MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
Guys, babesia and Lyme are cyclical illnesses in many people. How in the world do you (this applies to any treatment) know that whatever you're having is a herx and not just a flare-up? I know that I couldn't tell when I was on known and well-studied anti-babesia drugs (that eventually got rid of my babesia)- there were times that even though I took the drugs very regularly I would sometimes have a one day-or-three-day flare-up out of the blue and get worse- it wasn't in response to my medication, since that wasn't changing.
Also, before I treated Lyme or knew I had it, and at the beginning of my chronic illness, I periodically went into remission without any treatment and then got worse and would get flare-ups and get sicker, all without any rhyme or reason (eventually I just stayed sick and got worse and worse till someone figured out I had Lyme and clued me in). Again, I wasn't taking anything- it's just something that Lyme and co are known to do in some people.
So, if you're someone with this sort of pattern to your illness, how in the world do you think your getting worse is 'herxing' rather than just 'getting worse at random'?
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
quote:Originally posted by Paul Mall:
you caught a buzz off 1 drop of alcohol?
that made me laugh a bit
I would find that comical, but when I was sick, I'd have a very slight buzz off of receiving the wine at communion .... in fact, when it would happen, I DID find it comical!!
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
My herx symptoms are nothing like my flares
my main herx symptoms are "Brain Fog , Severe Fatigue (Need to sleep after being up for just a couple hours) , muscle twitching"
I never had Brain Fog or Fatigue before treatment only when I herx
when I flare it's usually in the Form of chest pain (pericarditis), sternum pain , rib cage pain , and nerve pain down the length of left arm , left leg and side of neck.
vision floaters are a constant
I will post the data I am gathering later this evening for those who are interested in looking at it.
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Herx shmerx. Are you feeling better?
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
Yes, that is the question.. herxing should have some positive outcome.. If not, then it's not really doing anything beneficial. I felt I was herxing at 10 drops of A-Bart but after a few months, I really wasn't any better than when I started.
I am also one of the biggest proponents of herbal therapies here.. If I found this to be curative, I would be willing to pay $1000 nevermind $100.. So far I have only heard of one person that felt this put them into remission and I have been on several different sites looking for this confirmation.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Actually, I am going to defend the strong herxes some of these antiparasiticals can produce including A babs and A bart.
I started taking herbs in Nov 2005 (Monastery Of Herbs) and I have herxed severly from all of the herbs I took.
For me the proof was in the dieoff of parasites that came out of me in the toilet.(It took 6 mos to start seeing results. The KEY is staying on them and not just taking them for a month or 2.
Antiparasitics also have antibacterial and antifungal properties. I did have better results with the encapsulated herbs than the tinctures.
So, no herxing by itself was not the proof I needed it was the dieoff that I ultimately witnessed.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I've always heard Monastery of Herbs is good...
Paul, I'm a lot better than I was in a moldy apt in NYC!!!! Still a ways to go but my approach tends to be to remove inflammatory triggers from the immune system, support it with nutritional/glutathione etc IV therapy, hyperbaric etc, and basically try to assist it back to homeostasis where it can deal with borrelia on its own. At least to the extent that's possible. Gael did well with salt/c and 4 days of it practically did me in, took 8 months to recover somewhat, and still have severe MCS from it, don't know why. Therefore I'm wary for my body of any strong drugs or herbs or anything but supportive therapies. I found that camping in wilderness works really well!! If you wonder why, you have to think about why so many people are sick, and examine all the toxic impacts of modern life.
For example, your FB wall talks about your insomnia. There were days/nights in NY when the combination of noise, stress and reactions to molds...I'd sleep half an hour a night for 3 or 4 nights.
In wilderness, I can sleep deeply 8-10 hours...that's very healing. See Sundog Tales blog from Lisa Paussman for posts on the same.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I "herxed" from 1 drop of Nutramedix cumanda. The enula also made me herx...
I later realized I must have a parasite issue. To me a herx means increased pain. Enula gave me diarrhea. I think both of these things relates to parasites. Cumanda & enula are anti-parasite herbs as well as for other issues.
Herxing can also be from candida or an allergic reaction. It's really hard to pinpoint that these symptoms actually mean we are killing a pathogen.
I did the Nutramedix protocol faithfully for about 6-9 months. I went through ups & downs. It wasn't a cure. We don't really know if these herbs are cures unless we have some kind of clinical study with parameters.
A few people posting that they feel better is not enough. I'm glad I was on a program & got the Nutramedix herbs for free. I don't think these tinctures are enough on their own but everyone may have their own experience. We are all different.
