On the Meeting her in Eindhoven, The Netherlands last saterday I got the advice for Nic to change abx.

He was on Doxy 500mg (build up, but totally for three months) and Zithro (one month).

He decided to stop with the Doxy on tuesday. His stomach thanks him for this and Nic is happy that he can go in the sun again. But he is angry that his herx is still going on (this time for a full month), but he is still on Zithro and Magnesium.

Tomorrow he has an app. with his family-doctor. Than he will ask her for Flagyl and a bloodtest (kidneys and liver).

I know from an other topic on this forum how to build up the Flagyl slowly. I know that he has to take care for Candida. But are there other things that he can expect when he started Flagyl? He doesn't drink, so that isn't an issue. He says he will start on monday, but I know him. When he gets it tomorrow, he will start tomorrow .

Thanks & Greetings,

Nic & Ingeborg

I haven't taken flagyl for lyme, but many lymenetters have said it causes depression and bad herxes.

I'm sorry Nic has been herxing for a full month, that stinks!! I hope the herx passes soon for him, I hope he is also doing some detoxing.

Good luck with the flagyl.

You probably know it's a cyst buster and must be taken with another abx.

Let me put it this way. I've been on abx for two years. NOTHING and I do mean NOTHING made me herx like Flagyl/Cedax did.

I honestly thought it would kill me. I could barely get my body into a hot Epsom salt tub. All I could do was sleep and take Advil.

However, nothing brought me along further in my treatment than Flagyl either. So I guess you could call it a 2-sided sword.

As far as alcohol goes, my pharmacist even said to be very careful with facial cleansers, etc. that may contain alcohol. They will send Nic to the hospital.

Thanks for your replies.

Beverly: Nic doesn't do any detoxing at the moment, but when I read your post, I started looking for detoxing on this forum. He is very pigheaded, but I think and I will tell him that he can't handle the Flagyl without. When I wrote those posts about detox, I realised that during this one-month-Herx he started to take Magnesium but also Turkish coffee and that is much stronger than what he is used to. So I think when he doesn't want to overload his body with toxic he must stap over to d�cafe and tons of water and listen to his body.

Nancy: He will take the Flagyl together with the Zithro that he already started six weeks ago. I shall warn him not to clean his hands with Alcohol when he is on Flagyl. He will start on Monday with a quarter of a pill (250mg), second day two times a quarter etc. (I found this protocol somewhere else on this forum). How did you found out your improvement on Flagyl (besides the Herx)?

Thanks

Thanks for your replies.

Beverly: Nic doesn't do any detoxing at the moment, but when I read your post, I started looking for detoxing on this forum. He is very pigheaded, but I think and I will tell him that he can't handle the Flagyl without. When I wrote those posts about detox, I realised that during this one-month-Herx he started to take Magnesium but also Turkish coffee and that is much stronger than what he is used to. So I think when he doesn't want to overload his body with toxic he must stap over to d�cafe and tons of water and listen to his body.

Nancy: He will take the Flagyl together with the Zithro that he already started six weeks ago. I shall warn him not to clean his hands with Alcohol when he is on Flagyl. He will start on Monday with a quarter of a pill (250mg), second day two times a quarter etc. (I found this protocol somewhere else on this forum). How did you found out your improvement on Flagyl (besides the Herx)?

Thanks & Greetings,
Nic & Ingeborg [/B][/QUOTE]

The worst herx that I have ever had was five years ago with flagyl and Zithromax...all I could do was to eat ice cream and sleep.

Don't hesitate to take pain meds if you are herxing badly...at least that helps me with my flagyl herxes. If the herx is too powerful to handle, talk to the doctor about pulsing the flagyl...five days on, two days off...or something like that.

There are two schools of thought about terrible herxing. One says to tough it out and fight the good fight.
The other says to stop meds if the herxes are terrible, then begin them again according to doctor's orders.
So far I've toughed mine out, but not without help from Vicodin for the pain. I honestly don't have an opinion as to which is better.

I've been able to endure mine thus far, but it's different for everyone.

ON THE GOOD SIDE OF FLAGYL....

For me I weaned up slowly on the Flagyl because I herxed so badly after the first 24 hours at full dose. I tolerated this drug extremely well after weaning up on it, and I felt the BEST during the 2 months of taking this drug.

This drug pushed me from 65% to 80% better. With the weaning up on dosage I did not herx badly at all, and it still made me better. I am due to go back on it next month. My LLMD has a protocal of 2 months twice a year.

Anyway, that is my experince with Flagyl.

Nic started Sunday with one pill (250mg; I already told you...). Yesterday he felt good during the afternoon. He walked better and had more balance. In the evening he relapsed, but maybe it was because he went to far. But it gives him a better trust in the future.

For the moment he doesn't seem to Herx on the Flagyl.

This week he will take one pill a day, next week two and than three. We will see how far he can handle it.

