I am at the point now where I may have plateaued on my antibiotics.
I don't see my integrated LLMD for about two and a half weeks. So I have a couple questions with which some of you might have dealt.
1. I've just starting reading Buhner's book upon advice here (I had a couple others to read first.)
I am a little confused. Since I am on three antibiotics still, is it beneficial or harmful to begin the knot week and cat's claw?
I'm already taking the andrographis, but LLMD has only prescribed two twice a day as opposed to Buhner's higher dosage. I've been taking it for 45 days so is it okay to increase that?
2. My LLMD gave me a copy of Burrascano's rules of three protocol, which calls for eventually increasing to two at breakfast and two at super.
But he had only prescribed one at each meal. Since my liver and all other things were fine in my recent blood test (last week) should I increase the dosage?
doxy (100 mg / 2 X day since 4/12/13) Cefuroxime axetil (250 mg / 2 X day since 6/7/13) Clarithromycin (500 mg / 2 X day since 6/7/13)
I'm thinking of at least upping to two with supper until I see him.
And I bought a Rife machine! Can't wait to learn more about it. Is that also okay while on three antibiotics?
Thank you for all the help you've offered,
Susan
Posts: 83 | From Sarasota, Fla | Registered: Apr 2013
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- I know how very tempting it can be to try to speed all this along. Still, from my own past foibles and some research afterward, I've learned this:
Do NOT increase dosage of RX when you are with a doctor whom you know to be very LL and ILADS educated and also familar with Burrascano's guidelines. They are guidelines, not a blueprint for every person, however.
Your doctor has suggested this course with very careful thought and reasoning for YOUR body. To change anything can throw the protocol out of balance.
If you have questions about your dosage or time table TALK to your doctor. Communication is key at every decision - beforehand.
As your next appointment, ask him if in between appointments you want to add something, if you can just email him. Or ask if there is a certain category of supplement with which you can have free reign. Likely there are.
Andrographis. I'm not sure about increasing dosage. I'd stick to current dose for now. It can be pretty strong and not everyone tolerates it well. If you do increase, do so only by ONE and at night as it can be sedating when the dose increases. Be sure to drink water with it, too.
Japanese Knotweed & Cat's Claw.
Probabaly can start at very low dose one at a time so you have a sense of how each one can work separate of each other. One capsule a day of one for a couple days, then stop. Then one capsule of the other for a couple days. Than add in one capsule of the other and see how that goes.
By then, it will be time for your next appt.
Blood tests cannot show that your liver is "fine" in all regards to the stress load of treatment IF you increase beyond doctors' advice. especially RX.
If some of the herbs that cause a herx are increased to a higher level, you could have stronger herx reactions. Andrographis is more likely to cause increased herx if increased but I hear some same Japanese Knotweed or Cat's Claw can, too. (I've not not had those two do that).
Ask your LLMD about any changes in advance. It may be best to also consult a LL ND (naturopathic doctor).
There are certain herbs that are just fine to add as support (and even as direct "help") but some may increase the stress load on your liver &/or kidneys. ONLY an expert working WITH YOU can tell you what is best. That's in an ideal world.
Going very slow and low on your own with some herbs will usually be fine but most of us just don't have the experience and education of a ND who would know best.
On our own, Low & slow is the key, though. I know you are wanting to speed this along, and I don't blame you at all for that.
Glad to hear you bought a rife machine, be sure to get Rosner's book and read in advance.
No, Rife in not okay when on antibiotics. With breaks, yes, but not at the same time (as least not when you are starting out and only a few will chance this even later on. It can be counterproductive).
However, you can use 10,000 (10K) daily, regardless of your protocol. It's not anti-infective but will help calm inflammation. -
[ 07-13-2013, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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Topic: RIFE Machine - Reference LINKS - get Rosner's book
How to Find a LL ND (Naturopathic) links here, too. Article and books links here can also answer many of your questions about integrative treatment approaches with both Rx and herbal supplements. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- Not sure exactly how you feel you have plateaued (and sometimes that can be a good thing in some ways, for certain periods of time) . . . however, some things here may be of help:
LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- Some herbal supplements can decrease the therapeutic dose of Rx in the body. This is because so many herbs are very helpful to the liver and kidneys and when they work better, move everything along better and that can mean decreased levels of some medicines - if taken too close together.
Some of the nutritional supplements, with minerals, can bind to some Rx.
And some herbs can negate probiotics if taken at the same time.
Basic guideline for timing (there are some exceptions, though). Keep apart by a couple hours, both clock directions:
RX
Supplements (whether nutritional or herbal)
Probiotics -
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Keebler
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- I would ask about a "CYST BUSTER" and also how BIOFILM will be addressed. Some approaches may cover both but not necessarily.
A "cyst-buster" would be something like Flagyl (or its derivitives) or GSE (grapefruit seed extract).
GSE may also address biofilm. Allicin will, too.
Andrographis may also have some effects in this regard.
Just be sure that your doctor is addressing that part of it, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Thanks, Keebler. I had decided to give the LLMD a call on Monday and ask about the ABX increase.
