map1131
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posted
Well, Seek I don't believe you would trust a rife machine to kill the simple cold/flu virus dear.
I'm not talking about a situation like Heather is in. But I can knock/disturb some mold spores, bacteria, viruses like you don't know/believe until one experiences it yourself.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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oxygenbabe
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I have researched this for several years and left a much cherished home with too much toxic mold in the wall cavities. I also gave away all my furniture; what I tried to hold onto, was also contaminated so that once I was in a clear environment, I began to react to those items.
I then began to study how this could be, and how homes are built, and how mold grows in insulation, how water and moisture build up in wall cavities and ceiling cavities, and whether mold, once it is so prevalent in a structure that is even in high numbers in the dust (per ERMI test)--and what happens when you have both lyme and a genetic predisposition to be affected by mold, with immune system effects.
And the reality is, no, you can't remediate the home, the mold spores and toxins will have permeated it. If you are healthy, or not susceptible to mold illness, then you can remediate, sure. But if you are a person with lyme/mold illness, and you think spending all that money remediating is useful, it is not. You would only know if you left the environment completely for even a few weeks, bringing none of your contaminated items with you, and see how you felt away, and on your return. Usually, if you have a soup of toxic vocs from mold in your home, you will get sick or sicker immediately on re-entry.
Not everybody has this genetic predisposition. But anyone who is a lymie who is concerned enough to be going to the extent LymeMom is, is in my opinion very sincere but not making the correct decision. It's bargaining with a devil, and the devil doesn't bargain. The devil will remain. Did you know that mold spores can travel 50 mph, using water and air currents? Do you think that mold will stay in just one little area of the home? How did it end up in the ERMI sample?
A good book to read is Breathable Walls by George Swanson; Prescriptions for a Healthy Home by Paula Baker LaPorte, and all of Ritchie Shoemaker's work including his most recent on moldy buildings.
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tickled1
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I am considering having my house tested but am worried about getting scammed. Since mold spores are everywhere, I would think a positive result would be expected anywhere whether there's visible mold or not. How can I be sure that a positive result truly indicated a problem?
Would running a HEPA air purifier help reduce the amount of mold spores in the air? And if there's no visibile mold in my home or smell is there any reason to test?
Has anyone here heard of using "Mold Dogs" to identify where mold is located in the home?
Am wondering if a week long trial run away from my home may be in order to determine if my house is the problem.
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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seekhelp
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I'm strongly considering the EMRI test, but I'm wondering if I truly can perform the sample testing correctly to make it worth any value. I agree Ticked1 that being scammed is a huge concern of mine.
The reason I have concern is every time I take my morning shower, i walk out feeling weak, eyes burning, sometimes nauseated, and generally worse than when I entered. I took a shower at a hotel out of state and experienced none of this. Something seems wrong.
I also have a dehumidifer in the basement and it just runs 24/7 even in the winter. Humidity jumps to 60%+ easily. I empty full pails of water from the water collection bucket daily. That seems like bad news.
Is this EMRI test believed to be worthwhile outside of the alternative circles?
Oxygenbabe, are you better now that you left to another home?
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momlyme
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I felt the ERMI test was the best way to tell if I have a problem because that is what Dr. S, author of Mold Warriors and his newer book Surviving Mold says to do.
All you do is connect their collection trap to a regular household vacuum and pick a 18 square foot area in the living room and a bedroom. I did my son's bedroom since he is the sickest.
If you do find mold you will have to do further testing to determine what areas are the worst...
The ERMI is only the beginning if you DO have an issue. I thought I was ruling my house out. I never imagined my house was the problem!
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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momlyme
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quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: I also have a dehumidifer in the basement and it just runs 24/7 even in the winter. Humidity jumps to 60%+ easily. I empty full pails of water from the water collection bucket daily. That seems like bad news.
Why don't you have the dehumidifier draining on it's own? (with a hose)
And you asked, "Is this EMRI test believed to be worthwhile outside of the alternative circles?"
It's EPA approved.
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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seekhelp
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MomLyme, I need to get a longer hose to drain it to the sump pump. It's a real pain as I need to keep the dehumidifer a good distance from the sump pit or it'll never stop. It's probably 20 ft away. Typical hoses are 6 ft long for this purpose. I need to buy a 25 ft garden hose and cut one end off to customize it to the correct length.
I also have a LOT of plants in my basement because I grow stuff for my garden. I'm guessing that doesn't help with humidity. lol.
MomLyme, do you have the phone number of the company you used to do the EMRI testing? I'd like to call and talk to them more.
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Tammy N.
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Seek - sump pump in the house is not a good idea, as I've been reading....
I understand the thinking behind it, but that means that water is already inside. The trick is to fix the problem from the outside so water never gets in.
btw - I sadly thew out all of my houseplants for right now. (I love love love plants, but knew that they had to go right now as I'm battling with all of this stuff).
