lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
it used to bother me when we had an unvented heater
then it didnt bother me...but i didnt use it much as i was gone from this house in the winter
now the house is closed, and i am using the oven more and it is bothering me
just had all 3 appliances checked---they are all running fine so i guess it is me\
1. its cold so i'm using them more 2. windows are closed-less air 3. im worn out from move...so guess immune sys down maybe
just wondering if others have this problem...it reminds me of chem sensitivity
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- We should not be around propane exhaust. It reminds you of chemical sensitivity because it is. It's a strong chemical vapor. Not for us to breathe in.
As unvented heaters are never to be used without their vents, I wonder if your model is a "vent-less" model. For anyone with MCS, even vent-less ones can be risky.
Can you use another method to heat? I have an infrared heater that is very nice heat-wise, but I don't use it as it's in a plastic casing. It's only for emergencies. If you can find one in a metal casing, that would be good.
Whether vented or a model supposedly designed to be vent-less, I would rather freeze before wanting to be around a propane heater. Even a whiff from a propane fueled camp store, outside, knocks me out for days. Very toxic and damaging to me in many ways.
I'm sorry it's clobbered you, too.
In the meantime, fill up on hot teas, wear hats, and remember that ginger and garlic are "hot" herbs that can help keep your circulation warmed up, too.
If you have a lemon or lemon essential oil, try whiffing some of that. It can help the brain a bit when hit with chemical exhaust.
Quick, before dark, it would be good to air out your home, especially any top levels for the propane fumes can get trapped on upper levels.
Just give a good airing and close up before any furniture starts to cool down too much. It's important to flush the air everyday, really, in very tight homes.
Good luck. -
[ 12-28-2011, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
Identifying Environmental Illness and Mold Exposure in Patients with Persistent Lyme Disease.
Lisa L. Nagy, MD Video $15.
(She is NOT A LLMD, however, she understands the kind of toxicity issues faced by many with lyme. She did not have lyme but overcame very serious MCS. She spoke at the recent ILADS conference.
It's a great presentation to see. The DVD can be ordered. Great detail about toxicity issues also here:
Many good links here -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
wow-keeb...i just saw a lot of faces i havent seen in a long time...it would have been great to be at that conference, huh?
so far i havent really found the propane link...but i do understand mcs-had them-did a lot of reading-cleaned out the house-got better and gradually have introduced stuff back that doesnt bother me
it would be really hard to switch back to oil heat...its gonna be 30 below tonight and in jan and feb it will be like that for weeks at a time...
i have a really good efficient vented heater for most of heat
it would be expensive to change stove over too...i hope i dont have to
i just went thru so much work to have an emf free sleeping room...now this
it seems to help to just keep exhaust fan on while cooking and then open windoew and air out room for 15 min after
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
im really having trouble with this site now...just wrote to you-got the message to use back button and it lost everything but thanks for your help...i really liked seeing so many familiar faces
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- lpkayak,
It's not the site, I don't use my PM function so you probably got bounced back.
There was no particular propane link but those links are so that you can contact the MCS experts and have a conversation with them about your situation.
Exhaust fan for gas stove top should go on top force before you turn on the burner. If too loud to tolerate, it can be turned way down while cooking but on again full force just before turning off the burner.
When turning on and off, that is when most of the stuff they add to the gas escapes. It's not the actual gas that is the problem as much as the stuff they put in to smell as an alert. That's the stuff that clobbers those with MCS.
I assume your water heater is also natural gas. Be sure that space is well vented each day, too.
Flushing the air at least once a day is important but on really cold winter days you probably don't need windows open for 15 minutes. If you have a good cross breeze, just a couple minutes of an air flush should be fine.
You just need the exchange the air, you don't want the walls and furniture to get cold or your heat bill can skyrocket.
People with MCS are advised to avoid natural gas appliances but, for many (and yourself), that is not practical.
Propane gas, though, is not the same as natural gas. IMO, propane much worse (even if vented) as the controls on some of the heaters are not at tight as those on natural gas appliances
but also the propane gas is just different than natural gas and seems to clobber harder (in a manner of speaking).
Be sure your liver support is in place and that you can exercise in the fresh air - even if just walking.
