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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Hyperbaric Chamber... Any Success?

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Author Topic: Hyperbaric Chamber... Any Success?
k-lyme
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Hi All,

Has any of you had any success with hyperbaric treatment. My symptoms are getting worse and have just recently found out that along with the bartonella, I have babesia. Your replies are greatly appreciated. THANKS!


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WildCondor
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It works great its just really expensive.
If you type in search on here and put in hyperbaric you will see all the past posts on the topic.
Monoplace chambers are the best and run $150-200 bucks per treatment and with Lyme you need a high # of treatments, i've done over a hundred. Some people have success with multiplace and mild chambers too.
Its best when done on high doses of combinations of antibiotics.

It make a major difference for me.

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phage
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WildCondor

Did the treatments make you herx? That is, can I do a couple of sessions to see if they make me herx and then decide based on that whether or not it will work for me? It would be nice to get the herx feedback before spending so much money on so many "dives".


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LJamesJohnson
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Virtually everyone I dove with (30-40 individuals in a six-person chamber) herxed, and most had major herxes cycling through the treatment.The occassional person did not herx and did not receive any perceived benefit from the treatment.

In general, about a third of the people received significant improvement from their symptoms, about a third got some improvement, and about a third didn't get a lot of help. Factors in this equation could be the length of time a person was diving, did they use the right combination of ABX, especially IV ABX, what co-infections did they have and were those treated, were metals and candida an issue, and did they have Lyme disease in the first place.

Wildcondor is right, that major ABX should be used along with HBO, if possible, especially IVs.

I've written about my experience with HBO at http://www.lymetreatment.com/HyperbaricOxygen.html.


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jen13
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I have a different perspective.

I did hbo in clinics at 2.5 ata twice--once for 30 days, then for 60 days.

I did it without antibiotics but I dove with those who were doing it with antibiotics, and without.

I think the pressures are too high, for the time required (many months) to gain from it. A month is not enough.

I use a home chamber that goes to about 1.3 ata, and use it about twice a week, and it has greatly improved my life, and I have it longterm. I don't do it with antibiotics.

James relapsed...a few years after his 150 sessions. It needs to be done longterm, and the higher pressures are not necessarily "all good"--thats an experiment in the making, no other group dives at those high pressures for months at a time.


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phage
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LJamesJohnson

Thanks a lot for the web site!

It says about you:
"After 1 1/2 years symptom-free and off antibiotics, Johnson relapsed in December 2001 after moving from the West coast to the East coast. Apparently, freezing temperatures in New York forced the relapse. "

Is the role of temperature generally accepted? I lived many years in the clammy, damp willamette valley of Oregon and believed that the lack of sunshine was causing me Seasonal Affective Disorder. I've posted previously about the failure of bright light "therapy" to improve my condition. I moved to the Deep South hoping that the increase in sunshine would help. I do feel much better, but after finally learning about Lyme I'm now convinced that it is the heat (not the light) that is helping.

I assumed this was sort of an accepted idea in the Lyme community given that Borrelia prefers 34C to 37C, but when I described my experience previously, some members insisted that for them it was in fact the light that was mediating their seasonal "remission:" Is there a consensus on the influence of body temperature on Lyme severity? It seems to explain a lot for me and I'm hoping it will give me some measure of control over the disease (by keeping warm).

Also, have you heard of anyone using scuba diving as a surrogate to the chambers? I've come across one, second hand, report that scuba diving caused someone to herx. I was signed up to get certified but cancelled for the time being as I'm trying something else. Sixty feet of depth would be almost 3 atm of pressure; and with "Enhanced Air Nitrox" you can now get your tanks filled with air that is about 40% oxygen. Do you know if anyone's tried this?


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phage
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Jen13

Are you saying that clinical treatments were not effective over the time frame you used them, or that they were effective but not realistic for long-term treatment?

How do you get concentrated oxygen for a home system? Does it come with a oxygen concentrator (in which case all you pay for is electricity)?

Borrelia is known to alter its gene expression based on elevated levels of oxygen. One of the concerns I have about the lower levels of the home system (which I know very little about) is that the borrelia may simply adopt a defensive posture (better than nothing) whereas the high levels characteristic of the clinical chambers might kill the bacteria outright. Is this distinction real, or my imagination?

I bought an oxygen concentrator a while back and occasionally feed the stream of oxygen into my CPAP (I may have mild apnea, so I use the machine just in case, especially because I'm concerned that the hypoxia of apnea may help the bacteria to propagate). I have not been consistent about it so I don't know if it helps are not.


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LJamesJohnson
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I have sought out patients and professionals alike, concerning the direct correlation my body has with cold temperatures. So far, I can't find an objective rationale for it, and I certainly have not been able to find a consensus. Theories abound.

One patient does well in cold areas, others do better in warm, dry climates. Some like it hot, some like it cold. Go figure. Others are affected by passing storms and changes in barometric pressure.

In my case, I was infected on the prairies, a few miles north of North Dakota in Saskatchewan. With no diagnosis and no treatment I began the slow transition into winter. I could feel the nausea, fatigue, and other symptoms rise in my body as the temperature dipped below freezing. The colder it got, the worse the symptoms were.

This first winter, still undiagnosed, I spent a month between -30 and -40 and I thought I was going to die.

Other Lyme patients are affected by the cold, but as far as I know, I am the only one I have found that has such a direct relationship between the onset of symptoms and temperatures that drop below freezing.

When I lived in Chico, CA for three years following HBO there, the dry, hot, Arizona-like climate helped put Lyme in remission. I relapsed in the first snowfall after moving to NY in 2001.

I now attribute my relapse to stress, candida and metals, along with colder temperatures.

But remember, each person is different where one stimulus can have an opposite effect on two different Lyme patients. You really have to find what works for you, and what works against you.

And yes, Jen, HBO only put Lyme in remission and it would have been better to have continued treatment long term, though doing 150 near-consecutive dives was very long term at the time, but it didn't get them all. Longer is better.

BTW, Jen has taken HBO to the next level with Lyme patient home care. If you find that HBO works for you, this seems like a very good way to go, if you are able. It will not only help kill Lyme bacteria, but HBO supports the immune system while doing other, very good things to your body.

Jen uses HBO, in part, because she can't do ABX, and as she has said, it is of considerable help to her. However, it is believed that HBO actually helps ABX kill borrelia. This is something I wrote that is included on the previous link that I posted:

Angiogenesis Plays a Role

HBO therapy facilitates angiogenesis. Angiogenesis is defined as the development of blood vessels in the body. This may become important in the treatment of Lyme disease because it is believed that Lyme bacteria effectively evade antibiotics by moving away from normal blood flow into tissue, organs and bone. Thus, the farther that the antibiotic can move into these areas through a more dense and extensive system of blood vessels, the greater the opportunity to kill the Bb organism.

HBO therapy's facilitation of angiogenesis allows the antibiotic to potentially have a greater effect on Lyme bacteria by helping to move the antibiotic closer to those parts of the body where the bacteria may be residing.


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jen13
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I'm sorry I didn't respond to phage and JJ earlier--I just didn't see the thread update, I guess. I only skim some threads each day.

Phage, so much to do with chronic lyme is speculation, so I can't really answer your question. I will say I was talking with a knowledgeable friend tonight and we agreed that if most of lyme was sent into cyst form (via threat) that if you kept up the treatment for a few years, the cysts would eventually degrade. They can't live forever, it's known that their ability to produce daughter spirochetes lessens over time and finally they are incapable. So, let's say my mild hyperbaric oxygen treatments at the level I'm doing them (I did 30 minutes last Wednesday, 30 minutes tonight, i.e. about once every 4-5 days for 30-40 minutes) simply causes the spirochete to revert into cyst form since it doesn't like the oxygen...kills some of the active form (there is enough oxygen to do that and I *know* it does because even at 30-40 minutes I will sometimes get achier, more neck cricks and cracks, etc, i.e. dieoff, and when I originally was doing an hour a day, I had significant dieoff although not as much as in a hardchamber at 2.5 ata)...etc...boosts the immune system which we know it does, helps detoxify and dampen inflammation which is what the whole benicar thing is about, helps all the cells function better, shifts you back into a parasympathetic calmer state, gets better sleep etc...

I mean, in such case, the benefits are so obvious, at least for me...

In retrospect, I think the 2.5 ata, 60-90 m day, 100% oxygen, running at 50 litres a minute (saturating my eyes btw which was NOT good for the lens, and the second round I kept my eyes closed)...was too much. The second time I did 2 months and had a major candida exacerbation after I stopped the hyperbaric. At that level and intensity, you're killing lots of anaerobes in the gut too but candida is a facultative anaerobe and will do fine without or with oxygen. I was also much hungrier, eating a lot more carbs before and after those sessions. So I personally in retrospect wish I'd known about the mild home chamber in the beginning and only done that. At the level I do it, it causes no candida problems at all.

Yes, my unit uses an 02 concentrator, an Integra that operates at 10 liters a minute. This is necessary because the backpressure of the chamber drops that down to about 8, and if you use a humidifier, maybe 7. And you really don't want less than about 7 liters a minute. So 02 concentrators that typically run 5 liters a minute, for emphysema, or other home use, are not sufficient.

James, you are right, it definitely seems to potentiate antibiotics and if used together as long as you aren't vulnerable to candida, is a good idea if you can tolerate both.

[This message has been edited by jen13 (edited 07 June 2004).]


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jen13
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Hi, LymeEd, yes it can worsen vision. Lymies do seem more susceptible from what I can see and I wonder if that is due to spirochete invasion of the eye, and thus die-off creating toxicity that needs to be mopped up, which some lymies may have trouble doing. But also, the lens of the eye gets its antioxidants through diffusion from surrounding tissues. It has no blood vessels. As it ages, it suffers from oxidation effects anyway (thus over 40 people have presbyospia, which is actually very early in the process toward cataracts, the lens is becoming less flexible and cannot adjust as easily to changes in distance), and eventually cataracts. Hyperbaric oxygen treatments can speed this process. People can have changes in vision based on the pressure and amount of oxygen. This is significantly lessened if they keep their eyes closed while in a monochamber or in the hood, because otherwise they are flooding their eyes with 02 from the outside also (permeable cornea). Myf irst 30 treatments I did with eyes open, no idea, and had myopia and afterwards mild presybospia that had not been there before. My second 60 treatments I did with eyes closed because the doc figured it out. The changes toward myopia went much more slowly that time. It is very annoying to me that the entire hyperbaric industry in this regard does not do a darn thing about this. Chico Hyperbarics tho a very good place, run by Mitch Hoggard, refuses to even admit it, and most others don't. They don't do enough followup with their patients to understand that a significant minority do get vision changes. Their gospel is that it's only from pressure but frankly, you can pressurize someone wtihout 02 and it doesn't happen. I recently explained this to the doctor who owns a multiplace in Santa Fe New Mexico. It is just another typical instance of doctors not really caring about their patients, not really listening, and not being willing to admit that a therapy has any downside at all. But it is obvious biologically and anecdotally that this happens. In fact, cataracts can be modelledin animals and *are*, by using hyperbaric oxygen at high pressure. Certain animals are genetically very susceptible, such as guinea pigs, so I think they tend to use them.

The low pressurs can probably do the same or someting a bit similar over time if you are sensitive. I keep my eyes closed even in my home chamber but because I"ve done so much hbo, I still notice changes. I am particularly sensitive, I think, more so than others I've talked to. But it is definitely a side effect, and as I said, the frustrating thing is that if the hyperbaric docs were open, and were talking with each other, they'd ALL already have a policy in place for all those who dive, including stroke victims etc, to keep their eyes closed.

In addition,t he 50 liters a minute flow rate isr eally high and quite unecessary.

The "more is better" idea in the hardchambers has no true backup. Its just trial and error. I'd think less is more would be smarter. Start someone at lower pressures and see hwo they respond. 2000% more oxygen is not necessarily what you need and may stress the system.

Same with candida, as I posted, the 2nd round of 2 months exacerbated it in me. Those were 90 minute sessions which for me were too long (I'd notice about an hour into it, I would sometimes go into almost a depression. It was transient, but I just think my body did not want that much oxygen). Each perrson is individual. Perhaps candida was also exacerbated because those longer sessions under high pressure made me very hungry, and I always ate carbs before and after, more than my usual fare.

Candida is just not a problem for me at lower pressures.

Even though I research everything for myself and question efverything and am cautious, in the case of hyperbaric, I accepted their gospel and it took me a while to understand that 1) 2.5 is not necessarily better and in fact may stress the system 2) you need to protect your eyes, and keep them closed 3) 90 m a day is not necessarily better than 60 m a day which is not necessarily better than a few times a week, its all individual and 4) it is a powerful adjunctive therapy but aint' gonna kill lyme on its own, so spending a ton of money for a month or two of treatment will likely get you somewhere but you may relapse over time. Many do. Sometimes kids are resilient enough not to.

By the way, the irony about the eyes is, the retina uses more oxygen than any other organin the body. So hyperbaric is also really good for part of the eye. It has reversed macular degeneration and other eye problems that were intractable I wish there were a better way to protect the lens by geting it glutathione. Maybe the IV glutathione is helping me, but I'd have to dial back history and try it during the hardchamber to know if it could prevent effects. I wear reading glasses now, and I'm sure that maybe I would have done so eventually, but it would have gone less slowly. I also am more sensitive to glare and headlights and so on. I have decided to pay this price at this point in time and watch it carefully. It is far more worth it to me to function in other ways. But that's one reason I use it sparingly, enough to keep me above a certain level, but not excessively. However, I should add again, that I tend to have a very very sensitive system genetically, and many interventions have a strong effect on me. I.E. I don't know anybody else who threw up from a glutathione/ATP shot (it was the ATP), and very few who have as hard a time with antibiotics as I do. I took trytophan and it helped me sleep but made my bladder burn. Etc etc. So I am definitely the canary in the hyperbaric chamber


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phage
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Jen13

Thanks for such a cogent response. I was strongly leaning towards hyperbaric oxygen but have suspended that intent, for now at least, in favor of Marshall's approach (not that they are mutually exclusive). Depending on how it goes I may choose to employ HBOT in the future. You make a persuasive case.


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