Posts: 2238 | From East Coast | Registered: Jul 2010
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oxygenbabe
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The best test is to go away for two weeks, with a few cheap new outfits, don't bring much from the house even your computer, go to a clear clean place where you can be outdoors in good air much of the day and see if you feel better. THEN come back and see how sick you feel.
All the testing and remediating is imo a waste of money if you are mold sensitive or have toxic molds/bacteria in your home.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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tickled1
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Anyone else have a problem with family accepting the possibility of all of this and the magnitude of it all?
I mean with what Lyme and Co. has already taken away from me and my family, to then have to break it to them that we would maybe have to say bye-bye to our house and belongings? I realize there truly could be something to all of this but how can I "go there"? I can't wrap my mind around all of it and can't even imagine what springing this on my family would do to us.
Really, the thought of uprooting my family on top of what we've already been through just seems unimaginable even if this is the culprit. I mean, if I'm that far gone that I need to take these measures I'm thinking enough is enough. What will be next? If it was just me I'd probably entertain all of it as I do believe the possibility of this but I don't know how to continue to take my family on this roller coaster ride with me. They've been through enough.
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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momlyme
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quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: MomLyme, do you have the phone number of the company you used to do the EMRI testing? I'd like to call and talk to them more.
Tel: (732) 355-9018
I called and talked to Dr. Lin before I ordered mine. He was very helpful.
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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momlyme
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quote:Originally posted by oxygenbabe: The best test is to go away for two weeks, with a few cheap new outfits, don't bring much from the house even your computer, go to a clear clean place where you can be outdoors in good air much of the day and see if you feel better. THEN come back and see how sick you feel.
All the testing and remediating is imo a waste of money if you are mold sensitive or have toxic molds/bacteria in your home.
So how do you know if the new place you move into (rent or buy) is mold free? You test, you remediate, you buy a air purifier, you wash all non porous surfaces with a solution of ammonia and water.
Whether you are sensitive to mold or not mycotoxins can kill you. Mold is not an allergen. People with mold allergies may sniff a little.
Mold is know to be a precursor to cancer, immune disfunction and heart disease!
I would be far more worried about these things than being sensitive to mold.
How bout if you move out and remediate while you are out so you have a clean home to go home to!
I understand that some houses may be beyond repair... but most are able to be lived in after remediation with professional help!
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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momlyme
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tickled - I am sorry you are so overwhelmed.
I thank God most of my family is so sick that they are willing to do anything to get well.
Perhaps my husband thought I was overreacting when he brought a gym bag into our motel room.
I said -"if you bring clothes they must be in a plastic, grocery bag..." and I put the gym bag in the trunk of his car.
IMO, we would be better off washing clothes in a laundromat before bringing them into our room. That is a lot to ask, though.
No papers, no books.
I did bring my laptop. Some clothes. My pills, supplements... and I am cleaning like a mad woman.
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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MichaelTampa
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tickled--Regarding the question of how does one test when mold is everywhere, my understanding is that they test the air outside your house and the air inside your house (potentially various locations of each). What they like to see for a "good/clean/negative" test result is the level of mold in the inside air being 10% or less than that of the outside air.
I haven't had this done yet. We had obvious problems that we were going to fix anyway, so, since the testing is expensive, we're fixing some things first, then we'll test to see if we've done enough.
Anyone know anything about dehumidifiers. I live in Florida, so we run A/C a lot in the summer. But, sometimes in the late fall and winter and early spring, the temperature is good, but it is still humid. I'll find myself sometimes running the A/C to dry it out, then eventually running the heat when it gets too cold, and so on, just to keep the humidity down. I feel very uncomfortable when it is humid.
So, anyway, to my question--is there a way I can get them to convert my "regular" full-home A/C & heater unit into something that will also just dehumidify without cooling/heating? Sort of don't know where to go, who to ask, to get the right thing.
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oxygenbabe
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LymeMom, you just haven't researched it thoroughly, with all due respect. I lived through it and I researched it extensively. Sorry, but you can't remediate a home with toxic mold, *if* you are already sick from it and a lymie and mold sensitive (I'm not talking allergies). It can't be done. You may improve your home, at the loss of many thousands of dollars, but you won't get rid of it. And any exposure is going to crash your immune system and make it difficult for anybody to get well. Believe me. I went through it. I also went through the denial and bargaining stage. I had a great home. I had beautiful furniture and clothes. Nothing is worth it, if you can feel better and get better away from the mold, at which point your immune system may come back online enough to handle treatments that previously were not working because of profound immune dysregulation from toxic mold voc's (and bacteria don't forget they like water damaged buildings, too).
Remediation is a necessity for the HEALTHY.
I really don't know what more to add. I know it's daunting, and most people don't want to think about it or do it.
As for not knowing whether another home is moldy, you definitely should get a history of water damage, have the home tested ahead of time (ERMI and have a good Indoor Air Quality consultant come through and make sure there is no moisture in the walls, etc) and RENT not buy, or RENT before buying in case you make a very bad error on home #2 and need to move from that, too.
