glm1111
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posted
Google it and you will find that infections are behind a weakened thyroid not the other way around.
Since Lyme is a multisystemic infection, it would stand to reason that the thyroid and adrenal glands would be subjected to infection and inflammation causing both to be suppressed (hypoadrenal) and (hypothyroid)
To suggest that a weakened thyroid is the reason behind Lyme Disease and all of the co-infections is really not the whole story. Sorry to disagree with this theory, but IMO it's misleading.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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GiGi
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posted
The hormone producing glands, such as thyroid, are blocked by heavy metals and other neurotoxins and therefore cannot function properly.
To get well, the toxic body burden has to be reduced and things will start working again. We cannot function well or fight any invaders when toxic.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Infection is a common trigger for Hashimoto's.
Also, it is a known mechanism for the liver to slow the conversion of T4 to T3 and/or increase production of RT3 during infection. It is actually a mechanism towards self-preservation to keep the body from burning through it's energy stores while fighting off an infection. RT3 can be cleared within 24 hours once the infection is removed adequately. This how you can be immobilized in bed on Monday from a cold or flu, yet be back at work by Wednesday.
Put simply: HIGH RT3 is symptomatic of an infection, not the cause of infection.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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Pocono Lyme
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posted
I'm now being treated for hypothyroidism. Hmm. The first one in the entire family.
hmm The only one in the family debilitated by lyme and company.
-------------------- 2 Corinthians 12:9-11
9 But he said to me, �My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.� Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ�s power may rest on me. Posts: 1445 | From Poconos, PA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Pocono Lyme: I'm now being treated for hypothyroidism. Hmm. The first one in the entire family.
hmm The only one in the family debilitated by lyme and company.
The implications of your statement are not clear.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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emla999/Lyme
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Member # 12606
posted
Pocono Lyme, I am glad to hear that you are getting treated for hypothyroidism.
Hypothyroidism can cause a weakening of the immune sytem. So, your immune sytem should start functioning more normally now and that may make help you to heal from Lyme Disease..... hopefully it will anyway.
And if you don't mind me asking, has any of your other family members ever been bitten by a tick?
emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
Gael,
I did a search on PubMed and I wasn't able to find a study that stated that Lyme Disease directly caused hypothroidism or directly lowers Free T3 or raises TSH.
People can search and read the studies for themselves at PubMed. I have provided a link to PubMed down bellow if people want to read the studies for themselves.
But Gael, if you know of a study that has found that Lyme Disease unequivocally causes hypothyroidism would you please post a link to that study.
And furthermore, what I did find on PubMed was studies that showed that having low thyroid hormone production and thus having hypothyroidism lowers the immune system. And it is well known that a weakened immune system can make a person more susceptible to contracting infectious diseases and that having a weakened immune system can make it more difficult for a person to overcome an infectious illness.
Hypothyroidism is associated with an increase in bacterial intestinal overgrowth development.
*****Plus that study found that the intestinal bacteria did NOT interfere with thyroid hormone production. So, that particular type of bacteria did not cause hypothyroidism. But rather, that study would seem to indicate that hypothyroidism caused the intestinal bacterial overgrowth to occurr.
So, being hypothyroid can make people more susceptible to bacterial overgrowth. And even after they cured the intestinal bacteria overgrowth with antibiotics those people were still hypothyroid. So, if bacteria caused hypothyroidism then why didn't those patients hypothyroidism correct itself upon curing the bacterial overgrowth??
Hypothyroism causes a weakening of the immune system.
If scientific PubMed studies are not enough to convince you that hypothyroidism can make you more susceptible to contracting infections then maybe the anecdotal work of the late Dr. Broda Barnes will.
Dr. Broda Barnes treated people with many different types of infectious illnesses by givening those people desiccated thyroid and by correcting their hypothyroidism.
And you can read more about Dr. Broda Barnes and his use of desiccated thyroid to treat people of infectious illness by clicking on the link directly down bellow and by reading pages 88 through 102.
Even Dr. Mercola has stated that hypothyroidism can cause a weakening of the immune sytem and thus causing a hypothyroid patient to contract more infections.
So in my opinion, it has been scientifically proven that being hypothyroid can cause you to become more susceptible to contracting infections and that being hypothyroid will make it more difficult for a persom to overcome and infection.