Good luck. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
no-water heater is elec
thanks for simplifying it for me
i am like a canary and seem to know as soon as there is a problem...
mytolerance level changes with my health and stress too
so again-thanks
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
While I know being exposed to propane is not a good idea, if you can detox with an FIR sauna, that will help you tolerate bad chemicals more easily. I am not as sensitive to chemicals after almost a year's use of FIR saunas.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
i do have a sauna
today i woke up feeling pretty good and went out for the mornign and really kept feeling good.
shortly after beign back inhouse tho i began to get sick. and i got worse all afternoon. it really seems to be the stove. the guy checked it-with soapsuds and a lighter!
but i smell it and react to it.
i am using 2 elec heaters now and have aired the house out but i am only in one room
the heater that is ventless is made to be ventless and is in the cdellar-thereare high =ceilings and some air flow and the guy taht installed it said it would be happy there. it nevere bothered me before.
i cant deal with feeling like i did today tho-its going below zero again and i am studk in this one room sleeping in the recliner. i won der if something happened to the stove when it was moved...but the guy couldnt find anything wrong!!!
it sets me back so much when i cant think...
maybe another service guy...a differnt one
i really appreciate your suggestions and help
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Propane for the most part is a very clean fuel and burns very clean. Safe to use indoors for heaters, cooking, and it passes for forklifts in warehousing.
I am willing to bet it is due to 'the move' that you mentioned. Moving is one of the most stressful things you can do.
Unburnt propane is different, want to make sure everything is burning efficiently.
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Propane may be okay for most but - for anyone with MCS - it is not recommended to be around that, or even natural gas.
Even vent-less heaters may really need to be vented.
The "guy checked it with soapsuds and a lighter!"
Was this your stove - or the propane heater?
Was it someone from the gas company? I would think they would have a gas meter. If not from the gas company, I would call them to come out and check.
You say you are getting ill from something in the house. The gas is the most important thing to consider - and consider again. I'd not rely on testing with soapsuds and a lighter. There has to be a better way to check.
What about mold?
Good luck. -
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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Propane is not found in nature in a gaseous state. Rather, it is a liquefied petroleum found in both gas and oil wells. The specific gravity of propane is 1.52, meaning it is heavier than air.
So unlike natural gas, which can harmlessly drift away in a light breeze, propane will sink to low points and remain there, making it more of a danger than natural gas. . . .
. . . Use in Heating Homes
� Using a ventless catalytic propane heater to warm your home is a dangerous proposition.
If windows are not left partially open to ensure ventilation, or if you fail to install a carbon monoxide (CO) detector that has a battery backup, occupants of the home may sleep through a device malfunction and never wake up.
Ventless Space Heaters
� Hunters and recreational campers often use portable, ventless propane heaters to warm their tents or campers, occasionally resulting in serious illness or death.
Some of the more expensive propane heaters come with a safety feature called an oxygen depletion sensor, which automatically turns the unit off if oxygen levels drop below a certain threshold.
When heaters without this safety feature are used, it is recommended to purchase a battery-powered CO sensor that will sound a shrieking alarm if oxygen levels drop to dangerous levels.
Propane Odor
� Propane itself is odorless and tasteless.
Because of the extreme danger of inhaling propane in your sleep and succumbing to its poison, manufacturers add an odorant to make the gas smell like rotten eggs.
But a hunter sound asleep in a closed tent may not notice any smell and can be quickly overtaken by the gas.
Even with a CO alarm in place, it is always a good idea to leave some tent flaps or camper windows open when heating with a ventless propane device . . . .
posted
Propane very very safe gas. It's no more dangerous then natural gas. Any gas is dangerous if you have defective piping, leaks, loose fittings ect.
I am the propane guy as I come form a family of propane dealership.
Propane is a liquefied petroleum gas, with a boiling point of -42C. Propane is nontoxic; however, when abused as an inhalant it poses a mild asphyxiation risk through oxygen deprivation. Propane is odorless by itself.
The toxic part of LP would come from the additive ethyl mercaptan which is the odorant added to propane and butane in the processing and refining process to provide a detectable odor.
If you are using a heating device burning propane sometimes the burners build up residue and you can smell the (rotten egg smell), ethyl mercaptan.
If you think you have a leak you can dilute some liquid detergent with water shake it so it's nice and bubbly and spray around all the connectors, valves, that contain your propane system. If it bubbles you know you have a leak.
Also if you have a propane supplier have them come out and preform a 10 min pressure test on the tank.
-------------------- HERX is a Four Letter Word! Posts: 716 | From If you're going through hell, keep going......Winston Churchill | Registered: Apr 2007
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
ok-too much for me to answer but i dont want you to worry about me
it is clearly the cooking stove not the heaters
the soapsuds is a common thing the propane guys do...even the ones that connect it that work for the delivery place...my friend shouldnt have done the lighter thing...he was doing it after the soap to show me there was nothing to worry about
my heaters have safety features so will turn off if not lit
i asked about an instument that would measure leakage and no one seems to have one(i'm kinda out in the boonies)
i used trial and error sort of thing to figure out it is definitely stove and it is worse when stove is on so i am pretty sure it is cuz the last movers were so ruff and trhere is some leakage...but not enough for explosion...i know the smell and it is there on and off but never strong-my detector works well
so thanks for concern...i'm not using stove til i get someone more capable here...i hope the microwave doesnt kill me before that!
thank you all for your help and caring!
