Topic: Dr B's Exercise guidelines make little sense.
richedie
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posted
Otherwise, he needs to be specific and not so vague in terms of percent of max, etc.
He states to workout on a full body routine every other day. Even if I did light to moderate weights for 12-15 reps every other day hitting every body part....I would modt likely over train.
A light to moderate weight for me in the dumbell bench press would be about 50-70 lb DBs for 12-15 reps. Even with that weight, I could still experience soreness a few days after. With that said, on the Dr. B program I should do another full body workout, working the same muscle when they are not fully recovered.
I say it makes no sense and would love to call him on this.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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It works just take whey proteins D-riboze before and after exercise and for me jakuzi and sauna after exercise help me to be prepered for every second day exercise.Take B-complex everyday it helps.First 2-4 trainings you will have some sore muscles and after that you will fill the best when you are at the jim exercising. Exercising is the only think that make me fill 100% for the time I'm doing it no pain no any wired symtom zero just fill good.
Posts: 482 | From Nebraska | Registered: Feb 2010
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bcb1200
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I'm in my 3rd week. I feel better.
I do low weights, and high reps (20 usually)
Muscles hurt the first two times, but are better now. Getting in shape as well!
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
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Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3134 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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Keebler
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- He says that sometimes, 3-4 (maybe more) days of rest between sessions are needed.
Every recommendation is not for every person. I've never been able to lift weights due to wrist and elbow problems. I can't even grasp anything in my hands. So, I do what works for me, keeping in mind the key points he makes and his reasons, especially for non-aerobics (which is also echoed by other doctors writing for those with infections).
All treatment needs to have an individualized approach. The "guidelines" are just that, a guide. We try so hard to do everything right but, often, we have to just see what works for us.
If your body is too taxed by lifting weights, you may want to look to other methods: Tai Chi, Qi Gong, Yoga, Pilates - individualized to your needs. These can be done daily. It's easy to rotate styles or routines. It's really better to vary routines, anyway. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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richedie
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I disagree! I have been bodybuilding for 23 years religiously. I also take wheye protein and the supplements you suggest. 2 days is NOT enough recovery time. Even if not siore, there can be microscopic damage which takes time to heal. I am telling you it makes no sense so I am doing a 3-4 day split where I do different muscle groups on each day.
My doc who trained under Dr. B and still meets with him...says the no aerobics thing is BS. You can do aerobics if you feel up to it. I do.
My body is not too taxed after lifting weights. It is normal muscle soreness.
quote:Originally posted by Maradona: It works just take whey proteins D-riboze before and after exercise and for me jakuzi and sauna after exercise help me to be prepered for every second day exercise.Take B-complex everyday it helps.First 2-4 trainings you will have some sore muscles and after that you will fill the best when you are at the jim exercising. Exercising is the only think that make me fill 100% for the time I'm doing it no pain no any wired symtom zero just fill good.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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TerryK
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I agree with Keebler. One size does not fit all.
The degree of illness on this site alone covers a wide range. Hopefully our treating doctors will be able to guage the correct level for our condition.
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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kidsgotlyme
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I know what the guidelines say, but my daughter feels so much better when she does her dance class three times per week.
I almost made her quit due to Dr. B's guidelines, but I'm not going to stop her from doing something that makes her feel better.
She also does Pilates one day a week.
-------------------- symptoms since 1993 that I can remember. 9/2018 diagnosed with Borellia, Babesia Duncani, and Bartonella Hensalae thru DNA Connections. Posts: 1470 | From Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2009
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He is talking about simple strength training for an average Lymie. I would interpret this to be one basic movement per body part, maybe six to eight movements total, with a small number of sets. Low overall volume. In this manner, it is not hard to train the whole body three times a week and recover sufficiently to make gains.
If you want to train harder, then your volume, and intensity, as a percentage of your one-rep max, must be adjusted downward when the frequency goes up. Simply put, if you want to train more often, your volume your and intensity will have to drop. If you have been training 23 years you probably know this.
You might be interested Bryan Haycock's hypertrophy-specific training. It is based on whole body workouts, three a week, and has built-in parameters for progression. It is not a perfect system by any means, but it is very good -- and it's especially good for patients who want to progress without overworking. It is along the lines of Dr. B's suggestions, but more in line with what a serious trainer might want. A blend.
