Topic: Bicillin IM - Can be diluted??? Link in newer post below
susank
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22150
posted
I weigh 100 pounds - so not much padding. Would not having much of a "fanny" mean no Bicillin?
Also my hips and "fanny" muscles are extremely painful. I cannot imagine how painful a large needle would feel on top of that.
Does Bicillin work as some ABX do as an anti-inflammatory? (eventually?) (which is what I am hoping).
Bicillin puts the spirochetes into cyst form - which I am of the opinion is what makes one feel better. ?
But one would be obliged to deal with the cyst form. Pulsing Bicillin does not do the trick? Would GSE be effective with less side effects than Flagyl?
What about Bicillin and yeast, C. Diff etc?
Bicillin hits only Lyme and no co-infections or parasites - or Mycoplasmas?
What should one be doing before starting the infections? Detoxing? Treating for assumed parasites? Take GSE as a cyst buster (and as an antiparasitic?)
What is the first fire to try to put out at this stage of the game for me?.
(LD for years. On/off various treatments - nothing working - getting worse).
I am in really bad shape. Much pain. I am fairly certain I can get Bicillin prescribed. If so - should I immediately just jump in and start it?
(Praying I can find someone to give me the injections - no way could I do it myself. I give myself B12 injections and even they now hurt)..
Sorry so long - as usual - and thanks for any help.
posted
any antibiotic is suppose to put lyme into cysts-- and actually herbs might too, not just bicillin
Bicillin is a penecillin antibitoic, so it would only hit bacteria (no parasites, or viruses)
i didnt have too much trouble with bicillin shots, they hurt when they put them in, but its totally tolerable. Your weight doesn't really make a difference. Its an inter muscular shot, so its suppose to go into the muscle.
Any antibiotic will kill good bacteria too, which means yeast and C diff many become a problem, but most are able to control these with proper diet and preventative antifungals.
Some people get good results with bicillin, some don't. It definitely isn't a magic bullet. I didnt get much out of it, but other people have really turned a corner.
Posts: 844 | From CA | Registered: Apr 2010
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susank
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posted
Thanks. What are the advantages of IM vs oral Abx?
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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surprise
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Member # 34987
posted
I'm not qualified to give advice on your particular treatment, just some thoughts from me:
I also weigh 100 pounds, not much padding, I am doing Bicillin shots, 2x a week, no problem. Nurse taught husband how to do it.
Yes, pulsing cyst busters @ same time. I was an oral combinations for Lyme before shots, plateau, and wanted something to cross into brain, wasn't willing to do IV.
Detox is ALWAYS important, should be done before, during, after in your journey. Watching the gut no sugar and probiotics on going.
I wouldn't want to do the shots just for cyst formation- they will open at some point, and I'm not doing shots forever here.
I'm very glad I decided on the Bicillin protocol.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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Ellen101
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posted
I suffer from significant pain around my hips and "fanny" muscles as well. I will say having shots in this area has proved to be very painful, but I am feeling better. I am taking Zithromax and mepron along with the bicillin.
The pain is mostly during the shot. No matter how much I ice the area, and how slow my husband does it there is still significant pain as the nerves in that area are all inflamed.
Posts: 1748 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2011
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sammy
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13952
posted
Bicillin LA is given to small children when they are too sick from strep that they cannot take/keep down their oral antibiotics. Sometimes we forget that these antibiotics are used for many other things besides Lyme and co's. I wanted you to know this about the children so that you can rest assured knowing that your weight of 100lbs is not a contraindication for taking Bicillin.
As Ellen pointed out, you may experience more pain at first because you already have muscle pain in the areas where the injections are given. Even with your current muscle sensitivity you may have no problem with the injection site. You won't know unless you try.
Hopefully with time the Bicillin will help reduce your overall body pain, your muscle and joint pains. That's the goal with treatment.
Try not to worry about the size of the needles for the Bicillin, they are not that large. Bigger/longer needles don't feel much different than smaller/shorter needles. They just look scarier. Your nurse will teach you or your care giver to administer the shot and you will insert it so fast that you hardly feel it. I promise! What you feel the most is the medicine as you try to push it in.
Bicillin LA may be a good option for you to try because you've not been able to tolerate any oral antibiotics and you've been feeling so much sicker lately.
Another option is Rocephin IM injections. I remember that you felt better with this medicine after you got it in the ER. You can use topical EMLA cream to numb the injection sites before you give yourself the shots. You can give yourself the Rocephin in your thighs, hips, and buttocks. It is a smaller amount of medicine than the Bicillin. You would have to take this shot daily. Bicillin has to be taken in the hip or buttock 2 or 3x per week.
I wouldn't worry about creating cysts. Right now the Lyme and coinfections are replicating freely in your body, they are wreaking havoc, and causing tons of damage.
If you want to take a cyst buster with your antibiotic you could try GSE. My doc prescribed 3 capsules twice daily (Pure Encapsulations brand). You could try taking the liquid drops so that you could take even smaller doses and work your way up to tolerance.
Good luck!
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Lymeorsomething
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Member # 16359
posted
You can probably find the same effect with higher dose Amoxy. I'd also use Flagyl but maybe through pulsing because it can be a tough one.
Bicillin is good but you need someone who can handle the injections because they can be tricky and dangerous.
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I did IM rocephin every other day. Bicillin is 2-3 times a week. I really wouldn't worry about the needle-- i know it seems scary, I'm small too, but it will be ok.
If you hit something with rocephin stick with it!! Don't switch. Bicillin is in a totally different drug class and may not hit the right thing for you. I would stick with Rocephin until you stop herxing then talk to you Dr about switching then.
Posts: 844 | From CA | Registered: Apr 2010
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susank
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Member # 22150
posted
Thanks. I am just afraid about the needle size because I don't have much "there". Are different sized needles used for children vs large men?
Sammy, yes the 2 Roc infusions really seemed to do something - about the only thing that has. Roc IM is once per day? I thought was twice?
I have been thinking either IM Bicillin, IM Rocephin - or oral Amox. Today I was very tempted to order Amox from an animal catalog that sells it with no Rx for fish.
Which of the above three is thought to have the most anti-inflammatory properties? Some Abx even have immune modulating properties?
I have hit rock bottom and must do something - and soon.
If I can get to my doctor - and if she will prescribe IM Roc or Bic I will try one of them.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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sammy
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Member # 13952
posted
Children's doses will come with children's size needles. Adult doses come with adult size needles.
The child doses are based on age, weight, and type of infection. Adult doses are based on type of infection.
Your doctor can prescribe separate needles if they think that you need a different size. Smallest adult size I would use for dorsogluteal (buttock site) would be 1.5in 21g for Bicillin. Anything smaller would risk not getting deep enough in the muscle and spilling out into the fatty tissue.
Rocephin IM would only be once daily. IV is twice daily. Your muscles would get mad at you if you had to do those shots twice daily! If you ask for Rocephin, have the doctor prescribe it with lidocaine to reconstitute it. That numbs the site and help reduce pain.
I honestly don't know if either Rocephin or Bicillin are considered anti-inflammatory antibiotics. That would be a good question for your doctor. I don't think they are immune modulating either.
Hopefully you will be able to get in to see your doctor soon. I would think that she would be compassionate and willing to help if you tell her what you've told us, that you've "hit rock bottom".
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susank
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Member # 22150
posted
Researching Bicillin I stumbled upon a rabbit forum and found this:
The advice to dilute with lactated ringer or similar solution sounds brilliant. Could that be done for IM injections as well????
Why not? Please someone say it would be OK!!!
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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sammy
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13952
posted
If you dilute the medicine you have to inject more. The large amount of the medicine injected is what causes pain, not the size of the needle.
We can't compare ourselves to bunnies. I'm not a vet but I know that cats can have IV's given in the nape of their necks. Way different than people.
You can ask your doctor for an RX for the 1.5in (21g) needle for the Bicillin. It is not big, it has to go deep into the largest muscle in your body (for the dorsogluteal/butt site). You use that muscle to walk every day, you can't avoid exercising it if you walk at all!
If you do Rocephin you can reconstitute the powder with Lidocaine. That will numb the area. You can give those injections in your thighs, hip area, and butt area. For the thigh you could ask for a 1.25in 21g needle. That is the shortest you would probably want to use. Your doc should know what is best for you. Follow their advice. We can't see you, only your words here!
Don't let needle size scare you and keep you from trying a potentially life changing helpful medicine. Remember, needles are sharp, if you insert them fast without hesitation you won't hardly feel them at all.
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susank
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Member # 22150
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Thanks. So it is possible to mix a wee bit of a solution to make the Bicillin less thick? Somehow that seems a bit comforting to think about.
There was something else on the bunny site in this regard I need to look at again. Perhaps the saline? also helps against abcesses at the injection site?
FWIW I had always thought folks dreaded their IM Bicillin injections because the med is so thick.
It's not the needle size that scares me so much. I just have it in my head that I don't have enough muscle depth (?)to accommodate such a long needle. I really do have a tiny little fanny. I have not been this thin since I was a pre-teen.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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sammy
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13952
posted
Susan, it is a really bad idea to add anything to the Bicillin LA! Please don't consider it!!!
The Bicillin comes in prefilled syringes. These are great for safety and ease of use. They are sterile. All you have to do is attach the right sized needle.
If you try to add any additional fluid to the Bicillin it will not want to mix well. Bicillin is thick like glue.
Also, adding anything to the Bicillin can alter it's rate of absorption. It is a depot medicine meaning that it needs to be absorbed slowly at a steady rate over the next few days. If you thin the med out it's absorption will be unpredictable.
The actual process of mixing would open up the potential of contamination of the medicine. The less you have to do, the better. The more you handle the medicine, the higher risk of accidental contamination (germs). Contamination puts you at risk of infection. Meds that need a complicated mixing process are typically prepared under sterile pharmacy hoods.
The bunny website does not apply to us humans. Please be safe.
If the thickness of Bicillin is making you nervous then maybe try Rocephin first. It is thin like water.
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surprise
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Member # 34987
posted
I'll reassure you again, I am pretty tiny, 98-100 pounds, wish I had some more on my fanny-
the Bicillin shots are just fine for me-
I had the smaller needles with my first box, so had to get one on each side 2x a week for correct dose- 2nd box bigger shot, just 1 side @ a time- Prefer just the one side.
I think the key to overcome the fear is having a medical professional (my LLMD's nurse, example) do the first shot, and educate the person who will then be helping you with it-
Good luck--
and no, you can't mess with the shots ingredients- need to be handled in a sterile manner.
Sammy gives great advice.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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