posted
OK, I get it, so you're supposed to heal the leaky gut before you attempt to detox metals.
So you go out and buy a month's worth of supplements to heal the leaky gut, such as Aloe juice, DGL tablets, Seagest or Seacure caps, Omegas 3, 6, & 9, Gamma Oryzinol, probiotics with FOS, etc. and you try to avoid the foods make you react. You take this stuff and in two weeks to a month, your gut will heal (supposedly).
But isn't it the toxic budy burden, candida, parasites, and borrelia that caused the leaky gut in the first place? Won't the leaky gut come back once you stop taking the supplements?
To have to buy gut healing supplments AND the heavy metal detox products, not to mention KPU products and take them all at the same time is not affordable.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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It took me MUCH longer than a month to heal my leaky gut. I also had to work on infections and parasites that caused the leaky gut, because, yes, if the cause is still there it will come back.
Healing my leaky gut took a year or more AFTER I was finished with Lyme treatment.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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chiquita incognita
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quote: "But isn't it the toxic budy burden, candida, parasites, and borrelia that caused the leaky gut in the first place? Won't the leaky gut come back once you stop taking the supplements?"
Dr Leo Galland has an excellent article about Leaky Gut and the causes (more comprehensive than I have seen even compared to other doc's articles) and this can give you some clues. It's written in medical terminology though so it's not an easy read, but if you skim through it you can figure out what the causes are because those should be mostly in plain English www.healthy.net search for "Leaky Gut Syndrome: Breaking the Vicious Cycle" really an excellent article. Note that he says to chew the food very thoroughly because peptides (proteins) in saliva aid gut wound repair, plus this makes digestion easier...
Based on that article and other sources I have read, there are many causes for leaky gut. Food allergies is only one of them. You are right, Candida is a prime cause because of the rhizomes it implants in the gut lining. Parasites, I would surely think so. So to merely take supplements to assist gut lining integrity is not the sole answer if you have Candida, parasites, or other causes (See the article by Dr Galland). Right you are, Chaps.
If it was me, I would take care of the Candida, parasites/other causes first if present. Then address gut lining integrity as follow-up. But the true treatment plan should come from your doctor, to address any unique medical concerns of your own, this is merely an opinion of a layperson thinking out loud and not medical advice, ask your doc about this....
Calendula (marigold) is an herb which has allantoins, which support wound healing, yet also are "markedly anti-fungal" see www.healthy.net so this would serve a dual purpose here, supporting the gut lining and addressing Candida (alongside other supportive herbs. They work best in clusters, not solo according to most studies).
People who are allergic to members of the aster family (Chamomile, feverfew et al) may be allergic to calendula. This is unusual in most cases but it can happen. In that case usually mouth blisters or sores. Most people tolerate those herbs without any problem. If it doesn't agree with you, you can discontinue it at any time without any problem.
Aloe is an excellent allantoin source and also has anti-fungal action. Caution: It can cause bowel dependence (affecting evacuation) and it's important to only take it for short periods of time, then take time off, at no particular intervals to avoid the body becoming acclimated to the scheduled intervals. Keep it irregular and use only for short periods of time. Can be very helpful for many people given its allantoins and bile-moving benefits.
See Dr Galland's article, some medications (including abx) can cause leaky gut too. For myself, I would be taking marshmallow root and/or meadowsweet herb (purchase in bulk at Star West Botanicals) for mucillage. This is a gel-like constituent in the herbs which shield and soothe gut linings and a few other organs. Note that the phytotherapy authority on healthy.net says to take marshmallow several hours apart from medications to avoid a "theoretical" interaction with mainstream drug absorption. Always double-check interactions with your doc, as well as any herbs or supplements you take....
Leaky Gut Syndrome (booklet) by Elizabeth Lipski CCN MS this is excellent and in very lay-friendly language, costs about $6 and will empower every reader with lots of knowledge to ask detailed, health-supporting questions of their doc.
Info about herbs detailing their constituents, studies et al: Potters Herbal Cyclopedia by E Williamson
Drug herb interaction (be sure to show it to your doc and ask questions, never self-treat) Herb, Nutrient and Drug Interactions by Stargrove-Treasure-McKee has been praised by an NIH researcher for being objective and thorough lots of medical terminology
Pocket Guide to Herbal Medicine briefly mentions drug-herb interactions and is written by highly trustworthy sources, is lay-friendly reading
Best wishes, CI
The above information has not been evaluated by the FDA and products above are not intended to diagnose, cure or prevent any disease.
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chiquita incognita
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PS for me it took very little time to heal my gut lining. Really less than a month and the symptoms (not from lyme) had dramatically improved (based on gluten avoidance alone, no supplements taken) but I am strongly allergic to gluten and not everybody is....
posted
Gluten is a good point, chiquita. I was gluten free for two years because it made me very ill, but my gut still did not heal. It's different for everyone. That also makes the point that you removed the source of the leaky gut and it got better quickly.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Razzle
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So then the order should be something like this:
1. Treat the cause of the leaky gut (i.e., Lyme, parasites, etc.). 2. Then treat the leaky gut (gastrointestinal mucosal healing takes at least 6-8 weeks). 3. Then detox the metals.
