This same lovely LLMD has been throwing oodles of Hydrocodone at me for years. I take it when I need it. At first, I refused, and my kids suffered, as mommy layed on the couch, unable to even pick them up. I was not on it while pregnant, even though I was in a lot of pain most of the time..

Then, I decided that they (my children) came first, and if taking something made the pain go away enough so that I could have a normal day with them, I would do it. My baby is a big little guy (over 22 lbs.) and hypotonic, meaning he's dead weight. Not a good match for a mommy with wrist pain!!

I am careful not to take it everyday, but have noticed that it now takes more to do the same job, and the effects don't last as long. IF I take it, I have to take 2 7.5 mgs, and then one more three hours later. One used to work great.

I don't need an addiction on top of all of this....

Anyone else relate or have any suggestions? I've tried joint supplements, arthritis meds, mobic, etc...nothing helped.

Also, I just wanted to say, that the tone on this board seems to be great again! I left for a while, as it seems that a few were getting a little..hmmm....non-supportive.....but everyone has offered wonderful insight and support. Thank you!

There are people who have "addictive personalities". These people become addicted to everything from asprin to wine to cold medication.

But I dont believe that the standard personality should worry about addiction.

I was on morphein when I was a burn patient. I was allowed as much as I wanted or needed. I was on morphein also when I got out. Now it is 10+ years later. I am not a morphein addict.

There are terminally ill patients who dont want meds because they will "become addicted". Or Dr's who wont give them the meds because they might "become addicted". The people are dying! So what if they did!?

There was a great article in Reason magazine this month (Libertarian publication) called Dr. Feelscared about Dr.'s afraid to give pain meds to very ill patients. They are scared to death of the DEA.

On a side note, I think if someone overdoses on Oxy it is NOT the Dr.'s fault.

Yes, our body becomes used to it like any other med. I fought for yrs. Concerned.

Then watched program on learn channel 4 day long. How chronic pain destroys, brain cells, rewires our brain for pain, never knowing how to get out of it. ALl on MrI etc.

Almost every med you are on long term you really need to wean yourself. Right to flour,sugar,coffee, most meds. you have taken for any length of time.

I was so crippled with pain, still never out of pain. If you were diabetic would you take your insulin? Is your body relying on it?

Of course, Yrs. back people grew their own, used heroin, known to be most affective easiest on system. Not nearly the damage tylenol has been found to do. Users ruined it so became this horrid word.

The oldest man found in mountains,Europe,frozen, Way back, he showed at 45 arthritis, they new he was on opiods. Also having accuncture, done with nails. They knew since marks were on meridians.

Way older than what the Eastern countries take the credit for

He was so intact, they even knew he was a meat eater from stomach contents.

So, pre pharmacies to make people look like addicts, people just got their own when in pain, or grew it.

Take care yourself. Pain is disabling wearing on entire bod. This is from a anti pill person of any kind.......

Do what you have to do to survive, worry about tommorrow when or if we have cure....Just IMHO, & med backgroung..

Here's the pocket version of how to determine if you are using a substance addictively.

One....are you using your pain meds only to the point of pain relief? not taking more to feel the buzz that comes along with the pain relief?

Vicodin is particularly noted for this. People mistakenly keep uping the dose, associating the euphoria-like feeling it provides with pain relief. One can get to the point of not feeling the euphoria or wonkiness (this is a technical term)....but still find that they have adequate pain relief if they ask themselves about it.

If there genuinely isn't pain relief, despite the lack of wonkiness (again, a technical term), then the dose or choice of medication needs to be reassessed with your physician or a pain management specialist. Sometimes one drug works for one person and not another, or a drug that did the job last month isn't cutting it this month...See the pain doc.

Two...Are you taking your pain medication so that you won't have to feel emotions? This is the real danger sign...
Pain medications are for physical pain in our situation...Pain medications are not how we should medicate our emotions, to escape how we are feeling emotionally. This is the fast track to addiction.

Further down the path of addiction, we ask our clients...Are you continuing to use this substance despite adverse consequences? An obvious example of this is getting a DUI and being unwilling to entertain the fact that you drink irresponsibly and perhaps addictively. A less obvious example is the alienation of those around you...have your relationships with others changed as a result of your using a substance?

Pain management has been through the ringer for the last few decades..withholding heavy duty pain meds from cancer patients to avoid addiction..that's ridiculous...Who cares if they become "addicted" or "dependent"? Agony is not preferable and the dependence on the medication can be dealt with later if a miraculous recovery occurs. Addiction and dependence are not the same.

Chronic pain is a bit different and needs a different approach...Lyme patients often live with pain daily, sometimes agonizing pain. So how do we treat it?

We use massage, chiropractic, accupuncture, arnica gel, tylenol, ibuprophen, hot tubs, ice packs, etc...then perhaps we move on to narcotics.

Here is where the education about addiction vs. dependence must occur.

