posted
My dentist made me a nightguard for tmj. But could lyme cause tmj problems? My jaw pops and clicks but it isn't severe and doesn't ever lock. Always seems achy, along with head pain.
Should i wait until finding a tmj specialist, and possibly getting a splint that repositions your jaw? Maybe lyme is causing it? Thanks
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- Search causes of bruxism and magnesium will be the most often mentioned pal.
Bruxism is one major cause of TMJ and if a mouthguard is being made, it's likely due to bruxism (grinding of the teeth at night).
This jaw clenching / teeth grinding is most often due to low magnesium. So that's the first thing to consider. Must be 3 or 4 x a day or it just will not work as needed for the bigger picture.
And it must be a form that is most absorbable, too. The type and dosage often trip up many who think they are taking it but not seeing results.
I. Magnesium deficiency / and balance of OTHER minerals, too (mentioned in the links set, next post)
Lyme connected? Yes. Very likely. And, that can be in a variety of ways.
II. Lyme & lyme related considerations
1. Toxicity in the body will make nerves go haywire and that needs to muscle twitches, tightness, etc.
2. Nerve infection . . . and irritation, unsteadiness of "firing" creating spasms in muscles - specifically the cranial nerves that run around the jaw
3. Inflammation and impeding flow of good saliva.
4. Dry mouth that can be caused by lyme but also by so many medications (especially those for sleep or mood. IMO if you are taking ANY - ANY Rx that caused dry mouth, seriously consider how you can stop that. Dry mouth can be the ruin of us in so many ways.
If your mouth is dry, you may unconsciously "work" the muscles in your mouth to pull out saliva and that can add to the bruxism habit.
5. Stress - the sheer physical and physiological stress of lyme plus the emotional stress of it -- how that causes muscle constriction, etc.
6. Health of mouth tissue - greatly affected by lyme & other infections as well. The mouth tissue needs to be healthy. Otherwise you may also have muscles doing all kinds of odd things to try to adjust.
7. Posture, ergonomics. Lyme steals energy. So slumping, not just mindful of proper posture but unable to achieve that really can hurt our neck and that hurts our jaw, too.
8. Adrenal support may not be all that we need. and that can lead to improper posture.
Etc., etc. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- you might want to refer back to this regarding the dosage / type / timing
Topic: MAGNESIUM - Informational Links set -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- If your jaw pops & clicks, yes, and you've addressed all the other considerations, I think a special kind of x-ray or imaging is important.
It's not just a typical x-ray. I've not had this done for many years so technology may be better. A panoramic was what need to see the TMJ joint at that time.
That clicking and popping could be tight muscle related - that pulls a tendon out of whack or
structural with bone, cartlidge
if structural, it's best to have that image BEFORE any night guard is made.
And if structural, say some bone issues -- it's really important to know that or rule it out.
Also be sure the night guard is VERY HARD acrylic, NOT soft. The soft ones can be chomped through like gummy bears. My soft one lasted just 2 nights - and I choked on some of the bits I had bitten off.
Only the very hard acrylic was any good. But that was before I learned all the stuff I listed above. Now I need no such guard at all.
Even with the best mouth splint, you can still grind the muscles. All a mouth guard does is protect the tooth surface. And it will prevent teeth from closing so it helps protect the TM joint to some degree, at least.
It does not address the CAUSE. There can still be all kinds of muscle constrictions going on and there can still be jaw pressure.
But a mouth guard can be a wonderful helper. Was for me.
Looking back over your post, I see you already had this mouth guard / splint made. If it is soft, be mindful as to your habits at night. Look for signs of chewing.
COST of further evaluation with x-ray / image, etc.? Be aware that most insurances do not cover TMJ related issues. IF a structural issue with bone, etc. they might, though. Not if soft tissue, though.
And if not a structural cause, there are so many ways you can address this yourself. Good luck. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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- Diet. Environment. Two other areas to explore as to if you might be having mast cell reactions and then muscles get too tight at night. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- UPLEDGER INSTITUTE (particular method)
CranioSacral Therapy
[this type is excellent for those with lyme as there is no sudden twisting of the spine or neck - which should never be done with some who deals with lyme]
FIND A THERAPIST trained in UPLEDGER TECHNIQUE (not all trained in cranial-sacral also have the visceral training so do ask first.)
Some who are trained in this (such as a D.O. or P.T.) may be covered by your insurance. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Yes, TMJ was one of my early symptoms. And my jaw did lock and I had a splint made, which helped alot at the time.