Document Title: metronidazole = Flagyl says Atkinson-Barr

Dr. Martin Atkinson-Barr CPhys PhD (Calabasas, CA) and Dr. Vernon Padgett MD (Calabasas, CA) together with Dr.Richard Horowitz MD (Hyde Park, NY) are pleased to announce the discovery of a new treatment for Lyme Disease using the antimicrobial metronidazole (Flagyl).

Metronidazole was introduced 40 years ago for the treatment of trichomonas vaginalis and has previously been used for gingivitis, giardia and anaerobic bacterial infections. Though metronidazole is less widely used than it once was it is routinely available on prescription.

Lyme disease, named for the town of Lyme, Connecticut, is caused by the spirochetal bacterium Borrelia burgdorferi and is normally contracted from the bite of an infected deer tick Untreated or inadequately treated Lyme disease progresses to a severely debilitating condition called chronic or late-stage Lyme disease in which the spirochete affects the brain, organs and joints of the patient resulting in almost complete disability. Neurological effects include loss of cognitive function, slurred speech, violent rages and memory loss.

Normal antibiotics, whether administered orally or by the intravenous route, have been only partially successful in treating late-stage Lyme disease leading some physicians to conclude that late-stage symptoms may persist even after the infection had been cured.

Using metronidazole the authors have successfully treated late-stage Lyme patients where conventional therapies have not been beneficial. In particular severe neurological symptoms were eliminated leading to the conclusion that Lyme symptoms are a consequence of an ongoing infection and usual therapies are inadequate to treat the disease.

The authors have submitted a report of their discovery to the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine for publication. Following the initial work Dr. Horowitz confirmed the results in over 100 of his most severely affected patients and will report those results at the Lyme Federation Conference in New York, April 9-10th.

Lyme disease affects as many as 300,000 persons throughout the United States and cases have been reported in all of the states with the exception of Alaska and Hawaii. Lyme disease was recently confirmed to be carried by ticks in Southern California. The current cost of treatment and disability is estimated to be many billions of dollars and areas with a high incidence of the disease, particularly Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Connecticut and New York, suffer from impacts on tourism and real estate values.

Metronidazole is a simple and inexpensive treatment, costing $10 per month, using tablets taken by mouth. The required duration of the treatment is currently a matter of investigation though it is known that improvement in patients continues even after 4 months of metronidazole therapy. It is anticipated that metronidazole will be useful in the early stages of Lyme disease and possibly as a topical cream for the prevention of Lyme disease immediately following a tick bite.

Borrelia burgdorferi is one of a family of slow growing, spiral shaped bacteria which have been implicated in several difficult diseases. If metronidazole can be shown to be effective therapy against other similar bacteria it may open new approaches to the treatment of other conditions where there is evidence of a spirochetal cause including multiple sclerosis and Alzheimer?s disease.

The authors believe that this is one of the first medical discoveries to be made through the use of the Internet. Internet communication with patients on the newsgroup sci.med.diseases.lyme allowed anecdotal reports to be collected and Lyme patients to report their experiences. One characteristic of Lyme treatment is that patient?s condition initially deteriorates as the bacterium is killed. Using this information Lyme patients were canvassed for any adverse reactions they had experienced when taking metronidazole for unrelated conditions and some 30 patients confirmed worsening symptoms under such circumstances.

Thanks for your replies, especially 'LabRat'.

Yesterday Nic had a good day, at least the afternoon, but today it was worse again. Less balance in his legs and fatigue. He said he thinks the Flagyl starts to make him herx, but it isn't painfull 'till this far.

I think he must go on with building it up and than maybe a bit pulsing: one week on; one week off or something like that. He doesn't trust it when he doesn't take it constantly, but how can a cyst get resistent? Pulsing will be better for his liver I think and I guess his doctor will see it the same way. But when you or your doctors have other ideas, please tell me.

For Liz28, maybe you have to cut your dose down as slowly as we build it up before you stop?

Thanks & Greetings,
Nic & Ingeborg

Document Title: Re: Alternative to Flagl/- Tinidazole Repost

Tinidazole is a close relative of Flagyl, but does not carry the slight risk of liver cancer seen in studies (believe w/rats). It's easier to tolerate in general. Tinidazole is legal in the United States. It is not manufactured here. It is compounded by hand.
It can be ordered by your doctor faxing a scrip, i.e. to Hopewell Pharmacy, and they will mail it to you. First call them and set things up (the fax # is not thetoll-free number). In New Jersey you can obtain it from:
Hopewell Compounding Pharmacy: 1-800-792-6670.Fasigyn is a European brand name for tinidazol. Hopewell Pharmacy makes it up per order, as opposed to a drug co. making up huge batches. You can pay by plastic and then submit receipt for reimbursement to insurance co.
The fellow who did the research, (PhD) Dr. Martin Atkinson-Barr suggests 14 - 15mg./lb. of bodyweight is what some use (as opposed to 10mg/lb. For flagyl). The molecule is bigger and thus slightly more is needed.
It runs approx. $120 for a 30 day supply of 250 mg caps and $180 for a 30 day supply of 500 mg caps, depending on how many caps your doctor supplies.
Good luck!