I will wait until I see him to discuss the herbs.
As for Rife, I guess I just paid a lot of money to keep it in storage for a while. I think I will be on antibiotics at least for the next 6 months (according to doc).
I should test it before the warranty lapses.
I have an integrated doctor, but I want to find a good ND as well.
I am way to impatient and I'm used to being aggressive with my health. Sigh.
Many thanks
Susan
Posts: 83 | From Sarasota, Fla | Registered: Apr 2013
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Keebler
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posted
- ANDROGRAPHIS - just some stuff from my notes.
ANDROGRAPHIS paniculata - LINKS SET -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- I don't think you should have to wait six months to try the rife.
Talk to your LLMD about this. Some have pulsed abx (antibiotics) and then used the rife during the break times.
Rosner does describe how some have done this. You just need to be sure that the abx are not pushing lyme into cyst form where them may not be as available to rife.
Check out the rife discussion thread in that set of links above.
It's so very complicated, for sure. I know your LLMD can't advise you on rife but you can say, what if I were to do this: " . . . . "
He CAN advide on how any abx pushes woule be designed. He just can't advise specifics on rife treatment (by law). A LL ND can, however, but not all LL NDs are also rife experts.
COINFECTIONS? Not sure if you've been assessed for those but, if so, rife can be used for those, too. Of course, you'd have the same questions about Rx during rife.
Good luck. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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So, what I hear you saying is that Rife would be counterproductive but not harmful.
In other words, can I use if for other things such as yeast, detox, etc. while on abx?
I will read Rosner's book as soon as I get done with Buhner's.
Susan
Posts: 83 | From Sarasota, Fla | Registered: Apr 2013
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Keebler
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posted
- Counterproductive, at the least.
To be clear, rife certainly could be harmful when used at the same time as antibiotics.
Expert guidance is best so that all the bases, the nuances, the twists & turns are all considered and well covered. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Got it. Thanks again.
Posts: 83 | From Sarasota, Fla | Registered: Apr 2013
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surprise
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posted
I think it was my 3rd LLMD appointment I received a VERY stern lecture about being too aggressive...
something along the lines of 'I've seen people like you: Kill, Kill, Kill! And then CRASH. And the crash can be horrific to come back from'
Stuck with me, on the other hand, a strong will and constitution can help success, as well. But, it made me hyper aware of the need to always incorporate detox protocols.
As far as Buhner herbs with all your antibiotics, how about the ones that 'help'
like Japanese Knotwood, Smilax, Red Root... along these lines.
I somewhat *crashed* this morning---been taking hearty doses of potent herbs (I've been off all antibiotics) and pushing myself with weight lifting every morning-
Well, pulled/ neck shoulder immense pain- I have built up to over doing it. Scrambled to find a massage appt. earlier, now need to rest a few days. Herxing, it seems. Not fun.
So, I understand impatience. It's a character trait of mine, for sure. But, it takes time for this healing. Hang in there--
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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Keebler
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- Sometimes, a plateau is required for a little while for the next phase to work. -
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MannaMe
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posted
In what way does rifing hurt you while on ABX? I never heard that before....
Posts: 2607 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2011
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lpkayak
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posted
theres a lot of info here but the two things that jumped out at me is one 100mg doxy 2 x a day is half the normal dosage for tx
i would be concerned about resistance with that
i havent taken the other meds in awhile so dont remember correct dosage
also-as i think buhner has said(im not doing that well now-so check it-but i think he says that the body can evade abx easier than herbs and that is why tthey work ...but i think it is pretty much agreed it is alwasy best to zap with good year of abx in the beginning-changing combos etc - and then later clean up what is left with herbs
some of his herbs are not for killing as much as for support-like red root that helps lymph nodes and detox
i would not drop the doc....if it is early in tx...sometimes thay start slow and systematiaclly ramp you up to be sure herx is controlled and you dont crash like said above
the one thing i would find out is why 200 doxy a day...it is pretty well know that is under tx and can lead to problems
good luck
i did 3 yrs of high dose oral abx and then maintained on buhner for a long time
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
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posted
- MannaMe,
You asked: "In what way does rifing hurt you while on ABX?" (end quote)
The liver can fail. That's just one way. It's too much to do both rife and antibiotics at the same time - too much liver stress.
There are other ways, though, that it's counterproductive, at the least. Details here:
That's my thought exactly. Dr. B's guidelines call for 300 to 600 mg daily.
I will call the doc, though, instead of making my own decision.
I've been doing infra red sauna and hydrocolonics while on the multiple antibiotics. It hasn't seemed to hurt anything.
If I have to keep my living in good shape for up to 3 years of abx, though, I certainly don't want to muck it up with Rifing at the same time.
Posts: 83 | From Sarasota, Fla | Registered: Apr 2013
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Keebler
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posted
- If you get to a place where you take antibiotic breaks, that would be a good time to consider rifing.
I think it can be a very valuable tool. Just a little tricky to get the timing down. Rifing for lyme is done only every 12 days. -
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