Later, my chiropractor used the KST technique to fix jaw misalignment. You could contact the Koren Specific Institute and see if they have any practitioners in your area.
They use a tool called an arthrostim - looks like a small gun which rat-a-tats at 12 times a second. He put it on the lightest setting and sat behind me, did challenge tests for the jaw and used the instrument to move the jaw gently back into place. It was a temporary fix everytime.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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Keebler
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- Be sure you don't sleep with a cell phone in your bedroom. This is very important to your nerves / muscles.
It's not just about the light but also about the very magnetic pull of any kind of computer, pad, iPhone, cell phones and chargers. The electronic / magnetic impulses from such equipment does spark activity in the nerves in our brains & hearts. And it can really interfere with our own natural electrical rhythms.
If you have a TV or other electronics in the bedroom, be sure to unplug or turn off at the power strip. But if they are battery driven, get them as far away from you as possible at all times you are not using them, day or night.
Try to disengage with all electronics about 90 minutes before desired bedtime. I know night can be hard as we are sometimes wired and want to connect but this can be detrimental.
In some cultures / days gone by, you might have been able to go out and look at the stars, have quiet talks with those in your community, share a song or tale over the night fire.
Our electronics have become our campfire so to speak but that electromagnetic assault can create a spiral of discomfort, too.
A land line phone is much safer for conversations of length and won't disrupt the brain / heart activity as cell phones can. Good for evening chats with friends if you don't have a campfire community.
And, before bedtime might be a good time for some very gentle yoga, gentle music . . . looking through old National Geographic or travel magazines, art books, etc.
Even if you don't have the campfire setting, or even if alone, try a few campfire songs. If you play a musical instrument . . . or if you (just) sing. SING. HUM. It's so good in so many ways.
It can help relax the stomach and jaw muscles and soothe us. [Well, that would depend upon the style of song, I suppose.] -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- Surprising, several promising hits from a Google search for:
"acoustic lullabies to soothe the soul"
"lullabies around the world" & even
"lullabies for adults"
[I was a little afraid of what this "adult" search might bring in the wake of "Shades of Grey" and all but Google seemed to get my soulful intent and the choices are very nice, indeed.]
of course, electronic required to see / hear . . . but once that is done for a tune you like, you can get the lyrics, learn the tune and then do it yourself, no tools required, just your own voice, your steady breath & your heart.
If you have music on CDs, that is a better way to listen . . . no computer required.
If you live with another / others, this might be really fun. Maybe you have neighbors who would enjoy an evening song circle, too.
Singing is not just for the joy of it. The breath & muscle "work" is really important.
If you don't want to sing, be sure to do progressive muscle relaxation - tense & release - as that will help set you up for a more relaxed sleep.
And Diaphragmatic Breathing exercise. It's just that singing accomplishes all that and seems more enjoyable and works the throat muscles so they can relax better for sleep.
Even just humming is good for us in a variety of ways, too. Go to town with that. -
[ 03-20-2015, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I got a new memory foam topper, try different pillows, always wake up with sore neck, etc.
Could a regular nightguard really help tmj? I read repositioning splints are in 24/7 and move your jaw but not permanent unless you do phase two treatment. Would that be a waste of $? I feel like the left side of my teeth touch more than the right but i've already had braces, underbite fixed etc.
But if its from lyme would it be a waste of $ to go through getting that done? I already got a night guard from my dentist, $300. Not repositioning splint though.
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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posted
also have been trying to take magnesium three times daily
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- A repositioning splint would first require a good image of the structure of your jaw & TMJ bones.
I had one of these for a time and the hinges on the sides just tore away at my mouth tissue - and no amount of dental wax would cover the metal screws correctly.
I'm not sure of the mechanical parts of what might be needed IF your structure needs this, though.
If the problem is structural with bones being not where they should be, I'd say look into it, though.
If the problem is due to muscle tightness I don't see how it could help. Most bruxism is not due to structure but rather muscle tightness (with many different causes / influences).
It would be best to consult with a physical therapist who has specific training in TMJ therapy, too.
Biofeedback was VERY helpful for me to reposition my jaw, myself. Insurance may cover this. But it should be guided by a PT who is explicitly trained in TMJ therapy. Not all are. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- With a new foam topper, be sure to have an all cotton quilt on top of that when you sleep. And uncover it and air it out each day. With the windows open.
This is really important. When you can flip it over for a good air-out with outside air coming in, too. This will help offset the off-gasing that could be irritating to your nervous system & also to the endocrine system.
Especially then in evening, a quick fresh air flush of your bedroom would be good.