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oxygenbabe
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By the way, air purifiers will do nothing much for a situation where a home has toxic mold. They may catch some of the mold spores, that's all.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: By the way, air purifiers will do nothing much for a situation where a home has toxic mold. They may catch some of the mold spores, that's all.
Ahem, oxygenbabe, excuse me, sorry to spoil your infinite pessimism and negativity, but there are air purifiers with built-in ultraviolet lamps that kill all types of mold that pass through them.
The ultimate solution is to remediate, but these kinds of cleaners can mitigate in the meantime especially when placed in a small room.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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seekhelp
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Wow, Oxygenbabe is painting a pretty bleak situation. It makes me not want to get my home tested. I hope it's not that deadly.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
c4a and tgf-b1 might be decent measures of how remediated your home may be for you. I left a home with a -2.2 ERMI because I was reacting to the dust post remediation. We had not cleaned the house out, though. This could have been an intensification reaction that Ive heard is common with folks who have removed the source of mold illness ( or most likely moved from it)and we may have accomplished that with the remediation. Then I may have started reacting to dander or other particles in the dust, esp since the ERMI was as low as it was. The thing is... we dont know.
I relocated to a new construction (bad idea) that was available to me (father in construction) and paid a price for that.
Honestly, I am on the fence with this one. Our home never tested high for spore counts. We had stachy behind kneewall of shower with an open seam. Possibly enough to make me sick or not.. we dont know. I have lyme as well and my c4a is at "chronic lyme" as well as past mold exposure levels (less than 10,000).
My parents house is sky high with asper-pen (15,000 per cu meter air) and has stachy readings as well (over 1500 per cu meter air). The mold has been blowing into the house through crawl space duct work. They do not have CFS or lyme. They do have chronic pain and my father just had a massive stroke.
We have to remediate the crawl space which means taking out cellulose based (newspaper.. yes.. thats right) insulation from the crawlspace to make it even sellable.
They will have been out long enough to hopefully know if the house will be an issue. Cheap furniture and clothes.. glass and metal tables, well finished wood.. they may not be able to tolerate.
I have the book, Are You Moldy, and plan to call the company that makes the mold-bacteria eating bacteria.. a little concerned regarding what it si and if it will come back to bite down the road.
I think its wise to look at the different sceneriod and try to play it smart.. remediation might not work.. then how much are you willing to be out of pocket for this potential reality..
I can say that esp with a family it is difficult to house jump and you dont know what you are moving into..
Look at my house.. ERMI at -2.2.. but it possibly had enough stachy in it to make me as sick as I am.. possibly not, but it had stachy.
[ 04-26-2011, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: R62 ]
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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Real Time Lab for mold in body and mycotoxins. Make sure you do first AM urine. Labcorb and Quest can test for antibodies to mold which might indicate exposure.
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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If you are talking stand alone hepas (like Austin Air), they will capture the mold spores which will not be killed, then they will be emitting toxxins and antigens.
If you are talking UV lights in those hepas, then whatever KILLS mold WITHOUT DENATURING the toxins, will cause the spores to fragment into smaller particles that are more easily breathed into lungs which STILL CONTAIN the toxin and the antigen, though dead.
If you are talking hepas in your HVAC system, they can help trap mold spores and at least you can replace this regularly. They will not take care of a mold problem.
Bee propylis will not take care of a mold problem nor will Thieves oil.. if they do KILL, they will supposedly FRAGMENT the spores and make them potentially more lethal in regards to toxicity and sensitivity, allergy.
YOU DONT KILL MOLD unless you can clearly wipe it fragments away. You MUST find the source and get rid of the mold by properly taking it out of your house. Im not sure how that bacteria mold eating product works but I am close to sure the company advocates complete removal of mold and using the product as a clean up measure (if it works)
For clean up, most experts who know what they are talking about recommended soap and water and hepa vaccuuming.
Im not sure all agree on the role of ammonia.. I have read an article that claims it will DENATURE toxins but I am not sure and neither are all the mold experts in agreement. One recipe is 1 cup per gallon (i think .. google it) to wipe down surfaces in home. I would only do this if I could tolerate it and felt certain it DENATURED the toxins, otherwise.. if we are talking residual post remediation mold spores, if you continually clean, use hepa vac, filters on HVAC.. maybe you will be able to clean up enough to be tolerable for you. KILLING will not kill toxins or antigens. It kills mold so it wont multiply.
Thats interesting about walls of house not being in proper humidity range.. can that be checked with a moisture meter?
We may use an antimicrobial in my parents crawlspace because if we do not kill the spores they will grow back. One reason I am interested in the mold eating bacteria, though leary of it.
I dont understand how a house can be so high at 20 on the ERMI and NOT have a source for the mold. There has to be a source and if you cannot see it, O2babe is most likely right.. its behind your walls (pinhole leaks in copper pipes??) or in your crawlspace if you have one. Its there somewhere. And your house cannot be remediated without finding the source and removing it.
My parents tried this and it backfired. You have to find the source. I cant imagine those spores just blew in.
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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we are acting on that premise and remediating enough to sell might be a good marker to go by.
