Summer3
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posted
I think I'm changing my protocol. I have been doing Banderol (20x2) Samento (20x2) Cumanda (15x2) Elecampane (20x2) A-BAB (10x2). A variation of this combo brought me back from being completely unable to get up a few weeks ago (5 weeks after stopping abx). Then I started herxing........I think.
Last week through today has been rough. I've been very emotional, having headaches, fever, extreme hunger, heart palpitations, more near-fainting than usual, water retention, tremor, severe depression, anxiety, hopelessness, etc. I'm pretty sure it's herxing because the type of depression I'm having is uncharacteristic for me. It's something I've had this severely only a few other times (shortly after starting various antibiotics).
I get to the point that I don't want to do ANYTHING to treat Lyme anymore. I literally give up and want to treat everything symptomatically because I feel like no Lyme treatment helps me improve, it only keeps me from worsening. That type of attitude isn't normal for me either. I don't quit easily.
Tomorrow I think I'm cutting way back on what I'm taking. I normally never have to back down. I've been on HEAVY oral abx and I always push through the herxing. This time I just feel like it's too much. It's breaking me down physically and emotionally but I don't want to stop too much and allow my symptoms to progress permanently again. I think I'll go back to Quina (30x2) and stick with A-BAB (10x2) and Enula (20x2).
In a few weeks I plan on trying the other things again. I ordered the month 3 package of the Cowden protocol which will be Banderol/Cumanda/Mora/Samento. I also ordered A-BART. This time I'll have all the Cowden detox tinctures to help out also.
Has anyone else reacted like this to herbs? I normally don't react at all. I can't tell if this is just my normal symptoms intensifying naturally or a definite herx. At the time that I started herbs I was in VERY bad shape and couldn't move. I was worried that I was going to end up hospitalized. I no longer have a LLMD so I started herbs strongly on my own after researching as a last resort. A strong combo definitely helped me get out of bed and closer to my "typical" level, but the downside is that I don't know which herbs are causing herxing or side effects.
When I was on antibiotics, week 2 of starting something new would bring improvement and by week 3 I'd be severely herxing. With herbs, my severe herx seemed to appear earlier in week 2.
posted
We find it helpful to take breaks one or two days a week, using only knotweed for inflammation for those 1-2 days. Our daughter gets down to an amazing baseline during the days off, and if the herx doesn't resume too badly with the next round, we know it's time to increase the herbals.
We discovered pulsing when using tindamax. She just wasn't able to use it continuously. So we used 3 days on 4 days off. Each successive herx would be smaller than the one before, so we knew we were on the right track.
We are doing the same with A-Bart right now, but with 5 days on, 2 days off.
I figure that if she gets to a good baseline on the days off, the symptoms we are seeing for the rest of the week are herxes. If symptoms didn't decrease to a baseline on off days, I would suspect a relapse.
-------------------- 13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement. Posts: 265 | From Canada, Ontario | Registered: Jul 2013
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Summer3
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posted
Thanks. I was pretty shocked by this level of herxing and the fact that it was delayed and started slightly after week 2 (day 16) seems to indicate that it was probably definite herxing and not side effects.
I had a very bad night which is continuing so I decided I'm definitely going to back down to A-Bab/Quina/Enula until the full protocol month 3 (which includes detox tinctures) arrives. I did okay on Quina the first time I took it about 2.5 weeks ago. I think the ones that are the main problem for me are Samento/Cumanda/Banderol.
This is the first time that I've had to cut back from herxing. I was able to tolerate all abx (even Flagyl daily). On most abx I'd get very clear herxing, but never to the point that I was completely unable to handle it like recently with these herbs. My opinion of herbs is changing................I didn't think they were strong, but I'm actually glad to see that they appear to be affecting me somehow. I was worried that nothing was absorbing in my system.
ukcarry
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Member # 18147
posted
Summer, I suspect that you are just taking too many antimicrobials at once. All those herbals can produce a herx individually and there really is no virtue in trying to rush things.
