Topic: VERY GOOD detailed ABX stats on all morphs of Bb- research publication
Dawn in VA
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posted
Evaluation of in-vitro antibiotic susceptibility of different morphological forms of Borrelia burgdorferi Sapi E, Kaur N, Anyanwu S, Luecke DF, Datar A, Patel S, Rossi M, Stricker RB Infection and Drug Resistance, May 2011, Volume 4, pp. 97 - 113.
posted
This makes me feel REALLY GOOD about my LLMD suggesting Tindamax (tinidazole) after I'm done with the Rifampin!!
little olive
-------------------- Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08 IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++ IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations Posts: 512 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2010
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Hambone
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What form of Lyme does Zithromax hit?
I'm on that and Doxy.
According to this, the Doxy is getting the spirochetes but increasing the round form.
Please say Zith hits the round form.
Thanks for sharing this. I wonder if my LLMD has seen this.
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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Hambone
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Whoops. Just went back and re-read.
I see they say that round bodies are cysts.
Sooooo.....is this saying Doxy makes the spriochetes turn into cysts?
And Zith doesn't touch that, does it.
I haven't been on any cyst busters yet. Doc thinks I'm not physically ready for that assault.
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
I am on Doxy and Zith as well...this makes me wonder...always something new to question.
Posts: 222 | From NH | Registered: Mar 2011
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Dawn in VA
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Zith (and Biaxin, another macrolide) hit the cell wall-deficient form of Bb.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
That confuses me, because I do not understand being on Doxy AND Zithro at the same time. They do the same thing, and treat the same infections??? They both stop things from replicating, but don't kill. If they just stop it from replicating then the bugs will just change into a form that it CAN replicate in, which may be why it turns into the round forms/cysts (and eventually the biofilms if that's what it takes to survive.)
Being on a bacterioCIDAL antibiotic (one that kills) along with the Doxy or Zithro (that stop it from replicating), seems like it'd help prevent this converstion, but I don't have any proof.
I'm on Rifampin for the cyst form of Lyme + bartonella, and Zithro for the other form of Lyme + Mycoplasma, myself.
-------------------- Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08 IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++ IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations Posts: 512 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2010
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Bluemoon
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posted
Interesting information, but remember this is an in-vitro study, so whether it works the same in the body is unknown.
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posted
So should I shelf my doxycycline?
Posts: 9 | From California | Registered: Apr 2010
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Dawn in VA
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posted
It is very excellent, and from what I've been following about Prof. Sapi, most likely quite accurate info (IMO).
***Once again, only IMO, combination treatment to target ALL morph forms is what I feel is apropos, if the patient can handle it, when it comes to "conventional/standardized/pharma treatment plans Go after them all.***
("Standardized" to contrast other TXs like herbals, Salt/C, rife, etc... I just frankly do not have that kind of background or experience to comment on them, though hopefully studies like this on those will come out as well. The more info, the better, on all points!***)
Bluemoon did bring up a point, so folks, before tossing or shelving your meds, remember what he/she stated- this study was done in-vitro. (Though I hope an in-vivo study involving real live humans is not far behind!).
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dawn in VA
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Olive, macrolides are reportedly (ie according to some of our good docs and research) bacteriocidal, not just -static, if given in proper (high enough) doses.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Lymeorsomething
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Yeah, the work UNH does is often underestimated but I think they are finally gaining some momentum.
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Thanks Dawn, that makes more sense if it were true, but how on earth does an antibiotic change how it works just based upon the dosage? I know they can go different places based upon the dosage, but aren't they formulated to work on particular pathways? I need to look that up one day
and no "i will survive" I would not shelf your doxy, esp if you have coinfections. Its an amazing drug, brought me out of being bedbound. think this research just says that, it's probably not enough on its own (particularly for chronic lyme).
little olive
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Razzle
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quote:Originally posted by little_olive: ...how on earth does an antibiotic change how it works just based upon the dosage? I know they can go different places based upon the dosage, but aren't they formulated to work on particular pathways?
My understanding is that it depends on the concentration of abx in the blood/tissues. If a low concentration is present, then the action is more bacteriostatic. It becomes bacteriocidal when the concentration gets higher. I think this is why some LLMD's prefer high doses of certain abx.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4167 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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posted
Innnnteresting. I did a quick search on Wiki (because we all know how RELIABLE wiki is haha ) and it says this:
quote:Bacteriostatic antibiotics inhibit growth and reproduction of bacteria without killing them; killing is done by bactericidal agents. Bacteriostatic agents must work with the immune system to remove the microorganisms from the body.
