posted
Beginning to look more seriously at non-antibiotic treatments. . . Some have told me that a cure/remission is NOT possible without antibiotics.
Anyone have a success story without using them?? I would love to get my daughter well without destroying her body in the process. . .
Posts: 63 | From north Texas | Registered: Apr 2011
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- There are some choices.
Most (if not all) LL naturopathic doctors also rely on antibiotics, along with supplements.
You might first read about RIFE machines (in the set of links).
Still, I hope whomever you choose to guide you should be ILADS-educated in that they know as much as possible about the borrelia spirochete - in all its forms, cycles and nuances . . . and about other tick-borne and chronic stealth infections
as well as conditions that often go along with "lyme complex" such as adrenal dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction, heavy metals, parasites, etc . . . and also good adrenal and liver support.
Your daughter is lucky to have you on her team. Good luck to you both.
Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:
Understanding of the importance of addressing the infection(s) fully head-on with specific measures;
Knowing that support supplements are important, but NEVER enough alone. And knowing which supplements have direct impact, which are only support and which are both.
You can compare and contrast many approaches.
BASIC HERBAL EDUCATIONAL links, and
BODY WORK links with safety tailored to lyme patients,
RIFE technology links here, too.
LOW HEAT INFRARED SAUNA detail (as a support). -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Is a cure possible WITH antibiotics? I wonder if there will ever be a day when I don't have to take pills.
Posts: 3 | From Southern California | Registered: Nov 2011
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- There may not yet be a cure - and it's a very long and winding road - but many have reached remission in various ways. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
Totally possible!!! I took 2 weeks of doxy, maybe a few days on amoxy, 3 days of Riamet, and another one for a few days during tuberculosis that was activated due to lyme (I forgot the name....).
That was during 4 years of lyme treatment and I am in full remission for more than 2 years.
My daughter took about a total of 2 months of antibiotics and only got worse. The last one, was rocephin, but she only took 2 days IV and I also stopped that.
We used other treatments and she is also in remission for about 1.5 years.
I have LOADS of unused antibiotics in my closet that are old and need to be thrown out.
I swear by homeopathy used with infrared light. That put our hell to an end. It is not a holistic treatment, you will still need other supportive things like what Kleeber says, but infrared + homeopathic nosodes take care of the infectious part of lyme.
Don't believe on what people say, that it is not curable. Not everyone has to take medicine forever.
The only thing we take, my daughter and I, daily or on and off, are: chlorella, cardamon powder, enzymes (Rechtsregulat), propolis in winter, Omega 3 or flaxseed oil, bee pollen sometimes, Vit D3 in winter, allergy immune drops. That's about it.
It is not a treatment for lyme, but a holistic support for the body. This is targeted more against colds, flu, and stomach viruses that my daughter can catch at school, than lyme.
We still get often bitten by ticks. And I can assure you, we only take antibiotics when other treatments don't work. They are our LAST alternative.
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Someone posed this question a few weeks ago asking who got well on natural stuff alone. If I recall, NO ONE said that was the case for them.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jamers
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 28016
posted
Brussels-By infrared light, do you mean a FIR sauna?
-------------------- Diagnosed Pos. Lyme Nov. 17, 2010, Igx. Pos. Babesia Duncani March 2011, Igx. Clinical diagnosis for Bartonella Posts: 1127 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2010
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bcb1200
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25745
posted
No..I think Brussels means PE-1 or Bionic 880 style device.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3139 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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nefferdun
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posted
I don't believe herbs and supplements will get you well. I tried massive amounts and relapsed twice. I have my doubts that abx will do the trick either but it does get you a lot closer. The problem is, a lot of us can't tolerate the chemical onslaught long enough to kill everything.
I am getting the PE1 Monday (he just mailed it) and I hope it will be what tips the scale in my favor to get me into remission.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
What is a Bionic 880 or a PE1? Has anyone gone into remission or "cure" from that??
I know someone who lives near us that is well and used only natural methods. So I think it is possible. Maybe most people don't go this route??? I was just wondering if any others can get well this way.
I love reading you all's thoughts and opinions--I am still learning lots. I have learned enough to know that I HATE Lyme. . . But I LOVE the encouraging and supportive people I have met. both in person and online!!
Thanks for thoughts and input!
Posts: 63 | From north Texas | Registered: Apr 2011
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
Do a search here by the words Bionic or PE1, you will find.
I don't know if we can call cure. I do think this is the strongest protocol I used until now for putting borrelia dormant and keeping dormant for long.
I used herbs for about 3.5 years previous to photons, together with homeopathy, microcurrent...
I did reach remission then got bitten again or relapsed. I got bitten almost every year... Well, with herbs, I could only stay without treatment maximum 4 months. Then I either relapsed or got bitten.
Even Buhner says that today, that once you reach remission, he recommends treating still for ONE YEAR!! Only a couple of herbs will do the job, he thinks.
I agree with him, that without a maintenance protocol, many of us would relapse (at least, my daughter and I did).
With photons, my daughter relapsed once too, but it took her 8 months for that to happen. And she got back to remission in less than 3 weeks of treatment. Until now, she's fine (last time we treated her was on Jan 2010).
I'm 2.5 years on remission, without treatment. So far, so good.
We did LOADS of other things so I believe that the photon + homeopathy deals WELL with infectious part of lyme but for other stuff, you need other treatments.
For example: heavy metal detox, parasite cleansing, mold and candida treatment, psychological blockages, vaccination detox, teeth problems and cavitations or amalgams, hormone balancing, KPU issue, allergy issue, auto immune reactions, leaky gut, etc.
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Also check out Stephen Buhner's book "Healing Lyme" - it's a treasuretrove of info about how to use fairly affordable herbs to treat Lyme and co-infections. Also see www.buhnerhealinglyme.com,www.planetthrive.com and the yahoo group Lyme_aid_buhner.
Posts: 13171 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Thx Lymetoo for the mention... seems as if a combo is needed ...
natural and traditional ( when needed) but support always for the
entire body , ongoing ... whew what a disease !
-------------------- "Gratitude is not only the greatest of virtues , but the parent of all others "....Cicero Posts: 254 | From new jersey | Registered: Jul 2009
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
Buhner's herbs can put some part of lyme in remission (specially borrelia), but it misses on coinfections.
I did full 2.5 years on various Buhner's herbs (non stop) but also added Chinese herbs, dr. C's tinctures and dr. K's herbs and treatments, plus homeopathy and the microcurrent (type of Rife).
These all put my lyme in remission a couple of times (after reinfection or relapse), but it was short lived (for me, maximum 4 months, for my daughter, longer about 6 months or so). But we both relapsed or got bitten again and fell anyway sick again.
As Buhner himself says NOW, years after his book was first published, after you reach remission with herbs, you need one year on maintenance herbs, just to be sure the dormant forms don't come out again.
It is not a problem of herbs, many abx users report the same. There is a transition period that must be monitored.
When I say I relapsed, it was passing from zero treatment, zero symptoms to full blown symptoms!!!
Rife users also say they need maintenance rifing for keeping symptomless. For how long, I don't know but I have the impression some stay forever rifing...
For me, it was photons that put the thing dormant for very long (with nosodes). But it could be that other treatments I did previously helped too.
Now Im still treating some allergies and KPU problem, but no more lyme.
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
My wife has never used any pharmaceutucal products for Lyme or any co-infections. By in large, her treatment has been with Rife type frequency treatments.
I have given her Cumanda to help with Bart, along with frequency treatments.
I gave her Samento and Cumanda early on, but they only staved off the infections for a time, always coming back. Her stomach would always give her trouble eventually and the oral treatments had to stop.
She also used MMS for a while and it worked to a degree, but the same stomach problems made that impossible to continue also.
In the end it was frequency treatments that have brought her back to normal. She is not infection free, from what I can tell. She still can get a herx from a long treatment for Bart or Lyme but she is symptom free, aside from occasional joint pain that can come and go, but is not bad. She leads a normal life and works well over forty hours a week running our business.
Not cured, but a normal life. For whatever reason, the remaining infection does not cause the symptoms it once did. Maybe the remaining infections are attenuated, or her immune system is able to hold it down, but the result is she is in better shape than myself.
I am sure we will have to treat on occasion to keep everthing in check, but it is far better than it has ever been in the past. I am happy with the results, and disapointed that the infections may always be there to some degree.
She also took Mg, Turmeric and Ginger to help her along the way.
