recognition that herbal treatments don't often show results as swiftly as chemical pharmaceuticals.
Thx much for sharing again on LymeNet. Smile
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I think it is the Knotweed, as my daughter has had a clear reaction to it--I've had to back off today and lower the dose (which is one aspect of the herbs I've really appreciated--i.e., being able to dose in accordance to one's own reactions.)
She's done fine with slowly ramping up to full dose of Eleuthero and Cat's Claw, but based on what I've seen over the past week with the introduction of Knotweed, I think it is going to take her longer to get to full dose on that.
It is clearly touching something.
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Wow Congratulations really happy to hear that you feel better!!!!
How did you educate yourself what herbs to take any the amounts and when? Are you being guided by a LLMD?
Thanks.
-------------------- When the going gets tough. . . I'll keep fighting! Ms. Geet3721
New LLMD, New abx, New life coming right up!!!! Posts: 714 | From La La Lyme Land | Registered: Jun 2008
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
Michael_Venice,
Just to clarify, I am improving, but I think it has been a combo of antibiotics with herbals, and also the help of Low Dose Naltrexone for better immune function.
I did Bicillin for a year, and now am back on orals, but am tapering off the oral antibiotics.
I have been using some of the Nutramedix herbals for the past year (Enula), and others for the past 3-4 months (Samento, Banderol, Cumanda).
I recently have been moving away from Nutramedix, and towards the Buhner herbals. I am now thinking that when I am completely off antibiotics, I'll keep supporting this "Lyme battle" with Buhner.
So far, I have been more impressed with the Buhner herbals than the Nutramedix herbals, if I had to compare. Though I preferred Enula to cryptolepsis for my particular babesia.
I have used andrographis (which, to answer CD57's question, is the anti-spirochetal in the protocol) and Resveratrol off and on for the past few months, but now I have added Cat's Claw and am about to add Eleuthero. So far, I have been impressed with the power of these herbals.
I am still not doing that great, but I just think it's time to get away from treating Lyme/co's, for me. The Buhner herbals will cover my butt for the Lyme, but also help a lot of potential issues, in my estimation (viruses, immune, etc).
So that is kinda "where I'm at" right now. I think the Bicillin as important for me. I think the herbals I did have also provided that layer of killing that you can't get from lab-made substances. (as Buhner says, it is much harder for bacteria to become resistant to herbals because they are more complex).
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
Remembertosmile,
I take MagTabs (Dr B recommends) once in morning and once at night (with food)... not sure it matters though imo.
Eliminating my candida was a 2part deal
1) Abx's had to be stopped (candida infection simply can't be eliminated if on abx's. It can be contained and kept at bay... but you will have a candida issue for as long as you are on abx's - and this isn't a knock on abx's)
2) The core Buhner protocol was VERY strong against candida (knotweed has anti-fungal properties and cats claw has immune booster porperties - so does Eleuther)
I took Oil of Oregano off and on as well. but I know the core protocol was the bigger player.
Geet3721,
No LLMD for me. I had one while on abx's... but after extensively studying Lyme and Co's (mostly from the help of this website) I began to realize I could do it on my own.
There was a point I started to understand how Lyme effected the entire body... more-so than my LLMD. He was a great Doc and meant well... but his area of expertise was anti-biotics. Deep down I wanted to go alternative medicine.
It's been hard doing it alone. No doubt. But my family has been great! My father read Buhner's "Healing Lyme"... and gave me his input.
Half of healing takes place just by talking about the disease. I felt GREAT after sitting down with my father and coming up with a plan of action.
Healing is a powerful thing and it goes way beyond medicines (herbal or chemical) & Doctors.
I should note I followed most of Dr B's guidelines in my journey.
Exercise, oral hygiene, supplements. And once I started feeling better laughter became a daily routine. I always find time to watch funny shows or read funny blurbs. It sounds corny... but laughter is a big player in healing from Lyme.
And I'm not one of those "Think Positive" advocates.