The placebo effect is quite strong. If it's what's causing these things to work - than that's OK. I think these herb tinctures are too expensive, though - based on my experience with the Cowden protocol which is similar in ways.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
We asked 7 Abab users and 10 Abart users how many drops before they herxed (Completing the Challenge Phase)
here are the findings.
Abart 1-3 Drops (40 percent) Abart 4-7 Drops (30 Percent) Abart no herx (20 Percent) Abart less than one drop (10 Percent)
Abab 4-7 drops (42 percent) Abab 1-3 drops (28 Percent) Abab less than one drop (28 Percent)
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I think you have to see how these people feel in about 6 months to a year from now & even longer. Having a herx doesn't mean that they will get well.
With herbs, it generally takes a bit longer to see results. 17 people is not really a big enough study sample. I'm not an expert at developing studies but it doesn't seem to be enough data to tell for sure whether these products are effective over the long haul.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
this was pretty much to show the people who think im just making this stuff up that I actually have reasons for what I say sometimes
but not all the time
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
We all try to do the best we can. No one is blaming anyone. It's just that many people have spent good money on stuff that seems promising to find out it was useless in the long haul.
Studies can be tainted by interests - that's for sure. It's just that testimonials can be wrong, the placebo effect, misleading, or down right propaganda to tout products. It goes both ways.
Sometimes, it just takes some patience to see if a given product is going to really pan out. Whenever some new, big star product comes out - I will usually wait at least 6 months to a year to see the reactions.
From what I have observed, the BW herbs are having mixed results. Doesn't seem like a "cure". The Cowden herbs were touted in the same manner. History seems to be repeating itself.
Just my observations.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Also - we all want to "believe" we are doing the right thing, correct protocol. We want to believe that we will get well from all the time, effort, research, authority figure advice, etc. we are doing.
Sometimes this belief is misleading & skews the actual effect of the treatment. It does take time to see if these things are really effective or not. If someone takes a product or drug & has a good day, they may say the product or drug is wonderful & effective. We don't know if the same holds true for 6 months from now.
People want to believe that they are on the right track & that what they are doing is a cure. It's just that it doesn't always work that way - unfortunately.
It sort of reminds me of the tv show The X-files... "I want to believe." Sometimes, it really may be a UFO but sometimes it's just an airplane.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Very well said sparkle. You always seem to have just the right words to sort out difficult situations.
Wishing everyone healing from this horrific disease not matter what path you chose as long as it works.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
If Byron White still has lyme disease, what does that say about his herbs?
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
My opinion is that the herbs can be useful as maintenance once whatever Lyme/co's/metals issue has been stamped down. Again, just my opinion and experience.
As we all know Lyme,co's/metals issues will be different for each individual.
I have tried A-Bart and AL. I like them and definitely herxed. Was able to sustain 18 drops each, twice a day. Do I think they are overpriced? Yes but also effective....
Posts: 31 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
All I'm saying is...doctors shouldn't make the profit, using their MD degree to Rx and double the price on something; the ND who created them should set the price.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful feedback and helpful information. MariaA and MichaelTampa, your posts were just what I was looking for, I really appreciate them. I am glad this question turned into such a vibrant discussion!
Best wishes to all on the journey back to health.
-------------------- BetterInPortland Posts: 13 | From Portland, OR, NW US | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
There's nothing special about BWs formulas imo.
Just some potent herbs that, in many cases, are better taken in powder form than tincture. I was able to take 30 drops 2/day of both A-Bart and A-Babs.
Buhners protocol got me to 95% as long as I stayed strict on the herbs.
Ultimately I'm not sure herbs are enough for Lyme + Cos
But we all have to figure that out on our own.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good comment TF "If Byron White still has lyme disease, what does that say about his herbs? "
I find it hard to swallow taking and paying for something that I know nothing of and can't find any info on. The abab does not have artimesia in it yet I think the abart does. That's kind of funny. I just would like to find some data on this np.
These are so new and unproven yet. No track record . Who knows what kind of side effects or allergic reaction one might expect. I doubt the dr.s know either. With BW unable to be found to answer any issues or questions is not good in my book either. Did he fall off the face of the earth or is he vacationing somewhere with all of our money. I think it is wrong to be used for first line of treatment. I agree for maintenance. You need to stick with tried and true.
I don't want to be experimented on.
Oxygenbabe, Perfect scenerio for dr.s treat with herbs...make money for appt. make money from herbs stay under the radar for not dishing abx out.
Posts: 433 | From new york | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I'm no fan of these herbs or unproven stuff, but this line is kind of ironic:
"I don't want to be experimented on."
Well, time to stop treating Lyme/coinfections then because that's all LLMDs do every day in and out..experimenting. There are NO real/perfect documented treatments for an illness that doesn't exist!!!
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[lol]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic