Topic: If milk is bad for the bones, then is kefir also bad for the bones?
James1979
Unregistered
posted
Some people say that milk leeches calcium out of the bones. They say that when people drink milk, more calcium will be found in the urine than what was supplied in the milk (implying that not only did the body NOT absorb the milk calcium, but also it threw out some from the body's reserves). Also, the countries which consume more dairy products have more cases of osteoporosis, while the countries which consume the least dairy products have the best bone health.
IF this is true about milk (and I know it's debatable), then would milk kefir also leech calcium from the bones?
Thank you, peeps! I wish everyone a super wonderful day.
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I used to have kefir grains and made kefir for over a year. Here there is a company that makes lightly pasteurized (170 degrees for 20 seconds) non-homogenized milk. When we went on vacation to visit my dad, we used organic, homogenized, pasteurized milk. Our grains almost DIED!!!
So, I don't think all milk is the same. I think that homogenized, pasteurized milk is pretty void of anything good whether it's organic or not.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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James1979
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posted
I agree that raw milk is best, but it's very difficult to find raw (or lightly-pasteurized) milk here (even though I'm right next to cowland!). Whole Foods stopped carrying it a few years ago, and even Trader Joe's doesn't carry it. I was actually recently working on trying to find some by asking some farmer friends. Too bad most farmers are "commercial" non-organic. Ah... what has happened to this country?
I must tell you, though, that I've been feeding my kefir grains nothing but organic homogenized pasteurized milk, and they grow just fine. They seem to double every 3 weeks or so. I definitely would never use non-organic milk, though.
One more thing: There are a lot of sites on the internet which say to NEVER use non-organic milk when making yogurt or kefir or even sourdough bread, because supposedly the antibiotics in the milk kill the cultures. Before I used to care about organic vs. non-organic stuff, I used to make yogurt all the time with non-organic milk, and I never had a problem. That's why sometimes I doubt all of those warnings. I'm sure organic is better, but I've just never seen non-organic milk kill any cultures, like many webpages are insisting.
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-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
A healthy population of friendly bacteria in our intestines is also important for strong bones. Friendly bacteria supply our bodies with Vitamin K, which is needed to build the bone matrix. The foods a person can eat to increase their supply of good bacteria include lactic acid foods such as home made sauerkraut (cultured vegetables), raw yogurt, kefir (the only dairy foods I recommend) and plenty of fiber, which provides a place for the good bacteria to grow.
When we tell people to stay away from dairy products, they all want to know where they�re going to get calcium. The best sources include dark leafy green vegetables, lettuce, watercress, cabbage, brussel sprouts, kale, broccoli, collards, mustard greens, oats, navy beans, almonds, walnuts, millet, sunflower seeds, corn tortillas, sardines, asparagus, figs, prunes, tofu and all unrefined grains. If someone insists on using dairy products the best are yogurt or kefir. The lactose (sugar) in these fermented products has been consumed by the fermenting culture and converted to lactic acid.
Brussels
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Member # 13480
posted
Yogurt and Kefir Yogurt and kefir are fermented milk products that offer many outstanding health benefits
Both yogurt and kefir are rich sources of calcium. However, yogurt, kefir, and other fermented milk products contain an iron-building glycoprotein known as lactoferrin, a substance that can rejuvenate bones on a cellular level. A number of important studies have concluded that lactoferrin may have a physiological role in bone growth and healing, and a potentially therapeutic role as an anabolic factor in osteoporosis
Unfortunately, between our sedentary lifestyle and our conscientious use of sunscreens, most Americans don�t get enough vitamin D. Studies have shown that this vitamin�s beneficial effects extend to reducing the risk of colon, breast, and prostate cancers. And it�s long been known that vitamin D helps maintain strong bones. Older adults can also reduce their risk of falls by more than 20% by ensuring that they get enough vitamin D. A study recently reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association noted that �vitamin D may also improve muscle strength, thereby reducing fracture risk through falls.�
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Very interesting information. I did not know fermenting the milk turns the sugar to lactic acid. No wonder my diabetic son can eat yogurt but not drink milk. I will have to tell him.
Also, lactoferin is supposed to be very good for bartonella bio film.
Vitamin D deficiency is linked to type one diabetes, other autoimmune diseases and cancer.
Something I found out about milk is there is A1 beta casein in Holstein cow's milk, which is mutated. Guernsey cows have A2 beta casein which is not linked to diabetes. Goats milk also does not have the A1. I buy plain yogurt made from organic guernsey cow's milk.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
milk kefir is not milk in the end. i always use organic milk, definitely you must, or raw from a trusted source.
but kefir is the substance, or even a sort of excriment (?) which is the milk that has been digested by the grains. so, it's really "milk fed" kefir.
even severe lactose intoleerance or any other milk problems become moot.
i think dom's kefir in-site goes into the science of this. the milk fed kefir also creates more and different nutrients than water kefir.
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Thanks, everyone, for the info. I learned a lot.
I must add, though, that I still don't feel like I know the answer to the original question (in the title of the thread). I think I'm gonna go research some more on WHY milk causes bone problems, and then I'll see if those specific properties are in kefir also. A LN friend had sent me a link to a book which has a chapter about why milk is bad for the bones, so maybe I'll start there.
Another factor is that it might not be the milk itself which is bad for the bones, but the calcium in general. A lot of new studies are showing that more calcium = shorter lifespan, and more calcium = greater chance of bone problems. They're saying that it's the MAGNESIUM, not the calcium, which is most important. I still want to research more on this so that I understand it better, but my point is that if the excess calcium is the problem, then kefir would be just as troublesome as the milk.
JLP - thanks for the link.
The laws of my state say it's illegal to sell raw milk at a store. The only way it's legal to get raw milk is if you go to a farm yourself, and if you fill it up with YOUR OWN CONTAINER! Isn't that ridiculous??! Can they make it any more inconvenient for us to get some raw milk? Why do I have a feeling that it's the FDA behind this, since they're trying to shut down the small-time farmers?
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posted
James, I dont know what state you're in, but raw milk is illegal in my state too. So we use a cow share program. It's really quite simple. The dairy distributes milk to various locations around town and members pick up their milk. In other words, I live 100 miles from the dairy. I have a $50 fridge I purchased off of craigslist in my garage. Every week, a fridge full of milk is delivered to my garage and everyone comes and picks their milk up from me. They all have my garage code so I dont have to deal with people when they pick up if I don't want to. Maybe the dairies near you have something alomg those lines? If you're personally required to pick up at the dairy, thats just annoying,
Sorry no help on your actual question. Maybe it has to do with a vitamin/mineral balance in our bodies? I remember reading that is the reason we don't absorb calcium from milk - because it's not in the right ratio to other nutrients. Surprise surprise, it is in the right ratio for baby cows.
Let us know what you learn.
Posts: 707 | From Colorado | Registered: Jul 2010
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
That "cow share" program sounds very cool. I'll have to look more into that. I think that would be considered "illegal" too in my state, but I wonder if people do it anyway. I'll have to ask some farmers, maybe they would know.
Isn't it crazy that something so natural as "raw milk" would be illegal anywhere? And the funny thing is that they do it in the name of safety! I just read that about 1,000 people got temporarily ill from raw milk since 1989. Well... over 10,000 people have gotten sick or permanently disabled from the Gardasil vaccine, yet they're allowed to continue pushing that on all the kids!!! Plus I wonder how many people get sick from "regular" pasteurized homogenized milk, if they drink it when it's too old. PLUS all of the illness caused by non-organic milk, with its hormones and antibiotics...
jlp - if I learn anything interesting in my studies, I'll be sure to come back and post here.
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posted
Raw milk is illegal here, too. Since I'm usually only making lattes with the milk and heating it to 160 degrees, I figure milk that is pasteurized at 170 for 20 seconds is irrelelvant. We're lucky to have Snowville staying inside "legal" limits.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Catgirl
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Member # 31149
posted
I read The China Study, Skinny *****, and The Food Revolution. Somewhere in those books (can't remember which one, brain fog) it said that animal protein leeches calcium out of the bones (not just milk).
I went vegan after that. My calcium levels were great after that, so there must be some truth to it.
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
Mindy - thanks for bringing up that good point.
IF it is the proteins in milk that leech calcium from the bones, the question is: Are the proteins in kefir so different so that they do not have this same effect?
Does anyone know if the proteins in milk are similar to the proteins in kefir? I would have guessed that the kefir proteins are "pre-digested", but I'm not sure about that.
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posted
Cow share works because it's only illegal to sell raw milk in my state. Its not illegal to drink it. So I actually own a share of a cow (think time share) and I pay the dairy to board my cow and deliver my milk to me.
Posts: 707 | From Colorado | Registered: Jul 2010
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jackie51
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"Dude you think too much" Too funny!
Posts: 1374 | From Crazy Town | Registered: Dec 2007
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by jackie51: "Dude you think too much" Too funny!
LOL! I agree, it was funny. That's not the first time I've heard that.
Does anybody else want to take cheap shots at me before I continue? Anybody? No one? Okay, I'll continue, then.
Here's what I've learned so far: There are two possible mechanisms for why milk increases risks for osteoporosis: 1) Because it's an animal protein and it leaves an acidic ash in the body when digested. The body then leeches calcium from the bones in order to neutralize the acids.
2) Because it contains a lot of calcium (300mg per cup), and increases of calcium intake are correlated with decreases in bone density. A lot of people aren't going to like this statement, because we've all been brainwashed by the dairy industry into thinking that milk and calcium are good for the bones. There is a TON of data that shows that milk and excess calcium are both bad for the bones (and for the body in general).
So how does kefir relate to milk in the above two cases? 1) Kefir leaves an alkaline ash in the body after digestion, NOT an acidic ash like milk does. This is debatable, because some sources say that kefir is acid-forming. But a lot of respectable sites (like the Body Ecology Diet) say that milk kefir is alkalizing. IF this is the case, then kefir is not bad for the bones like milk is. Since the proteins in kefir are pre-digested by the probiotics and the enzymes, they are completely different than the proteins in milk. For this reason I think it's reasonable to accept that kefir might leave a more-alkaline ash in the body than other animal proteins.
2) Kefir contains the same amount of calcium as milk does, so IF it is the calcium in milk which causes decreases of bone density, then kefir would have the exact same problem as milk. I'm still studying on this issue, because it's pretty complex. I would like to understand the science behind calcium's effect on the bones. It's difficult to uncover the truth because of the brainwashing and propaganda which has been occurring for decades. A lot of recent studies are showing that it's not healthy to take calcium supplements, and it's actually MAGNESIUM which is much better at building bone density. Calcium is repeatedly shown to be bad for the bones, to shorten life expectancy, and to greatly increase rates of heart attacks, strokes, and other heart problems.
Summary: Between points #1 and #2 above, my conclusion so far is that kefir is definitely not as bad as milk is for the bones, but I still don't know if it would be good or bad for the bones. Concerning point #1 about the animal proteins: kefir doesn't have the same negative effects as milk. Concerning #2 about the high calcium content: kefir is just as bad as milk.
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posted
I got rid of dairy from all the reading I've done on it and chronic diseases. Now I just drink coconut water kefir. Inner-eco has trillions of live bacteria in it - even more than VSL. You can buy it at Whole Foods.
Posts: 618 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2009
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canefan17
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Kefir is not dairy
The grains eat up the lactose and milk sugar.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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MichaelTampa
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posted
I have also heard it is the protein in milk that is the problem. Of course that doesn't mean that's the real reason, but it's what people thought/think at some point. So you might look at the protein content in the kefir. Since canefan is saying the kefir is really dairy transformed into something else, I suppose you might want to look at how high/low the protein content is in the kefir, but also what make-up in terms of amino acids.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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