See if you can tolerate it at good enough to sell and go from there.
you would anyway get rid of stuffed items, stuffed furniture, clothing, papers or store them.. you would need to move in with cheap furniture, minimal, cheap clothing no matter where you go.
Make a list of what good enough to sell involves and a list of what you are comfortable going beyond that doing and are willing to risk financially.
Shoemaker has his own test. Test c4a before and then so many hours or so ? after and see what happens.
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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momlyme
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quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: Wow, Oxygenbabe is painting a pretty bleak situation. It makes me not want to get my home tested. I hope it's not that deadly.
Think about me who already had my home tested.
I can't let all this scare me too much. I have to keep a one day at a time attitude.
Maybe a little Scarlet O'Hara too. "I'll think about that tomorrow."
My husband and I have discussed remediating and then moving. With the house like it is, I could not sell it without remediating. My conscious would never let me.
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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oxygenbabe
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I am not being bleak about it. When you get out, and you start to feel SO MUCH BETTER you will be so glad. I am just telling you how it is, *if* you are a lymie with mold illness, too. Or a moldie (just have serious mold illness). Many people can tolerate this stuff or only get mild/moderate illness. Healthy people who have little to no reaction, or tolerable stuff like sinus infections and headaches but are functional, if attached to their homes, can remediate, though one never knows. If you want to really get a dose of reality contact, Jack Thrasher, PhD.
Remediate the home for ethics--you don't want to have so much toxic mold and sell it to another family and make them sick. Make sure it is down to tolerable levels and any obvious mold has been taken care of. Then sell it, furnished, and start over.
Personally I never tested--except years ago, maybe 2002, I had Marinkovich when he was still alive consult with my doctor on my mold antibodies. I was sky high off the chart on all molds which he said never happened unless there were molds in the home but I was not willing to face it for another 7 years, until gut demolition in our building with multiple bursting pipes and leaks had made the situation so much worse and I'd gotten so sick I was basically nonfunctional. In addition, for me, the toxic mold soup probably leading with stachybochtyros led to such severe depression which has basically lifted since leaving in late 2009. Whenever I walk into a place with stachybochtyros contamination which is not too often, I immediately get the depression back within minutes and skedaddle out of there. So my feeling is testing is expensive and listening to your body is better. Your body will tell you. If a whole family is really sick, the bodies are talking.
This is not bleak but it *is* challenging. Because the sad thing is most modern homes are built to mold in two seconds as soon as there is a leak, or even excess humidity. Please buy the books I mentioned so you can understand what is wrong. Vapor barriers actually lead to mold. Fiberglass insulation can get horrible mold. Plywood and particle board type woods mold far faster than good old fashioned wood. Carpet and wallpaper are bad. Drywall has a cellulose coating that is mold food. As Paula Baker LaPorte said to me, Mold in homes was not such a widespread problem (I'm paraphrasing) before these building techniques, along with interior plumbing. In other words, all those showers and all that cooking. Many homes are built with kitchens and bathrooms venting into attics that aren't properly vented themselves and the attics mold. All crawlspaces mold. Many basements mold. A simple crack, or few cracks in the foundation and the soil moisture which can get really high at night, will mold.
I was in my friend's beautiful home in a wealthy neighborhood and the basement smelled moldy to me. I have a really acute sense of smell. It was a daylight basement where he had his office. He listened to me (I was amazed; many people can't bear the thought and want to bargain with the mold in one way or another), and had tests done, there were four molds growing, and he remediated. They never found water damage per se. He had the foudnation of the entire basement re-sealed, and found some weird stuff growing behind his infrared sauna.
The flaw with the "filter uv light" hypothesis is the idea that this filter will actually clean ALL THE AIR in the room. Nope. If you really want to clear the space in a room do what I did while still living in my moldy apartment, and put Holmes window fans in the windows--some blowing in and some blowing out. This creates a negative pressure where you are actually pulling air through the space at a constant rate, and mold spores can't really stay aloft and your count will go down. I always felt better in the better weather when I did this but as soon as cool fall weather hit I could not do this anymore. I did this intuitively and one Indoor Air Quality expert told me I was the first person he'd ever consulted for who figured that out on her own.
Okay, I won't post more on this subject, I know it's hard to face, and wish you all the best.
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Tammy N.
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oxygenbabe - I think it's good that you are sharing your perspective. This is how we all learn. Some people may need to take these drastic measures, and some won't. Please don't feel like you shouldn't post on this. Your strong approach might be what's needed for some.
I'm trying to wrap my arms around the bigness of this issue. I'm hoping a middle-of-the-road approach will work for me. I don't mind getting rid of things like couches, rugs, mattresses, etc. But certainly I'd like to try to keep my wood furniture, clothing, etc.. I'm going to let the test results guide me (home testing, and also blood tests).
Oxygenbabe, can you share how you found your way to a healthy, mold-free home? This is what has me stumped. I feel like where can we go and how can we be sure it's safe? How did you go about it?