Addiction in its most simple terms is continuing to use a substance despite adverse consequences. Or, using substances over and over again expecting different results..The vast majority of addicts are medicating emotional pain. Some are pure addicts, using because they must..but there are extremely few of these. Most addicts use because they don't like who they are or have become and it's a self perpetuating downward spiral. Clearly their emotional problems cannot be addressed when they are using addictively..

Dependence is part of addiction...This is the body's becoming dependent on that substance being in the blood stream. If it is not present, the patient goes through withdrawl symptoms.

Now, those of us in chronic pain most likely will become physiologically dependent on our pain medication to one degree or another. The only way to avoid it is to not take addictive substances at all or only sparingly.

Here is where our quality of life comes into play. Why am I taking pain meds? The answer to this question is the key to our knowing if we are taking our meds addictively or appropriately. If it's to relieve pain so that we can get on with out lives, to be able to function in our world as productively as we can, then addiction is not the concern.

Are we taking meds to zonk out (another technical term) and not be a part of our world, to not feel it, or are we taking the meds so that we can function with some modicum of quality.

If the answer is, I don't want to feel depressed, glum, lost, etc....then the medication is medicating feelings...We need to medicate our physical pain...our emotional pain needs to be addressed in other ways....friends, therapists, ministers, perhaps antidepressants, etc.....

I hope that I have made it clear that dependence and addiction are not the same thing. If we become physiologically dependent on narcotics, then so be it until we no longer need them for pain.

When the glorious pain free days arrive, then we can be withdrawn slowly and relativly easily....not cold turkey like the heroin addicts you see in the movies who lie there sweating buckets, throwing up and screaming in agony. It's not like that.

For our purposes the dose is slowly tapered off and the final withdrawl is usually only a few days. at most, of minor anxiety that can also be medicated in the short term with anti anxiety agents until it passes.

I'm not looking forward to having to go through even minor withdrawl, but it sure beats having to live in pain, making decisions based on my chronic pain state, being snappy with my children and honey, being relegated to the sofa, having disturbed sleep due to pain, etc...you guys know the drill.

We just have to keep asking ourselves WHY am I taking the pill or putting on this patch. If we can honestly answer that it's just for pain, then we are on the right track...

Lastly, we can involve our loved ones that we trust with giving us feedback on our behaviors. I usually tell my honey when I take my vicodin...that way there is someone else who knows how much and when I'm taking it. If I suddenly find myself not wanting to tell him, to take more without his knowing, that's a big red flag...

First, always get your pain medication from the same doctor...the exception would be if you have a root canal or a broken ankle and the doctor gives you a small prescription for pain.

Second, use the same pharmacy...lots of scrips from different doctors filled at differing pharmacies is a hallmark of an abuser.

If your pharmacist becomes medelsome rather than supportive, then change to a new pharmacy after referring the medelling pharmacist to your doctor for education.

You would be suprised at how many customers at the local pharmacy are picking up as much and much more narcotic medication than you are right now. Chronic pain is a big issue in our world today...we're just one little corner of it.

Lastly, if you run into trouble, have your doctor refer you to a pain management specialist. I mean a practicing medical doctor for pain management, not a psychiatrist.

There are two kinds of "Pain management" doctors....the medical, let's get down to helping you manage your genuine pain kind....and the psychiatric, let me find out why you really want these drugs cuz your pain couldn't be real kind.

Hospitals now have teams that manage all pain medications in house. Takes the risk and under medicating of pain out of the attending doctor's hands. In most cases they are darn good at finding how to manage and relieve your pain as long as you are in house.

After release, patients with ongoing, genuine pain are often referred to the medical, your pain is real, kind of pain specialist.

Most LLMDs are pretty well versed in the fact that our pain is of the genuine variety. Some may not prescribe narcotics to remain below the radar of the OPMC type groups...and will refer you to someone who does pain management full time.

When I first took one ,one pill would knock me out for most of the day but then a few hours later I would have the rest of the day were I wasent all stiffend up like frankenstien.

As time went on I needed more and more pills so my body would feel the same effects,I would automaticaly wake at night not being able to fall back asleep unless my body had more pills.At the end I was taking 14 pills a day and the small window of improvment was only about a half hour.I was desparate for it to end and new I must do somthing,I surgicly had a baclopen pump inserted into adoman and spine,thats where the meds goes directly into your spine,forgoing the side effects.

So after the surgey I didnt need the zanaflex anymore and started to wean myself off,I got down to 3 pills a day but any lower and my body would start revolting,I'd throw up,couldent keep down food,start sweating profusly.I new at that point I just had to go cold turkey and just stop all pills.So I was literly in agony for a solid week wile the drug left my body,couldent eat ,sleep for whole week, extreme sweating, body treamers it must have been what it's like to come off herion,I cant imagine any worse.

But 4 years later Im happy to report Im drug free except for abx, and can now thankfully fall asleep on own and sleep through the night .
I have also since had the pump removed.

I'm steamed that your doctor let you get that far down the dependency trail before suggesting the pump..I'm so sorry.

Remember way back when in the 60's when they said that cocaine was not addictive? And chauvanistic doctors handed out valium to women like candy, "mother's little helper"?

