posted
Has anyone ever tried this for Lyme? If so how did it go? Do you have the HLA genes?
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Keebler
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posted
- Not sure what kind of plant preparation you would be talking about here, or the legality of that - still, even naturally,
the various "types" of phenethylamine in this could make it life threatening for someone with lyme. Just leaving it at that, yet, there is nothing in this that would have me thinking it could even treat lyme at all.
Echinopsis pachanoi (syn. Trichocereus pachanoi) — known as San Pedro cactus . . .
. . . Echinopsis pachanoi is known by many names throughout South America such as Achuma, Huachuma, Wachuma, Aguacolla, Hahuacollay, or Giganton. . . .
. . . The San Pedro cactus contains a number of alkaloids, including the well-studied chemical mescaline (0.21–1.8%),
. . . Mescaline (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine) is a psychedelic drug and entheogen . . . .
. . . There are various mescaline extraction techniques, simple (simmering in water 5 to 7 hours) and complex (such as an acid-base extraction), the latter technique yielding a material with a significantly higher concentration of mescaline. . . .
. . . In the United States, mescaline was made illegal in 1970 by the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act.
It was prohibited internationally by the 1971 Convention on Psychotropic Substances[12] and is categorized as a Schedule I hallucinogen by the CSA. . . . -
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Keebler
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Phenethylamine (PEA), also known as β-phenylethylamine (β-PEA) and 2-phenylethan-1-amine, is an organic compound and a natural monoamine alkaloid, a trace amine, and also the name of a class of chemicals with many members that are well known for their
psychoactive and stimulant effects.[4] . . . .
-- As to just a few reasons this can be so dangerous for someone with lyme: the neuro-toxic-excitatory nature of lyme, itself. And the adrenal, cardiac considerations, the liver, etc. This could be fatal to someone with lyme. -
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Keebler
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- When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods, because lyme is so very complex & unique, as are possible coinfections:
if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL ND (lyme literate naturopathic doctor) (or similar) who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -
- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present, and has completed the ILADS Physician Training Program (see: www.ilads.org )
so they really know all they can about the science of lyme . . . how lyme (& other TBD) act and what we can do about that in various ways. Proper ASSESSMENT of not just lyme but coinfectoins is vital. Someone trained by ILADS is best to assess.
Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.
When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.
For those considering complementary support methods / or other avenues entirely:
Herbal Safety considerations & reference books; etc.
Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:
knowing which methods offer assertive & direct impact, which are only support and which are both. And when to use what, how to combine, & when to step back.
You can compare and contrast many approaches with links to articles, books, methods . . . . -
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posted
Perhaps I mistyped. Not necessarily for "treating" Lyme.
In certain shamanic traditions it is considered a healing medicine. It is something that is done in sacred ceremony in a healing context.
I should have asked if anyone had participated in a sacred ceremony using this medicine and if so, how it effected their Lyme.
I'm open to non-traditional methods of healing, and I have heard of people who have done Ayahuasca with great results. This a a far more gentle method, and I'm curious to see if anyone has tried it.
But thank you for all of that information.
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Keebler
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posted
- Those with lyme / TBD / any chronic stealth infection should avoid any substance that is psychoactive, so stimulating to various body systems &/or neuro-excitatory.
There are serious reasons for this, not trying to prevent anyone from a mental vacation - just focused on preventing medical damage. Lyme changes so much about how any body can process substances. So much.
And it's usually a very complex and messy thing to taunt that.
Just one thing of many things - besides cardiac arrest, adrenal crisis, anxiety attack of long duration or liver damage - that could happen would be to develop MCS and that can be terrible thing to get hit with [multiple chemical sensitivities] that will alter life far beyond what one can even imagine.
Sometimes - and especially with lyme - honoring one's spirit involves not partaking of mind altering substances.
Go for some good dark chocolate instead. A massage, hypnosis, a yoga retreat . . . or if you want more action: a parachute jump. So many other ways to get a good substance free zone out or a high - or an insightful & mindful journey.
Whatever you are seeking, there are various way cool ways of approaching it without risking harm. So pack two parachutes, eh?