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map1131
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Well I'm certainly talking surface everyday mold in a shower stall. Not what some of you are going through.
I had a toxic home on a lake. It was more than just mold toxic from being on the waterfront. It was tick toxic.
We actually ran the hose from dehumidifier in that basement thru the interior wall, thru concrete and to the outside where it ran down the hill in black tubing.
That helped greatly during the spring and summer. Then we added furnance to the lake house to make it useable year round. The only time I didn't smell the water, wet, mold smell was during the winter.
Don't miss that fight at all. So long tick haven. I can't image my primary residence being toxic.
I would do my research on any company I was hiring through every agency out there...BBB, health dept, internet research looking for complaints.
Sometimes you've just got to trust you gut and try to fix your problem.
This thread has got me thinking about humidifier we put on our furnance a couple years ago. Our home was so dry during winter it drove me crazy.
I'm very electrified and every winter I went around blowing light bulbs, tripping circuit breakers and even frying wall switches.
The humidifier really helps keep me from getting zapped and blowing things. But too much humidity can be harmful. Thanks for tips on keeping humidy levels safe.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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seekhelp
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I thought she said in a previous post she doesn't live in a house and maybe outdoors?
I agree. I like hearing all perspectives on an issue and don't mind at all. Feel free to share no matter how 'downer' it may be. If I could feel normal, I'd do about anything now.
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momlyme
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quote:Originally posted by oxygenbabe: LymeMom, sorry to say you will not get rid of the mold. And btw it's mixed microorganisms as bacteria also give off harmful vocs. No matter what you remediate it has permeated the entire structure, in places you will never find, and relative humidity in wall cavities and certain areas can easily be higher than 50% even if the air is not. Do your research. You will spend a lot on remediation and you will still be exposed and if you are genetically predisposed to be sensitive, you will remain sick. You should remediate what is obvious for ethical reasons and then sell it, and throw out all upholstered furniture, mattresses, and probably clothing. Once you get away from it all, you'll know if you react around items from the house, whether they are salvageable or not.
Otherwise I personally think just live in the house and don't waste money on remediation. That will be cheaper even if you remain sick.
I do my research on everything that can and does contribute to the health of my family. Believe me... I research.
Your experience and advice is very negative.
I tend to look toward the positive.
We have learned something. We hired a professional to do detailed testing and we are proceeding with remediation while we live in a motel.
Moving from place to place without taking care of the home we own would be quite irresponsible. I will clean it up as best I can and AT THAT POINT, I will determine (with testing) whether our family can live in it or not.
I will not give up and continue to live in a toxic home. That would be a death sentence. I love my life, my children and my husband too much for that.
So we got some mold... FIX IT!
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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momlyme
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posted
quote:Originally posted by tickled1: Let's say there was mold in a wall or ceiling and the moisture problem was fixed and the old dead mold is contained in the dried out wall and not airborn at all is it still a problem? I imagine if it is dry, contained, dead and not able to become airborn because it is closed up/contained it shouldn't pose a problem, right?
I have read that if you cut the wood back 12 inches from the mold growth and replace it that is the safest way.
I have also heard that dead mold is as dangerous as live mold... maybe even more so.
Who is to say those mold spores will stay trapped in a wall... all you need is a tiny hole to let the mycotoxins fly.
Fix the source of the leak. Remove damaged building materials. Then you can begin to clean up the rest of the indoor air.
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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momlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 27775
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quote:Originally posted by tickled1: Momlyme,
How were they able to determine it is in the walls?
I hired a professional inspector. I have a report, just got it yesterday afternoon. He used all kinds of tools, gadgets and machines to measure aire quality, determine whether mold is growing or inactive, humidity, visual inspection, etc.
The wall that my son shared with the upstairs bathroom is the worst! Perhaps why he is so sick.
Every morning, I felt like I was hung over. I kept telling my husband I feel so much worse in the morning. I had no idea it was because my second floor bathroom was making me sick!
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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map1131
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posted
momlyme, I hope you can get this taken care quickly. I know you are really freaking with that report that tells the rest of the story.
I believe you had commented you had looked up hundreds of posts/threads by Gigi on mold????
Gigi doesn't do PMs. Her email address is all over this board. You could ask her advice on somethings and she will either give you her experience or expertise or send you to sites that will advice you how to proceed.
Gigi is more than willing to guide anyone that asks. She only pops in here and posts when she has time.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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oxygenbabe
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Member # 5831
posted
Ok I'll post again.
LymeMom my experience is not negative. My experience is life-affirming. I went for life, and I listened to my body. Your whole family is sick, and you will make your choices, I can only give my perspective because the whole family is so ill and your ERMI test was so high.
To the others, I also have pretty serious MCS. Finding that when I'm camping in wilderness I sleep deeply, am much more active, feel so much better, etc etc, even better than just getting away from that toxic home, and having done so much research, I want to build my own safe home. But first I am going to build a nontoxic trailer so we can explore different areas (we've explored three states so far) and see what we like best. We really like wilderness camping, away from all the EMF, pollution, noise, chemicals, mold and all that. Once I have a nontoxic trailer we can live in it while we build. There *are* some folks who built mold free totally nontoxic homes with breathable walls and good materials but they aren't selling them!!