And I believe that it may be helpful for chronic Lyme Disease patients to be adequately checked for hypothyroidism and to get adequately treated for hypothyroidism if they do indeed have hypothyroidism.
posted
"I did a search on PubMed and I wasn't able to find a study that stated that Lyme Disease directly caused hypothroidism or directly lowers Free T3 or raises TSH."
You don't need a study directly relating Lyme to thyroid issues. Infection of any sort can damage endocrine tissues as well as trigger auto-immune responses.
Have you noticed that Lyme is being cited as a causal factor behind a host of autoimmune diseases? MS, ALS, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Rheumatoid Arthritis etc...
It should be noted that treating for those diseases when Lyme is present is not very successful. Treating the Lyme however has opened up doors for many of these patients.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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posted
"The host response to infections encompasses a huge number of immunological mechanisms that can eventually lead to autoimmunity. ...the development of autoimmune phenomena linked to infections is a common finding..."
posted
If the endocrine is damaged, then it might make sense to replace the relevant hormones?
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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glm1111
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posted
Emla,
Hypothroidism has to have a cause. It just doesn't happen. On top of the list is thyroiditis.
Lots of articles on infection being the cause. Soo many people with Lyme disease have Hashimotos Thyroiditis. Hypothyroidism is secondary to Lyme disease.
It may be that some people who have a low functioning thyroid for other reasons such as not getting enough iodine in their diet or throat surgery may suffer from hypothyroidism and be more open to infection.
It's just too hard to believe that so many Lyme sufferers had a low functioning thyroid when they got bitten by a tick.
BTW, I was dx with Hashimotos Thyroiditis 20 yrs before being dx with Lyme and no amount of a thyroid supplement could fix my thyroid. Not saying it can't help others and being evaluated is important.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
VV,
You may not feel as though you need to prove your claims through science or facts but I do. Because scientific studies are needed and they are important and they are meaningful.
Anybody can make claims, but not just anybody is willing to publish their claims in a scientific journal or a peer reviewed journal to be scrutinized by others. So, scientific studies will generally hold more credibilty than a claim that somebody said.
And stating that chronic Lyme Disease causes hypothyroidism is a claim and not an established scientific fact.
But my claim that hypothyroidism can make you more susceptible to contracting infections and that being hypothyroidism can make it more difficult to over come infection is also backed published scientific studies.
And since the scientific evidence has shown that hypothyroidism can make you more susceptible to contracting infections and that being hypothyroidism can make it moree difficult to over come infection. And therefore, I believe that people with chronic Lyme Disease may want to consider getting the function of their thyroid checked. And should be treated for hypothyroidism if they have it.
quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire: If the endocrine is damaged, then it might make sense to replace the relevant hormones?
Yes, but cases of Hashimoto's are much more obvious to spot and diagnose and are usually being treated already.
High RT3 on the other hand is the body's normal response to any infection. Would you treat a flu with T3 only medication in a patient whose pituitary and thyroid are functioning properly?
Again, the body slows down the metabolism under this circumstance in order to conserve energy for fighting the infection. If you are up hunting buffalo while you have an active infection you are taking energy away from the immune system and your lifespan can be dramatically shortened (e.g. cardiac arrest).
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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You may not feel as though you need to prove your claims through science or facts but I do. Because scientific studies are needed and they are important and they are meaningful.
You clearly didn't read the article I posted.
"Viruses and bacteria are the infectious agents that have been long associated with autoimmune diseases."
"The autoimmune diseases are a diverse group of conditions characterized by abnormal immune reactivity in association with autoreactive B and T cell responses. There are more than 80 different autoimmune diseases [1] that affect hundreds of millions of people around the world. These systemic or organ-specific conditions are the third leading cause of morbidity and mortality in the industrial world after cancer and heart disease [2] . Multiple factors are thought to contribute to the development of immune response to self, including differences in genotypes, hormonal milieu, and environmental factors [3 4 5 6] . The role of environmental factors is clearly apparent when considering the low disease concordance rate between monozygotic twins for major autoimmune diseases. Of all environmental factors with a potential to trigger autoimmunity, the most important seems to be viruses, bacteria, and other infectious pathogens"
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
quote: Hypothroidism has to have a cause. It just doesn't happen. On top of the list is thyroiditis.
Lots of articles on infection being the cause.
Yes, something causes hypothyroidism.
For example certain drugs can induce hypothyroidism. And eating the wrong type of diet can induce hypothyroidism. Excessive exercise can cause hypothyroidism. Being deficient in certain nutrients can cause hypothyroidism. So yes, there are definetely known cause of hypothyroidism.
But having Lyme Disease is not one of the known causes of hypothyroidism.
Hashimoto's is the most common form of hypothyroidism in North America. Hashimoto's is an autoimmune disease.
Please read carefully the above quotes I gave on the subject of autoimmunity.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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glm1111
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Member # 16556
posted
emla,
You said "But having Lyme Disease is not one of the known causes of hypothroidism" REALLY??? Pretty blatant statement!
Google The Lyme Thyroid Connection. The thread "stop the thyroid madness" with MANY stories of Lyme Disease and the thyroid adrenal connection.
What is it you are trying to prove? That people with Lyme disease are sick because they have a low functioning thyroid?
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
VV,
Yes, I read your article but you didn't post the paragraph where they said and I quote......
"On the other hand, numerous evidences have emerged regarding the higher susceptibility of autoimmune patients to infections, possibly as a result of immunosuppressive therapy and treatment with biologic agents."
So, the authors admitted that the increase of infections in the Chronic Thyroiditis (Hashimoto's Disease) may actually be due to the immunosupressive treatment and therapy that they were given for Hashimoto's Disease.
**** And as I have said previously, when the immune sytem is low it makes you more susceptrible to contracting infections. And the authors of that article basically acknowledged that very thing.
The authors of that article also stated, that "On the other hand, experimental evidences have been accumulated that indicate that some pathogens, especially fungi, might modulate autoimmune processes, leading to a sort of protection from autoimmune diseases.
So, those authors are saying that infections may in fact protect us from autoimmune disease.
And no where in that article did the authors say that Lyme Disease can cause hypothyroidism or Hasimoto's Disease.
Also, we need to differeniate Hashimoto's Disease from hypothyroidism due to an underactive thyroid because they are not the same thing.
In Hashimoto Disease, antibodies react against proteins in the thyroid gland, causing the gradual destruction of the thyroid gland itself, and making the gland unable to produce the thyroid hormones the body needs. And yes Hashimoto can eventually cause hypothyroidism because Hashimoto Disease actually leads to the destruction the thyroid gland.
So, if someone here wants to know whether they have the Hashimoto Disease then they should have their anti-TPO and TgAb antibody levels tested and have an ultra sound performed of their thyroid.
An endocrinolgist should be able to eventually tell whether a patient either has Hasimoto Disease or hypothroidism due to a functionally underactive thyroid.
posted
"And no where in that article did the authors of say that Lyme Disease cause hypothyroidism or Hasimoto's Disease."
It doesn't have to be explicitly stated because it implicit in the quotes that I gave.
Lyme disease is a bacterial infection. Bacterial infections are a leading cause in autoimmune disease. Hashimoto's is an autoimmune disease and is the most common type of hypothyroidism.
The dots are all there.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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posted
Not only that, it is patently obvious through common sense that an infection can compromise the function of any organ.
If you have an infection of the kidney, your kindey function is likely compromised. If you have a brain infection, your brain function is likely compromised. The same OBVIOUSLY goes for endocrine function.
Lyme can infect any tissue in the body. We KNOW this. This is why there is such a mind-boggling list of symptoms that can be associated with Lyme ranging from neuro to cardio to hepatic to gastro etc.
Use some common sense please.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
VV what do you have to say about what that authors also said in that article?
This is a direct quote taken from that article.
"On the other hand, numerous evidences have emerged regarding the higher susceptibility of autoimmune patients to infections, possibly as a result of immunosuppressive therapy and treatment with biologic agents."
So, the authors admitted that the increase of infections in the autoimmune disease Chronic Thyroiditis (Hashimoto's Disease) may actually be due to the immunosupressive treatment and therapy that they were giving for Hashimoto's Disease.
The authors of that article also stated, that "On the other hand, experimental evidences have been accumulated that indicate that some pathogens, especially fungi, might modulate autoimmune processes, leading to a sort of protection from autoimmune diseases.
So, those authors are saying that infections may in fact protect us from autoimmune disease.
Should we just dismiss the part where they said all that?
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posted
"On the other hand, numerous evidences have emerged regarding the higher susceptibility of autoimmune patients to infections, possibly as a result of immunosuppressive therapy and treatment with biologic agents."
Most Hashimoto's patients are not treated with immunosupressants, but with thyroid hormone, which is exactly what you are advocating; therefore I do not understand the relevance of this quote to your argument. It does not support it.
Posts: 922 | From Philadelphia | Registered: Sep 2012
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posted
"The authors of that article also stated, that "On the other hand, experimental evidences have been accumulated that indicate that some pathogens, especially fungi, might modulate autoimmune processes, leading to a sort of protection from autoimmune diseases."
Lyme disease is not a fungi so I think you are reading too far into this quote.
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Pocono Lyme
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Member # 5939
posted
Just my opinion but I think since Lyme is a multisystemic disease, it can result in many maladies including hypothyroidism.
Like emla said, hypothyroidism can cause a weakened immune system. With no family history of hypothyroidism it seems likely to me that lyme targeted my thyroid.
I've read where lyme likes a cool environment and temps are low when the thyroid isn't functioning properly. Some smart bugs as we know.
It is highly likely that others in my family have been bitten. Primarily males. Avid hunters, hikers, outdoorsy. Females not so much except for me.
As far as scientific proof of lyme being a direct cause I don't know. Mainstream medicine is unaccepting of anecdotal "proof".
But. Anecdotal "evidence" often leads to further studies and discovery.
On the other hand. Look at all of the evidence of the persistence of lyme and it's ignored.
Good discussion with all making good points. Thanks ALL.
Ninja, it does make sense to replace deficient hormones.
Definitely making a difference for me.
-------------------- 2 Corinthians 12:9-11
9 But he said to me, �My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.� Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ�s power may rest on me. Posts: 1445 | From Poconos, PA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Catgirl
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posted
I can understand emla's need for scientific proof. I think that we've been raised to believe the scientific medical community before following anything else. However, that has gotten people with lyme no where. A considerable number of people fail the western blot. In my opinion, it's at least 50% if not more fallible.
So the people who fail it and believe their scientific medical community knows best, will simply deteriorate with lyme and company. Hence, welcoming autoimmune. I'm not willing to wait for proof of this.
There is literally no money being spent on lyme. At least no where near what Aids got in the 80s. I don't have 10 or 20 years to wait for a pub med study. Most of us are all doing our own clinical trials here simply by trial and error. If anyone is waiting for scientific proof, why even bother watching or attending an ILADS conference?
We are here to learn. Some people on this board have so much knowledge, they are truly light years ahead of all the docs, and especially the scientific community. You can wait for scientific proof if that is the belief system you value or follow. However, I believe Gigi and Gael are more on point than any doc I've ever seen.
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GiGi
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Member # 259
posted
Replacing temporarily deficient hormones makes absolute sense to help the patient over the hump. But it is only a bandaid. The major work is to clear the ligand sites of the hormone producing glands of mercury and other toxins blocking these hormone producing glands from functioning, so that they will function again. This takes time and patience.
Everything else is a bandaid not removing the real, real cause of the problem. Lyme and all other infections are secondary. Many people carry Lyme and live happily because their body is not on toxic overload. We will be way ahead of the game once we start to understand this.
Lyme is nastier than hell, but nothing will work unless we free the body of the toxic overload. ILADS did not mention the word "mercury" in their multi-page protocol until 2008 and cancer happened to some important people within that group.
Dr. K. in his first official publication "Lyme Disease: A look Beyond Antibiotics" (google it) said that he treats parasites first. That was in the year 2004! He first treated me for parasites in 1999! Now we are nine years later and still wondering whether mercury is a toxin to the human body and whether parasites may be a hindrance to getting well!
It is very frustrating even to me, and I am not a doctor. You can't imagine what a doctor goes through when he/she knows and has to fight this battle every minute of the day to keep practicing.
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