posted
This topic is really a mystery for me. I always was an outdoor child and i had a lot of ticks in my life. I was very active sometimes.
When i was 20, my health problems began. Before i was able to live a good life. I really don't know whick tick gave me lyme.
How can lyme be in your body for several years before you get trouble?! I don't get it! I think thats insane.
Why do we get sick. Are the people who are sick just the ones with the "crappy" immune system, with the bad genes or is it just random?
Some lyme experts claim that the bugs aren't the problem, it's our immune system. Okay, but i think that's a bit too far. I think everybody can get it.
Posts: 159 | From Germany | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I was never a healthy kid. Weaker than everybody else, wheezing, catching pneumonia, spacey. But I still could function well--go to school, college, grad school, get good grades, etc, until Lyme. I should say until Lyme really hit me with my latest bite, because we suspect I was infected as a kid, too. But, like onbam said, Lyme can effect everyone, athletes, wimpy people like me, everyone. Posts: 34 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Dec 2010
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lululymemom
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Member # 26405
posted
I think the Borrelia Burdorferi bacteria can infect anyone regardless of their immune system. I also think that it can stay dormant in someone who has a very strong immune system. It is usually triggered by something that compromises the immune system like Strep A or a prolonged and severe stress. Hence, the relapse occuring.
I think the best we can do is to put it back into the dormant state and try to ensure that our immune systems are strong enough to keep it there.
Most remedies other than abx focus on the immune support when treating this disease.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
I'm guessing mono is a big trigger too.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
Mono is a virus and triggers a different immune response.. It's like catching a cold only 10 times worse... I really don't know if mono would be strong enough to trigger this in a healthy person..
Usually infectious mononucleosis can keep a person in bed anywhere from one (1) week to three (3) weeks, or as long as a couple of months. Once infected, the person will be immune to further disease. Second attacks of mono are extremely rare.
1) The immune system gets weakened by stress, including other illnesses and other treatments, like steroid treatment, for example. 2) The immune system gets weakened by a poor diet.
3) Symptoms get bad enough to start showing up, as the bacteria multiply/inflame/deplete the body's resources. 4) The bacteria can hide in tissues.
5) Some strains might be more severe than others. 6) Genetic differences in ability to detox.
7) Weak places in the body - spirochetes tend to set up camp in injured places with less oxygen available.
8) People also get coinfections, which weaken the immune system. 9) Reinfection can be overwhelming to the immune system.
10) Some people unknowingly were treating the infection with good supplements, then stopped using them for some reason. A not-uncommon occurence.
Posts: 13117 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
Lyme disease has a lot more genes than other spirochetes. It is believed that these genes in part help the bacteria to adapt to a wide variety of conditions so that it can survive.
Lyme is known to be able to change its outer surface proteins, thus it can make itself look like a different bug to the immune system, and it can cycle through a bunch of different outer-surface proteins to do this... Because it keeps changing, the immune system has to constantly make new antibodies and it simply wears out the immune system eventually.
Lyme also is known to be able to change forms. There is the spirochete form, which is most vulnerable to antibiotics. Then there are intracellular forms such as cell-wall deficient forms (aka L-forms), and also cyst forms. The cyst form is probably the most resistant to bacteria and the immune system, and it can hybernate like this for a long time until conditions are right for it to emerge again as a spirochete.
Cell-wall deficient forms can also evade the immune system because there is little for the immune system to latch on to in order to make an antibody. Also, these forms tend to hide inside cells, or even inside immune cells (white blood cells), which means the body thinks that the Lyme is actually part of the body so won't attack it. Or else the immune system will attack it, but also attack healthy cells that don't have Lyme hiding in them, thus the creation of autoimmune diseases.
Lyme can also form colonies that protect themselves with biofilm (a very tough protective layer). One common biofilm is plaque on teeth...and dentists usually have to use tools to scrape this off the teeth because it is so difficult to break up with regular dental care products. Lyme biofilms are difficult for the body to get rid of and often require macrolide abx and/or certain enzymes that can break down the protective layer and thus get to the spirochetes hiding inside.