The trailer, in a vardo style, is being designed for me now. I have a few builders in mind and if they don't work out, will easily find one since they really only need to be a decent carpenter/builder since the plans will all be there. I have researched extensively about nontoxic building, insulation, shielded wiring etc. There are other serious things to worry about besides mold, like smart meters...like high EMF from bad wiring, that can cause cancer...etc
If you really do your research on how buildings and homes are built, you will see why most of them are really potentially a health disaster.
Let me reiterate my view is not negative. Walking around a crystal clear lake with my partner within 200,000 acres of wilderness, certainly is a heckuva lot better than being bedridden with vertigo, pain, muscle cramps, depression, and a multitude of other symptoms. I wouldn't have tried to remediate that home for anything. Each to his own. My perspective may stick with some and be rejected by others.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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oxygenbabe
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PS We don't camp fulltime by any means. We've found the rare b&b or hotel room that is pretty good quality, and alternate between that and camping. I'm not committing to a longterm rental that could have a hidden mold problem. That's just me.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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tickled1
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Member # 14257
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Do I have this right now? I should only panic about toxic mold? That is what gives off mycotoxins? I don't need to freak out about a mold sensitivity or allergy?
I saw my new LLMD Mon. and I will be tested for mold exposure and if it comes back high then I will test my home. Will also do some kind of vision test online that shows if my vision has been effected by mold? Anyone done this?
How likely is old dead mold from a water leak in the bathroom to be toxic mold. Again, do I need to worry about ALL mold? Not all mold gives off mycotoxins, right?
Does die-off from being on diflucan for yeast create mycotoxins in our bodies?
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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GiGi
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Oxygenbabe, do you still eat pistachios? I remember that vividly from some ten years ago.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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map1131
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Oxygen, I too a chemically sensitive. That's why I only use natural cleaning supplies. I don't pull out the bleach and then it's diluted with water but a few times a year.
Hopefully my shower problem is history or I'll get the sledge hammer out and go down to studs and replace them too. OMG, please don't want that $$$$$.
People look at me like I'm crazy when I say bleach is not my fix for surface shower mold. I'm not crazy....they do not know what they are doing to themselves?
I hate the cleaning isle in the grocery store. There are somethings in that isle that I need garbage bags, swifter duster refills. I get out asap.
I use fragrant free clothing soap. I know there is probab;y good non toxic stuff, I just don't want to spend extra money when baking soda and vinegar are so cheap.
I'm not spending money to see what I'm allergic to. My body tells me. It speaks, I listen. My supply closet holds disposable masks.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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oxygenbabe
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Member # 5831
posted
To the question as to whether you only need to worry about toxic mold, the hedged answer is yes, sort of.
Definitely, I can tell the difference, but I'm not sure everybody can, especially if they're still in a moldy environment. Different species give off toxins, stachybochtryos is worst, aspergillus can be bad, too. Bacteria have not even been looked at much except by Jack Thrasher, PhD. but he says they can give off toxic vocs, too, and are likely to be present in water damaged building materials.
Let's just say that a water damaged building, whether wall, subfloor, whatever, from a slow or obvious leak or water intrusion, will likely lead to toxic molds in a typical home, because of the materials used. However, do test. It's not always the case.
Also, it is well known that toxins from stachybochtryos persist for years, even if the active mold is dead, and the toxins are fairly deadly. In addition, spore fragments can be bothersome. So if somehow a water damaged area got mold, then dried up but still has dead mold discoloring it, I'd say that is not good.
Diflucan can help, or should, by suppressing your internal "mold" and yeast, you may become better able to handle external mold, and no, it wouldn't give you mycotoxins. You might have die-off but you can regulate the dose to tolerable. Just be aware that its only suppressive, so the yeast can come back when you go off it.
People can have mold and pollen allergies, for instance. Sometimes the toxic molds can exist outside in the soil in a certain area. Generally it is my belief that happens more often in areas that alternate between drought and rain. In more humid environs with lots of lush foliage, it is my belief and experience that the molds are generally in a balanced ecosystem. In harsher environments, more toxic ones thrive.
Gigi, I haven't eaten pistachios in a while and don't remember whatever I said about pistachios. Whatever happened to me in my toxic mold home though, was partly because my system was so upregulated and reactive. I remember thinking it was all lyme (and basically, I do think that mercury poisoning and a bad strain of lyme are at the root of my sensititivies). I would get these horrendous foot cramps in my apartment. Since myoclonus and cramping are common in lyme, I figured it was just my lyme. Haven't had one since I left. I get muscle weakness and fasciculations around toxic mold; thought it was all lyme. I can have serious breathing problems, agitated exhaustion, poor sleep. Thought THAT was all lyme. Etc etc.