No point wasting $$$ on steps 2 & 3 if step 1 hasn't been accomplished, or at least significant progress made towards the goal of no more symptoms from Lyme/coinfections/parasites/etc.
I also think that bile salt/acid binders taken while treating Lyme/coinfections may help keep the toxins from re-absorbing through the leaky gut...
Take care,
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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Hi Razzle et al
I am not an expert here and it must be kept in mind that this is a brainstorm by a layperson, check this out wiht a doctor.
That said, based on what I have been reading there is a balance point to bile salts et al. Too little bile= digestion difficulties, and difficulties with breaking down fats and cholesterol. Excess bile= hyperacidity in the gut.
Further, according to Dr Galland's article which I mentioned above, in leaky gut the bile becomes toxic. This can reflux back into the gallbladder and cause gallstones, liver and gallbladder cancer, etc and also it can affect the pancreas too and cause diabetes (see Dr Galland's article, the only one I have seen that mentions this).
Given that, excess bile may not be a good idea. Again I don't know for sure what the orally-taken impacts would be and to ask a doctor is the thing to do. Based on what Dr Galland says above, I would wonder and want to at least check into it. I could see where oral administration coudl go either way, positive or negative....probably depends very much on each individual case and unique considerations to the individual, our balance of digestive secretions, etc....
Again everything in moderation, that is something I have learned about health as I am reading. There is a balance to everything....
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Razzle
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It is my understanding that all the bile salt binders do is prevent bile re-absorption. The reason this helps with detox is that bile contains stuff the liver has "dumped" (i.e., detoxed) out of the bloodstream and thus it becomes a mix of bile and toxins. If the gut is leaky, then these toxins can more easily be reabsorbed along with the bile in the terminal ileum (last part of the small intestine just before it connects to the large intestine).
So I don't know if the bile salt binders would have any impact on the acidity of the bile or not....better question for someone with a lot more knowledge of all this stuff than little ol' me, LOL!
Yes, I agree one needs to have their treatment protocol customized to their unique situation....that is extremely important because we are all unique, even though we all have Lyme/related issues.
And as always, one should never change anything without taking with their doctors/health care team first...
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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AH hah, so here we go again, instead of having a logical progression of steps to take, we have another conundrum.
Razzle took a stab at coming up with a progression, but it seems to be flawed by putting metals last.
It says get rid of the causes of leaky gut first.
I've been told that one of the causes of leaky gut is toxic body burden caused by heavy metals or other toxins that a person might become exposed to over the course of his/her life.
In my case, it's mercury from amalgam fillings. I just had all my amalgams removed. But CI and GiGi have said that you shouldn't try to detox mercury if you have a leaky gut, you must heal it first.
Well how in the world can you heal leaky gut before you detox mercury when the mercury body burden is what's causing the leaky gut?
Another cause of leaky gut is borrelia. And I think that anyone who has been researching recovery from Lyme for any length of time knows that the chances of recovering from Lyme are severely diminished if you've got mercury or other heavy metals.
So you've got to get rid of the mercury first. Oh wait, you shouldn't get rid of the mercury until you've healed the leaky gut! No wait, you can't get rid of the leaky gut until you get rid of the mercury or the borrelia first.
Another famous quote from the above posts on this thread: "check with your doctor."ROFL!!
You all crack me up! Listen, there are only a few doctors in the country, (one in NY, one in CT, one in Baltimore, and one in Seattle) whom I would trust with my treatment. To start they are at least 1200 miles from where I live, and secondly, I can not afford them. My insurance won't pay for their treatments.
So like so many people with this dreaded disease (which the IDSA says doesn't exist) I am on my own, folks. Up the creek without a paddle, trying to find a paint mixer or piece of wood on the floor of the boat to paddle with, or maybe just resorting to use my hands.
And as far as the doctor I go to for support around here: it is I who is educating HIM about Lyme disease.
Have you ever mentioned LEAKY GUT to a medical doctor!
I went to an office that claims to be "Digestive Disease Experts." They've never heard of Leaky Gut Syndrome. They have no idea what it is and had no interest in learning.
Furthermore, I spent close to $300 sending my turds to a place in Arizona that's supposed to specialize in "parasitology." The report showed only a score of 1 (on a scale of 1 to 4) of dividing candida. Other than that, it only indicated undigested tissue and some normal bacteria. The flunky "digestive disease consultant" to whom I had the results sent said, "looks like you don't have a problem. You might want to take some digestive enzymes for the undigested tissue." Brilliant! He didn't say anything about HCL. I tell ya folks, with the kind of doctors there are down here, I'm just as well off going it alone.
And I know damn well that I've got parasites. I took Humaworm and was blowing them out of my nose for God's sake.
I bought and read Elizabeth Lipski's book. I also bought the supplements that are recommended in the book to take. That's not the problem.
The question is, is it even possible to heal the leaky gut while you've got mercury and borrelia going on?
I've talked to a number of people about safe (non-drug) methods of chelation. No one has mentioned the need to heal the leaky gut first. Lymenet is the only place where I've heard such a thing.