I just know the best times in my life have always revolved around friends & family and a whole lotta laughs.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
no no no. laughter IS important. and so is feeling good and being happy. at a recent conference an llmd said research showed ppl with lyme did better in tx if they were in a good relationship.
i've been doing the herbs for a year-i can't take cats claw cuz i have reflux and take meds for it
i thought cats claw was the most important to get rid of Bb
even tho i have been on these herbs (per my llmd) for a year and i have read the book many times i don't rememer him talking about eleuther o// i take it anyway for something else-but i don't know what strentght he reccomensds so i will go back and check
i am scared of andrographis---isn't that the one that chronic lyme ppl shouldn' t take? i may be wrong
there is a BUHNER THREAD on here where we are trying to only talk about experiences with buhner herbs . please come join us!!!
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Q: " am scared of andrographis---isn't that the one that chronic lyme ppl shouldn't take?"
Astragalus is the one that is not intended for chronic lyme (unless part of an overall formula as with Hepapro's Circ. P, etc.)
cat's claw has some good properties but I would never count on that to be the heavy hitter of the bunch. It works well with others. Cat's claw, to me, is a strong nerve support but it can work in subtle ways for other matters.
Posts here simply cannot do any one of the herbs justice. The book, the site, PubMed, etc. are all necessary to even begin to grasp the character of any herb. Each one has a very intricate nature. And it gets more complex as formulas are created.
I would say that it would take at least several hours reading (from experts) about each herb for the picture to start to take shape. The herbalists, NDs, researchers, etc. study each herb for months and years before they write a chapter. It's really best to read directly what they say and then compare experience notes from here to go along with that.
Or - I may start from some good experiences here and study how that might then work for me, too. I am sparked by others' success. We all are. But no one seems to have a linear path to success where lyme is concerned.
Andrographis is not for everyone. For me, it has saved my life and helped curtail seizures. It helps relieve pain and improve sleep, amazingly so. Yet, it is not an easy one to take and I still have a long way to go.
I cannot imagine my life without andrographis right now. I had stopped over the summer and my mouth sores returned, big time. It took about six weeks, but they are nearly gone again.
For another poster here, andrographis was thought to lower the seizure threshold for her. But, nothing is so simple. There are variables to consider for each person.
So, when we read about herbs, we also have to know our own bodies. And, it's ideal to work with a LL ND or other similar professional who has studied in this field for years, or decades. Herbal medicine is a very complex field.
I don't take any pharmaceutical Rx, so I often forget that most other people do. That further complicates this so it really is best to work with a LLND or LL L.Ac, etc. as they would know all about Rx, too, and interactions.
For anyone who is scared about any one herb, it's absolutely wise to find an expert who is not just educated and certified in herbal medicine but in human physiology and other medical matters. Here's where to start:
Topic: How to find a LL ND (naturopathic doctor), acupuncturist, etc.
Includes how to find an ILADS-educated LL ND, an Acupuncturist, a doctor of Oriental Medicine (O.M.D.), or a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine (D.Ay.), certified herbalists or nutritionists, etc.
posted
Thanks for sharing your success thus far. This is news I need to read right now when I am struggling so much. I hope the 100% is right around the corner for you! Good luck! Please keep us posted; it's really appreciated and encouraging to read a post like yours! TS
Posts: 566 | From West Coast | Registered: May 2008
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
keebler i agree with everything you say. his book is like my bible right now. but it is so full of info-everytime i read it i see something new...i would have gone back to check the andrographis thing except my priorities are changed right now since i haven't been able to walk since yesterday noon without huge amts of pain meds...i am working o geting to doc and PT and had to put a hold on new stuff fro buhner
the book and the site are by far the best place to get ifo...but i think ther is a place for the thread on BUHNER HERBS for ppl to read when they are overwhelmed by the book or dealing with something that is hard to find in the book. sometimes if you ask a question here you can get a faster answer...even if it is the page number of what you are dealing with
i agree all on buhner herbs should have the book for sure. unfortuneatly i have run into many docs and nds who do not understand the protocol. so it is really good the bok is availble nd th site is there...i hope i will learn to use it soon
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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