Dan
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
From the people I have spoken with it seems more people went into remission on herbals.
this is from what I gathered personally and is in no way scientific
but most of these same people did use antibiotics for some period of time and then switch to Herbals and felt better
so there is no way to know if the herbals alone would have done it without the antibiotics also.
but I can tell you more people who are in remission claim to be using herbals
Paul
Posts: 925 | From Connecticut | Registered: Aug 2010
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
The way to know if herbs alone do the job, is to treat with herbs alone and see for yourself!!
We only used abx once for a couple of weeks. After that, never more. I don't feel well on them, my daughter never reached remission on them EVEN after being bitten (acute lyme).
ABx for us do not work even for acute lyme, when we start from DAY ONE, when we find the tick still biting us!!
So, there's no way we would use it again, specially for CHRONIC LYME. We keep reading abx works wonderful for acute lyme, but it does NOT WORK for well for chronic.
If for us, it cannot even cure us from a new tick bite, only a few hours attached, why taking abx then for chronic lyme?? It makes little sense.
Or even for acute lyme? We get bitten EVERY YEAR. I got 4 bites this summer, my daughter 2. Abx are out of our list. We have enough experience with tick bites to rule them out. They are still though, our last resource, in case nothing else works.
HOWEVER, I see people around me with the EM rash CURED with abx alone, but they only take 2 weeks of doxy, low dose!! They are fully cured! Never anymore sick. So far.
There was even a boy, who was somehow chronic, because his EM rash appeared in his EAR in January, full winter, no tick bite.
Half of his head had the rash, the doctor immediately said: lyme disease. And he took amoxy for 2 weeks, and the rash was gone, and he never fell sick. I know him for years, he's my neighbor.
So... I guess, it's a problem of different people requiring different treatments. For us, abx are too weak somehow, they just don't work, even though they helped a bit sometimes.
Herbs in combination worked better, but it is MUCH harder to build a protocol with herbs, as you need them in combination and in the exact right amount. The amount varies from person to person. And combinations vary too, like with abx.
I have no doubt that for the pros and cons, I take herbs first in the next infection or relapse. Or photons, but no way abx. That is what we've been doing in the last years, after failure of abx for OUR acute lyme.
For other people, I tell them, try abx first, but not for me nor my daughter. We have enough experience to know abx are totally ineffective for us.
Even Buhner says, many people get well after about 30 days of abx, and that is what he recommends. Try abx for lyme first, he says.
But after 30 days or so (his words!!), if abx doesn't work, I don't think he recommends abx anymore!
He is totally against long term abx.
Look at his site, the news part, he is writing something like, we are seeing all these infections getting more and more abx resistant. He will publish a whole book only on bart treatment soon, for example!
ABx resistance talk is in almost all of his other books, not in Healing Lyme though. The resistant critters do not remain in the person who took abx, but spreads to the whole environmnt (family, pets around, hopital). There are studies showing that, in Buhners's books.
It is not the person who took abx that develops abx resistant critters, but these abx resistant critters may infect other people and pets who are sharing the same environment, but who never took abx! Shown in research.
If you go visit Planet Thrive, you will see many people getting good results with Buhner's herbs. Some mix Cowden and other herbs too.
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
I tried abx for almost two years and did not get well. Better, yes, but nowhere near well. I still spent half my days on the couch or in bed.
I went into remission more than two years ago from 9 months of Bionic 880 treatment. I WISH I had heard about the Bionic treatment before I used the abx. But as it was, I didn't find out about it until I got tired of using the drugs and wanted to try something different.
So, as Lymetoo says above, I can't say I never used abx, but I was NOT using them anymore when I started Bionic treatment. My 11 months of treatment was with no abx whatsoever. And as Brussels mentioned, I continued to treat for about a year past symptoms just to be sure. Did I need to continue treating? I have no idea, but it wasn't worth the risk not to.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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nefferdun
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posted
The way I understand the PE1, there is no reason not to continue to use it because it is health promoting. It stimulates acupuncture points to boost the immune system, helps promote healing, reduces pain and increases collagen in the skin and joints. So I do not intend to ever quit using it, no matter how well I feel.
Photon therapy is FDA approved for pain relief and stimulating healing (and some other things). The nosodes are not scientifically validated (I don't think) so not FDA approved, but that is just one of the ways it is used to stimulate the body to heal itself.
As far as continuing with herbs or some other natural treatment, it just makes sense to support our bodies. We can't go back to the lifestyle we lived before of junk food and other bad habits. If we don't get hit with lyme disease it will be something else like cancer, diabetes or heart disease.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by nefferdun: We can't go back to the lifestyle we lived before of junk food and other bad habits. If we don't get hit with lyme disease it will be something else like cancer, diabetes or heart disease.