Where did this "heal the leaky gut first" concept originate? Is it Dr. K who says this?
If that's the case, then I'd really like to know what he says about HOW to accomplish healing the leaky gut when you've got metals and borrelia. I'd like to know what HE recommends as a logical order of steps.
I don't mean to challenge or criticize anything that anyone has said here. It's just that I'm very frustrated trying to put all of the pieces together and it's very common that I encounter contradictions that throw me into an endless loop.
Since Six healed the gut after getting rid of metals and borrelia and survived, I'm inclined to think that's the way to go. I've been working on parasites and I think it's possible to continue battling those while chelating and fighting borrelia and co's.
With what it costs to buy these supplements, I have to buy wisely and make it count. I can't afford to go spraying money all over the place and be spinning my wheels due to a flawed strategy.
Again, I appreciate everyone's input and I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining when people are trying to help out of the good of their hearts. It's just that I'm trying to come up with a progression of steps and I keep encountering these roadblocks in logic.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
I did heal it after, but I constantly worked on it during. I had to take massive probiotics, but it was ongoing, I never saw the end of it until after treatment.
I took the probiotics while I treated for parasites and while I treated for Lyme & co., I just didn't see the end of treating the leaky gut until I was better.
I still take Thorne Bio-Gest to help with digestion and my low stomach acid. I think this will be ongoing. I've read that as you age you can get lower stomach acid, so I have no reason to think I'll ever get off this supplement, but really, in the whole grand scheme of things, it's not much to have to take something to help digestion.
I had my amalgams out in 1991, so that wasn't part of the picture for me this go 'round.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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chiquita incognita
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Chaps, I can understand the frustration very, very well.
It's hard to say for sure because I am not a doctor and don't know all the ins and outs of your situation.
So long as there are no parasites or Candida directly rupturing hte integrity of the gut lining, I would myself be inclined to heal up the gut lining first even in presence of Bb or metals.
The reason why is that as you pull the metals out of the cells---and these can cause nerve and immune system damage unless properly detoxified----then the leaky gut will allow those metals to float around your blood to every cell in your body.
NOt at all a funny situation.
Metals are noxious and need to be treated very carefully. It's not a coincidence that alternative medicine docs prepare the body at length before doing any heavy metal cleansing.
I would be ill advised to advise anyone, because in fact I can only give information, not advice. For my own self, yes I would be building up the gut lining first before detoxing heavy metals, you had darned well better believe it. Hear the fervor in my wording here?
But again if there is Candida or there are parasites, or other things affecting gut lining integrity, then it doesn't make sense. Those would need to be taken care of first, then build up the gut lining.
I would ask an ND about the treatment plan, please don't take this as advice, only info. No mainstream MD's are not familiar with leaky gut, agreed, unless they are integrative by practice. Some integrative MDs might be very on top of this. An ND could help you www.naturopathic.org
I would *think* the gut lining could be repaired with Bb and metals present so long as you a) avoid food allergens, Dr Galland writes that food allergies are the prime cause of leaky gut b) use the supplements c) chew your food very thoroughly as above, Dr Galland says the peptides in saliva aid gut lining wound repair.
I qualify that I would "think" so because I am not a doc and can't say for sure. This is not medical advice, just conjecture.
Ask an ND about this.
Best, CI ps I did not detoxify the metals after my amalgams were removed, and still my gut healed. As a matter of fact i still had the amalgams in my mouth when I got off gluten and my gut still healed. If that's any hope at all...
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Chaps I assume you have been tested and diagnosed with leaky gut?
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
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Razzle
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quote: I would *think* the gut lining could be repaired with Bb and metals present so long as you a) avoid food allergens, Dr Galland writes that food allergies are the prime cause of leaky gut b) use the supplements c) chew your food very thoroughly as above, Dr Galland says the peptides in saliva aid gut lining wound repair.
So what does one do if they are allergic to all foods?
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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posted
I have read that antibiotics can be a cause of leaky gut so how can those of us on abx heal our guts if we are constantly on abx?
So not sure what you do about that if antibiotics are contributing to the problem.
-------------------- Sick since 10/2001. Tested CDC positive for Lyme 10/2008 through Quest and Igenex. Started treatment 1/2009 with LLMD. Lyme, Erichilosis, Chlamydophila Pneumoniae, Q Fever, Strep Syndrome and probably a few others I am forgetting. Posts: 451 | From Virginia | Registered: Feb 2009
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Razzle, I've heard in that sitch to go to an amino acid based formula. Mix with water only. You can use this in addition to food or completely instead of food.
Pam08, my practioner has me taking Thorne Crucera 2x in morning and 2x in evening. It is supposed to (help) compensate for the fact that Doxy is tearing up my GI tract. Also, I'm on an anti-fungal and heavy pro-biotics so that yeast and bad bacteria can't do additional damage.
