posted
I am on my second round of abx. First one was 20 days of doxy and second is 20 amox. I am doing this through my GP until I can find a LLMD. Anyways, is it normal to feel awful on abx? With the first round I felt like crap immediately. Now in my second round I have a lowgrade fever and terrible joint and muscle pain. These arent even my regular lymes symptoms (TMJ, facial and neck pain).
I read how everyone feels better on abx and then feels worse off them. I am having the opposite experience.
Posts: 854 | From Somewhere | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes , If you read through most of these posts , there is a term called herxing.
It means when the ABX are killing the bugs (die off) your suppose to feel worse before you get better.
So in a way this is a GOOD THING.
STAY IN TREATMENT.
Posts: 85 | From Long Branch NJ | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged |
TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
Yes, if it is an antibiotic that can actually kill lyme for you, you will feel sick from the die-off. Here is a quote from the Burrascano guidelines regarding it:
"Several days after the onset of appropriate antibiotic therapy, symptoms often flare due to lysis of the spirochetes with release of increased amount of antigenic material and possibly bacterial toxins. This is referred to as a Jarisch Herxheimer-like reaction. Because it takes 48 to 72 hours of therapy to initiate bacterial killing, the Herxheimer reaction is therefore delayed. This is unlike syphilis, in which these reactions can occur within hours." (page 17)
I suggest you read and STUDY the Burrascano lyme treatment guidelines to get your education on this very complex disease. It is very important that you understand as much about this disease and its treatment as possible.
Then, you will know when you have found a good lyme doctor who can get rid of this disease for you. And, then you can better work with the doctor because you will understand the importance of diet, supplements, exercise, and obeying the doctor's instructions in achieving health.
You really need to get to a lyme doc ASAP.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It helps to understand the "Herx" process and what we can do about it. ----------------------
------------- "Herx 101" (my attempt at making sense of it) -------------
Lyme is caused by the gram-negative bacteria, BORRELIA b. - that is what is known as a SPIROCHETE, a cork-screw shaped bacteria that can sort of spring where ever it wants, not needed the blood stream for transport.
Spirochetes are particularly rough bacteria and they can take many forms to evade detection and resist treatment.
When spirochetes get irritated they emit toxins. To begin with, Borrelia b. is a very toxic infection. But irritate it and it spews forth even more toxic junk into our bodies.
So, our bodies are loaded with toxins and our liver and kidneys are overwhelmed. One reason why LIVER SUPPORT is vital to treatment.
To spirochetes, irritation to them can be nearly anything. It can be strong medicine, too much activity, too much heat, too much noise or light, etc.
That is why lyme patients feel so awful so much of the time. Even a little vibration will irritate spirochetes. Too much heat, too much movement.
Still the herxheimer reaction - from "chemical assault" (even if from a strong herb) - is very real. ---------------
The Herxheimer reaction (also known as Jarisch-Herxheimer or Herx) occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as bacteria (typically Spirochetal bacteria) die, due to antibiotic treatment or rapid detoxification.
Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins via the natural detoxification process performed by the kidneys and liver.
It is manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgia (muscle pain), and exacerbation of skin lesions.
Duration in syphilis is normally only a few hours but �� can be much longer, up to months or years, for other diseases, especially Lyme Disease. ��
The intensity of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present.
The Herxheimer reaction has shown an increase in inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including tumor necrosis factor alpha, interleukin-6 and interleukin-8.[1][2]
The reaction is also seen in other diseases, such as borreliosis (Lyme disease[3][4] and tick-borne relapsing fever[5]), bartonellosis, brucellosis, typhoid fever, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, and trichinellosis, Q fever, and cat scratch disease.[6][7]
Especially note herxheimer abtracts with Leptospirosis, another spirochetal infection.
=======================
A "herx" can also be connected to liver stress, in general. But it may not always be, technically, a herx.
Often, we call just feeling horribly icky a herx. Lyme - and lyme treatment - can be a rough ride. Not all of that is a herx and sometimes the term is overused but, in the end, liver support often helps make treatment easier and safer.
If the liver is overwhelmed, and then asked to outperform - handling too many chemicals or faced with too much exercise - it can't process out the toxins and there is a backwash, so to speak. Technically, that may not be called a herx (or it may be) but it's a toxic reaction, all the same.
More specifically, a "herx" can also be connected to porphyria, just one kind of liver stress resulting in a toxic level of elevated porphyrins. There are at least eleven kinds. More about how at least one kind is seen frequently with lyme patients:
Advanced Topics in Lyme Disease (Diagnostic Hints and Treatment Guidelines for Lyme and Other Tick Borne Illnesses
Dr. Burrascano's Treatment Guidelines (2008) - 37 pages
------------ As important as any supplements, sections regarding self-care:
Go to page 27 for SUPPORTIVE THERAPY & the CERTAIN ABSOLUTE RULES
and also pages 31-32 for advice on a safe, non-aerobic exercise plan and physical rehabilitation. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
tdtid
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10276
posted
I know that when I was first starting treatment a little over 4 years ago, it was a very very hard concept for me to understand why we had to get worse before we get better.
As said earlier, it is called Herxing and you will hear that term on these boards quite a bit.
Even trying to explain to family and friends that we are feeling worse during treatment never made it sound very believable, but it's definitely the way you know the meds are working.
I was able to put it in to perspective when I had a symptom reverse and appear to go away after having it go crazy during the treatment. I use to get blood pressure spikes and yet it totally went away and from there, I was able to accept that yes, having these bad symptoms usually meant something was getting better.
I know it's hard to feel so rotten, just to get better since we are raised to believe that if you have an ear infection, you take antibiotics and the ear infection just gets better. So why isn't that how it worked with Lyme.
Keep reading and stick around. You will learn so very much by others experiences and I hope you can start to notice improvement soon.
Cathy
-------------------- "To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha Posts: 2638 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
When i did ABX i felt so toxic like never before. I had the instinct that i have to stop it or it's killing me. I think it was a mixture of herx and other stuff.
After 7 months of antibiotics, i wasn't better i was just worse. No idea why, maybe because of heavy metals? I had a very hard time with the candida after that.
Posts: 159 | From Germany | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic