Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
You'd think someone would teach Wormser how to say those two tiny words that would end his horrible Lyme anxiety and address his incurable obsession with us.
Just 2 words, that's all it takes. Come on now Wormser, say them with me. You can do it! I know you can! Just say...
"I'm wrong!"
Now, that didn't hurt too much, did it?
Not worth the read, so to summarize, he blended up a mouse- most of it- and then tried to see if it was still infected with Lyme after treatment, no doubt using the marvelous tests that miss 75% of those infected with Lyme.
Anyhow, he discovered the Lyme infected mouse he treated with antibiotics was CURED!!!! Dead, but cured. That makes, in his mind at least, all the studies by others wrong!
I've just nominated him for the Old Fools Award. He's bound to win it.
Culture of the Entire Mouse to Determine Whether Cultivable Borrelia Burgdorferi Persist in Infected Mice Treated with a Five Day Course of Ceftriaxone.
Pavia CS, Wormser GP.
Antimicrobial Agents & Chemotherapy. pii: AAC.03751-14. Online before print, 2014 Aug 25.
Although controversial, it has been suggested that antibiotic treatment of laboratory animals infected with Borrelia burgdorferi often leads to the persistence of residual spirochetes that are claimed to be viable but non-cultivable.
If viable cells of B. burgdorferi do persist following antibiotic therapy, one possible explanation for the lack of cultivability is that too few organisms persist in any given tissue site that might be sampled and cultured.
In this study, we treated SKH (hairless) mice, with B. burgdorferi infection of 3 months duration, with either ceftriaxone or saline for 5 days and then cultured a suspension extract of nearly the entire mouse using a combined in vivo/in vitro culture method.
All of the saline-treated (control) mice were culture positive, compared with none of the antibiotic-treated mice.
Our findings further document the effectiveness of antibiotic therapy in eradicating cultivable cells of B. burgdorferi, irrespective of tissue or organ site.
posted
I need to read the article, but just from reading the abstract I have a BIG question. He says they cultured "NEARLY THE ENTIRE MOUSE". Why not the entire mouse? Did they by chance not culture the brain or the bone marrow or some other organ that might still harbor borrelia?
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I don't think I could sit through that conference without getting kicked out!
Posts: 27 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2014
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posted
Thanks TinCup. I will take a look at this to see if it is another study that qualifies for a C.enter for D.umb C.ience (CDC) Oscar.
Posts: 360 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Dec 2012
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posted
Oh, I have to pay. If anyone has it and could send it to me, I'd like to take a look. PM me. Thanks
Posts: 360 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Dec 2012
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posted
He is only infecting with burgdoferi. Maybe the unevolved strain in CDC repositories. No other parasites or coinfectors. And what is behind the word cultivable. Was he testing for antibodies, like human diagnostic tests, or was he looking for bacteria or bacterial DNA. He should have kept some infected mice around longer than three months. What was the dose size in comparison to the mass of the little mouse for those five days? If I could review his actual experiment, I'm sure I would have many more unknown variables that he overlooked.
-------------------- * Posts: 74 | From Bowie, Maryland | Registered: Aug 2014
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poppy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5355
posted
He was culturing them, so must be looking for spirochetes, not antibodies. Interesting that he was able to find them in ALL of the untreated mice when everything we have heard over the years is that lyme bacteria cannot be cultured, like syphilis and many other bacteria. That makes him a miracle working Worm. Doubting that he was using Sapi's culture technique or that of Advanced Lab. And I don't think even with the improved culture medium they don't get 100% success. But then they only use blood, not the whole patient!
Two questions I would want to ask: how soon after the treatment finished were these mice tested? How long was the culture held?
Oh, and another question: if he is trying to prove the uncultivable cells theory is wrong, why does finding no keets in a culture prove it? Just a heck of a lot of holes in this. Too dumb to see them or too evil to care?
Posts: 2888 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Oh My! Bea? Bea? You feeling ok? Got a fever, runny nose? Something?
Can't believe the line up for that conference! I'd have to put it on my list of the top 10 places I wouldn't go, ever, never, in the whole world. HA! But, if you have the stomach for it, glad you are going. We do need to know.
And thank you for serving our Country in this manner. There should be a gold metal presented to you for your sacrifice.
Lymedin 2010- Please be sure to charge him a hefty fee for your drop of blood. No mercy. ~smile~
AML- You and Bob made me laugh! And you hit the nail on the head. I can't be in the room with one of them, much less the whole crew! Arrrrgggg!
Bob-
Hermit and poppy- good review/analysis of the "work". I agree! I can no longer think them through when I see Wormser's name on them. All I can do is laugh cause it is such unbelievable stuff.
And poppy- the answer to your last question- both!
posted
Its really sad because MGH has state of the art care if you are suffering from many acute issues. I would go there for surgery, diabetes, etc. But so behind on chronic disease, because health care is not set up for that.