[Metaphorically speaking, of course. Sky diving might not be a good choice but I could not think of anything else as colorful. You can find exhilarating, colorful, mind awe in other ways, though.]
There are all kinds of meditative healing retreats that don't involve chemical risk. Awe and "Ah-Hah!" moments should not involve risk of anything precious such as one's very body. -
[ 09-19-2016, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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- Undoubtedly, the unique aspects of lyme can cause all kinds of turmoil in one's life. And, if one is open to introspection and wants to explore esoteric matters around being ill,
it's best to find a therapist who is exceedingly well educated in all aspects of lyme / TBD / chronic stealth infection and their impact, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually.
Here's a site for such a therapist, although on the other side of the country from you so this is the basic template to see, read articles, etc.
You might call their office and see who they might recommend in your area. Also contact the second group below for a referral of similar caliber.
posted
There's some interesting research being done on microdosing psychedelics, seeing some things related to mental health issues like depression and PTSD. Just one example:
Considering that many are able to experience healing from various ailments through energetic medicine, it stands to reason that introducing something that causes a nearly imperceptible, subtle shift could open blocks and increase the capacity to heal.
At this point I'm not sure I'd be interested in the full San Pedro cactus experience, even if it was legal. But being sick with Lyme and co's who can really say what they wouldn't be willing to do to get better given enough time.
There's so many treatments that have many different effects. I think there is so much more that can be learned in the area of healing.
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bluelyme
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posted
There is a thread on kambo ..seems interesting ..my friend went to s america .after 6 yrs abx and 3 yrs bvt said it helped on the ptsd victimization aspect ..she climbed a mountain
i got a homeopathic of it havent noticed ...here we have a nightshade called gypsum grows wild ..my friends uncle did some and said it opened his mind but messed up his eyes literally ..2 days un real..
i have another buddy who has had some gains from his parkinson ra with pcilocybin and thc large dose ...he claims he can change terrain with his psyche .. he has only done a few abx 1 round helminith and a few bees and he is all mind over matter like a hatter
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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Keebler
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- It's one thing to be "open" to natural aspects of healing. My concern is being very careful - with just as much prior study as I'd do on any Rx, I do that on any herb, too. Well, actually, I do much more because there is so much more to study about them.
Finding the scholars in the field is so important. Then finding those who are also very lyme literate because lyme really does change so much about how a body functions.
There are doctors who specialize in herbal medicines, some focus solely on a particular region of the world. The "How to Find a LL ND" post above has many book / article links for Chinese Medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, some delve into Native American plants, etc.
Homeopathic detail is there, too, and that touches on the idea of "micro-dosing" in a way.
Buhner's work as a master herbalist, which many here know about, pulls knowledge from various regions. You will find his works in that links set, too.
For South American / herbs from the Amazon, it would be a good introduction to study the work of the author below and then connect professionally or find another with the same caliber of study & experience.
Within the "How to Find a LL ND" links set are links to books / articles by Leslie Taylor, ND, who is expert in Rainforest / Amazon herbs. Excellent place to start learning more. -
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posted
I'm looking more for the experience of the sacred ceremony than, say, skydiving. And a psychotherapist is the last thing in the world I want. I'm generally a very happy person. I have my moments of upset, but I just go with it for a little bit, recognizing that what I'm feeling is normal, accept the feelings, and then I'm back to being happy again. In fact, I'm kind of annoyingly chipper for a sick person. LOL!
I already have MCS, though it's a lot better than it was. I used to not be able to even walk BY the cleaning product aisle (let alone down it!) without getting dizzy and a headache.
One of the major problems I have with "science" is that in the area of plant medicine they don't know very much. I have great results with supplements and herbs, but when I was recently hospitalized (for what turned out to be Lyme) the doctors there told me my symptoms were being CAUSED by the supplements I was taking!
When there is a cold or flu going around people around me take cold "medicine" they buy over the counter, while I make a huge pot of herbal tea. Guess who feels better the fastest? ;-)
I know too, that indigenous people have been very guarded about sharing their medicine with westerners in the past, so we are just now learning about some of these things.