Keebler
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posted
- nomormuscles makes an excellent point that I overlooked: He is not talking about bodybuilding.
Also to consider for those who have endurance challenges - or tissue challenges - lyme can cause a lot of damage to mitochodria. More about MITOCHONDRIA SUPPORT here: --------------
Topic: To everyone with CARDIAC symptoms please read ! -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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seekhelp
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posted
I can't read threads like this. Upsets me too much. I used to love working out. I just can't fathom how people can and for hours/big reps when ill with TBIs. My body breaks down so quickly.
It's sounding like Dr B's guidelines are falling little by little on this board. All the other LLMDs seem to know a little better now!
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Pilates is considered moderate strength training and incorporates flexibility. Pilates can be done every day. It also works the whole body each time.
I think this is more like the exercise Dr. B is talking about. Certainly not one that has you hurting for 3 or 4 days afterward.
Seek, you might try pilates or yoga, they're easier on your body.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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kidsgotlyme
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Yes Seek, my daughter loves Pilates!
-------------------- symptoms since 1993 that I can remember. 9/2018 diagnosed with Borellia, Babesia Duncani, and Bartonella Hensalae thru DNA Connections. Posts: 1470 | From Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2009
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richedie
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quote:Originally posted by TerryK: I agree with Keebler. One size does not fit all.
The degree of illness on this site alone covers a wide range. Hopefully our treating doctors will be able to guage the correct level for our condition.
Dr. B should say that in the guidelines.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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richedie
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quote:Originally posted by sixgoofykids: Pilates is considered moderate strength training and incorporates flexibility. Pilates can be done every day. It also works the whole body each time.
I think this is more like the exercise Dr. B is talking about. Certainly not one that has you hurting for 3 or 4 days afterward.
Seek, you might try pilates or yoga, they're easier on your body.
Then why doesn't doctor B say that? You made my point. He is not clear and leaves his guidelines open for huge interpritation.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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steve1906
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Even without being sick, lyme co�s etc, we all know everyone has different levels of intensity for working out.
I�ve been working out at gyms all my life, it�s taken me a couple of years to get back into the way it use to be before Lyme. I�m not at the same level working out as I use to be, but I�m still trying to get there.
I still have some really �bad� days at the gym! When I do, I just adjust to the level of fitness that can work for that workout.
Dr. B is just trying help, it�s up to us to try different methods of getting healthier.
We need to use common sense when it comes to anything we do, as we all do agree on one thing�Everyone is different!
Steve
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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richedie
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nomoremuscles,
So, who is the average Lymie? Where does that leave me?
I disagree with your assessment of the making gains on Bs guidelines but I am not going to argue.
Yes, you are right..I do know all of this. Problem I have, training is a part of my life. maintaining a certain amount of muscle is important to me. without it, I feel lost, a sense of depersonalization, depressed, etc. Only way I seem to maintain size is to lift heavy with low reps, power lifting style. I have tried many protocols through the years, high volume, H.I.T., you name it.
Point is....for me to do a circuit training program on machines three days a week, I feel like I am lifting paper weights and not doing anything, plus I am not a fan of machines to begin with.
I am not a huge fan of Bryan Haycock's hypertrophy-specific training, but it is pretty good. Does he have a book??? I tend to take the Clarence Bass approach. I have to do it and test it myself...if it does not work for me, I move on. He an myself have both found that less frequent workouts and heavier weights work best for us....for me. After years of training this way, it is hard to wrap my head around the idea of doing a higher volume, full body workout three days a week.
However, if someone told me that following a full body program 3-4 days a week with light to moderate weights would get me better....I'd be all over it. I am in a heavy cycle right now...then after Thanksgiving I might back down and try a full body circuit style workout with lighter weights to see how I feel.
I would love to know Dr. Bs thoughts on serious training/bodybuilding for Lyme patients who are physically capable.
Thanks again! Do you have a link to Bryan Hancock's book????
