bcb1200
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Member # 25745
posted
So..I've been taking 1000mg of Magnesium Glycenate for the past year.
Dr. B's guidelines day it is necessary as many people have low magnesium.
However..I have since read notes from a talk that Dr. B made in March of 2011 which state that magnesium feeds the spirochetes and creates biofilms. He says it should now be taken AFTER COMPLETEING antibiotics.
Other LLMD's from this coference say the same. Should I stop?
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3139 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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tricia386
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Member # 29623
posted
ugh so confusing
-------------------- Lyme activated in April 2010 by gardasil vaccine. DX: Lyme,Babs,Myco,Bart 11/10 Treatment Started: 3/28/11 Posts: 1752 | From Albany, NY | Registered: Dec 2010
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scorpiogirl
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Member # 31907
posted
Oh great! I was just about to order some too.
-------------------- Posts: 1391 | From Lyme Land | Registered: May 2011
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posted
My doctor who is a very well known LLMD in DC and tells me to take 1250 mg of magnesium malate twice a day.
I have read both sides of the argument but am following what my doctor wants me to do. I figure he knows what he is doing.
-------------------- Faithful
Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor. Posts: 2682 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2009
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TF
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posted
The only statement from Burrasacano on this subject on the website you gave is the following:
"�Minerals like calcium, iron, and magnesium may support/grow the biofilms."
Looks like you removed the "may" from the sentence. Is that right?
Lyme needs magnesium, but so do we. We have known this for a long time.
Seems to me like we are not yet at the point where we are confident that mag is doing this harm. We may have to wait a while before this is or is not an established fact.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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bcb1200
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posted
TF..six bullets below that Dr. B says
�Probiotics, mutlivitamins, CoQ10, NT Factor, Vitamin D, EFAs, magnesium (after on antibiotic treatment only), Transfer Factors, methyl-B12, and B-Complex are items that Dr. B has found useful.
It was the "AFTER ANTIBOITIC TREATMENT ONLY" comment that got my attention. This is from "the man" Dr. B.
Dr H says �Borrelia uses magnesium for metabolism and is fed by magnesium; whereas Babesia is fed by iron.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3139 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
Do you guys realize that you're relying on some guy's notes of the conference? Therefore, this is not from "the man" himself.
If anyone has an audio recording or a youtube link to the conference, that would be much more helpful.
If the note-taker made a mistake in one word of his notes, or a mistake in his hearing or understanding of the presentation, then this entire discussion is whack.
For example, the inclusion or emission of the word "MAY" would completely change the tone of Dr. B's message.
Likewise, if Dr. B had included a sentence afterwards (which was not included in the notes) like: "We are still gathering information, and we are not yet certain of the best form of magnesium supplementation," then that also would change the message.
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bcb1200
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posted
James...I agree. Except Scott (i.e. "Better Health Guy") knows his stuff and I have seen this in other notes from more recent talks.
Realize that Dr. B's guidelines are now 3 years old.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3139 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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TF
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Member # 14183
posted
OK, here is the bullet note that you are using to back up your statement:
"�Probiotics, mutlivitamins, CoQ10, NT Factor, Vitamin D, EFAs, magnesium (after on antibiotic treatment only), Transfer Factors, methyl-B12, and B-Complex are items that Dr. B has found useful."
To me, this note is NOT Burrascano saying that magnesium creates biofilms.
Rather, the statement I quoted earlier is what Burrascano said about mag creating biofilms. He said it MAY create biofilms.
So, you really are changing somewhat what the doc said, based on what the notes say.
YOU said: "magnesium feeds the spirochetes and creates biofilms"
I hope you can see that the Burrascano notes are not that cut and dried, as in stating an established fact.
And, by the way, I took magnesium and I got rid of lyme, babs, and bart while doing so. So did a number of my friends who were treated after me. I completed my treatment 6 1/2 years ago.
I am still symptom-free, enjoying my life.
We will have to see, as time goes by, if further research supports the idea that mag is doing more harm than good. We just don't know yet--that is what I have to conclude by reading these notes from the conference.
This is how medical knowledge advances. Statements like this are made, telling us new theories and possibilities. As time goes by, the statements will continue to be made or will no longer be made, depending on how the studies of the topic pan out.
You are just going to have to wait to know for sure.
Also, please note that the note you are quoting does NOT say what you said. You said that it said: "after antibiotic treatment only," but the note actually says "after ON antibiotic treatment only" which can be interpreted as, don't take mag until after you get on antibiotic treatment.
As you can see, notes are not a really, really good source for this kind of thing. If you can get an audio tape, that might be more interesting.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
I can't believe it's so hard to get an audio or video recording of that conference. I mean, if I was there, I probably would've at least brought an ipod or something to record it.
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bcb1200
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posted
I think we are splitting hairs. You are correct that the notes don't say "No Magnesium".
But they do say they believe it feeds biofilms, feeds lyme, and Dr. B states as of March that he believes magnesium should be given "after you are on antibiotic treatment only." (poorly worded / written.)
This comment is vastly different than the ones in his guidelines.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3139 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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posted
there is no doubt this is a dilemma, but my llmd says to take the magnesium, she says the lack of it is worse than the possiblity of it feeding the bugs. i am taking it.
Posts: 236 | From Zionsville IN | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
This one subject irks me to no end. I tend not to respond when I am irked because others take it so personally, I promise this isn't directed at any one person or personal. BUT....Think about it.
Picture the keetes in your body and just how much they would use. They will find a source whether you are deficient or not. If you are deficient they will take it from someplace you most likely won't want. And your body will suffer from the deficiency. Feed your body, kill the keetes. By giving your body what it needs, will help to fight the keetes. You couldn't possibly be so deficient in magnesium to actually kill the keetes, but you could be so deficient as to risk your health in general. There are over 450 functions of magnesium in your body.
For a doc to say not to take magnesium because it feeds bacterial biofilms is nuts and completely negates the risk versus benefit guidelines. Not only that but is a frank perversion of study results. Feeding the keetes is less of a risk than that to your body and the benefits of magnesium to your body. You can kill the keetes another way besides staying deficient in magnesium. And its not like the magnesium is going to make them superman keetes. They will take it from elsewhere.
Laurie
-------------------- �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.� Posts: 149 | From Kansas/Missouri | Registered: Aug 2008
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
Well... I believe we're overlooking an important point.
Those that say not to take Mg AREN'T saying not to take ANY Mg. They are usually saying that it's the ORAL Mg which feeds the keets. The same doctors usually say to take TRANSDERMAL Mg instead of oral, in order to keep the body sufficient in Mg.
So (IMO) they're not actually suggesting that we never take any Mg, and allow ourselves to become deficient. They are simply stating that transdermal Mg might be more beneficial than oral Mg.
That's the impression I got from reading the "Insights into Lyme Disease Treatment" book.
BTW what does "irk" mean? I'm gonna have to start using it now, because I think it sounds cool.
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posted
It doesn't matter whether oral or not? How does transdermal get into your body? It diffuses through capillaries in your skin and cytoplamic diffusion. How does it diffuse into your body orally? Through diffusion in the intestinal walls into the lymphatics surrounding your intestines, and then into the blood.
So by transdermal, HOW is this supposed to be better? It has to diffuse and be enzymatically changed or added to, to be used in the body irregardless of which way it comes in.
LOL......um, irk.....slightly annoyed but still able to see humor.....
-------------------- �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.� Posts: 149 | From Kansas/Missouri | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
BTW, I like the IMO and probably should of used it, but it is what it is.
-------------------- �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.� Posts: 149 | From Kansas/Missouri | Registered: Aug 2008
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
quote:Originally posted by lauirel: If you are deficient they will take it from someplace you most likely won't want. And your body will suffer from the deficiency. Feed your body, kill the keetes. By giving your body what it needs, will help to fight the keetes. You couldn't possibly be so deficient in magnesium to actually kill the keetes, but you could be so deficient as to risk your health in general. There are over 450 functions of magnesium in your body.
For a doc to say not to take magnesium because it feeds bacterial biofilms is nuts and completely negates the risk versus benefit guidelines. Not only that but is a frank perversion of study results. Feeding the keetes is less of a risk than that to your body and the benefits of magnesium to your body. You can kill the keetes another way besides staying deficient in magnesium. And its not like the magnesium is going to make them superman keetes. They will take it from elsewhere.
Laurie
Totally agree. Same thing with KPU. I don't understand why people put it off when it's a DEFICIENCY of vitamins/minerals needed by the body. You should post more often.
I also have iron deficiency anemia (nothing to do with Lyme) and supplemented iron all through babesia treatment. I've supplemented iron since I was in high school. Yes, the babesia uses it. But I would have been totally useless without it myself. I need it, too.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
@Laurie - Dang, girl! You gotta get a licence for that brain of yours! That thing is dangerous! Where'd you learn about "cytoplasmic diffusion"?!
Listen, I ain't no scientist, so I don't know why those doctors said it. All I know is that a couple of the LLMDs in the "Insights" book said brief statements like: "Transdermal mag feeds the body, oral mag feeds the spirochetes." The book wasn't meant to be a scientific manual, but was just showing the treatment methods of different LLMDs.
SOME of the LLMDs in the same book had different opinions, and they suggested just plain oral mag. So obviously it's currently a matter of opinion.
Personally, I take both oral and transdermal. I think they're both beneficial.