I would be interested in their lectures on "Role of laboratory diagnostic testing in cerebrospinal and joint fluids: current state and future directions"
I have little faith in testing of cerebrospinal fluids.
I'm sure the vaccine development lecture is bound to be illuminating
I see they also have a lecture on "Novel cellular proteo-stress biomarkers for post treatment Lyme disease syndrome "
Take me, I NEVER was treated for my bull's eye rash in 2005 beyond 7 days (negative test, told to stop antibiotics, told possible insect bite). So how can I have POST-TREATMENT Lyme disease syndrome? How?
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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poppy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5355
posted
You had some treatment. So, anything after that is post treatment. Doesn't say how much treatment in this wording, or whether it is post infectious or not. Just a way to avoid saying chronic lyme and stay out of trouble with the heavies.
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hiker53
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 6046
posted
My guess is he injected the mouse with the Lyme bacteria and then right away gave antibiotics. That would probably end up curing the mouse.
Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8927 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
posted
He's just another example of someone trapped in their own belief system.
He is also no different than an attorney presenting a case (not to dis attorneys, this is just a metaphor). He's presenting selected material to prove his point and not looking at anything else. It's just so wrong on so many levels.
My guess is he will eventually have to cave but will somehow re define it, and give it a new name, sort of like climate change being the latest coined phrase for what is actually global warming--it somehow makes it easier to swallow.
He's an idiot for sure but hey, karma eventually finds the idiots.
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
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poppy
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posted
Hiker, it says the mice were infected 3 months before treatment.
It has always been my understanding that mice don't get neurological disease. Therefore, not a good experiment. Proves nothing about human disease.
Posts: 2888 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Working on my design for a tee shirt to wear to the conference.
So far - for the front - My husband died from babesia !!! Why are you here?
On the back - Babesia -NOT easy to diagnose, NOT easy to treat, Not just b. microti, Can KILL
Just ask my husband - oh - can't be done because he died from undiagnosed babesia.
Those are just my first ideas - will probably change but you can get the idea that I will be noticed and speak out at the conference.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Maia said.. "I'm sure the vaccine development lecture is bound to be illuminating."
HA! I agree! That Stanley fellow, he is somethin'! And to make it even more fun- he is working with McStupid now (or vice-versa). Please, no one give them swords or any dangerous weapons to play with.
Catgirl said.. "My guess is he will eventually have to cave but will somehow re define it."
Maybe? My guess is he will go to his grave snickering and taking his hogwash with him.
Bea- I'm still feeling your loss. So tough. And yes, you will make a splash dressed like that!
Poppy and hiker- what can I say except- poor mouse!
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Our WORM will never turn. Instead he'll have to be trodden on. So TC and all get your big boots.
quote:Also, the worm has turned. Even a very tolerant person will one day lose patience. For example, He bullied his assistant for years, but one day the worm turned and he walked out without notice, taking along his best clients.
From Shakespeare's Henry VI, Part III, 1592:
quote:CLIFFORD: My gracious liege, this too much lenity And harmful pity must be laid aside. To whom do lions cast their gentle looks? Not to the beast that would usurp their den. Whose hand is that the forest bear doth lick? Not his that spoils her young before her face. Who 'scapes the lurking serpent's mortal sting? Not he that sets his foot upon her back. The smallest worm will turn being trodden on, And doves will peck in safeguard of their brood.
If the worm won't turn -- stomp away
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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cottonbrain
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Member # 13769
posted
Bea, you are amazing!
It would be great to get a contingent of people together to go to the conference with you. There are people on this website who have proved to be excellent fundraisers.
Anybody know how to do this? It would be great to get at least ten people to go to the conference. Each one in a tee shirt.
Bea, you are a genius.
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GretaM
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 40917
posted
I agree Bob.
The double standards in research trials...I hope his peers rip his experiment apart.
I for one would gladly submit to a properly run research trial...
Experiments on mice and other animals are no longer valid when so many humans are now infected.
It's the same BS with the BC CDC and their "tick testing".
Wormser is on a $hit list for like a million people... Someday his follies will catch up with him.
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MADDOG
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posted
It is not very often that someones name has what they are in it.WORM!!!!
MADDOG
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TNT
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posted
Yes, such a fitting name!!!
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beaches
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posted
All I will say is that there is evil in the world.
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Rumigirl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15091
posted
You know, Wormser isn't dumb; he just acts like it. He knows the truth; look up his prior research on PubMed. He just says what he says for his own reasons. Not that that makes it any better!
Just thought I'd set the record straight. The reason that matters is that you then have a better idea of what we are up against. REad Elena Cook's material. That will give you a better idea.
There are reasons why the IDSA guys say what they say----reasons beyond the vaccines and test kits. Again, read Elena Cook. And "Lab 257", etc.
Then, again, you might not want to: pretty depressing. But we should know the enemy. beaches is right.
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