Topic: dental implant / root canal connection to Lyme?
dbpei
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Member # 33574
posted
I keep trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together with my illness. So many problems began for me following a failed root canal and subsequent dental implant I had 3 years ago.
Following that implant, I had migrating jaw and dental pain that subsided until starting ABX 2 months ago. Before knowing I had Lyme Disease, I went to my dentist and oral surgeon and both said the x-rays looked fine.
It is interesting that my gum is all black and discolored from the trauma of the surgery and does not look 'fine' at all.
I am just curious to see if any of you have experienced or continue to experience gum pain and tooth sensitivity with this illness. My guess is that there are some spirochetes that have made their home in my jaw - a weak pont. Hopefully the ABX will zap them at some point.
Posts: 2386 | From New England | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
I have a related question - 5 months ago I let my dentist put a crown on a rear molar - the tooth feels like it is radiating some kind of aura - we've tried temp and permanent crowns with temp and permanent cements and it doesn't get any better- the radiation comes and goes during the day and is unrelated to temperature or pressure - now they say my only option is a root canal ...I have another crown that is a couple of years old with no problems so this is a mystery...should I get the root canal?
Posts: 277 | From NY | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I have had jaw pain and a radiating burning feeling on the lower jaw area, where I have a root canal, for several years. Several dentists, oral surgeons and endodontists said my X-rays were fine.
He looked at my x-rays and examined me and asked questions for at least an hour. He found that there was clearly a root remnant left in my jaw from a wisdom tooth extraction 14 years ago.
He referred me to a good Oral Surgeon who did a cone CT. Sure enough, the root remnant has a cyst around it, which may be infection. I have it removed next week.
So, just like regular Dr's, you have to take what some dentists say is "normal" with a grain of salt. You know your body. If something doesn't feel right, keep searching for answers.
As far as getting another root canal, I hope others will chime it.
-------------------- aperture Posts: 551 | From Louisville, KY | Registered: Nov 2011
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jackie51
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There are a lot of threads regarding dentistry on lymenet. There is controversy there similar to lyme.
If I had known years ago what I know now, I would never get a root canal.
dp--tmj is a symptom of lyme, many here have that. It sounds like you need a professional second opinion. Yes, lyme loves the jaw and root canaled.
DanP--not sure why this is happening, maybe you are sensitive to the material and/or cement or maybe there is incompatibility somewhere. Did you investigate getting the tool pulled versus a root canal? If you could do that without teeth shifting and without needing an implant, that would be worth looking into. Of course, then there's the cavitation issue from a pulled tooth.
Lots to learn in the dental field. Good luck.
Posts: 1374 | From Crazy Town | Registered: Dec 2007
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jackie51
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posted
Gosh, how could I forget? Look into www.oilpulling.com. Draw your own conclusion.
Posts: 1374 | From Crazy Town | Registered: Dec 2007
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dbpei
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 33574
posted
Thanks for your responses. Yes, Jackie. I have tried oil pulling. I am just so grossed out by it - especially first thing when I wake up. I think it has helped, though. I am going to try sunflower oil instead of sesame oil and see if it is easier to tolerate.
DanP - I wonder if the sensation you are experiencing might be related to mercury in your mouth. Aperture's website gives you a way of locating a more Lyme friendly dentist in your area.
Aperture, that is an amazing story. What is a cone CT? Please keep me posted on how everything turns out - and whether you notice a difference in your symptoms. Good luck!
Posts: 2386 | From New England | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
I had a similiar experience with a "failed" root canal and jaw swelling pain for years that only cleared up with ABX treatment started for Lyme. I had oral sx to remove this tooth, and the surgeon opened it and showed me an area of infection still present in the tooth. I had all the mercury amalgrams removed from my mouth, and would not consider another root canal or implant, etcc... investigate biologic dentistry for yourself and your loved ones....
Posts: 143 | From Louisville KY | Registered: May 2010
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posted
Hi Dbpei: I've been wanting to respond to your post for a few days now. It's hard for me to write very much but I really feel called to, so I'll do my best.
Please look into jaw cavitations. I did a quick search to give you some brief info:
There are other sources, but those were the first I found that looked helpful on a basic level. Also, in the book "Radical Medicine" there is a section that goes into depth on jaw cavitations.
The short version is that unless a dental surgeon REALLY knows what they are doing, when a tooth is pulled (like wisdom teeth) or a root canal is done, they may neglect to remove all sections of the periodontal membrane.
When that happens, it keeps the area from healing correctly which causes a big empty space in there, and eventually it's a huge breeding ground for infection.
A jaw cavitation, in clearer terms is a bone infection. The root canal or tooth extraction allowed an infection to get into the bone, and you will actually have gangrenous material in the bone.
In any other bone, this would cause red flags and huge infection signs, but in the jaw it can be a silent infection...although many do have signs such as yours that something is wrong.
This leads to much more than just jaw pain or mouth issues though. Basically this sort of dead infected tissue poisons you and can cause many many issues.
I know alittle more about this than I would like to because I'm in the midst of having jaw cavitation surgeries myself right now.
I have many severe neurological symptoms (seizures, myoclonus, etc.), and my doctor basically figured out that none of the other treatments were making headway because this was such an issue. The infection is poisoning my nervous system.
So far my cavitations have been some of the worst that the surgeon has seen, and the infections actually surround the trigeminal nerve in my jaw -- providing a direct route for the toxins to get into my brain.
It's HUGELY important to see a dentist who is an expert in jaw cavitation surgeries if you do this, because they can be done incorrectly too, and the infection will just return if that is the case.
If you want more info, I can help with that a bit. I hope this helps.
I hope this isn't overwhelming -- I obviously don't know your situation or whether this is definitely the issue, but honestly from your description and what I've been experiencing, I wouldn't doubt it.
The dead tissue they extract from my jaw is often black -- because it's dead. They have also extracted fatty cysts from the cavitations...these are all signs of infection.
Posts: 232 | From Oregon | Registered: May 2010
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Please don't get a root canal. I had them and they all had to go for me to get well.
I have posted on the dental subject for all the years I have been here.
All root canals fail, sooner or later.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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TF
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Member # 14183
posted
DanP, I suggest you don't get the root canal. I believe that you could continue to have the same problem even after the root canal. This is based on my experience. This all assumes that you have lyme disease.
Before I knew I had lyme, I went to my dentist for pain in my jaw, around 2 back molars. The pain was extreme. However, I could not pinpoint one tooth that hurt. It hurt around 2 teeth.
He could not find anything wrong with either of the teeth. Neither tooth was sensitive to his various tests. Because the pain was so terrible, he finally decided to do a root canal on one of the molars. (the pain was so bad that I agreed. I needed relief.) The root canal did nothing to help the pain.
Then, he did a root canal on the other tooth, assuming it must be the culprit. Again, that did nothing to stop the pain.
Then, he threw up his hands and yelled, "No more root canals!" and sent me to an oral surgeon in a major city.
That surgeon studied the dental x-rays, said the 2 root canals were well done, and after talking to me said that my problem was "inflammation."
I told him that cold, rainy days made the pain worse. He said that was correct. He had me take the maximum number of Advil per day plus I still needed narcotic pain killers just to try to handle the pain.
It felt like liquid fire was flowing down my jawbone. The pain was so bad, when I went to the dentist's office I would say, "Just cut it off here" and make a sign of cutting across my neck. I wanted my head cut off.
The surgeon said that my pain probably would not go away until warm weather came. He was right. I suffered until the cold weather was over--at least 5 months.
Now I know that I had lyme during that time and that lyme causes all types of dental pain and inflammation anywhere.
So, I got 2 unnecessary root canals. I really wish I had known then what I know now. The dentist could NOT believe that I still had pain in that area of my jaw after the nerves of both of those teeth were removed. He didn't think it was possible.
But, with lyme, this is very, very possible. Lyme can give you nerve pain in any part of your body, and nothing will make it go away except getting rid of the lyme. The nerve that is being inflammed may be in your jaw and not in that tooth as you both suppose, so root canals won't do a thing.
I have since given my dentist articles and lists of symptoms regarding the dental effects of lyme. He wants to know what lyme is capable of doing when it comes to the mouth so that he can consider this possibility if he ever gets another case like mine.
See if you can figure out a way to endure until warm weather. Resist having more dental work done as, if lyme is the cause, it is unlikely to help at all. It could just be a waste of money.
A root canal is an irrevocable decision and may lead to you having to make other undesirable decisions later on (like removal of the tooth, etc.).
If you still have the problem when warm weather comes, then maybe reconsider.
For now, try seeing an oral surgeon for another opinion (to be sure the tooth is not slightly cracked or any other cause for this symptom). An oral surgeon once found a slight crack and even pus at the root of a tooth of my husband's that the dentist was unable to detect.
Also, try high doses of anti-inflammatories. Expect this to take a few weeks or more to help.
I wish you the best.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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dbpei
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Hi LymeAware,
Thank you for writing. It is very frightening to learn about this. Now I may have 2 conditions that the medical professionals are ignorant about.
I am going to call a biological dentist in my area on Monday to see if I can get a consult. I will inquire about possibility of a jaw bone cavitation diagnosis and treatment.
I can't imagine having to go through anymore dental work or surgery. I was so traumatized by the past work I had done. I had recently been so happy because I found a dentist who uses nitrous oxide to help with my newly acquired dental anxiety.
Sometime, it would be helpful if you could share with me your Lyme story and how your jaw/dental symptoms played a part. How and when you were able to put the pieces of the puzzle together...
Have you suffered any hearing or vestibular damage, aural fullness, tinnitus, sound sensitivity or distortion? I have always had the feeling that these symptoms were related to something that went wrong with my dental work.
Back to square one... What an exhausting journey this is. Thanks again for taking the time and energy to write. Your advice could be a turning point in my healing.
Posts: 2386 | From New England | Registered: Aug 2011
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Hi Dbpei: I'm sorry for how scary this all can be -- believe me, I definitely understand! I do hope that it may help you in this healing process, as I know it can be such a confusing and difficult one to navigate.
I hope to write much more soon -- at the moment we're about to leave to have my next surgery, so a bit chaotic at the moment. Hope to spend some more time with you soon.
If you do find you have specific questions do let me know and I'll try to respond to those.
Yes, I do have some ear issues. It's so hard for me to know what is from the cavitations and what is unrelated, but it does seem to follow that it would have a strong effect. I have ear fullness and constant "plugged up" ears, tinnitus, and some sound sensitivities.
I really hear you on the difficulty of the prospect of dental work. Dental stuff is some of my least favorite, so was definitely not looking forward. But, my surgeon is, according to my LLMD the "best in the country" for this, so I really trust him and feel good with him. That makes a difference.
I do want to tell you that it really really makes a difference who you see for the surgery.
Even if someone "will do" cavitation surgery, it doesn't necessarily mean they are experts at it. Cavitations can have many tunnels and fine areas that are hard to access...or even realize they are there. If even one small tiny portion of the infection is left in there, the infection will return.
I'm not trying to scare you or anything...only to say that if this is something you do invest in, I certainly wouldn't want you to have to do it again. My doctor gave me the names of 2 dentists -- one in the US (west coast) and one in Canada (western). These were the only dentists he trusted to do it correctly.
Obviously others use other dentists and I really can't say if someone else could be just fine, but for sure make sure you know if the person you see is good. What is their rate of re-infection?
I'm thinking of you a lot -- as this process is one I've been going through very recently myself! I'll be back to share more when I can, but will be recovering this week from surgery. I'll check in here though and do want to be a support to you!
Best wishes!
Posts: 232 | From Oregon | Registered: May 2010
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manybites
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My biologic dentist is the BEST IN NORTH AMERIKA.HE used all the machines and excellent X RAY machine to see the infections but ONLY When he removed the tooth he saw the infections himself.
ONE WORD.He said WHOEVER DOES MORE WORK in THE MOUTH IS SICKER .ANd he has been a surgeon for decades. If I have had spare myself to root canals , crawns and bone crafting THAT WOULD HAVE SAVD ME $$$$$$$$$$. I did not knew I have had lyme and coinfection. WHEN I Started the first attempt to do the first crawn to FIX my TMJ that I was complaining and fix my bite THE PROBLEMS STARTED. ALL THESE INJECTIONS THAT you do for the work can not be detoxed and you are putting in your head more toxins that need to be released. I USED TO HAVE headaches whenever I have had dental work done.I WISH I have had not touch them or just REMOVE as all the root canals over time created cavitations .
GO for treating the infections before you do anything with your mouth.
Posts: 1379 | From disable | Registered: Aug 2011
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dbpei
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LymeAware - best of luck with your surgery and thank you for writing.
This is all so overwhelming. I have been doing the oil pulling and think it is helping in many ways. I will go to a biological dentist at some point, but not sure I want to put myself through a lot of unnecessary surgery.
Do you know anything about ozone treatment for calvitations?
Posts: 2386 | From New England | Registered: Aug 2011
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When I have the surgeries done they inject me with ozone at the same time, and also during the recovery afterward to help clear out the infection. I think they also put some sort of ozone gel in the cavitation itself.
I would think that it would be helpful certainly. Surely something to consider. But if you do have a cavitation, and it is serious, the only way to get it out is to have it taken out. It also depends on the severity of your symptoms and how much you feel can be attributed to the cavitation.
And certainly consult with a knowledgeable doctor about it, as I am only just learning about all this
But, they can be very serious. To my surprise, when i had my mid-December appt with my LLMD, when it became clear what an issue this was for me, and my symptoms were so strong, he told me that it was urgent I have the surgery done within the next week (this was the week before Christmas, so we were alittle stressed out by the sudden news).
Basically my schedule since then has been to have each successive one done as soon as the previous one healed. I have 4 to do total, and today's will be my 3rd.
He made very clear to me that these were poisoning my nervous system and needed to be taken care of. I normally would totally shy away from ANY sort of surgery, but I trust him, so off we went.
So, I want you to have that info...but, with that said I totally do understand that having surgery is a big deal. (Believe me, I understand...haha).
And, there are certainly people who don't have surgery who do have cavitations. It's just a matter of how severe they are, and how much they are affecting you.
In my case, my doc feels that these are presenting a strong block to any other treatment they might offer me. One of his signs that I needed this done was that I had minimal benefit from prior treatment, and very severe herx reactions to even the mildest of anti-microbials.
That showed him that there was something else in the picture blocking our ability to treat me, and that ended up being the cavitation. Particularly since the surgeon has said that my cavitations are so serious, it's clear that my doc was right, and the consensus is that after I have these done, my treatment won't be blocked...so I'll be able to make better headway.
I hope that makes sense. So obviously it's an individual thing. Listen to your body, and your own wisdom, and you'll know
Best wishes, and lots of healing to you.
Posts: 232 | From Oregon | Registered: May 2010
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dbpei
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Thank you for getting back to me. It is a good sign that you can write on your first day after surgery!
It sounds like you have a very experienced and gifted LLMD. When I visit mine again in a few weeks, I will tell her about what I have learned from you and see what she thinks.
When I started my ABX, I felt worse than I had before the treatment. Nausea, aches and pains and general malaise. But I was not bed ridden.
Now, after 2 1/2 months of treatment, I am mostly just tired with occasional bad days. My dental pain comes and goes but is not severe. And from what I have read on this forum, dental and jaw pain are very common symptoms with Lyme.
It is the internal head shaking and vibrations in my hands and feet that are the most worrisome symptoms to me because they seem neurological.
The tinnitus is horrible and does not seem to be getting any better - but fortunately, some days are not as bad. My hearing has improved but is still very distorted (sounds come across "tinny") and my balance is still impaired.
I don't know how long I have had Lyme, but it could be several years... So we all know that means a long road to recovery. The more knowledge I have, the more power - so thank you. I wish you well and hope you will keep us posted on how you are doing.
Posts: 2386 | From New England | Registered: Aug 2011
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Hi dbpei, sorry for the long pause in my response. When I wrote before we had finished our trip up to the surgeon but I actually hadn't had the surgery yet. It's been a rough week since then, but I'm hoping things are improving now.
It sounds like symptoms have been very difficult for you -- I really hope you are able to get support in whatever option you choose.
If you are interested in learning more about the cavitation surgery I would suggest getting the book, "Radical Medicine". It has a good section in there. This may help you have a better sense if it's something you want to pursue.
I know that for me, although I have had some jaw pain and tension, most of my symptoms are more systemic. I NEVER would have thought of jaw cavitations and when my doc brought it up it felt completely random.
My biggest symptoms, and the issues that affect me the most are seizures and myoclonus -- with a lot of shaking all over. My doctor feels that these surgeries will help make a big impact with these symptoms, as the infections in my jaw are basically poisoning my nervous system.
So, this is to say that certainly cavitations affect much more than just the jaw. However, I have heard, as you have, that jaw and dental issues are very prevalent in those with lyme. And, as others have said, some find their symptoms improve dramatically after just treatment for lyme.
In my case, the cavitations are acting as a block to my further lyme treatment. So, I'm hoping to make better gains after they have healed.
Best wishes to you in your process and let me know if I can help. Whatever you choose, I hope you experience good healing!
Posts: 232 | From Oregon | Registered: May 2010
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I just had Oral Surgery last week to have a root remnant removed from my jaw.
I went ahead and had them remove a root canaled tooth, and its periodontal ligament, as well.
The Oral Surgeon thought I was nuts wanting to have a "perfectly good root canalled/crowned tooth pulled".
I had IV sedation and Nitrous Oxide since they were doing the jaw surgery also.
I'm terrified of anesthesia and hate the groggy feeling of general anesthesia, but I have to say the IV sedation was different. It was a very good experience.
I was just really relaxed and sleepy.
I plan to have my last root canalled tooth removed in the near future. Since it isn't much worse than having a regular extraction, I plan to just have Nitrous Oxide to save $.
-------------------- aperture Posts: 551 | From Louisville, KY | Registered: Nov 2011
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I had local anesthesia, I wasn't put under. Mine was for cavitation surgery, not for what you are discussing, but I would think that cavitation surgery would be more extensive.
So, I think it's certainly possible to not be "put under" if you don't want that. I would ask the surgeon about the options though since obviously I don't know for sure.
Posts: 232 | From Oregon | Registered: May 2010
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dbpei
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Member # 33574
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You are all very brave! I hope that you begin to notice some improvement in your symptoms after all you have been through.
I have been continuing with the oil pulling first thing in the morning and it is hard to believe, but the sensitivity/pain in my gums has disappeared. It could be that in a week or two, the spirochetes will wreak their havoc again in that area, but I am hoping for the best.
I also went to a new LL NP (she suffered Lyme for 10 years - now symptom free - and was treated and trained by Dr. Burrascano) who believes that I would have a better response to treatment if I was on IV meds to cross the blood brain barrier. I am scared about this but will discuss further after results of brain spect scan and more blood work.
Please keep me posted on your progress. Just curious, have either of you ever been treated with IV ABX as opposed to oral?
Posts: 2386 | From New England | Registered: Aug 2011
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I'm so glad to hear that the oil pulling is helping! That's truly wonderful news. I hope it continues to keep the pain away and lower the toxins in your mouth. How great.
I haven't really used antibiotics as a main treatment modality. So no, no IV abx for me...and no longterm orals either.
Best wishes in making your decision, and I hope it all helps make a wonderful difference for you.
Posts: 232 | From Oregon | Registered: May 2010
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I'll be back to share more when I can, but will be recovering this week from surgery. I'll check in here though and do want to be a support to you!
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