Hell, there was a time that cupping was considered backwoods witch doctor stuff, and now we see Michael Phelps on network TV with the marks on his body and everyone is talking about it!
I tried searching for San Pedro articles, but there were not a lot. I am a hugely spiritual person, which is why this appeals to me, in theory anyway.
Interesting about the Kambo. It works on Malaria. I wonder if it would work on my Babesia too?
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posted
And in the "things I didn't expect" file, ILADS doc just cleared San Pedro! (Obviously, this is specific to ME - please consult with your own ILADS doc if you are considering this route).
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sparkle7
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Interesting topic. It may be something to do for "spiritual guidance" but I don't know if these types of medicines can offer a "practical" cure for something like Lyme or the co-infections, parasites, viral, bacterial or other pathogens, chemical toxicities, etc.
There are some "doctors" who are interested in the healing properties of these kinds of substances.
There are plant medicines that can help but they are not necessarily psychedelic (i.e.: Cowden or Bruner's herbal protocols...).
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sparkle7
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PS - Have you looked into Terrence McKenna? His life is an interesting example of someone who was an advocate of the psychedelic experience.
Eventually, he had a bad trip & never did psychedelics again. He had to maintain a "front" that he was into it since he had so many followers. He made his living from lecturing & sharing his knowledge. In the end - he wasn't really an advocate of the experience, though.
I'm not saying not to try it - just that it has it's limitations...
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posted
I'm very into plant medicine in general. I didn't start out that way, but have such terrible reactions to most pharmaceuticals that I ended up learning about plant medicine as self preservation.
The use of psychedelics in general for treatment o medical conditions is not a new thing. It has been around forever in indigenous cultures.
Personally, I think that keeping them against the law is a way to disempower the indigenous healers and keep what they do illegal.
I checked out that website. I think it's interesting that they have pharmaceutical versions. Which, IMO, is probably the only way they will get it passed as legal. Big Pharma needs a way to make money on it, or it won't pass.
I will certainly report back on how it goes. I will be interested to see if it's just spiritual guidance or healing as well. It's supposed to have a healing aspect to it, and I have seen documentaries about similar substances with very sick people having great effects.
I'm very aware it is not a "cure", but rather a tool.
I keep trying to get into Terence McKenna. Mostly because people bring him up, and I think, "Oh, I should try again." Every single time I try to read or listen to anything of his, I just get turned off. It's something about the way he talks/writes. I don't even necessarily disagree with him. I just can't stand his method of communication. Something about it rubs me the wrong way. *shrug*
I'm also looking into Buhner and Cowden, in that order, and will be adding that, in some form, to all the other things I'm doing.
In the meantime, when an opportunity like this arises, I think you just say yes. ;-)
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Keebler
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- My concern for safety remains that - for those who deal with lyme / TBD / chronic stealth infections - this kind of psychedelic stimulant is best to avoid due to matters mentioned in my posts above.
However, if you go ahead: after being sure the Shaman has much experience not just with this but with a full range of native plants and attends to other health matters for all ranges, too. If they do just this, find another who has a broader background.
As you have a pre-session or whatever it might be called with the shaman, just be sure they know about the adrenal & heart issues that can go with lyme and that sensitivities to chemical substances (even some in plants) / MCS is also something to consider.
So they know your body is different from those without lyme regarding excitatory stuff. They may adjust any formula or combination that would go with the main ingredient.
Aside from whatever events or session for San Pedro, you might find a Shaman who is very experienced, who could help in a broader spectrum.
If the Shaman you have connected with regarding this one matter is not as well educated in that spectrum, you might inquire at your local and state support groups for the reputation of a really good Shaman will surely get around.
There are a few out there who call themselves such but don't really meet the standards. Another contact might be the Native American Tribal organizations in your state. They would most likely recommend only one with proper experience and skill, if you talk with the elders of the group.
You mentioned interest in other herbal protocols. The links set above has many articles / books. I hope the selection there will be a good start.