-------------------- Garden
"Fibromylagia" for 8+ years Pos IgeneX WB per both Igenex and CDC Pos Neuroscience MyLymeImmuneID Started tx for Lyme in March 2011 Posts: 245 | From East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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lymie_in_md
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Remember the point we should all consider with health is to listen to our bodies. I was gluten intolerant, I would get excesive gas and bloating discomfort and the follow-up issues from the fermentation into the rest of the body (added alcohol, molecules which the body became sensitive too).
If you are listening to the body, try some glutenous item. If you still react to it, your gut isn't fully healed. The gut wall should be thick enough to ensure you don't have sensitivity.
So gluten in itself is a great test for how well the gut is repaired.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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chiquita incognita
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Pam, Garden et al Another thought that occurs to me regarding abx and protecting the gut, in addition to using pbx, is also to use certain high mucillage herbs. I have found these herbs to be very soothing to me anytime I have gut irritation of any kind going on.
Mucillage is a gel like constituent in herbs that has soothing anti-inflammatory action. Potters Herbal Cyclopedia says marshmallow root has more than 80% mucillage and is the highest source.
Another herb that occurs in this context is called Meadowsweet. Very hard to find, get in bulk at Star West Botanicals in CA they check for heavy metals, are organic et al....
MEadowsweet is the herb from which aspirin used to be made. You would think the salycins in the herb would irritate the gut as the isolated chemical does, but in the context of the whole herb, it doesn't at all. The reason is that it also has lots of mucillage which coats the gut lining.
So you get the soothing action of mucillage plus the anti-inflammatory action of the salycins.
The upshot: The herb is used for ulcer support.
Something I might consider pairing up wtih marshmallow root, fenugreek, flax seeds et al to make a mucillage tea, drink this several hours after abx intake (marshmallow may possibly interfere with drug absorption on account of high mucillages, writes the phytotherapist on www.healthy.net and he is one of the authorities in this field). Drink this maybe three hours apart from abx or other drug intake and combined with probiotics, it should help.
I never would guarantee that the abx won't do gut lining damage even with other interventions, but to do extra precautions I also think is wise.
This is information only not medical advice. CHekc this out wiht your doctor.
Razzle
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lymie_in_md
Gluten actually causes leaky gut in everyone, but it only lasts a long time in those whose Celiac or Gluten Sensitivity genes have been activated. Lyme is known to activate these genes.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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WOW...we all are going in blinking circles here ! I sympathize with
Chaps 100 % since this is also where I am stuck @ the moment...
what the heck to start with ?! I have to say though Chaps...you
elicited a few hearty LOL's from me in your writing style...kudos !
I think all have valid viewpoints and thanks for sharing them...but it
is an individual undertaking as each of us are unique in our bio-
chemistries and places of healing etc...having a good doc to
guide you would be the best route agreed...but if not...what to
do ?! I just had an experience with a highly recommended ND
who was mostly right on but when not...ohhhhh boy...a bad
scene for me as I couldn't tolerate the treatment and now have
been recovering from a too fast detox which left me worse off
than when I started ! So who do you trust your body to ?! We are
all only human and no one person knows all the answers ,
especially with lyme co... I say don't follow blindly what anyone
tells you to do...do the research yourself...and most
importantly...listen to your own body ! Our bodies have the built
in ability to heal if we let them...I don't have any specific notions
of the chicken and egg story here...my inner jury is still out on
that and searching along with Chaps...but I do think we can and
should trust our bodies to help guide us through...if we try a
detox and it affects us in a horrible way then we back off and try
sthg else...I don't believe that a severe herx is a good thing...to
me...it is the body screaming " stop , you are overtaxing my
ability to deal ! " ... heal and nourish and provide support
whatever the protocol and listen and respond...Chaps you can
request the expiration date of anything you order and so keep it
for future attempts if the time is not right ...no wasting $$$
there...
-------------------- "Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues , but the parent of all others "....Cicero Posts: 254 | From new jersey | Registered: Jul 2009
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lymie_in_md
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Razzle -- I believe from what I've read, leaky gut is a thinning of the intestinal tract and that is what causes leaky gut. When we eat something such as gluten the gluten leaks from the gut and cause an immune response. In a normal gut where the intestinal tract doesn't have holes in it, the gluten harmlessly flows through the intestines. Most people with a normal intestinal tract don't have any issues with gluten nor do they have symptoms.
Pathogens mostly cause leaky gut, such as candida when it becomes the yeast form. This yeast form changes the thickness of the intestinal tract when it overgrows. So again, I don't believe gluten cause leaky gut, just the immune response which then causes inflammation.
Now as a diagnostic if you eat something glutenous and you have no reaction, chance are there are no holes in your intestinal tract. However if you do have reaction, you still have work to do. And that was my point.
I can eat what I want without reaction any longer, which wasn't the case a few years ago. That is why I know the difference.
An excellent mucillengentic breakfast, oatmeal, 1/2 teaspoons ground cinnamon, 1/2 tsp ground slippery elm, and 1/2 tsp ground cloves then 1 tablespoon freshly ground flaxseed, ground in either herb or coffee grinder -- add plain yogurt (a dairy alternative : coconut milk / rice milk) and real vanilla extract. Your food becomes your medicine.
I prefer yogurt, because it is cultured and it is naturally processed especially if you make your own.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Tammy N.