Don't get me wrong though. I have no idea if I'd never been totally mercury poisoned by too many fillings, and then gotten a bad lyme tickbite, how my system would be and what it would be able to tolerate--maybe the molds would still have gotten me, and maybe not; or maybe not as badly.
Pam, it's the same with me. I am not where I want to be yet, and I wouldn't have thought I was going to take this route when I left. It's just that comparing how I feel with little to no exposures, I'd like to do it right, which is a long haul.
As to chemicals, I've written enough about them and their longterm deleterious effects. The problem is total load--there is so much, everywhere.
Personally, for me, someone drenched in fabric softener is really yuck. I just was at the ice machine at this hotel next to a guy who reeked. I don't know how people can walk around in that stuff...
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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seekhelp
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Member # 15067
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I just got my VIP test results today - one that Dr. S recommends in Surviving Mold. My number was non-existent. Apparently, I hardly make any VIP. Another sign of mold posioning perhaps? I'm waiting for HLA, C3a, C4a and MSH results. Why would I bet all those show a mold susceptibility pattern? My C4a was 12,000+ 1.5 yrs ago.
My VIP was under 10 and not even a number was shown. Labcorp's normal range starts at 23. Darn.
My doctor wants me to do the visual contrast test (VCT) online to see how I do.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekhelp
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I just took Dr. S' Visual Contrast Sensitivity (VCS) test online. Failed MISERABLY. I passed it borderline two years ago. Not good. So many of them just seemed empty. I don't know if the test is 100% legit, but it's consistent with my issues and eyesight problems. I know I'm very toxic. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
i don't post much.. But i wanted to jump in on this thread.
I have been sick for 4 years now with 24.7 neurological symptoms that are debiitaing. so I am home and mostly couch bound, although 2 of the 4 years i was comletely bedridden and unable to lift my head or even walk without assistance from my fiance.
This all started while living in a basement apartment which was poorly ventilated, damp and had flooded a few times and not properly taken care of.
I started having symptoms of severe anxiety where I could not leave the house, I even had to drop out of school. I then became pregnant and that is when full blown neurological symptoms started. I was bedridden from my 3rd trimester until August 2009. Still 4 years later I have the same 24.7 neuro symptoms
(severe and constant head and brain pressure, heavy cement head, off balance and veering, floor feeling uneven when I attempt to walk, pressure building up worse upon any exertion, walking is horrible because my perceptions of everything are off, and many other symptoms that are hard to describe)
I thought I had lyme.. no one knew what was wrong so i found an LLMD who diagonsed me with lyme through a positive IgG IgeneX WB.
I seen many top LLMD's who were unable to help and I did 7 months of abx (could not tolerate abx any longer and went to naturals)
I have been on some kind of treatment for 3 years with absoltely No help whatsoever.
I finally started seeing someone and she tested Shoemakers markers as she wasn't sure if lyme was my MAIN problem..
I have a C4a of 24,570, Low VIP, low MSH, HIGH MMP-9, HIGHLY positive VCS test, low VEGF, but the only thing is that my HLA does not show any of the HLA's that shoemakers sees.
my HLA is 1-5 and 17-2-52b which is not even on the Rosetta stone.. We thought for SURE I would have the "dreaded"
I am currently on CSM but it has not helped at all... So... This is puzzling, and very frustrating.
I have decided to see Shoemaker himself and hope he can figure it out.
I am getting an ERMI on my rental home.. and pray to God it tests ok because we have moved 5 times (sick everywhere wth symptoms not changing) we cannot afford to move again. We can BARELY afford the ERMI.
I have no clue what is going on, but i had a feeling all along that lyme was not my issue even when IgeneX and ART testing said it was.. nothing for lyme EVER helped, no abx, herbs, supps, energy medicine, acupuncture, ondamed, Chinese medicine, etc etc etc. the list goes on and on...
crazy this is...
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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seekhelp
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Member # 15067
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How disturbing as I completely relate to all the symptoms you quoted below. You're second paragraphs describes my issues eerily close. I'm seriously starting to believe I'm chasing the wrong thing.
Would you mind PMing me if you have any info on costs to see Dr. S the expert? I'm curious.
"I started having symptoms of severe anxiety where I could not leave the house, I even had to drop out of school.
Severe and constant head and brain pressure, heavy cement head, off balance and veering, floor feeling uneven when I attempt to walk, pressure building up worse upon any exertion, walking is horrible because my perceptions of everything are off, and many other symptoms that are hard to describe)"
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekhelp
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Member # 15067
posted
Unexpected, have you been evaluated for Arnold Chiari Malformation?
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I have bee evaluated for EVERYTHING! Every test known to man. I am surprised I have blood left....
Also so many radiological tests... I am surprised I am not glowing!
Dr. takes medicare if you have it, which i do.
I have those symptoms 24.7.. seriously never one second without feeling that way for 4 years straight... it is absolute HELL!
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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Tammy N.
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Member # 26835
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Dr. S - Initial Consult is $975. 1st follow-up (30 min.) by phone is $125. Then each phone follow-up (10 min.) is $30. If you choose to have 1st follow-up in person, it's $350.