I think Lyme has more tricks up its sleeve for evading the immune system than almost any other organism out there...it is more like a parasite than a bacteria in this regard.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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Lymeorsomething
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posted
Mono can be very strong. EBV can be a trigger for a number of diseases, including gluten-sensitivity perhaps.
Plus many MDs prescribe a short course of Prednisone after mono and that = bad if you have lyme...
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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lymeladyinNY
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posted
For me, sleep deprivation and pregnancy triggered severe Lyme disease.
-------------------- I want to be free Posts: 1170 | From Endicott, NY | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Lyme is a infection that opens the dor for hundreds of bad bacteria that our body usually keep them in quarantine.After that hard to tell which one is doing more harm to us or what we have in us damaging our body .
Posts: 482 | From Nebraska | Registered: Feb 2010
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
Going by several family members that have had Lyme Disease there are a few observations I have made.
Lyme can hit you right after the tick bite, or it can be dormant for a long time, and often comes out after an injury, or illness of one kind or another.
It appears to be a disease that is almost never eliminated by the immune system without assistance.
The immune system can keep it in check for a long time, but sooner or later, you will have an injury or illness, or physiological stress, and then it comes out in force.
I fully agree that the disease weakens the immune system to a degree, that can allow other pathogens to get a foot hold in the body, and make treatment far more difficult.
It is hard to ignore the many autoimmune diseases that often enough, show up after a Lyme infection.
Dan
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
This thread is very informative. I think lyme is totally underestimated by the doctors. Here in germany, most people catch a tick, get a rash, the doctors tell em they don't need ABX, but they don't even know a rash means an infection. Even without a rash, lyme can transfer.
Many people think, if the ABX don't work, you don't have lyme. That's insane, i assume many so called "diseases" are in fact lyme. Lets face it, there are so many infections in a year and only very few of em get discovered. Now look how many people get psychatric disorders out of nowhere and believe the doctors that it's all psychosomatic...
I believe that i have a strong immune system but it wasn't enough to keep lyme under control, because my thyroid slowly disappeared. I also thought that was my whole problem.... for a long time!
Posts: 159 | From Germany | Registered: Nov 2010
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chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
There are many things that can weaken immunity.
According to an article in the Oakland Tribune about our body's chemical burden, even toddlers and nursing infants are being tested and found to have 200+ chemicals in their bodies!extras.insidebayarea.com/bodyburden/bodyburden.html www.insidebayarea.com/ci_2600879
More than 300 new chemicals per year are released into America's environment, without any testing of their impact on human health. Contrast this with Europe's policy, which requires manufacturers exceeding one ton per year to register with a database and log the human health impacts. Not in America.
No wonder our immune systems are "Down" !
A specialist told me that for any organism to sustain any infection for the long-term, it is a sign of weak immunity to begin with. No healthy organism will tolerate *long-term* infections, he said. The question then becomes how to build the body back up and strengthen it.
That's where naturopathics come in and can work hand-and-glove with mainstream medicine (which generally attacks the problem but does not know how to cleanse and strengthen the body).
Low thyroid issues can weaken immunity, writes Dr Richard Shames in his book Thyroid Power www.thyroidpower.com
The herb milk thistle has been proven again and again to block even deadly poisons from entering the liver such as those from the amanita mushroom. People who accidentally ate the death cap mushroom were injected with silybin, an extracted milk thistle constituent (much different than taking the herb alone, the isolated constituent is more concentrated, and injecting it is also different than taking it by mouth). Not even one person treated in this way died, so long as they were treated within 48 hours, wrote phytotherapy authority Christopher Hobbs in his book "Natural Therapy for your Liver", which I recommend. For humanitarian reasons, no controls were used in this study, and to repeat every life was saved. Here is a government study which states that people who had eaten the poison amanita mushroom (death cap) with elevated liver enzymes and other signs of liver disease, were treated in the same way and there were no deaths: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00915681
It is believed that the silybin in milk thistle binds to liver receptor sites and thus blocks chemical entry. In fact, laboratory rats injected with the milk thistle constituents *prior to* eating the amanita mushroom, showed 100% protection!!