Still, other than a combination formula or such suggested by an experienced Shaman,
For several reasons, it's not good to add anything at all - even important to be off all other herbs - if you are going to do the psychedelic plant that you asked about [Echinopsis pachanoi (syn. Trichocereus pachanoi) — known as San Pedro cactus] or any others similar in nature.
Keep a very clear separation of protocols.
A clear separation of several days or a full week (both directions of time if use will be repeated) so that the San Pedro has no chance of interaction with others.
And still best to consult an LL ND for advice as to how to approach other herbal formulas outside of the "safety window" and in consideration of whatever else your body is doing. -
[ 09-21-2016, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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sparkle7
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Red Dragon - sent you a private message...
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posted
I totally get your concern Keebler. And I thank you for raising those issues.
The shaman is experienced with Lyme patients.
I have actually been thinking about looking for local shamans to connect to too, thank you for the suggestion. I was wondering how I was going to find them!
I did clear the herbs I'm already taking with the shaman, and they are fine. I will be holding off on starting any new things at all until after the ceremony, which is next week.
I will be for sure checking out all those other links, but in the meantime, my LL ND has already cleared me, so I'm going to trust they know what they are talking about.
Plus, on a spiritual level, this has been something I have wanted to do for a while. I have been asking the Universe for it lately, and the opportunity arose from essentially out of nowhere. I know a gift from the Universe when I see one, and I trust the Universe would not send me this gift if it would be harmful to me.
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Keebler
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- The physical human body and chemicals from the physical plant world are still involved regardless of how much of a spiritual mindset one may seek.
To help plan / arrange for a designated driver, etc. You may have already found this as you've compiled experience research on your own. In case not:
Excerpts: [jumping in where he talks about mescaline because it's a major component of the plant]
. . . Regardless of the type of the mescaline, several sources advise that the ingestion be spaced out over a thirty minute period. This reduces the potential impact of nausea.
Note: nausea is an intrinsic characteristic of pure mescaline itself, and so cannot be avoided entirely. In my experience with San Pedro, nausea is strongest between about two hours and four hours after ingestion, and largely goes away by five hours after ingestion.
Mescaline containing cactus have an intensely disagreeable bitter flavor. Some people react more strongly to this flavor than others.
For this reason, many people may be tempted to "slam it down" as quickly as possible... but this can lead to more severe nausea.
On the other hand, spacing the ingestion out over a period much longer than 30 minutes can cause more nausea as the intensely disagreeable flavor is made even worse by the beginning mental and physical effects of the mescaline ingested at first. (This is from the personal experience of a friend who spread it over an hour and a half.) . . . .
. . . personally find San Pedro to be less visual than either LSD or psilocybin, although others have described pure mescaline as being more visual than either.
There is something of an amphetamine like central stimulation, coupled with a general physical sense of sedation and fatigue.
For me, the effects are generally characterized by a contrast of opposites: a simultaneous feeling of stimulation and sedation, of physical restlessness and fatigue, of increased emotional sensitivity and emotional inhibition.
The effects last longer than for either LSD or psilocybin, and take longer to take effect.
In my experience, the first significant effects do not occur for over an hour after ingestion, and the effect gradually intensifies up to the three hour point or beyond.
The plateau is broad and long lasting, and it is difficult to pinpoint when the effects begin to wear off.
It can be difficult to sleep even 12 hours after ingestion. The effects of San Pedro can generally be described by "mild" and "mellow", and this is somewhat dose independent.
Although the visual and mental effects do increase gradually with higher doses, the underlying physical symptoms seem to increase at a higher rate,
so that very high doses may cause a "toxic reaction" type of trip (by which I mean that the subject remains focused on uncomfortable physical sensations -- the sense of having been "poisoned").
All of this description may be specific to San Pedro cactus, as discussed above. . . . -
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Keebler
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- Within your state, some interesting organizations pop up from a Google search for:
mindfulness, California
&
meditative healing, California
- has even more interesting links, scroll down and also onto pages beyond the first page. More retreat and experiential focus to some of the links here.
If you find a group that resonates, as you study their work to learn more, you might call them to find any practitioners who may even live near you.
Some retreats also have scholarship or reduced fare. -
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