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I scoffed at the soap suds not because that is not a valid thing (for what it checks) but it's just not enough of an exam, IMO.
There can be all kinds of things just not quite right with a unit that don't show up with just that soap bubble test of the connectors. In a stove, you can't see all the hoses and connectors to consider.
They should have tested the air, too.
As you've surmised that your stove has even a minor leak it's vital to have that addressed ASAP. Even when you are not using it, as you say, it's leaking.
That seemingly minor leak can kill, even when not in use. Yes, even when not in use.
Your "detector" works? What detector? I assume you mean your nose, your MCS ?
Don't count on it. If gas or the stuff they put in it overrides your nose and your brain, you can have a false sense of self-awareness regarding smells.
You can get used to a slow leak and it then becomes all the more deadly.
For the propane heater, is there a Carbon Monoxide detector / alarm installed at a couple places in your home? If not, it's really important.
Please, call the professionals. Keep the number of your fire department handy and plan escape routes for yourself and everyone else who may be in the home.
The best thing is to leave the building if you know there is a gas leak in your stove - and call the fire department. Really.
A spark of static electricity or the spark from a wall switch turning on could make everything go "boom" - even from a slow stove leak.
Can you afford months in a hospital burn unit?
Can you afford permanent brain or lung damage? That can happen from even a slow leak. -
[ 12-31-2011, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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If you smell EVEN THE TINIEST bit of natural gas in the air, leave immediately and inform your gas company! If you don�t know that number, dial emergency services, 9-1-1.
Do not use any electrical device, such as light switches, telephones or appliances such as garage door openers. They could spark and ignite the gas.
Do not use an open flame, matches or lighters.
Do not try to locate the source of the gas leak.
Do not try to shut off any gas valves or appliances.
Do not start vehicles.
Do not re-enter the building or return to the area until your gas company says it is safe. . . .
. . . It was a slow leak that had gone undetected for 3 years. . . .
. . . The gas company employee pointed out to me that the vent over my stove was not a vent at all. . . .
. . . The gas that leaked had no outlet, only the occasional opening and closing of an outside door. We had steeped ourselves in toxic natural gas for 3 full years! . . .
. . . Smoke, car fumes, perfume, formaldehyde related products and chemicals set off reactions of nausea, headaches or fatigue in all of the children. . . .
. . . the toxic effect of the gas on his nervous system. . . .
. . . Now, it is our turn to help others to heal.
We hope our story has helped you. -
[ 12-31-2011, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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6/2011 IgX: IGG: 31 IND, 41+++, 45+, 58+ IGM: 31+, 39 IND, 41 IND, 83-93 IND Band 31 confirmed to be Lyme epitope by Igenex 7/2011
8/2011 IgX: POSITIVE IGG: 31+, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41++, 45+, 58+ IGM: 31+, 34 IND, 39 IND, 41++, 83-93+ Posts: 169 | From Western Mass | Registered: May 2011
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
keeb...i do think it is that type of slow leak...but it only happens when i use the stove or oven
i havent used it in 2 days and i have had no sx
before thqat it clearly got worse to debilitaqting when i used stove or oven...the longer it was on the worse sick i got
i am going to get a liscenced gas guy here - stove is quite new but has been moved recently by some ruff guys-
if i keep getting sick from this i will have to switch to elec stove...but that will be expensive to get the new plug. but i will have to - i cant tolerate that sick feeling and obvious shouldnt...
thank you for your help
ok-i reread your posts...i get it. maybe there is a leak and i am getting used to it. like i said i'm gonna get someone here...the detector is smoke and carmon monoxide...it tests as if it will work...and the other night the smoke part went off from the toaster over so i think it is working but i understand it will not tell me if propane is leaking
and i just googled nd read ans saw i could buy a gas detector(not smoke or carbon monoxide-actual gas)---i have been asking about those and noone around here seems to know about them
on top of all this i am statting a new med and nausea and dizziness are side affects
so far when iget them it seems related to the med-when i taqke it...but i havent been able to uderstand the itchy wattery eyes-esp now-in nh...feels like hayfever but cant be.
i'm gonna make a big deal about this tomorrow and hope i can get someone here with a gas detector right away. tonight window is open and i am near outside door and away from stove
thanks for everything
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
oh no...no teflon pans. i found out about them a long time ago
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
Many evergreen (needle-leaf) trees pollinate in the Winter, so yes it could be hay fever.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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lpkayak
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posted
huh-i live up in the great north woods and never knew that...but there is more going on
yesterday we turned gas off to cook stove and small unvented heater and it took hours but i began to feel better. i am good this mroning. we will turn one on and see what happens...then the other
i am so glad my main heater - a newish rinaii - is working fine as it is zero and below now
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