I hope the comfort of it helps. Just be sure to keep your air quality refreshed and keep some cotton layers between it and you.
If possible, have someone look at you from the side when you lie down - to be sure your spine / neck are in good alignment.
A PT is best to help you know what that would look like but some web sites may be good, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
well i read it would move the jaw to its most relaxed position.. But would you have to see a tmj specialist for that, for the xray? I already have a script for a neck one.
I also am waiting to see another llmd. I was also going to call a chiropractor near me and i hear he's very good. Maybe he can do tmj techniques? PT or chiro is what gets me stuck. All of this is so confusing on what to try first.
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- YOU can learn to move your own jaw to the most relaxed position better than some contraption can
unless there is a structural impediment.
Be VERY careful of any chiropractor who is not lyme literate. So many of them can cause damage by the typical techniques they use.
With lyme, the spinal cord is often very swollen or irritated and to suddenly twist that can be very damaging for someone with neuro lyme.
So very specific care must be taken. Please see one trained either in the technique that Robin123 suggests or in UPLEDGER.
Ultimately, you will need to be taught certain exercises. BIOFEEDBACK is the very best tool to help here, IMO. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Okay so maybe see a tmj specialist, i found one near me, and get an xray to see what's going on?
I will keep the upledger in mind thank you! I also remember your past comments on warnings about chiros. Really though, how is a PT and chiro different in treating necks and jaws?
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- Some DCs focus too much on just the bone structure, IMO.
A PT is a better TEACHER. and they are generally better at a fuller approach to hands on work with muscles.
The education aspect - the BIOFEEDBACK is what works best for TMJ training. Unless you learn how to put yourself in the best position, the other stuff is not going to have a lasting effect.
A PT is often far better at so much about TMJ - but they must be TRAINED specifically in TMJ work. Not all are.
Ask your LLMD for the best referrals. They will know. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
is it possible i wouldn't even need a repositioning splint and it's from lyme? And i've been told pt's focus on the muscles, but the chiro can help align your jaw?
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- It will do about one minute of good to "realign" the jaw if irritated muscles are pulling it out of whack.
Lyme causes nerves to be overly excited and that causes muscles to be irritated as all get out. It's just what lyme does. Magnesium helps calm that over excitatory nerve signaling.
But if the muscles have been tight for some time, you likely also need some real body work.
That is why you need a multi-faceted approach and a PT or better yet, a LMT (license massage therapist) to really work with the soft tissue, help soothe out any tight constrictions with pressure point massage or the like
and PT / Biofeedback to help you learn how to hold yourself. I do not think this can be done without biofeedback. I needed massage, magnesium, etc. but the BIOFEEDBACK was key in allowing all those other things to work, too.
Insurance will most likely pay for a PT / Biofeedback but not for a LMT. Most PTs do some body work but sometimes not as much as we need. Still . . . I suggest
call your LLMD's office manager and ask for the best people who they have on their list for TMJ issues, all around. They may have a variety.
IMO, it is absolutely necessary that whomever you see is at least basic lyme literate in the safety matters. If your LLMDs office can recommend someone, that's a big start.
And
consult your insurance coverage to find a PT who is trained in BIOFEEDBACK. Go to that PT's professional web page and see if they also have some TMJ training /certification.
If you go to the UPLEDGER site, you can find some PTs who have taken that cranial sacral training, too. If such PTs are not on the LLMD referral list, ask if they've ever heard of them. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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If some pt's do what a chiro can do why are there both?! I know a chiro near me who i hear does massage too
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- It depends on the individual practitioner. Across the board, there are excellent ones and also disasters in any specific discipline. I've been very much damaged by some, very much helped by others. Learned the hard way.
Ask your LLMD and at your local lyme support groups to see if anyone has been to the DC near you.
Also see if there are any TMJ support groups in your area. Contact them for some experiences.
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- One of the PTs who worked on my jaw was trained not just also in massage therapy but she also sent me to a Feldenkrais practitioner (she paid for that as a gift to me).
Another PT who worked with me was also trained to teach me Biofeedback and she was also UPLEDGER trained. I hit gold with all 3 of them, and they each has skills that complemented the other.
Feldenkrais is an excellent movement education program. Some kind of movement education is vital. and BIOFEEDBACK is the only way I know to really be able to tell / learn when you are in the best alignment.
I do not have to look over this much. Be sure this is a CERTIFIED Feldenkrais person. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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So you didnt use the reposition splint?