Good point!
Posts: 707 | From Colorado | Registered: Jul 2010
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posted
Can you use a PE1 if you have a pacemaker defibrillator implanted in your chest?
-------------------- Faithful
Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor. Posts: 2682 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2009
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
quote:Originally posted by nefferdun: The way I understand the PE1, there is no reason not to continue to use it because it is health promoting. It stimulates acupuncture points to boost the immune system, helps promote healing, reduces pain and increases collagen in the skin and joints. So I do not intend to ever quit using it, no matter how well I feel.
True, and I still use my Bionic, but I get busy, and don't.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
quote:Originally posted by faithful777: Can you use a PE1 if you have a pacemaker defibrillator implanted in your chest?
I don't know.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Can't find any contraindications to using a PE1. I would think that the infrared light wouldn't even affect the pacemaker. I know that rife is out.
-------------------- Faithful
Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor. Posts: 2682 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2009
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
I wouldn't think it would affect it. Even using frequencies, it's just a pulsing of the light. But I don't know what kinds of things are not okay with a pacemaker.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
Same for me. Abx were never curative for me.
Except perhaps Riamet (not curative, but it was amazing how fast I got well from a bad babesia). It didn't cure my babesia for good though, but it did make me feel better fast. And in only 3 days!
My daughter took abx from day 1 after tick bite, only to fall sicker and sicker. So in her case, abx made her worse. It helped her zero.
All other tick bites, we never anymore treated with abx. It's page turned in our lives.
As I told above, for other people, I just tell them try abx after a tick bite (because I see it helped some of my neighbors!). But for us, no way.
They are fully inefective even for new tick bites, point. ----- As for pace maker, look at connie strasheim book, page 192
posted
I copied this from a previous thread, and saved it. Now, I can't find the thread.
A study done on the combination of samento and banderol together to reduce B. burgdorferi bacteria (Lyme disease). (Here is a summary of the study, also check it out on the link below:)
Herbal Treatments of Lyme vs Doxycycline � herbals more effective
Townsend Letter for Doctors http://www.townsendletter.com/July2010/sapi0710.html In these experiments, we compared the effect of Samento and Banderol with doxycycline, the most common antibiotic treatment agent for Lyme disease treatment in a 96-hour treatment period. Our results showed that doxycycline (250 �g/ml) was very effective in eliminating the spirochetal form of B. burgdorferi, but it significantly increased the round-body forms. Comparing this doxycycline data with that of the herbal extracts, Banderol and the combination of Samento and Banderol (1:300) were more efficient in eliminating both the spirochetal and round-body forms of B. burgdorferi in vitro (Figures 1A�C). In the absence of antimicrobial agents, B. burgdorferi is forming biofilmlike colonies (Figure 2A) with mainly live bacterial cells. In the presence of Samento extract (1:300), the colonies were significantly smaller and less organized (Figure 2 , but they did stain with green dye, indicating that live cells remained. In the presence of Banderol extracts, the size of colonies did not show any reduction; however, the cells inside the colonies are >90% dead. In the presence of both herbal extracts, no sign of any colony formation was observed in the cultures, but we found evidence of a few individual nonmotile but green spirochetes and round bodies. In the presence of doxycycline (250 �g/ml), the average colony size was increased and contained mainly live round-body forms.
There was more, with pictures. I was on ABX for years, and got better, but the fatigue never lifted from 2 out of 1-10.
Now I'm on Banderol and Samento. My LLMD is using these herbs, sometimes even starting a patient with them. In 2+ months, I am up to 4 in energy.
I have learned that varicose veins can mean as much as 20% of my blood is pooled in the lower legs. Since then, I have elevated my legs when taking the herbs, and get a much more pronounced herx. When I get the procedure done to collapse the veins, I feel I will be on the road to recovery, or whatever my best is going to be. But, before that, I'm expecting either a flush of infection, or a huge herx. I'm going to take the herbs right before having the procedure done.
Posts: 563 | From New Mexico, USA | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Wouldn't you know, I just found it, and bumped it to the top, to make it easier to find the study itself. It's actually in a thread that I started myself, and I thought the thread started with the post that had the link to the study.
The title of the thread is:
treatment chage--banderol & samento only!
Posts: 563 | From New Mexico, USA | Registered: May 2007
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