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Chaps you make me Laugh Out Loud also. I know you are not trying to be funny, but, for me, it helps to laugh along the way..... And I'm always on the same page as you in searching for answers.
A thought..... Dr. K is a big proponent of chlorella. So until you (we) figure out the leaky gut stuff, at least start taking chlorella (about 15 tablets 20-30 minutes before eating). It's a super food (yay!), and it binds the metals so they can be excreted. The reason for taking about 20-30 minutes before eating is so that it is in the right place when the liver squirts the bile, so it can bind to the junk and then be excreted.
When I have my phone consult with Seattle next week, I will let you know what they say about leaky gut. It's on my list of questions.
Best always, Tammy Posts: 2238 | From East Coast | Registered: Jul 2010
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Razzle
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No, I'm talking about gluten exposure in every human being.
"biopsies from non-celiac patients demonstrated a limited, transient zonulin release which was paralleled by an increase in intestinal permeability that never reached the level of permeability seen in celiac disease (CD) tissues...Based on our results, we concluded that gliadin activates zonulin signaling irrespective of the genetic expression of autoimmunity, leading to increased intestinal permeability to macromolecules."
posted
Razzle Maybe I am missing something. The study shows an increase in permeability in celiac patients as opposed to non-celiacs, but I do not see how that shows gluten is causitive. Can it be the case that celiac disease is damaged wall permeability to begin with by a cause other than gluten? All I see in the study is that there is a diff4ence in the permeability with celiacs and non-celiacs, but I do not see evidence that gluten " causes" permeability
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
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GiGi
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Getting rid of Leaky Gut means to get rid of all allergies. It took me years to figure this out, but the only way I found is Allergie Immun that does that beautifully, including the miserable grain allergies, celiac, etc. and a lot more.
It's been my mantra for a couple of years here and people choose to ignore it. There are different types of allergies, i.e. there is an emotional allergy toward any substance; there is a biological consequence allergy. There are errors in the DNA, aka dysregulations, some we inherit, some we acquire during life.
Read the thread, or parts of it if it bores you reading several thousand posts, called Allergie Immun Germany. It's been running here for a couple of years.
I have not found a better way to eliminate allergies once and for all permanently. I didn 't realize how much toxin I had left in my body until I did AI. 15 drops of informed water for two weeks will get rid of the grains, metals, fungi/mucor and a bunch more. The rest is treated in subsequent months in the same manner, until no other errors are found any longer. If you are very toxic and very sick, it takes quite a while to finish.
Please research it - life is a lot easier without errors in the DNA.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Razzle
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So what the study is showing is that gliadin (which is a part of gluten) triggers the release of zonulan, which is the key that makes the spaces between cells in the intestinal barrier "leaky."
This zonulan release happens in all the biopsies studied, not just the biopsies from those with Celiac Disease. The more zonulan that gets released, the leakier the gut becomes. And the zonulan release is greatest in those with Celiac Disease.
It is thought that the leaky gut triggered by gluten in healthy individuals (i.e., no Celiac, Gluten Sensitivity, wheat allergy or other autoimmune disease) is of much shorter duration than it is in those with Celiac, non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity, and autoimmune disorders, but it still occurs and therefore still compromises the protective barrier (lining) inside the gastrointestinal tract.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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lymie_in_md
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Razzle -- It's great to play ping pong on this very complicated issues. The issue we all seem to have a hand to play in using long term ABX. And I don't have handle on that, I only used ABX for about 60 days in a row not years.
It basically says there is pathogenic relationship to the issues between Zot and zonulin.
So from the article -- is it pathogenic (noting C diff specifically) and it causes the issue or is it long term use of glutenous foods? Or is it hybrid? Or is it the terrain affected by ph changes which activate certain epigenitic expressions in genes or is it the genes being affected by the pathogens genes? There are certainly a good number of questions.
We have to be careful of researchers too or clubs of folks pushing one thing or another. There are agendas all over the place and those pushing agendas.
I believe I've rebuilt my gut function to operate without symptoms. I'm also certain it isn't the same gut I had in my twenties. Its bigger now.
What happens if I have two slices of wheat bread. Today nothing, no bloating, no gas pains, no diarhea, and if you asked me what I did. I can't be sure what magical incantation, worked. Or was it moving a rock and it took two years to get to where it should be. I just think my gut is working normally and it was far from normal from 2006 to 2008 and half.
I never suggest gluten as a good idea. But one thing that gets lost with gluten. When bread was made when I grew up, it wasn't bromanated it had iodide instead. Might Iodide be protective of the body from gluten just like it is with goitrogens?
posted
i didn't have the patience to read through ALL of these posts so I apologize if i missed something.
I don't agree with the statement "gluten causes leaky gut". Perhaps that might be true with someone who has Celiac? or the gene that causes it? I am not sure, but I was under the impression that gluten sensitivity is formed DUE TO leaky gut.
For example, in my case, I can eat gluten w/o having any serious reaction, really no reaction at all. Yet, via a stool test finding, i have antibodies formed against gluten...so my immune system is identifying gluten as an invader (along with dairy, eggs, and soy)
None of these foods cause me to feel ill if i eat them (which makes it harder to justify staying away from them) I don't know what that means for my gut, I assume it's leaky but you would think i'd have more of a reaction from these foods.