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- The fancy one, upper and lower with a lever sort of thing on each side - cost well over a thousand dollars and I got about 2 weeks on and off out of it. The metal hinges just tore up my mouth tissue too much.
I knew nothing then about magnesium, though. They were negligent in not telling me that magnesium could eliminate the need for that -- or biofeedback, etc. I also had not yet known about lyme being the CAUSE of all this.
The more basic hard acrylic upper night splint worked the best for me.
One that was gummy bear soft was terrible and made it all so much worse. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- Ultimately, while you have many things to help listed here, be sure your priority is the best lyme treatment you can get, with the best liver support with that.
I would not spend money on any of this if it takes away from lyme / support protocol. Many with lyme / TMJ have done all the bells and whistles only to say not much worked other than treating lyme.
Although, in the meantime, you need some relief. And learning how to hold your body / jaw / head is important and so many of us just do that all wrong.
I hope your insurance will pay for BIOFEEDBACK. That training so you can know / feel / be certain of best jaw placement is simply gold. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Over a 1,000 and insurance didnt cover? That is very costly... i currently have a night guard that was $300 and i have been taking turmeric and magnesium. I have 400 mg magnesium citrate... That is a 3 softgel serving. So i have been trying to take 3 a day.. i never notice any herbs etc help though
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- Not sure if you are dividing 400 mg into the whole day (too little) or taking one 400 mg magnesium 3 x day (about right but you could go up to 4 x day to 1,600 mg.)
Turmeric is not like most herbs. If you have not yet taken it, you may find that it seems to work a bit differently than most herbs. TuTu's point of mentioning Turmeric is for the anti-inflammatory effects. Best with food, in the middle of a meal at first to see how you do with it. If not for you, there are others.
But you ARE taking some kind of herbs for liver support, I hope? Like Milk Thistle (one of the best for the liver). Liver support with antibiotics is so important. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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The repositioning splint took away all the TMJ pain when I had it done. I just wore it at night. I recommend it. Done with a TMJ specialist.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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was it realllly expensive? :/ and arent those supposed to be worn 24/7
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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Keebler
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- Get the NAME of the kind of splint recommended for you. Then you can see a photo of it for starters. You can read about others' experiences and if there were any trouble shooting issues / solutions - or not.
Some models are more effective than others. Some models are more comfortable than others. Some can outright cut. Mine did. The only solution offered at that time did not work. But find out what's new for solutions if this is the model suggested for you.
Day, Night, or Both?
Yes, some might be worn all day and night, too, other than for eating. But that is individually prescribed. Some are worn only night. If wearing during daytime during extreme pain helps, that is usually suggested.
(not the name of my model but exact in all features. Over time, names may change or different companies may have various names)
Acrylic Splint HERBST - click on photo to see larger picture of this. The side bars are what presented such an obstacle for me. The tiny screws were rough - and the dental wax never really worked well.
The metal hinges are tiny little long rods that fit inside larger ones when apart. You load it together as you put it in. That part is easy.
The metal is based in acrylic pieces that snap onto the teeth. That was fine for me. It was the hinge part, at the screws, that cut me.
Now, it may be that now they could put some kind of super glue OVER those screws but they are also sort of needed for adjustments. If this is the one selected for you ASK them if there is a new idea to solve this problem other than wax (that will not stay put).
However, there are four models here. The other 3 look much more comfortable. And there are likely OTHER kinds as well. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- If you have migraines, insurance MIGHT cover a realignment splint. Or they may for some other symptom. Do check.
Same with biofeedback, it may not be covered for TMJ but it was covered for me due to migraine / head ache symptom treatment.
If you learn how to hold your jaw during the day, the splint is not as necessary during that time. At night, of course, our awareness drifts away. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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I went to a tmj orthodontist. He repositioned my jaw with a splint, then had me wear braces to get my teeth in the right place for my jaw to want to be in the new position. It's the teeth that seem to move the jaw to the wrong place.
I tried a chiro and it gave me temporary relief. Sometimes it would hold for a couple weeks, but it would always move back because my bite would pull it back out of whack.
My jaw was also too narrow for my teeth, so the ortho widened my bite substantially. The whole process took a couple years, but it was worth it.
I had TMJ problems for decades, but didn't have it fixed because the old method included breaking the jaw and I wasn't going to do it. I had real structural problems. I don't think the Lyme caused the TMJ but it certainly took advantage of my weak spot and seemed to make it worse.
Insurance covered the whole process for me because it fell under medical insurance since it was a joint. My ortho said it was the first time he ever saw braces covered (and he's not a young guy!)