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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lymeboy
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I just finished 40 minutes of weights. Simple stuff. Lats and Dumbell curls. A few years back, I was VERY active. I rode my Bicycle every day. I was even considering going w/out a car, since I have a motorcycle. I lifted weights, played hockey, and basically used the heck out of everything I had. My dream is still to move to Cali and surf every morning. After I had my initial attack of symptoms, I was unable to muster any good energy. I have been pretty inactive for 1.5 years now, only having started lifting again about 6 weeks ago. I can say without a doubt that it DOES make a difference. My first time back at the weights, I overdid it. I had started IM protocol 1 week prior, and I did 2 sessions in a week, 1.5 hrs each, hitting everythiing: crunches, dumbells, bench (I am embarrassed to say how low the weights I am using are!) - anyway I herxed like mad after that. It was the worst I had felt since my symptoms started. That spooked me, so I stopped everything. I herxed again about a month later even worse, landing in the hospital.
Spoke w/ My LLMD about exercise, and he said YES!!! EXERCISE AS MUCH AS YOUR BODY CAN HANDLE IT! - he was pretty disappointed that I hadnt been exercising. I asked about aerobics and cardio, since I wanted to get back on my bicycle. His words were very simple and made more sense than anything I have gathered on the subject so far - "You know your body, you know what it can handle, start slow and build" He also said that cardio is ok. I was also confused by Dr. B's guidelines concerning exercise, and the no cardio rule didnt make sense to me. In any case he said to exercise and don't rule out the cardio. The best personal example I can give is my recent trip to L.A. was spent walking all over L.A. County. Into the Hollywood canyons, miles and miles of beach walking, mountain hikes... That week in L.A. was the best I have felt in years. I felt amazing and young and energetic and happy. (of course I herxed like a rabid squirrel a week later, but who knows if that is why) - The point is that I believe that all of that activity was helping me, not hurting me. I think what Keebler said is, as usual, the most sensible approach. Everyone is different and sick to a certain degree. I think if your heart or lungs are an area that have been damaged by Lyme then cardio could be too stressful until the body has healed some. Rich, I agree that Dr. B's guidelines are not always 100% clear. The cardio bit is a good example, along with the diet. I do think that He isn't referring to bodybuilding, though. A lot of his patients have probably had to start with those little 2 LB dumbells, just to build up the strength to get around again. That's probably where he is coming from, but that is just my guess. Personally, I just finished my IM regimen, so My butt can now handle the bicycle, and I can't wait to get on it. I would really like to hear from some people out there who feel that exercise has ushered them into recovery....Anyone?
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I actually think he is pretty clear. He comes just short of telling you what specific exercise to use.
You mentioned that even if you did 12-15 reps you still might overtrain. I think it's the "to failure" method that is different than what Dr. B is talking about.
If you did one exercise of each body part with say 10 reps at the moderate rate quitting before failure, that would be more similar to what we do in pilates and what would be considered moderate.
I know it's tough to let go of the "to failure" mentality because I work with people from a weightlifting background and I came from there myself, but it does work. You might not hit your bulk goals, but you certainly can stay firm and in good shape.
The reason for hitting the whole body each workout is so that you warm up each muscle group. The heat kills the bugs. It also moves the toxins.
Dr. B can't give a specific exercise plan in his guidelines because what's moderate to you would not be the same as what was moderate to me when I was bedridden, or what is moderate for me now.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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seekhelp
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also, it's not like Dr. B had any type of physiology background either, right? He seems brilliant, but no one can wear all hats. At times, I think people here give this Dr. unbelievable faith. No doctor can be everything. There's only one 'House' and he's on TV!
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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METALLlC BLUE
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I hardly think Dr. B was recommending anything other than classical physical therapy followed by a gradual progression to normal function over the course of the patients treatment.
He is not instructing patients who are at the gym pressing hundreds of pounds. He's instructing the bedridden and those who were disabled and need help returning to normal daily activity.
If you're at the gym pressing hundreds of pounds and you can function, then you're advanced in your function and should adhere to exercises that don't inflame your illness. You push as far as you can without doing damage or making the illness flare, that's the whole point to his message.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
Keebler
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posted
- Dr. B's guidelines have to be read with a wide range of patients in mind.
For those who find it too tame, who are leaving it in the dust. If you want your own personal rehab formula, ask your LLMD or ask your LLMD to refer you to a sports expert who is also very lyme literate. Hire your own tutor, coach, or trainer, etc. Congratulations, you've passed basic lyme rehab 101.