P.S. Thanks for the definition of "irks". How's this for my first sentence: "If someone irks me again, I'm gonna get reeeaaal stoked!" ?
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posted
I take the words "after on antibiotic treatment only" to mean you can take magnesium if you are on AB treatment, ie after you start. It doesn't say wait until after your entire treatment is done (many of us will be or have been on for years, right?). I have found that it has been super helpful for my back and neck pain. My 2 cents!
-------------------- Country Mouse
6/2011 IgX: IGG: 31 IND, 41+++, 45+, 58+ IGM: 31+, 39 IND, 41 IND, 83-93 IND Band 31 confirmed to be Lyme epitope by Igenex 7/2011
8/2011 IgX: POSITIVE IGG: 31+, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41++, 45+, 58+ IGM: 31+, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41++, 83-93+ Posts: 169 | From Western Mass | Registered: May 2011
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posted
hahahaha....irked conatates a slight negativity where as stoked conatates a happier meaning. So the two don't belong together!! snicker......try again?
.....peeved might work instead of stoked....Alrighty then... back to all seriousness.
-------------------- �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.� Posts: 149 | From Kansas/Missouri | Registered: Aug 2008
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bcb1200
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25745
posted
quote:Originally posted by CountryMouse: I take the words "after on antibiotic treatment only" to mean you can take magnesium if you are on AB treatment, ie after you start. I
Wouldn't that be "during" Abx treatment?
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3139 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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posted
I've said this before .. James, just how old ARE you?? Being irked is something I've done for the past 50 yrs or so!!
--as for magnesium-- I took it the whole time I was treated and I got well also. No problems. Still taking it.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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nonna05
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posted
Man oh man ,you guy;'s are having a lot of fun with irked...........I'm definitely irked at the / most infectious disease doctor's for leaving most of us out there to suffer , die, and /or whatever is in between.
They know somethings up with all this. I've seen 7 so far.. and it was not one of them who told me Lyme. It was a LLMD. After 5 years.
Anyway what about the recent info posted about the honey helping break down the bio-film.
Nonna
Posts: 2563 | From Denver,CO | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
So I know this string is old but I'm gonna bring it up again...
my 2 cents - I think the issue that the LLMDs are discussing is not that Mg feeds keets but that the keets use it to ***create Biofilms in the gut with the Mg*** to evade abx
so would it not be more "dangerous" to take Mg while ON abx?
I think that's what Dr. B speculated in the March 2011 CALDA DVD "putting lyme behind you" - I think he said to take the Mg after abx are done but I can't be sure and too tired to review the DVD now - also, like some of you said, that would be very long for some people and not good for the body to wait that long - so ???
the transdermal Mg, I guess, is not supposed to have that problem - why espaces me, too, since biofilm in the skin could be just as bad as biofilm in the gut - maybe worse, since it will be harder for anything to reach it
Thank you, TF and Lymetoo!!, for saying that you took Mg and got rid of Lyme - so grateful!!! - I am like the little girl standing in front of the ocean with my little inflatable safety ring around my belly and my inflatable wings on my arms, afraid of sharks, and when you go in the water and have fun, I can go in, too
having said that, I know we are all still learning, like you said, but I am going to feel better about taking some Mg now and I think I need it (constipated without and had the heart blips that feel like your heart is burping, and that a nurse told me could be lack of Mg, I forgot what she called it, it was a three letter acronym, sigh!)
also, you guys, I could not get anyone else to respond - my LLMD is not available for questions between apts it seems - you are always there for me thank you!!!
and thank you, James, for pointing me back to this thread!!! I had seen it but forgot
-------------------- Persistence, persistence, persistence!!! "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence... Persistence and determination are omnipotent." attributed to Calvin Coolidge Posts: 599 | From USA | Registered: Jun 2011
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Tracy9
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posted
Go to www.lymefriends.org and read the powerpoints from the UNH conference, the lastest one. Read Dr. Wulfman's notes. He clearly states that magnesium feeds the biofilms and should only be used topically, not orally.
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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canefan17
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posted
You guys better take magnesium (heart!)
You're going to kill the bugs anyway - so who cares if they feed on magnesium?
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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nonna05
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posted
OK <So med-honey doesn't cut the bio-film so that the abx can do it's work??????
I also heard that Fulvic,,,Not Folic,,,,,Acid removes the bio=film or protector that the Keetes develop to protect..
. And it was referring to Doxy getting in to do the job it's not able to at this point...This was from Longgevitylives conference.
I know spelling etc. bad/sorry /barely able to type, Thanks , Nonna Posts: 2563 | From Denver,CO | Registered: Aug 2011
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bcb1200
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
UPDATE...well I got clarification from Better Health Guy and he said his notes mean you must take magnesium, but only after starting antibiotics.
Don't wait until after you finish treatment. Don't start before you start treatment.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3139 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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