You could split your herbs into three lots for rotation instead of the two you are trying at present, so one pair could be Samento and Banuderol, since that is a well-tested partnership and a key pairing on Cowden. Banderol and Cumanda in particular of the Cowden ones can be difficult to tolerate at first, so i would divide them into different rotation pairs. Perhaps you should leave using the A-Bab until you tolerate the Cowden herbs.
Sometimes people who are used to taking antibiotics only (ie not antimicrobial herbs) are frightened that herbs will be weaker and therefore they try using more of them at a time.....that may be fine if they are not all strongly antimicrobial, but too many can pack too much of a punch and overload your detox organs.
Whatever the reason, hope you pick up soon.
[ 10-14-2013, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: ukcarry ]
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Summer3
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posted
Thanks. I agree UKcarry. I was very worried that herbs would not be strong enough to prevent progression so I jumped in to as many as I could at once. I had no problem tolerating very strong combos of oral abx, and in the past I never reacted at all to herbs so I thought I'd be alright.
As soon as I upped my dose to 30 drops, I was having severe issues. I cut back now to Enula/A-Bab/Quina. I will start the real protocol Month 3 with detox which consists of Banderol/Samento for several weeks and then Samento/Cumanda/Mora as soon as I recover some strength.
tick battler
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posted
Many don't believe that herbs are as powerful and effective as antibiotics but in many cases they are more powerful. My family started with antibiotics and couldn't get well so we switched to herbs and finally started herxing and then got better. I was amazed and wished I had started with herbs, which are much easier on your body (if you go slowly!).
One of our practitioners uses mostly just Samento, Cumanda and burbur to treat lyme, ehrlichia and bartonella, and Agristept-L (GSE) to treat babesia. She is very successful but also treats parasites. I think you are taking way too many killing agents and are hitting the lyme and bart too hard. Our practitioner starts with 1 drop twice/day for Samento and moves up a drop per day. For Cumanda, she starts at 2 drops/day and moves up slowly from there. She only uses banderol when people don't respond to Cumanda, which is rare.
Hope this helps! tickbattler
Posts: 1763 | From Malvern, PA | Registered: Jul 2009
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ukcarry
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posted
Good idea, Summer. If you have a day by day chart for Cowden, you will see that, once rotations start, you have those 36 hours between rotations each time in which you take only the detox stuff....ie that I mentioned to you on another post. That break is a good idea, i feel, to prevent resistance and get the bugs to de-cyst.
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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CD57
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posted
I'm in the same boat as Summer as regards not responding to herbs but have not tried Cowden...I would imagine I would not get a response until 30 drops or more either, Summer.
Glad this is working for you! Are you still treating PR?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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CD57
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posted
I'm in the same boat as Summer as regards not responding to herbs but have not tried Cowden...I would imagine I would not get a response until 30 drops or more either, Summer.
Glad this is working for you! Are you still treating PR?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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CD57
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posted
I'm in the same boat as Summer as regards not responding to herbs but have not tried Cowden...I would imagine I would not get a response until 30 drops or more either, Summer.
Glad this is working for you! Are you still treating PR?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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CherylSue
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Member # 13077
posted
I herxed badly on Cowden samento, cumanda, and banderol. There was no improvement for me at all. I gave up after 10 months, relapsed, and went to abx.
I now suspect babesia was a larger issue for me, and Cowden herbs were not as effective for babs.
Posts: 1954 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2007
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Summer3
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Member # 35286
posted
CD57, I was doing the low-fat diet and enzymes for protomyxzoa and then my blood work became abnormal (low potassium, high liver enzymes, high anion gap,). I had A-Fib detected (in my 20's) and was taken off all treatment, dropped as a patient by my LLMD, and sent to a cardiologist who is completely Lyme-illiterate. So it was a rough month and I wish I had not tried the protomyxzoa treatment (even though it was suggested through my LLMD by a consulting ILADS doctor) because of the resulting circumstances.
