Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Hey Guys-
I realize many of us have been tested for some of the inflammatory cytokines, usually CRP (C Reactive Protein). I was wondering if anyone has had their Tumor Necrosis Factor (TNF) tested through a blooddraw?
Since higher doses of Vitamin D have been dramactically helping my pain, I wonder if Vitamin D is helping to quell TNF (this inflammation) in lyme patients.
Furthermore, I wonder if lyme patients could benefit specifically from anti-TNF drug therapy?
Below is a a study which explains this in healthy subjects.....(it explains who higher doses of Vitamin D have helped quell TNF activity in patients who are suffering from certain illnesses)....
Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Hey Guys-
I really think understanding TNF may be critically important for the treatment of the symptoms of lyme disease.
I've been researching further and found numerous studies where TNF was elevated in magnesium-deficient states....We've all discussed how we think lyme/abx might inferfere with magnesium stores...
Additionally, alot of patients who have RA have elevated TNF and take drugs like Enbrel..etc...Some of these patients JUST LIKE LYME PATIENTS have gotten relief from taking tumeric/curcumin because it quells TNF......
I think it's pretty interesting that many lyme patients feel better when supplementing with magnesium and tumeric (and some with higher doses of Vitamin D)....
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I am wondering if anyone really understands the various elements of the immune system and how all the cytokines and chemokines work. The people who are taking anti-TNF drugs for autoimmune diseases are having some latent infections reactivate because their immune system is suppressed. But does vit d work the same way? And what do you consider higher doses?
My CRP and TNF measurements came back normal, but there are papers that say central nervous system inflammation stays elevated long after it has declined in the peripheral system. So, if cytokines are measured in the blood, is this an accurate reflection of what is going on in the brain?
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Yes, I really wish extensive studies could be conducted regarding which inflammatory cytokines are active in lyme PRIOR to antibiotic treatment and which remain elevated AFTER antibiotic treatment....
Prior to treating lyme, I would be afraid to take something like Enbrel or another anti-TNF drug because I wouldn't want to suppress my immune system in any way....
However, after treating for years with abx, IVs, HBOT, many of us still have remaining symptoms....So, what part of the inflammatory system is still at work post-treatment??? Like you said, Lou, can TNF (post lyme treatment) be detected via standard serum tests?
Also, do certain genetic markers in some lyme patients account for why some may have raised TNF post-treatment but others do not (eg those with autoimmune illnesses that run in their families)????? Lots of questions that I wish I had answers to.....
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
The study below regarding lyme and TNF seems to indicate those patients that had an elevated level of TNF in their cerebrospinal fluid early in their disease, had a better recovery from the disease.....
This makes me wonder if some of those with chronic lyme actually don't mount a sufficient TNF response until later and, by then, the TNF remains elevated because the disease is more widespread in the body....
Lou, again, this seems to indicate they looked at TNF in the cerebrospinal fluid....not in blood serum....
posted
Hum, I guess the TNF elevation is mandatory, the immune system has such a battle to lead that the whole battlefield is on fire... I do think it stays elevated after treatment for maybe quite sometime, maybe that's the "autoimmune" turning point. However, I speculate that this TNF stays elevated because of the mental and physical stress the disease puts on the body... I tink the pituitary gland plays a major role in that regulation as low dose naltrexone wich "forces" that gland to produce more endorphins helps reduce inflammation...
Posts: 723 | From Montreal | Registered: Oct 2010
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Bugg
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8095
posted
Wow, great points, Shahbah and Lou....thanks so much for helping me analyze this...
For what it's worth, as usual, I can really only find studies which discuss TNF being HIGHLY ELEVATED with active lyme infection....Interestingly, the study below points out that you see similar elevations of TNF in those with syphilis and those with arthritis...
Dawn in VA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9693
posted
Bugg, I *think* you are one of the folks on Logvida, right? I've been taking it for several months now myself. Haven't noticed anything directly, but I still think it's good for overall anti-inflammatory protection.
I have been trying to no avail to get my TNF-alpha levels tested for some time. I don't know if it's an issue with coding or with cost or whatever, but 2 LLMDs plus my regular GP won't order the test. Dunno why. I agree with you in that I think it plays a major role.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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