posted
I'd really appreciate some help guys. Thanks so much. I've tried searching but i'm beyond confused. Just tested positive for Babesia Duncani and I'd like to treat it correctly the first time.
Can you take the herbs and Meds together this way? Is this the best treatment and should I add anything?
I was prescribed Mepron and Zith. What is the correct amount to take in your opinon?
and I saw here..He's recommending mixing the sida acuta and crypto. I just can't find anything about if it's okay to take with the Mepron and Zithro.
Thanks again to those that will respond and help.
Posts: 105 | From east | Registered: Nov 2008
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blinkie
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My opinion is...stack things on top of one another and keep it treatment going as long as possible. 1-2 years is what I would do if I could do it over.
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TF
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Page 24 of Burrascano:
"Because of these dismal statistics, the current regimen of choice for Babesiosis is the combination of atovaquone (Mepron, Malarone), 750 mg bid, plus an erythromycin-type drug, such as azithromycin (Zithromax), clarithromycin (Biaxin), or telithromycin (Ketek) in standard doses." (page 24)
I recommend that every lyme patient STUDY the Burrascano Guidelines. This way, you get the opinion of the foremost lyme doctor in the world. That opinion means a lot.
The section on babesiosis starts on page 22. It is just a few pages to read.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
^Thanks. I've seen that, but things move so fast. I know a lot is already outdated.
I just want to make sure you can take all that with the herbs.
Any more opinions. Please?
I need to do this right the first time.
Posts: 105 | From east | Registered: Nov 2008
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TF
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posted
Burrascano is not outdated. You asked for the correct amount of mepron and zith. That is it. Then, he goes on to say:
"Treatment failures usually are related to inadequate atovaquone levels. Therefore, patients who are not cured with this regimen can be retreated with higher doses (and atovaquone blood levels can be checked), as this has proven effective in many of my patients. Artemesia (a nonprescription herb) should be added in all cases. Metronidazole or Bactrim can also be added to increase efficacy, but there is minimal clinical data on how much more effective this will be."
It takes time to answer questions, so please don't ask questions that you really don't want answers to.
Look at this thread to see how a top doc is treating a person for babs:
There is no such thing as doing it right the first time. So much of treatment of tick-borne diseases is trial and error.
So, you start with the amounts Burrascano states and then if you do not succeed, you test mepron levels and raise the amount of mepron you are taking.
The herbs are not curative. It is the mepron that kills the babs.
Here are the notes I took from the talk given by Dr. H on babs at the recent Lyme Conference in Toronto. You may be able to glean something from them.
No source is going to exactly answer your question regarding what is the best treatment! Whoever knew that would win a Nobel Prize.
My notes:
2011 ILADS Conference, Toronto, Canada
Lyme & Babesiosis: Updates on Treatment & Diagnosis 2011
Dr. H 10/28/11
He has 20 years of experience treating lyme; >12,000 chronic patients He was in France and China discussing babesiosis. Talked with Chinese CDC regarding parasites
Some of his patients get better with glutathione alone. It opens up the detox pathways (is an anti-oxidant)
Borrelia miyamotoi is showing up in ticks in Hyde Park, NY. This strain is in Japan. We can�t test for it.
There is a new ehrlichia species also found.
Indicators of bad outcome with babesiosis:
male sex, extremely high WBC
We see blood transfusion babesiosis in California. WA-1 is now in the Northeast U.S.. It is found along the entire eastern seaboard. It is difficult to get a positive test for it. LabCorp has a WA-1 test. The FISH through Igenex is also very useful.
He treats with clindamycin with azithromycin, also Mepron, then malarone. There is lots of Mepron resistance. So, he adds Septra (Bactrim). This works well. Also, he uses much higher doses of Mepron due to the Mepron resistance.
He uses coartem (which has Artemisinin in it) Dosage is 4 twice per day. Take at 7 a.m. and 3 p.m.; then switch to 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. It can be pulsed once per month.
You can�t combine this with any med that affects the QT interval.
Babs is spreading world-wide. Babs also suppresses the immune system (based on a study of b. microti)
Artemisinin is not as effective now as it was in the past. Use art when coartem doesn�t cure the person. He no longer uses ketek.
Beta blockers (blood pressure medicines) control these types of parasites. So, use them as an antagonist. We need a study on this. Heparin may also inhibit babs. Need a large study on this.
Curcumin (a herb)--he is now using it to treat babs. Published studies show it is useful for malaria.
Cryptolepis has been used in Africa for malaria. There is a published study in Ghana. It had a 93% cure rate (a 50% cure rate in 3 days; 90% cure rate in 7 days) You can get it at: www.woodlandessence.com
If adrenal function is low (patient has a low cortisol), they will not respond to antibiotics.
He told of a patient with intractable babs. They were treated for babs for 5 years and were not cured. Then, he gave them 1 teaspoon of cryptolepis 3 times per day with Byron White herbs. This is making the patient feel well. He hasn�t found any side effects with the cryptolepis. It may not be curative. It lowers the parasite load and strengthens the patient�s immune system.
Brucellosis also causes night sweats, so check for this in a patient with night sweats.
Use malarone for the patient who can�t clear babs. Low dose to maintain them.
We need new treatment options for babs. [end of notes]
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
I hope your plan will work for you, but I am not overly optimistic.
I think it greatly depends on how long you have had this infection.
I would start with the mepron and zith only. Then in a month or two add in cryptolepis then sida acuta.
Hubby seems to have problems with the cryptolepis causing burning in the back of his head. He doesn't always have this reaction, but for him that herb can cause more side effects than help.
I would probably add some form of art to your list -- that herb needs to be pulsed.
And as time goes on you will most likely need to pulse in additional babs meds or herbs in my opinion.
Just pay attention to your babs symptoms and if they seem to be getting worse or not improving then switch up meds over time.
Hubby should be released from the hospital today and we are trying to figure out a new babs protocol for him. After 14 months of malarone plus many other meds and herbs it is still there per a live blood analysis.
Hubby is one of the lucky ones who do not really herx from babs meds but just feels better. But off those meds or on too low a dose once the infection becomes active he ends up in the ER and hospital with crazy neuro symptoms. we were kind of blindsided by this severe babs attack.
I am absolutely convinced that babs can and dose hide out in the liver. Treating that stage is often overlooked and can be a big mistake. Next time around we will finish up with primaquine and chloroquine whether or not the doc will prescribe them.
Another thing I have noticed that many of the docs do not seem to be aware of -- LDN seems to be hard for babs patients to tolerate. I am not sure if it tries to help the immune system fight babs or if it just chases the infection out of hiding. My suggestion would be to add that med when you think you are done treating babs to see if you get a reaction.
This is not medical advice, just my opinion based on hubby's experiences.
Taking the herbs and meds you listed together should not be a problem.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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bcb1200
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I agree with TF except for the malarone dose. The NEW dose is 2 tsp 2 x per day. That is twice the normal amount and it is nOw needed because of resistance.
You can definitely take crypto with Mepron and zith. I know as I take it with Mepron and biaxin xl.
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Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3134 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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I went on the Buhner site and that's where I saw the info on the new babs treatment being the mix of crypto with sida acuta.
also Bea i saw you think I should add art, but from what i've read this week it looks like they're not really recommending it anymore. Also I read that the crypto will give you all the same results as it but it's easier on your liver.
And Bea you say "I would start with the mepron and zith only. Then in a month or two add in cryptolepis then sida acuta. "
any reason for that? That's kind of what I'm interested in hearing opinions on if you should just take it all at once or ease into it.
Thanks again.
Posts: 105 | From east | Registered: Nov 2008
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An ER doc recently asked hubby why do they not just give you something that would kill out all the babesia at once and then be done with it.
2 reasons -- First you might not live to tell about it if that were possible. Secondly I do not think such a med exists.
You probably won't read about it too much on LymeNet, but there are people who end up requiring oxygen or even require blood transfusions to get thru babesia treatment.
If you have never treated babesia before you have no idea how high an infectious load you have or how bad the die - off or herx reaction will be.
When hubby was a patient of the Dr B back in 2003 he started him on 1/2 dose of mepron every other day. Hubby had what we thought at that time was a severe allergic reaction.
He had a full body rash with welts and turned beet red all over. He gained 10 pounds of fluid weight overnight. The skin on his fingers and ear lobes peeled off. But he did not get the rash until day 10.
But finally after many years and other unsucessful attempts to treat babs we found a doc who was willing to prescribe malarone. Hubby did get a very mild rash on that med but was able to decrease the dose for awhile and eventually stayed on that med for 14 months.
We were pretty sure he still had babesia, but we stopped meds for 45 days to do some testing. A 5 day med challenge including a loading dose of lariam put hubby in the hospital for 3 days. He just got out today. The ER doc thought he had had a stroke based on a head CT. But the neurologist agreed with hubby and I that it was not a stroke.
Hubby symptoms were nausea, dry heaves, severe vomiting, severe sweating and the neurological symptoms of full body tremors, myoclonus and dystonia plus severe mental confusion. For hubby these are all babesia symptoms. I put him back on malarone and sida acuta while in the hospital and most of the neuro symptoms have resolved. All the G.I. symptoms have most likely caused gastritis which will take a while to heal.
Hubby's RBC and hemoglobin and hematocrit all dropped significantly -- comparing his routine bloodwork last Friday to his hospital bloodwork this morning.
Not everyone has such severe reactions of course, but this is why I say to start slow and ramp up gradually.
This is not medical advice, just my opinion based on hubby's experiences.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Thanks for the info Bea. I hope your Hubby is getting a little relief sometimes. I know it's tough. I hope you're holding up as well.
I will look into ramping up.
If anyone else has opinion on ramping up vs going all in let me know. Thanks a lot.
Posts: 105 | From east | Registered: Nov 2008
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nonna05
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posted
you are saying Normal dose for mepron is now 2tsb. x's2 a day????
this I have not seen before
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Sammi
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I agree with the other posters about not starting everything at the same time. You don't want to overload your system all at once.
I have a severe case of Babesiosis. For me, Cryptolepsis does nothing. Zhang's Artemisiae works very well for me, whereas other brands do not.
Some people have a good response to A-BAB. I could not tolerate it even at the lowest dose.
Everyone is different, so what works for some may not work for others. I hope you have a knowledgeable doctor guiding your treatment.
Posts: 4681 | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
I also agree with the ramping up. This way you can tell what is working, and if you are having any side effects and what the cause might be. It's always important, with any drug or herb, to add one at a time slowly (weeks in between).
I don't want to scare you about babesia treatment, so I'm going to tell you my experience. I've been treating babesia for going on two and a half years. I have not herxed much at all on Mepron/Zith, but only gotten better. I improved 75% in nine months on these meds. Don't expect to see results quickly. I didn't notice anything until six months into treatment.
Not everyone has the challenges that Bea's husband faces. Unfortunately, that is an extreme case and we can learn from all that they have endured.
Posts: 964 | From san diego | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
nonna, yes, Mepron must be ramped up to 2 tsp. twice a day. Most treatment starts at one tsp. twice a day, and after a month or two is ramped up. My doctor has even said that some do 3 tsp. bid, but I never required that dose.
Also, for those just starting Mepron, you may experience the blues at some point in treatment. If this happens, just back down for a day or two, and then restart. That helped me, and I never had that experience again.
Posts: 964 | From san diego | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
thanks guys. Okay everything showed up today in the mail/from pharmacy.
It says Mepron 1tsp 2X a day.
with Zithromax 250mg 2X a day (do you have to do this everyday) or can you pulse it?
And I have Sida Acuta and Crypto (which it sounds like I'll hold off for a bit)
**my doc doesn't really know about herbs. I'm sort of doing that myself. I go to one doc for meds. And one who's doing bee venom and gave me a Microcurrent Therapy KMT Unit. etc. He's been treating the lyme.
and again thanks everybody for your help.
I'm glad to see some of you are improving.
[ 04-26-2012, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: mr al ]
Posts: 105 | From east | Registered: Nov 2008
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Sammi
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Member # 110
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mr al, the Mepron dose is two teaspoons twice daily not two tablespoons. Make sure you eat something pretty fatty with the Mepron or it will not be absorbed properly.
I believe Zithromax should be taken daily because it needs to be taken with Mepron.
Good luck with your treatment!
Posts: 4681 | Registered: Oct 2000
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bcb1200 and baileypup seem to be talking about teaspoons when they write 2 tsp 2 x day
mr al wrote 1 tsb (I think that is a misspelling)
teaspoon = t = tsp tablespoon = T = tbs = tbsp
3 teaspoons = 1 tablespoon.
-------------------- Son, 26, Dx Lyme 4/10, Babs 8/10 Had serious arthritis, all gone. Currently on Valtrex Daughter, 26,bullseye 7/11 arthritis in knees, cured and off all meds. . Self:Lyme, bart, sxs gone, no longer treating. Posts: 496 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Jul 2010
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posted
My son, who is 14 yrs old and about 140lbs. is on 1/2tsp. Mepron and 250 mg Zithromax, both twice a day. Is this inadequate?
He has no symptoms, just a positive test, so it's hard to tell if the treatment is working. He did have dark urine, which seems to have improved, though.
Posts: 418 | From NJ | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
amk33 I'm no expert or anything but 140 pounds isn't small by an means. I don't see why he shouldn't be taking a normal dose.
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