However, there is not always a precise distinction between them and bactericides; high concentrations of some bacteriostatic agents are also bactericidal, whereas low concentrations of some bacteriocidal agents are bacteriostatic.
BackinStOlaf
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posted
Ok, so what does this mean. Nothing will cure us I guess since the abx don't work.
The question is: how do we get rid of the biolfilms??
-------------------- First Symptom 9/09 Multiple docs, negative Labcorp test LLMD: 1/10 Positive Igenex/CDC test Treatment 2/10 2/10-8/10 Amox, ceftin, zith, flagyl Currently: Bicillin, Minocycline, still dealing with severe breathing issues
Posts: 1121 | From New York, New York | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
That's why low dose doxy will not kill the keets. (200mg per day)
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Dawn in VA
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...and also why Plaquenil and other "blood concentration-uppers" are sometimes used by docs.
(I've never taken any of them myself, but others may chime in here with success stories w/them.)
Plus, don't forget about that ever-amusing blood-brain-barrier crossover business! Oy.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Hambone
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Here's another conundrum I have with Doxy.
I have to eat A LOT of food with it or I will throw up.
Then I read it is better absorbed without food.
So now I wonder how much is being absorbed since I need it with food. I'm probably not even making a dent in this infection.
Posts: 1142 | From South | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
I ate with it every day and still herxed like the devil on my 200mg twice daily.
-------------------- Myalgic encephalomyelitis, 2002 | Viral onset, following Hep B vaccine Lyme since '06 | Bartonella since '08 (cured) | Mycoplasma pneumoniae since '08 IGeneX: IgM 31IND 34IND 41+ | IgG 39IND 58+ 41+++ IgG deficiencies and MTHFR 677TT mutations Posts: 512 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2010
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Dawn in VA
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Hambone, hubby's (and I imagine others') experience was the same. I thought it was better absorbed with food- but NOT w/in 2 hours of any dairy products. Also, avoid laying down 1/2 afterwards to protect your esophagus from burns.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I'm feeling good on zith only but I have a stockpile of Tinidazole. Maybe I should start to take it.
Posts: 239 | From NC | Registered: Aug 2010
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bcb1200
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Wow..I'm really surprised at the reactions here.
No..you should not scrap your doxy or your macrolides. Doxy is a great drug...but as this data shows it needs to be given with Flagyl or (even better) Tindamax.
Doxy and Flagyl got me out of bed and healed my brain. Biaxin / Amantadine / Flagyl gave me another boost. I'm now on Minocycline / Tindamax.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3139 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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posted
So what's the deal with Dove Press? It doesn't seem to be a typical peer-reviewed journal and has a different publishing model.
What I am not sure about is whether papers published in this format will carry the same weight in the scientific community? Should I care?
Once a paper is accepted, then the author 'pays to publish' (like a vanity press?) - but the flip side is that all papers are available free to anyone who wants to access them.
Just wondering... I'm a skeptic at heart. racer
-------------------- Me - Igenex: IgM: 41IND, IgG: 39IND, 41+ but Plasmid PCR Positive Kiddo - after 1 year IV - positive Lyme culture (before IV: IgM:31,34,41,83-93 IND; IgG: 41+++, 66+) Posts: 133 | From CT | Registered: Feb 2011
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beths
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There was another article-can't find it now, that said banderol and samento can treat biofilms
Posts: 1276 | From maryland | Registered: Jan 2009
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lululymemom
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Yes, that was from the Bio-Resources Conference where it stated Banderol and Samento address the biofilm issue.
I believe this study explains why abx fail.
You can bring down the bacterial load but you will not completely kill them all. That is why maintenance is key. Do not wait until you are symptom free for 2 months. You will be on abx forever.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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BackinStOlaf
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If we have to be on abx forever, does that mean we have to see our LLMD's forever too? Sounds like an expensive way to live!
-------------------- First Symptom 9/09 Multiple docs, negative Labcorp test LLMD: 1/10 Positive Igenex/CDC test Treatment 2/10 2/10-8/10 Amox, ceftin, zith, flagyl Currently: Bicillin, Minocycline, still dealing with severe breathing issues
Posts: 1121 | From New York, New York | Registered: Dec 2009
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