So now I'm on my own. Herbs would not have been my first choice for treatment but to my surprise I did react extremely strongly. I never had to cut back from herxing on antibiotics. This is the first combo to break me down.....lol. Although it could also be from how severe my symptoms are at baseline right now along with extreme exhaustion from treating so long.
When I'm not doing anything for infection (like I did for 5 weeks) I get drastically worse from progression. I have no test results to suggest any other condition so I'm kind of stuck to self-treat Lyme even though so far no form of treatment has been successful to bring improvement; only to prevent progression.
I restarted only Banderol and Samento (30 drops each) last night after staying off for 48 hours. I'm going to keep trying to tolerate it. I'm not a fan of the ramping up method. I feel like it could contribute to resistance developing more easily.
GretaM
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Member # 40917
posted
Hi Summer,
I see that you sleep as poorly as I do... Your message was posted just before 3am.
Not sure if you fall asleep and then wake up around 3am often, but waking up around this time in the night seems to be a common symptom of those of us with parasites.
Just wanted to put that out there in case you weren't aware.
Anyways, I hope the herx isn't too bad since you started up the herbs again.
Greta
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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ukcarry
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posted
Cherylsue, do you mean that you were on only those three Cowden herbs, or were you doing the whole Cowden support program, but only had a Herx response to those three?
Some of the other herbs on the program target Babesia.
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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I made excellent progress on the Cowden Protocol. I don't want to speak for her, but RZR has also made very good progress on the Cowden Protocol. Yes, you will herx on the Cowden herbs and I believe that they are at least as effective as ABX.
Having said that, I would strongly suggest that you do the entire Cowden Protocol, exactly as written, if you are serious about getting better. I'm absolutely sure that a LOT of time and effort went into putting together a combination of killing agents and detox agents in this protocol. I seriously doubt that randomly picking out herbs and dosages will be as effective as following the approved program.
There is even a protocol within the Cowden Protocol for dealing with bad herxes.
Posts: 177 | From Ohio | Registered: Aug 2012
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Catgirl
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posted
I'm with Patriot.
I do better on herbs than abx. I got better on Byron White last year, and I went super slow with them. I think that is why I had so much success last year (improvement was slow, but steady). I actually didn't follow the instructions though and went even slower (I just didn't want to herx).
I have also taken Cowden herbs too. They both are great IMO. It doesn't matter which brand, just use whatever works. Also, muscle testing REALLY helps when taking herbs (can't stress this enough). I didn't want to become immune to the herbs and learned how to muscle test. It's one of the best things that I've ever learned and use it daily. But if you don't feel comfortable with kineseology, then I would follow the protocol exactly as Patriot said.
Also, I would rotate the babs herbs: artemisinin or artemesia, cryptoleptis. Some people like sida acuta better. I remember Bea S. saying that her husband did better on that herb. You just don't want to do too many herbs or you won't know what is doing what. I just use one at a time: artemesinin, then when off the art, crypto. Babs can quickly adapt to these, so you have to rotate them (pulse).
Also, the full moon is also coming up, so flaring is customary for me the week before. A big part of this is parasites.
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
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tick battler
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posted
CherylSue - I think you are right...you were not treating babesia so you would not notice improvement. The fact that you were herxing on Samento, Cumanda, etc.. would indicate to me that they were killing something. Perhaps if you added the Agrisept-L, for the babs, I think you would have likely seen improvement. Babs is one of the the worst coinfection, IMO.
tickbattler
Posts: 1763 | From Malvern, PA | Registered: Jul 2009
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tick battler
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posted
Agree with Catgirl...have to go after the parasites too! They may be the root cause as to why all of us get so sick when others don't.
Posts: 1763 | From Malvern, PA | Registered: Jul 2009
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2roads
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Member # 4409
posted
Tickbattler,
What parasite /Babesia determines which therapy you and your family will have, MMS/Agrisept/or Dr. K's Cocktail? What, if any, kind of herx have they posed?
Thanks
Posts: 2214 | From West Chester, PA | Registered: Aug 2003
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