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
would it be a good idea to see a tmj specialist to just see what is going on with the jaw?
if lyme is the culprit for tmj, would a repositioning splint be a waste of money? i tried messaging you Keebler, but i couldn't do it.
Posts: 315 | From Allentown | Registered: May 2014
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posted
TMD is a 'disorder' that anyone can get. It is basically how your teeth align and how you bite.
With Lyme, yes, the TMJ is a joint. Lyme loves joints.
I've been in dentistry for so many years, I hate to disclose! I also have had horrible TMD problems. I had the disk come off the condyle on the joint at one time and I was locked open/sideways for 7 days.
There is a boomerang looking disk between the condyle that sits between the joints on each side. The popping sound you hear is the disk moving with your open and close chewing, etc.
Yes, splints work on some people. It did not on me. I ended up tensing up with it in my mouth, and did not relax and move my bite like it should have. I worked side by side with my dentist all day long too.
If your bite is off, it will torque your jaw joints more, if you grind your teeth at night, it will torque it. There are many possibilities for the pain and the problems.
BUT... because lyme LOVES to find our weakest points, it will find this joint.
So, is TMD from Lyme? Not always. Can Lyme make it worse, yes. Can Lyme be the reason for the TMD? Maybe not totally.
Some great tips that you'd have to pay for at a dentists are:
Sleep on your back. Sleeping on the side of your face only torques your jaw to one side. It's hard to do, but back sleeping is the best way to start healing it.
When not talking, remember to do this: Lips together, teeth apart. This will drop your jaw into a more relaxed position. Lips together, teeth apart!
You need to treat your sore jaw like you would a sprained ankle. DO NOT chew thick, heavy things for a week or so. This means no steak, no sticky chewy foods, bagels, and the like of anything hard to chew. Stay with soft food.
Yes, splints cost a lot. General dentists sometimes make them, other times, specialty dentists make them.
It all depends on why your bite is so tight or not fitting correctly? Did you have braces? did they extract adult teeth if you had braces? Do you grind? Do you have a locked in type of bite? There are other methods of redoing your bite, but without knowing what exactly your bite and teeth look like, I can't say much more.
The dentist I worked for, opened my bite. Not something that would be done for most people, as he crowned most of my upper teeth, and made the bite plane in a way that it opened my bite. This would cost a fortune if you went this way... I worked with him, so I only had to pay lab costs.
Seeing a dentist that you trust is the key. There are some out there that will not care as much for your bite and just talk splint instead of maybe correcting the issue. Maybe braces would be an answer too. Some of the newer splint type of braces that move things very slow but yet change your bite.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
FYI: TMD will also make your neck hurt, horrible headaches doing down the back side of your neck on each side, and it will make you feel like you have ear infection. All related to the joint and disorder.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Six is right about the teeth causing the jaw to get out of alignment. My DDS has a T-scan and it makes sure all of the teeth are in alignment. He's an expert at using this somewhat new technology.
He's worked on me twice and eliminated all TMJ pain. I could barely open my mouth in the mornings to eat breakfast a few years ago.
posted
Teeth themselves do not cause the jaw to get out of alignment, the way they 'fit' together in the bite is what is the issue.
As we get older, teeth can shift too. What is needed is a whole work up on a bite plane to see how locked in your teeth are when biting together. Can you move at all? Or are they locked into place, making every bite you take torque your jaw.
Teeth are ok, the way they are positioned as they come together,is the issue. And or, if you grind. Grinding is a huge issue with TMD.
There are all sorts of new technology for taking pictures of your bite and jaw. Most newer dentists in the last 10 years would have these units.
Fixed appliances as the Herbst are usually only used for orthodontic type of procedures. I've helped cement many of them into place in mouths. They are only used for certain bites for certain movements, not all.
A removable appliance is the best way if you do not do ortho work. But as I have not seen your mouth and bite, a dentist that is qualified is the best bet.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
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Teeth themselves do not cause the jaw to get out of alignment, the way they 'fit' together in the bite is what is the issue.
As we get older, teeth can shift too. What is needed is a whole work up on a bite plane to see how locked in your teeth are when biting together. Can you move at all? Or are they locked into place, making every bite you take torque your jaw.
Teeth are ok, the way they are positioned as they come together,is the issue. And or, if you grind. Grinding is a huge issue with TMD.
There are all sorts of new technology for taking pictures of your bite and jaw. Most newer dentists in the last 10 years would have these units.
-
Exactly... this is what Six and I meant. My DDS has the new equipment and he teaches other dentists how to use it. He's a leading expert on this.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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