Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
It seems the IDSA is being proven wrong again. Poor dears. Can someone please pass them a wet towel so they can get the egg slop off their face- again?
On Friday the 13th- here is a new study providing more proof that spirochetes CAN survive after long-term antibiotic treatment.
Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi in Rhesus Macaques following Antibiotic Treatment of Disseminated Infection.
PLoS ONE 7(1): e29914. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0029914
"Our studies do however offer proof of the principle that intact spirochetes can persist in an incidental host comparable to humans, following antibiotic therapy. Additionally, our experiments uncover residual antigen associated with inflammatory foci."
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Abstract
The persistence of symptoms in Lyme disease patients following antibiotic therapy, and their causes, continue to be a matter of intense controversy. The studies presented here explore antibiotic efficacy using nonhuman primates.
Rhesus macaques were infected with B. burgdorferi and a portion received aggressive antibiotic therapy 4�6 months later.
Multiple methods were utilized for detection of residual organisms, including the feeding of lab-reared ticks on monkeys (xenodiagnosis), culture, immunofluorescence and PCR.
Antibody responses to the B. burgdorferi-specific C6 diagnostic peptide were measured longitudinally and declined in all treated animals.
B. burgdorferi antigen, DNA and RNA were detected in the tissues of treated animals.
Finally, small numbers of intact spirochetes were recovered by xenodiagnosis from treated monkeys.
These results demonstrate that B. burgdorferi can withstand antibiotic treatment, administered post-dissemination, in a primate host.
Though B. burgdorferi is not known to possess resistance mechanisms and is susceptible to the standard antibiotics (doxycycline, ceftriaxone) in vitro, it appears to become tolerant post-dissemination in the primate host.
This finding raises important questions about the pathogenicity of antibiotic-tolerant persisters and whether or not they can contribute to symptoms post-treatment.
Rivendell
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19922
posted
Good info. Pamel Weintraub talked about that in her book. The more studies proving this the better.
Posts: 1358 | From Midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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BackinStOlaf
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Then why the hell are we on antibiotics anyway? *sigh*
-------------------- First Symptom 9/09 Multiple docs, negative Labcorp test LLMD: 1/10 Positive Igenex/CDC test Treatment 2/10 2/10-8/10 Amox, ceftin, zith, flagyl Currently: Bicillin, Minocycline, still dealing with severe breathing issues
Posts: 1121 | From New York, New York | Registered: Dec 2009
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nefferdun
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posted
Poor monkeys. Will it really change anyone's mind that does not want to believe it? They have found living spirochetes in the brains of humans but that did not change anything. Why don't they conduct a trial on Steere and some of his cronies instead?
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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Rivendell
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posted
BackinStOlaf, for many people, antibiotics will do the trick. Others get better on antibiotics, then get worse again, when they go off the antibiotics. After lengthy treatment then, these people usually will do well staying on a low dose regimen of Doxy or some other antibiotic for the rest of their life.
Pamela Weintraub in her book "Cure Unkown" talks about the roller coaster ride of on again and off again antibiotics. Finally, her doctor, Dr. B, told her to pulse the antibiotics. Going off of them, hitting bottom, then blasting them with antibiotics until she felt better. Then repeating the cycle by going off the antibiotics.
I guess each time she did this, more spirochetes that were hidden in her body came out and were killed by the antibiotic, until after three times when they were gone for good. She hasn't been sick since. Dr. B said that is how he got well.
But Pam is quick to point out that it worked for her and that each person is genetically different and each person may have a different strain of Lyme. She is not recommending that approach for everyone. She sayd to follow what your doctor says.
What I'm saying is what I have read here and there. I am not a doctor. Just feeling chatty this morning.
Posts: 1358 | From Midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Roy Clark, country singer, was a friend of mine years ago. He use to come to the bank's drive in window where I worked when I was 17 years old to purposely torment me by coming through on sunny, beautiful days in his shiny red caddy with the top down.
As he passed by the speaker he would toot his horn, wave real big and say, "too bad you are stuck in there and I am out here having fun!"
Then he would drive off, waving and laughing.
He sang a song years ago that wasn't in anticipation of this moment, or to be used to describe our relationship with the IDSA, but you may enjoy it anyhow. I did.
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Here are a few interesting and important quotes...
"The ospC gene was amplified from skin biopsy tissue from each animal in at least one of the four samplings (Figure 6A) shortly after inoculation.
These results confirmed infection and specific detection by the ospC PCR method.
The detection of B. burgdorferi nucleic acids by PCR was also performed on xenodiagnostic tick midgut samples (Figure 6B).
For treated animal FK38, spirochetal DNA was detected by amplification of ospC from midgut contents when organisms were not detected by culture or DFA (Figure 6B)."
[MY note- Indicating and confirming, among other points, what we've been saying all along... even their best tests are NOT reliable in detecting spirochetal presence in all cases.]
`````````````````````````````````````````` This is very interesting...
"A few spirochetes grew in cultures of organ tissues collected post-mortem from each animal after >9 weeks, but we were unable to subculture any spirochetes from either treated or untreated animals due to their slow growth."
"...Transcription was detected in culture pellets and the tissues of treated animals, indicating that the bacteria were metabolically active (Figure 6C, D). Figure 6D shows ospA transcription detected directly in tissues harvested from treated and untreated animals."
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
And this...
"The fact that organisms can persist in the presence of antibiotics such as penicillin and cephalosporins (ceftriaxone) that interfere with cell wall synthesis appears to stem from their ability to enter a dormant, non-dividing state [43], [44], thus avoiding the need for cell wall synthesis to continue growth."
Tincup
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Member # 5829
posted
"To date, the C6 ELISA is the only test in which a decline in antibody titer is statistically associated with outcome of antibiotic treatment [8], [46], [47].
In accord with this finding, we observed a distinct and rapid decline in C6 titer in all antibiotic-treated animals.
Not all animals, however, were spirochete-free, so the question of what facet of infection is indicated by anti-C6 antibody titers was brought to the fore."
Dogsandcats
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 28544
posted
I wonder if this could all be pasted on their Facebook page....probably deleted by one of the minions within seconds...
-------------------- God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.
Billy Graham Posts: 1967 | From California | Registered: Oct 2010
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Amanda
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posted
Tincup
do you mind re-posting the link? I get an error message when I go there.
Are these the same researchers that dd the mouse study?
I find it remarkable that not only did they find remnants of teh bacteria in organs, and not only that the bacteria were active, but that the bcteria were active enough that when ticks fed on the monkeys, the ticks picked up the disease (though, how do they know ticks were free of disease before the fed on monkeys?)
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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fflutterby
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posted
I get an error also
-------------------- Psalm 46 1 God is our refuge and strength Posts: 1367 | From North Jersey | Registered: Sep 2010
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Tincup
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