Further, milk thistle actually encourages the growth of new liver tissue. This enables the body to detoxify all the more. Indirectly, cleansing can be an aid to immune wellness, though it is not The Cure by any means. Many more herbs can and do boost immunity:
Astragalus has been shown to strengthen immunity over time.
Echinacea is a mixed story. In many studies it has been shown to be used very safely. One single study out of many, which also used an extracted constituent called echinacin---again this is different than using the whole herb----showed that T cell production in the human host at first rose, then dropped after ten days, as if the immune system was over-stimulated. The echinacea purpurea variety has since been seen to be less immune-stimulating than the e. palida or other varieties. Herbalists caution people to use it no more than ten days in a row, then to take a break, just in a spirit of caution. That said, it is a marvellous lymphatic cleanser (very much indicated in lyme). The contra-indications are in auto-immune disease (not a good idea to stimulate t cell production, which would only increase immune cell attack on the body).
Ashwaganda will boost T3 and T4 production (thyroid hormones) especially the latter.
There are many other herbs which aid immunity.
I am a certified herbalist.
Herbal studies can be researched here by your doctor:
www.pubmed.gov The best source for drug-herb interactions is by Treasure/Stargrove/McKee, called "Nutrient, Herb and Drug Interactions" it is marvellous.
I am not selling anything, am not trying to make a profit for anyone else and am posting this for the public cause.
Myself, taking herbal products formulated for lyme by an ND, I found my herx's were much more mild than on the antibiotics and progress was dramatic. The herbs help to kill the bug by stimulating the body's own defenses, rather than going on bug attack mode per se. Cleansing is supported and therefore herx's can be more mild. We reached a point when my LLMD felt we needed to go deeper by using antibiotics, but my herx's have been so strong that I am very uncomfortable with this process and am going to put my own self back on the herbs to see what happens. I figure my doctor is my guidepost and advisor, but I am the decision maker. Such is my attitude.
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chiquita incognita
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posted
PS regarding low immunity, those who were nursed for short periods only during infancy, or were not nursed at all and were bottle fed, have also shown life-long lowered immunity. Cholostrum (From cows) has often helped such people. The good news is that the cow makes more colostrum even after being milked for it, so it does not deprive the calf of what it needs nor does it hurt the cow. Colostrum can be purchased at healthfood stores, but check with your doctor no matter what, to be sure you are not doing anything that will conflict with the mainstream drugs or that will over-boost any particular body system. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!
In my best understanding, even if lyme gets inside immune cells and "hides" the body's immune cells would still attack it as "non-self" and thereby create auto-immune illness. Auto-immune attack does not happen to healthy cells with nothing attached to them, is my best understanding. Regarding lyme hiding within the cells/no immune cell attack, I could be wrong, so let me qualify that. Again in my best understanding, when foreign matter is attached to any cell it is regarded by the body's immune system as "non-self" and then is attacked as a foreign invader.
As PS to my post above about herbs, I add a qualifier:
This information is for your educational benefit only, and has not been evaluated by the FDA. This information does not diagnose, cure or prevent any disease. ALways check with your doctor about drug-herb interactions. Even if some may interact, others may not. But there still is the concern that to over-stimulate any body system (Duplicate herbal and drug functions) can put a patient "over the top" and this can be ill-advised, occasionally even dangerous. Do not administer herbs, nutrients and mainstream drugs on your own without checking with your doctor first. Very important.
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posted
Chiquita - question for you - I can't take a lot of supplements - for example, if I take milk thistle, I throw up. Any idea why, when it's supposed to be good for us?
Posts: 13117 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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