Dr. B's guidelines are not going to be the gold ticket for everyone here. And, for most, it just part of our tool kit. It can't specify everything to cover every single patient. I don't understand the anger at the fact that it can't be an individualized formula.
seekhelp You said: "it's not like Dr. B had any type of physiology background either, right?" end quote.
First, I think "Dr. House" is an idiot, an egomaniac and abusive toward patients and his staff. I'd never want him treating me. But that is just a fictional character. No hospital works that way but he has honed well the arrogance and abuse that has seeped into our medical culture.
The TV show plays on our emotions, how we'd all like a doctor/ hospital to find the answer in 50 minutes of one-on-one patient time.
To come back to reality and clarify regarding someone quite opposite - Dr. B has a medical degree. That includes a lot of study in physiology. He's gone on to develop, in essence, a sub-speciality after years of research and work with patients. He knows far more about lyme and how it affects a person than 99 % of the doctors on the planet.
He is a large part of ILADS and making all those conferences happen. That could not happen without having an extensive understanding of the complex physiology changes facing lyme patients.
If you want to be ****ed off at Dr. B for telling you to proceed with caution, he may not the real target of that anger. Lyme, & our bodies tend to make us angry with all the restrictions.
Dr. B has never said we should read only his writings. Never. But if we don't consider the work of someone with so much experience, it can be to our detriment.
For those who insist we should all push as hard and as fast as we can, there are reasons that Dr. B and others caution with aerobics in the presence of infection. It can destroy the heart. And, a damaged liver can make exercise even more toxic. That is discussed in the thread below.
My guess is that Dr. B knows all this but did not go into how he knows, he just cautions. But he also really also encourages movement that can work.
Be sure read Bruno's link in the thread below about Coxsackie B and the heart. Many lyme patients have other stealth infections and that must be considered but if one infection can damage the heart during aerobics, you can bet it's not the only one.
At this point, the hard-core athletes may say they are doing fine going for the gusto. If someone can consistently do more, great. Really. Go. Do. Enjoy. REALLY.
But for those who can't push and try beyond reason - it's important to know that damage can happen. And it can be permanent.
It's important to be educated in all that before signing up for the marathon this weekend. Mitochondrial issues, adrenal issue, cardiac support . . . NMH, POTS . . . many of the things that cloud the aerobic issue are discussed by many other doctors here, many others.
This is not just about cautions to consider but also how to improve, what can HELP get us stronger, with a wise and measured approach.
And, you know what. We may never be able to do all the physical things exactly as we did before, to the same degree of time and intensity. Or we may, after months or years.
However, we might find other ways to enjoy moving that are enjoyable and empowering. Our grandparents and their parents never saw the inside of Gold's Gym. They lived active lives and were strong in ways that our society has lost. We might find ways to reconnect with a more natural way of body movement, through living.
Please take the time to look over the collection of work by many doctors here. Then build upon that, in health. ----------------
quote:Originally posted by METALLlC BLUE: I hardly think Dr. B was recommending anything other than classical physical therapy followed by a gradual progression to normal function over the course of the patients treatment.
He is not instructing patients who are at the gym pressing hundreds of pounds. He's instructing the bedridden and those who were disabled and need help returning to normal daily activity.
If you're at the gym pressing hundreds of pounds and you can function, then you're advanced in your function and should adhere to exercises that don't inflame your illness. You push as far as you can without doing damage or making the illness flare, that's the whole point to his message.
Well-said Metallic. I was reading this thinking what-the-heck.
How can anyone who has been bedridden possibly even fathom exercising the way some here describe. We have to walk before we can run.
For a person who has been bedridden for any length of time, something as simple as going up or down a flight of stairs or being able to stand up long enough to take a shower is significant progress.
-------------------- You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.'
---Eleanor Roosevelt Posts: 748 | From somewhere | Registered: May 2010
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lymeboy
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Sorry. That is kind of what I thought I was saying, though I guess it came across differently.
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Haley
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Based on my experience, I believe a big part of the reason that exercise works is the oxygen you take in.
Test it out yourself. When you do your exercises take in as much oxygen for as long as you can. You will feel the difference instantly.
I'm sure that building muscle and getting stronger also help us to get well. I've just noticed the more oxygen I take in the better I feel.
Swimming combined with deep breathing makes me feel like a new person sometimes.
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steve1906
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Just do what works for U...You're the only one that pains the pain!!!
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lymeboy the thing that jumped out at me with your post is that your Lyme doc was disappointed that you hadn't exercised.
This is a tough hurdle for everyone and I don't like to hear that a patient was chastised for not meeting some general expectation of how much and in what way he or she should exercise.
I too am very confused about cardio vs. non-cardio. I think everyone should do what he or she is able to do when he or she can and as long as it is gradual and tolerable.
Good for you that you were able to enjoy LA and felt so good walking around. It sure is a beautiful part of the country.
I personally think that once you have reached a point where you have fought the infections for a time and have worked to build your immune system up that exercise (in small doses like walking a few blocks) can help you recover. But attempting to exercise when you are at your worst (bedbound, profoundly ill) is not a good idea at all.
-------------------- You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.'
---Eleanor Roosevelt Posts: 748 | From somewhere | Registered: May 2010
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lymeboy
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I wouldn't say I was chastised.... rather he was encouraging me to start exercising, and based upon my physical state, encouraged the cardio as well. I doubt he would have told me the same thing if I was unable to get out of bed, or just being persistently zapped by symptoms. Though my neuro symptoms are quite severe at times, physically I am doing ok for the most part. Nowhere in any of what I said did I mean that a bedridden person should get up and run, I just thought that the notion of knowing your body and exerting yourself accordingly was refreshingly simple and actually right in line with what you and some others here have said. As miserable as this disease has made me, I think I am lucky compared to many others here who are persistently physically and mentally down. Apologies to any who felt slighted by what I was saying (or trying to say).
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Well good to hear that you weren't chastised by the doc but encouraged to exercise. Sorry to hear that the neuro symptoms are severe, but it is a good thing that physically you are doing pretty well. That is very, very good.
Nothing you said indicated that someone bedridden should get up and run. And I don't think anyone would interpret it that way. You didn't slight anyone by what you said.
Yes, I agree....knowing your body and exerting yourself accordingly is the right thing to do.
And kudos for feeling lucky compared to others. I feel lucky for learning all I have so far, and being able to advocate for my kids.
Good luck to you and I hope you can get back to beautiful S. Ca. soon.
-------------------- You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.'
---Eleanor Roosevelt Posts: 748 | From somewhere | Registered: May 2010
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Being a person who has been fairly compulsive towards strenuous aerobic exercise, I am interested in this. It seems Burrascano is drawing a pretty clear distinction between aerobic and anaerobic exercise, and is advising restriction of the former to those who are sick. I remain interested in his rational and wish he, or someone who understands his thinking, could elaborate. I know Keebler has explained some of the likely rational eloquently. But unless she (?) recieved info directly from Buttascano, it seems there is a lack of Dr B elaborating or creating a forum for elaboration, and this seems unfortunate with the amount of import given his protocol.
If I were to to take an amateur guess I would say it has something to do with aerobic activity's relation to releasing Lyme and its related toxins, and moving them about the body
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
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Also to respond to Ricedie's original point about reworking exhausted muscles before they have had time to recover. I would assume the criteria for muscle building and riding yourself of the effects of lyme might not be consistent. I am not saying there is sufficient justification to assume Burrascano is correct, but I would not assume it to be incorrect by virtue of it flying in the face of classic body-building techniqe
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
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i dont really see what all the debate is about. its about what YOU can do and what works for YOU period.
i lift 4-5 days a week, low reps heavy weight. right now i can do that, a year ago i couldnt even work out, just to sick. 90% of the time i feel better after working out, sometimes i think im to tired or just not feeling it but i push myself because i know that its gonna help in the long run (my belief anyway).
imo if you can workout to failure and wake up the next day and not have it effect you to the point where you say"why did i workout so hard", then dont, its really that simple.
the first time i worked out after a year off from being sick, i was messed up for a couple of days, but when it passed i was right back at it, now im at the point where i can workout 4 days in a row without it effecting me.
dont get me wrong i still have bad days but i believe its got nothing to do with the way i work out, pushing myself has helped me tremendously with this disease, im convinced of that.
sorry for the long winded response.
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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Rumigirl
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This is a tempest in a tea pot! I think people have gone over this pretty well.
But to add to it from "the horse's mouth" (Dr. B., that is), he has said many, many times: "You won't get well, if you don't exercise!" I've heard him repeat this enumerable times.
However, he's, of course, not exhorting bedridden patients! The whole point of his exercise guidelines is to recondition patients who are deconditioned from this illness.
And he has said to focus just on strength training for 6 months to get strong, so that then you can go on to aerobics. (I'm filling in the blanks here, but that was the gist).
And, no, he's not talking about body builders! If you can do body building, that is not what the guidelines are for; you guys already know what to do (and if you can do it, great!)!
Lastly, heating up the body during and after exercise is one important factor in his emphasizing exercise. The increased body temperature can weaken the spiro's.
Exercise helps our body to be healthy and fight diseases in so many ways. But many can only start with baby steps when they are ready. That's what he was talking about.
Give the guy credit! If it weren't for his pioneering work, we all wouldn't be on this board, and many wouldn't have the degree of health that people do have.
He's stuck his neck out for us in so many ways for so long. It's a miracle he was able to beat the medical board twice when they tried to take his license away for speaking to Congress about Lyme and for treating it. He's a true hero and an extremely knowledeable one at that. (End of soap box).
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METALLlC BLUE
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quote:Originally posted by lymeboy: Sorry. That is kind of what I thought I was saying, though I guess it came across differently.
It was. You were clear.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
quote:Originally posted by mattnapa: If I were to to take an amateur guess I would say it has something to do with aerobic activity's relation to releasing Lyme and its related toxins, and moving them about the body
It's my understanding that it's the draining effect aerobics can have on the adrenal glands. The adrenals are typically already stressed from the Lyme. His guidelines say you can do aerobics when you have the stamina.
I had the stamina for weights about a year before I could do any type of cardio.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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METALLlC BLUE
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For those who are unclear about why Dr. Burrascano recommends people avoid aerobics during their recovery process, he says so right in his guidelines:
Quote:
"In addition, there is now evidence that a carefully structured exercise program may benefit T-cell function: this function will depress for 12 to 24+ hours after exercise, but then rebound. This T-cell depression is more pronounced after aerobics which is why aerobics are not allowed.
However, because T-cell functions do fall for at least one day after aggressive exercises, be sure to never exercise two days in a row. Finally, an in intermittent exercise program, properly executed, may help to reset the HPA axis more towards normal.
The exercise timing and pattern he recommends is based on available science. It's the immune system he's worried about, not your lungs, or even heart per se. Though he dose make it clear that people with heart conditions should be evaluated.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
richedie
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posted
Lymeboy? EXERCISE AS MUCH AS YOUR BODY CAN HANDLE IT??? He might have said to avoid exercising every day though.
For me that would mean going all out, heavy bodybuilding and power lifting. Funny thing is, even with Lyme...I can handle just about anything. I went snowboarding last winter, no sweat, running, easy, lifting, easy. So does that mean I should go for it?
One point on cardio. If I walk a long distance or am very physically active, cardio and some lifting...I have much less pain and sometimes the foot symptoms will vanish. Dr. B's ideas on cardio have more to do with T cell suppression than anything else.
So if I went into Dr. B's office and told him I could go to the gym....and as part of my workout....do a few warm up sets on the flat bench with dumbells and have some initial shoulder and elbow soreness...then do two sets with 100 lb dumbells with no pain, with the exception of some clicking in my left lbow.....and still feel great and strong...would he say YES or NOOOOO!
Well, I avoid going to failure (most of the time), sometimes it happens accidentally...but I try to be conscious of this and stay within limits so I do not hit failure. When one of my dreams is to compete in a natural bodybuilding competition....it is tough to settle for something less in the gym. I hate this disease.
SixGoofyKids, how do you know that is the treason for doing a full body workout? Have you spoken to Dr. B or has your doctor about this issue?
Just for the heck of it...the next cycle after Thanksgiving I might try a much lighter program, with higher reps and hitting the whole body Monday, Tuesday and Friday....with maybe some walking on the weekend or running one day. I will try to make it more like an activity than bodybulding....see how that goes for the winter.
Metallic Blue, you say B is recommending classic physical therapy followed by progression to normal function. Where I differ is that I never had issue with normal function during this whole ilness. All through this, I kept lifting, kept snowboarding, kept working, etc. People didn't know I was sick...other than I took it more easy in the gym at times or took some time off because I didn't know what was happening. So, should I toss out that part of the guidelines since they might not apply to me? I guess I have to read my body better and see how it is impacted after exerice. I don't recall feeling better or worse days after exercise no matter the protocol. I have taken long periods off, and still had lots of pain. For the heck of it, I might swallow my pride for a while and do lighter, "stay in shape" exercises. In reallity though, I have found with most people the best way to stay in shape IS to lift with great intensity and to try and build muscle.
erikjh1972, do you think the heavy lifting, hence bodybuilding has hindered you at all? I want to say that I do give Dr. B credit...I was just looking for some clarification on exercise. I am going to have a conversation with my LLMD in two weeks about this. I have been in treatment almost 3 years and no major improvement....and i exercise, eat right, take my meds......but what do I have to show for it.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Can't remember if it was Dr. B's talk, something I read, or something my LLMD told me. Whether it was Dr. B or my own LLMD, I remember clearly having it explained that the body heats up during exercise.
If your exercise is only making you feel better, then I would guess Dr. B would say go for it. I have heard Dr. B say in a talk (and I do remember this was Dr. B, so the other probably was, too), that he has seen people go into remission by exercise alone. I have actually done that three times myself.
BTW, foot symptoms can be sluggish lymph (you can Google and see that this is so), so exercise may be keeping your lymph flowing, thus eliminating foot symptoms.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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METALLlC BLUE
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posted
quote: Metallic Blue, you say B is recommending classic physical therapy followed by progression to normal function. Where I differ is that I never had issue with normal function during this whole ilness. All through this, I kept lifting, kept snowboarding, kept working, etc. People didn't know I was sick...other than I took it more easy in the gym at times or took some time off because I didn't know what was happening. So, should I toss out that part of the guidelines since they might not apply to me? I guess I have to read my body better and see how it is impacted after exerice. I don't recall feeling better or worse days after exercise no matter the protocol. I have taken long periods off, and still had lots of pain. For the heck of it, I might swallow my pride for a while and do lighter, "stay in shape" exercises. In reallity though, I have found with most people the best way to stay in shape IS to lift with great intensity and to try and build muscle.
I don't think the guidelines apply to you as long as your training isn't worsening your condition. However, if you still feel crippled by your disease in various ways, you may need to consider the effects your training as it is presently affects your immune function.
If a better routine exists that will restore your health, seek it out, if you already feel your routine is optimal for your specific needs, then stick with it.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
posted
richedie, no i dont think bodybuilding has hindered me. in fact i think it has helped me, the year i couldnt lift i was going crazy. so i think it helped my psyche as well. if you can handle it i say go for it, what have you got to lose. your body will let you now what you can handle. erik
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
Guidelines - that is all they are..no more no less.
Everyone is different and comes into lyme with varing degrees of fitness so not one size fits all is gonna work when it comes to exercise.
I am an endurance athlete and when able, ran and biked throughout my treatment. Did not go near my lactic acid threshold and stayed in a safe aerobic zone. I found this helped my tx and recovery in more ways then one.
Some people who have never ran a mile in their lives or lifted a weight could never imagine doing it sick with lyme, but an athlete mentality is a bit different and we do know our bodies and their cues better then any doctor out there.
If you push too hard you will know...trial and error...
Posts: 376 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jun 2009
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lymeboy
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posted
"He might have said to avoid exercising every day though."
Yes....sorry he did say every other day.
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richedie
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But erikh1972, you are pushing as hard as me. You notice no ill effects? I need to see if my arm feels better with a less strenuous workout.
I just need to get better.....if not...I will resume heavy, heavy lifting
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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i worked up to the point i am now i just didnt go balls to the wall getting back into it. it took awile to get where i am.(like 1 on 2 or 3 off) but no i dont have ill effects from pushing myself in the gym, and like i said i can workout 4 days in a row without doing harm.