My LLND had me do a gut clean up to address trichinella infection and H.Pylori infection, after...gut healing. I wasn't responding all that great to lyme treatment and this could've been why. My gut just wasn't functioning well so how could it possibly get rid of waste and toxins and dead bacteria?
Also, on a metal's note', I had 1 amalgam replaced while i was running a small temp that landed me in the ER with a 105 fever 6 hours later and crushing chest pain. I now believe metals are no joke! Don't know if this happened because of LG, I've had metal replaced before w/o that kind of reaction.
in the end, I agree with Six in that it's important to address your gut DURING treatments, as well as at the end when you start feeling better. My doctor puts me through a month of big pharma treatment then gives me a break. She also alternates pharm combos with natural therapies to make sure my body has time to recover from the drugs themselves.
I also agree with Karensky in that we have to listen to our own bodies, and respond as best we know how after doing our own research. For me, it seems best to alternate between heavy hitting drug combos, which can get bacteria loads down a lot faster than herbs, with alternative therapies. In the long run natural therapies are less aggressive against your body. I think chaps you are wise to be strategic in your treatment approach. I used to live in Florida, i can imagine the lack of knowledge you come across in the doctor arena. Frustrating.
I've, too, gotten lost in the abyss of "things to do, things not to do". I love Lymenet, this has been a source of support and information and I am grateful to have it at my fingertips. but i often limit my time on it because I get confused too easily when listening to others. It's good to know when you have heard enough different point-of-views to make an educated decision for yourself and your course of treatment!
Hoping you find what works for you Chaps Hoping we all do.
Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
Thanks for the links.
Yeah, it likely is more complicated - you are correct. Especially given that not everyone with known Celiac genes (HLA-DQ2, HLA-DQ8) gets Celiac, and also not everyone with a Celiac diagnosis has a known Celiac gene. And I have read things that suggest infectious diseases (esp. those which impact the gut, such as food poisoning, etc.) may contribute to the development of Celiac.
But I have to wonder what the zonulin results would be if the non-Celiac tissue samples were exposed repeatedly to gluten and not just once.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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lymie_in_md
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Member # 14197
posted
It's great to have a debate about what we think we know based on what we've read or experienced. Leaky gut is a complicated problem and without really understanding the problem you have to guess at the treatment. I tip my hat to the LLMDs and LLNDs who take these types of problems on and supplying treatment.
As far as leaky gut or any chronic issue, I sit here distrusting what I think I know, I think we all do. But the positive side, it gives you something to search for and the search is having positive discoveries such as the role of zonulin. Thats whats great about debating issues, it helps us to think. There are puzzle pieces of the problem out there and I think their close to being solved.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lymie_in_md: When bread was made when I grew up, it wasn't bromanated it had iodide instead.
Bromine is used in hot tubs as chlorine is used in pools. I can only imagine what bromine does to our intestinal flora if it's meant to kill bacteria in hot tubs!
Imbalanced flora is a cause of leaky gut.
I buy Pepperidge Farm bread for my kids. They use unbromated flour. Does anyone know whether they can bromate organic bread?
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
Thanks Bob! and for everybody here: Yes I agree and it's great to pow-wow with all the great minds here! People have done so much research and have so much experience, I am continually impressed by how much people know! The pool of communal knowledge is where it's at, and we all enrich each other. This is a wonderful group.
I can understand where leaky gut becomes a complicated debate, but then again in my mind in some ways it's also very simple.
Just consider the physiology involved. If things are leaking directly into the bloodstream, this means that the cells in every part of the body are being bathed....with whatever leaches into the blood.
Part-digested food molecules going rancid in the blood. Bad enough! Heavy metals, pesticides, medications, oy.
Attaching to the cells of heart muscles, the brain, you name it...thereby causing auto-immune attack of those cells, and the destruction of organ tissues....
If we think about this, then the question of whether or not to detox (imagine toxins released directly into the bloodstream) with a leaky gut, becomes a very simple question to answer.
NO!!!! In one word.
Dr Galland writes in his article I referenced above, Leaky Gut Syndrome: Breaking the Vicious Cycle that the liver bile itself becomes toxic when there is leaky gut.
So the liver itself---or better said, its secretions--- now becomes a toxin to the body instead of the filter and purifier that it is supposed to be.
Try detoxifying anything, let alone heavy metals, when that is the case? No thanks.
Think about it.
Yes it has many ins and outs to consider, but ultimately the solutions become very straightforward. Thinking about the physiology here should provide us with a lot of answers to our questions.
Tip: According to Paul Pitchford, a revered master nutritionist with an honorary doctorate from TEmple University, in his book Healing with Whole Foods, he writes that to strengthen "tonify" any body system is also to "tonify" or strengthen any existing parasites. So to strengthen the gut lining when you have parasites (this includes Candida) is also to strengthen the invaders, he writes. That is at least his perspective. Other docs may or may not agree, it's worth asking an ND about.