Seek - I agree with you. I think this is a big monster we should be paying attention to. That's why I've been posting so much on other threads as well. Trying to yell it from the rooftops.
Posts: 2238 | From East Coast | Registered: Jul 2010
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Unexpected, did you take your belongings with you on each move? You can't do that if you lived in a really contaminated place, which it sounds like you did. You need to get rid of your clothing, upholstery, and any soft woods. A very hard glossy laminated wood, metal and glass can be kept. All the rest will be contaminated with toxins and spores and spore fragments and you will continue to react.
The inflammation levels in your body could be really high. What you, and maybe Seekhelp need to do is to completely get out of that environment for a while. See if you feel better. Don't keep re-exposing yourself. There is a fellow named Jonathan Wright who got mold poisoned and bedridden, he moved and took his stuff with him and remained sick. He didn't get well until he gave away everything and went camping in the wilderness for a year.
I'm not saying you have to camp in the wilderness (though we've been doing it). Think of the mold like radioactivity--like the Japan plant. Think of the toxicity that remains in contaminated items and only slowly degrades (cesium over hundreds of years). I'm just using that like an analogy.
I know Dr. S helps people but it is my personal experience all that money doesn't have to be spent, nor on remediation. First get out of the environment and get rid of everything; put what you're really attached to in storage and forget about it for a few years. Then go to a clear place. Once you're clear, then consider treatments that help. For me, IV therapy is so important (IV glutathione, meyers cocktails, and a small amount of IVIG). Hyperbaric oxygen can really help. Cholestyramine helps some, but nano chitosan from Allergy Research Group does the same thing.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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map1131
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Member # 2022
posted
Oxygen, know your total load? I'm sure you mean more testing on myself?
For 10 years now I've be cleaning up my life. I gave up cigs, artificial sweetners, cleaning supplies, teflon, deodorant, toxic folks, make-up except rarely, 10 teeth that were filled silver or had silver crowns that dated back to 1970, etc, etc.
I'm down to one root canal and one toothless quad that is no doubt a toxic wasteland in my mouth. Within a year this will be clean.
I'm going to do a major chelelation(sp) and get rid 53 yrs of toxic overload.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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We did get rid of probably 90% of our things. Even all of our daughters toys and everything.. It was heartbreaking. If We didn;t have a 4 year old and a teenager. We would go live outdoors no problem.. it becomes difficult when you have children. We did take some clothes but were washed before going into new apartment.
The last apartment we lived in we bought new bed, mattress, dressers, clothes, etc and keep it really simple. When we moved to this hosue last year we brought the couch frmo the last apartmet that was new and that last apartment did not have mold as far as we know.. we moved for differnet reasons.
I did bring books and pictures and important documents from hosue to hosue... I would never get rid of any of my pictures..my mother lost all my baby and childhood pictures and i have none so i wanted to make sure i always had my babies pictures.
I have only lived in this house for a year and still no change. We don't have any furniture or anything from the moldy hosue... except books and pictures (pictures are boxed up)
it doesn;t make sense that there would be cross contamination when we got rid of 90% of our things from the suspected moldy house. The things that were kept were washed... the only furniture piece that we kept was my vintage dresser but that was also cleaned.
This is all highly frustrating and downright depressing. I am missing out on my kids lives because of this.. spending the 4 years my daughter has been here in bed too sick to take care of her and my son not having a mother to take care of him at all..
I have missed everything, games, school events, outings, family celebrations, etc etc... I just want to know once and for all what the heck is wrong with me and fix it.. and that is not for lack of trying... I have bee to some 50 doctors over 4 years and have tried every treatment in the book.. nothing has helped.
hope this all made sense... I am confused.
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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Wow, this is very alarming, but I'm now wondering if this may be an issue for my dd.
This nightmare of Lyme first became evident a day after she came home with a throw pillow that was given to her from a friend. DD loved the wolf on it, so her friend gave it to her.
She had it in her bedroom. It smelled moldy, so I moved it out of her room. Found out a few days later that the pillow had been stored in the friend's basement. DD woke up the next day with her now-going-on-3-years-24/7-headache! I threw the pillow out the day I found out it had been stored in the basement.
Would she still have symptoms (if caused by mold from that pillow) after all these years?
Every day I log on here and there seems to be yet another issue to look into--it is never ending and incredibly frustrating.
I agree with those who have posted saying it is all so overwhelming--
Why do these infections (Lyme and co-infections)require so much more effort to "cure"?
There doesn't seem to be any other infections that require such complete remediation in all areas of one's life?
Really makes me wonder what is truly going on with these infections.............
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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Tammy N.
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Member # 26835
posted
If she has the genetic issue in that her body cannot process the toxins from mold, then yes, that could have been the trigger for the cascading poor health. Removal from the exposure is not enough for those with the genetic issue. Certain and specific interventions are necessary. Definitely search further into this mold/biotoxin issue; start with survivingmold.com. I would also recommend getting the book.
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