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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richedie
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Working out four days in a row is not good for anyone if doing weights. The CNS needs rest after two concecutive days of lifting. That is basic exercise physiology.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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richedie
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quote:Originally posted by nomoremuscles: He is not talking about bodybuilding.
He is talking about simple strength training for an average Lymie. I would interpret this to be one basic movement per body part, maybe six to eight movements total, with a small number of sets. Low overall volume. In this manner, it is not hard to train the whole body three times a week and recover sufficiently to make gains.
If you want to train harder, then your volume, and intensity, as a percentage of your one-rep max, must be adjusted downward when the frequency goes up. Simply put, if you want to train more often, your volume your and intensity will have to drop. If you have been training 23 years you probably know this.
You might be interested Bryan Haycock's hypertrophy-specific training. It is based on whole body workouts, three a week, and has built-in parameters for progression. It is not a perfect system by any means, but it is very good -- and it's especially good for patients who want to progress without overworking. It is along the lines of Dr. B's suggestions, but more in line with what a serious trainer might want. A blend.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Here's a tip for all you fitness freaks. Take your temperature before and after you exercise. If your temperature is lower after exercising, you are pushing too hard and exhausting your adrenal glands.
-------------------- HERX is a Four Letter Word! Posts: 716 | From If you're going through hell, keep going......Winston Churchill | Registered: Apr 2007
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steve1906
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Bigstan, so I have question for you> Was I working out to hard in my sleep for over three years?
My temperature was always around 95-96. I think it's been in the norm for about a month or so now...
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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METALLlC BLUE
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Steve, Stan is talking about healthy people. People with low body temperatures like those you've experienced have a dysregulation in the HPA. Basically inflammation in the brain and other problems cause abnormal heart beat, body temp, breathing, and other basic homeostasis regulating mechanisms. Abnormal adrenal function contributes to the low body temperature which is extremely common in Chronic Lyme Disease.
Antibiotic therapy usually leads to normalization of these functions eventually for most patients, but it can take quite awhile (years in some cases).
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
quote:Originally posted by richedie: Working out four days in a row is not good for anyone if doing weights. The CNS needs rest after two concecutive days of lifting. That is basic exercise physiology.
wow, thats a new one on me. i've been lifting for 17 years been to a lot a different gym's, worked out with alot of different people, trainers, competing bodybuilders, never once have a heard that more than 2 days of lifting weights is bad for you. do you have any articles on the subject you could post or any studies on this subject?
im curious because this makes absolutly no rational sense to me.
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
With traditional weight lifting, you need to give the muscles two days to recover because every time you lift you actually damage the muscles and they need to recover .... that's how muscle is built.
With more moderate strength training, it's not necessary to rest for 48 hours. I teach pilates, and you can work out two days in a row even though those muscles were just worked out the day before.
Many people who do traditional weight lifting break it up by body part. I used to work out upper body one day, lower the next, then a day off, then upper body, etc. I used to work out four days per week with that system.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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richedie
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quote:Originally posted by sixgoofykids: With traditional weight lifting, you need to give the muscles two days to recover because every time you lift you actually damage the muscles and they need to recover .... that's how muscle is built.
With more moderate strength training, it's not necessary to rest for 48 hours. I teach pilates, and you can work out two days in a row even though those muscles were just worked out the day before.
Many people who do traditional weight lifting break it up by body part. I used to work out upper body one day, lower the next, then a day off, then upper body, etc. I used to work out four days per week with that system.
Two days to recover is not nearly enough unles you are doing more volume training and just going for size, water retention, etc. If you want more functional muscle, longer lasting muscle, I would rest a good 6-7 days between workouts of the same body parts.
Example, if I do deadlifts and stiff legged deads on Monday, I might need to wait till the following Monday to do a full back workout, or sometimes I can get it in by Friday.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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There certainly are different opinions out there. I guess it all depends on your goals and other variables.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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richedie
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Well now I am on a two day a week power lifting program so I am sure this would not be approved by Dr. B.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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I used to love working out. I just can't fathom how people can and for hours/big reps when ill with TBIs. My body breaks down so quickly. 
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