In any case, I can't advise anybody else and am not qualified. Neither would it even be wise for even a doctor to do so from afar, and a doctor has to know all the ins and outs of a person's condition before coming up with any treatment plan. I am not a doctor.
So what I am saying now is only what I would choose for my own self, in my own situation and with all that I know I have in my medical case.
For me, I would be addressing parasites and Candida first, building the gut lining thereafter, strengthening the liver and kidneys (milk thistle plus other liver herbs, nettles for the kidneys) and detoxifying heavy metals last of all.
Again that's for me in my current situation. Unique considerations may and probably do apply to each individual. Ask an ND for a treatment plan applying to your own unique case.
posted
How is it that I make people laugh when I'm not trying, and when I try, I can't?
Maybe I should do allergie-immune to correct this comedic dysregulation.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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No, remember the Beck's beer commercial that said "Germans don't do comedy." "I am he-yerr all zee veek." Yaaaah!
All kidding aside, I have seriously considered doing AI because I need to detox metals and I'd love to get rid of food allergies too.
The problem is, I can't find anyone who has done it that raves about it and makes a compelling case for it (except of course, GiGi).
It seems people do a few rounds and then quit. To spend $600 on something and then quit before taking it to completion makes a statement in itself.
It seems so common for people who want to get well very badly (don't we all?) to spend a couple grand on this machine or that machine, another few grand on a concentrated 6-month anti-candida therapy, then a few grand on an herbal therapy, a few grand on supplements to heal the gut, hundreds per month on staple supplements, how many hundreds/thousands to remedy KPU, how many thousands on chelators and binders......then there are air cleaners, diffusers, saunas, ozone machines, clay baths, epsom salts, etc., etc., etc.
Phew! Couple this with the fact that most of us who are sick are not employed, and one can go through a life savings in NO TIME FLAT!
I'm not one who is inclined to throw six hundred bucks at something, unless I can be assured that it's going to cause significant and lasting improvement.
I have noticed how people can get all charged up about this protocol or that protocol, they'll rave about it and say, this lady's/guy's protocol is the "next big thing" and then they spend all kinds of money on it and a couple of months later, they're complaining that they were ripped off.
I ain't up for that.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Has anyone tried that stuff they sell to fix flat tires? That may patch a hole. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I'm doing AI now and am on round 3. I'm doing it specifically because I had an anaphylactic reaction to shellfish after eating a fish that was breaded in the same breading used for shrimp. I had another reaction last week which must have been from the guy making my salad that was supposed to have shrimp, but I had them leave the shrimp off.
It has helped tons with my seasonal allergies (after a major healing reaction). It also helped heal my leaky gut the rest of the way. I had been able to eat anything, but had to restrict the quantity of raw veggies. Now I can eat raw veggies all I want and they digest well.
So far no help with my shellfish allergy.
As far as toxins, I think my skin is detoxing better. If you're familiar with iridology, the iris gets a "scurf rim" if your skin doesn't detox well. My scurf rim is getting much smaller on AI.
And, I'm certainly not complaining about being ripped off by my Bionic 880. Nor the AI, it was worth it just to be able to eat big salads again and not have to blow my nose all day in May.
But, I don't think AI is the miracle heal-all ..... that's why I hadn't used it up till now. My doctor wanted me to do something because my shellfish allergy has become so life-threatening, so I chose to do AI.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Chiquita -- the knowledge and civility within this forum is certainly making it a special alcove of information.
Chaps -- you hit my philosophy about what to buy and what not to buy. it feels like a crap shoot. I really believe we need to get organized in groups to share equipment once we know what equipment is useful. Probably a separate topic.
Survey question for all of us (name what you think is the top 5 treatments for leaky gut)
posted
L-Glutamine, i swear by that to help with sugar cravings! I know it is on the list to help leaky gut too, but i haven't ever researched HOW it addresses leaky gut healing.
posted
Bob, I would surely hope I was civil! What's not to be civil about here???
Ohh and do you know, I just re-read the post and I apologize, it was not meant to be specific to you Bob. I was saying "Thanks Bob" in response to what you wrote, then going on...poorly written...I just edited it. Thanks for the headsup!
As for costs, yes.
That's why I buy a lot of my herbs in bulk and try them out singly first.
I make teas and test to see how I respond to them. Sometimes you need the tincture for a greater concentration of product, I will try them singly and (sshhh, sorry I am putting this into print!) Whole Foods will take back what does not agree with you. So it's money not wasted. Oops I didn't print that!
That said I think there is not any cookie cutter approach to anything pertaining to the body. I think we all have different constitutional types, different needs and different responses. One person may be allergic to something and the next will respond beautifully to it.
There is an art to matching up herbs (and supplements too) with body types.
The book Healing with Whole Foods by Paul Pitchford is very helpful as education in this area, for anybody who is interested. It discusses foods and herbs alike, relational to body types.
Even then it's a bit of trial and error, there is a range of responses to people of similar body types to the same herb or food, or whatever. So you have to test it out, but the book could help a lot of people to weed some of the overgrowth out of the forest and find their way through this maze.
Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
L-glutamine helps promote the formation of glutathione. This is great for most because glutathione helps you detox Lyme & metals, but not so great for some, esp. if one has certain genomic variants that affect the methylation cycle.
L-glutamate (or L-glutamine) may also not be safe for those with seizure disorders because it may be converted into a neurotoxin that people with seizure disorders can be sensitive to and which can trigger increased seizure activity.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
Thanks Razzle! YOu know so much about digestion, allergies, methylation et al and are really a help here! I look forward to learning lots about this from you...
My LLMD said that L Glutamine converts to glutamate in the body, which is a nervous system excitant.
When I started out on lyme therapy I had *terrible!* agitation oh my god. It was severe, scary, probably somewhat dangerous or at least it felt that way....the herbs I am doing cleared it up in less than six months and it has not come back....
But given the agitation, my LLMD said to "stop it immediately" when I was taking L Glutamine.
So anybody with nerve zaps, agitation, electrical sensations et al, ask your doctor about L glutamine and see if they think it is okay or contra-indicated in your own case.
posted
Six and others interested in AI- I am really on the fence about this, so your input is interesting if not compelling. One problem I had was when I went on the AI thread and kind of asked for a brief introduction on what it was all about and what kind of results folks had had, it just seemed like that they did not understand why I was asking that. Also it seems that it is based on homeopathy? Can anyone d3escribe what it is based on? I actually have become a little more convinced recently of homeopaths ability to treat allergy, so maybe finding good homeopaths here might be just as effective.
I do have to say the price seems right if I understand it correctly. Any trip to a homeopath I imagine is near 400 bucks, and am sure it would likely surpass the 600 quickly thereafter. So from the perspective of not seeing a doc it is kind of cool in a way.
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
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posted
If you notice, I don't post on that thread.
Good homeopaths are very effective. NYJohn used the Bionic 880 then came home and finished treatment with a homeopath.
I don't know that AI is really homeopathic. It's hard to say. They talk about it being energetic. The website is in English now, so that might be the best thing to look at. I am willing to help as I can, but I don't have much to say about it that I didn't say above .....
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Six- lots of good advice recently from you that has had a direct impact on my situation. Thanks
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
It is not, absolutely not, related to homeopathy.
It simply is a therapy that introduces the correct "information" in form of frequencies (in water) to our DNA in an effort to correct the errors that have been passed down to us and/or the errors that have crept in distorting our immune reaction and no longer recognizing and correcting dealing with toxins. Most of us have simply been storing the toxins and are in overload causing us to finally cave in to an infection.
All I can say - it works. I* think I am now on my last "informed water" bottle since late 08. But I am old enough to have lived through a lot of bombardment of every chemical (about 80,000), every new toxin, and the left over of 12 root canals and metal toxin that come with them. AI accompanied me through all of this never wavering - just keeping on testing. Some was tough to go through as the body started to change course releasing - some I hardly noticed.
Of course it also protects me as life goes on, because they mercury is still in the air, we are still digging up more toxins and the chemists are eager at work. The microorganisms will only leave if the terrain is finally clean.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
This is probably one of the best threads I have read here...really
impressed with all the info and ideas shared...CI...the pow wow
reference is right on ! Tammy N I agree with you that all this
debating and learning truly helps us towards discovering that
"missing" puzzle piece ! Also LOL re : not the same gut you had
in your 20's... More LOL's elicited by Seekhelp...and
Chaps...don't try with the humor , just let it flow naturally...you
are a natural... Great post Fryecracker and all actually...I don't
know how I would sort all this out without you all...
Gigi...you are not being ignored...quite the opposite I
believe...many here value your input very highly... as you are so
knowledgeable...however the A1 may not be attracting too many
because the info there is hard to decipher , let alone reading
through that thesis of a thread ! ... Good to find out here what
it actually is...can I ask you sthg. about the A1 treatments ?
Do you solely do their protocol or is it OK to be taking other
supplements as well ...in other words...is it sthg that should be
done when not treating other conditions ?
BTW Gigi...how is your hubby doing now ? I hope better...sending
healing thoughts his way and yours ...
-------------------- "Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues , but the parent of all others "....Cicero Posts: 254 | From new jersey | Registered: Jul 2009
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Chiquita -- I really enjoy your posts a great deal and sorry if i inferenced anything else. We all use the wrong word here there and I thing I miscommuncated as well.
I think it would be great if we had a topic where we had someone try something for say leaky gut... Let's take slippery elm and oatmeal and have 20 people try it, then give it grade.
There are so many things we can try. It would be something to have a consumer report of alternative or traditional options for say leaky gut and I'm sure others.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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tickled1
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14257
posted
Razzle,
I hope you see this as it's an old thread but can you tell me a little more about it not being safe to take L-Glutamine "if one has certain genomic variants that affect the methylation cycle"?
I am taking Glutathione. Is the above still true if it is Glutathione and not L-Glutamine? How does one know "if one has certain genomic variants that affect the methylation cycle"? How is that determined/tested?
Thanks!
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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it's difficult to grasp leaky gut..thanks to all the contributors and please carry on Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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