[This message has been edited by breathwork (edited 18 July 2004).]

I believe we need to take what we need to use to relieve the pain whan we need it. You should not suffer with chronic pain.

I have a similar situation with sleep..using Ambien over two years.

I tried other things in the past, and nothing else worked. (tried malatonin and H-Tryptophan, ect.)

I did finally I think find something, and maybe I'm in a different place so I can transition..

But I am using a potent herbal formula on the sight I will link you called "Nerve"..I am on it and am fine with a quarter dose of the Ambien, and I think I may be able to go off.

My point is, I'm not sure what pain you have specifically, so I am likning you to one formula..but there is a list of others.

These formulas are very effective. Ive tried a few.

Just thought in case you were looking to explore supplemental options..
http://www.curezone.com/schulze/handbook/dtoil.asp

So, when I was 12, they still didn't know what I had, so my doctor at the time diagnosed me with a "viral syndrome" and gave me vicoden (hydrocodone) every time it flared. The vicoden eventually stopped working as well, and started making me motion sick and gave me headaches, so I started taking percocet (oxycodone) for my pain, just a few years ago. I did have a couple months at a time here and there where I didn't need any painkillers, so I wasn't on them nonstop at that time. Eventually the percocet also didn't seem to be working very well and my doctor put me on Oxycontin. Before the oxycontin I was taking sometimes 2 tablets of percocet, 3 times a day. I WAS able to take a lot less percocet once I started the oxycontin though.
This last fall I started taking a muscle relaxant as well, and often took ambien, and usually at the same time to actually get enough pain relief to sleep. I did wonder at times if maybe the gradual build-up meant I was getting REALLY addicted, but in the last six months (I've been getting treated for lyme/coinfections for 3 years) I've had some major improvements in energy, and some improvement in my pain level, and decided my painkillers were working too well cuz I was beginning to feel drugged and emotionally numb, which was totally unusual. So I quit the muscle relaxant altogether, the sleeping pills I haven't taken or felt like I needed to since about...march, I think... and in May I started weaning off of the oxycontin... which I'd been taking for a year (20 mg twice a day)....and now I haven't had any for two weeks. So basically I started on vicodin, and eventually was taking percocet, oxycontin, muscle relaxant, and a sleeping pill together. Now I'm only taking percocet again as needed, but it isn't nearly as much as it used to be (usually half a tablet once or twice a day).

So....basically....from what I've been through, I think that a lot of times, when your in enough pain, it's better for your body to take the painkillers, being in such severe pain all the time is a lot of stress on the body. So unless you have major reactions to them...it might be better to take them, at least sometimes. If your pain keeps you awake or is worse in the evenings, maybe take your painkiller at bedtime so you'll be getting a better nights rest and have more energy to deal with your pain during the day. I think other times it's good to try to stick it out too. But I wouldn't NOT take the painkillers for fear of getting addicted...I would think that if you take them only as much as you need, and when you need, you should be okay. However, even if your not addicted (psychologically dependent).....your body can become dependent. I had physical withdrawal symptoms when I started weaning off of my oxycontin....each time I lowered the dose...my pain got pretty severe if I sat still too long, and I had some shooting pains like maybe my nerves were a little edgy. But it was tolerable and I never felt at any time a "need" to start the drug again. So, from my experience, I think if you take the painkillers for pain relief only, then you shouldn't become psychologically addicted.

Again, I'm not a doctor, ...this is all just from my own experience. But...I hope it helps in some way.

Good luck!! My prayers are with you.

Lishka

OH...by the way, as far as other means of pain relief....acupuncture worked wonders for me when I tried it...it worked better than the percocet ever did, if I went frequently enough. Last fall I went through a ton of physical therapy (September - February) and that also worked wonders, and after the PT helped me get strong enough to exercise....exercise also helps my pain (sometimes). So...there ya go. If you try PT, make sure your therapist LISTENS and doesn't have the "no pain no gain" mentality, even if all they can do with you is massage for the first while...I started with massage and stretching, and then moved into doing small exercises and then moved that up gradually. So I wouldn't overdo it at any time.

[This message has been edited by Amareo (edited 18 July 2004).]

HEY!
I am sorry to read that you are still in pain.

About addiction..... I think I know what you mean and have dealt with it. I have had withdrawal symptoms from several of the medications, but if I pulled through - I know you will too!!!!

Keep up the good work with your lyme treatment and please send me your phone number once more. I'd love to give you a call - I'll be in South Padre Island, Texas all next week. Cheaper to call in-state!

My e-mail is still: [email protected]

I would love to catch up!

Thank you! That's a lot of wonderful thinking material....I'm going to print it out...

I know I'm not physically addicted...but I do find myself looking at the clock everyday, I have a stupid rule...no pain meds before 11 AM....I don't know why, I just do....

I grew up in a house where Xanax was given to me before piano recitals, and to this day, my mother would rather I take one than have a glass of red wine...

This has made me more aware of drug abuse, prarticularly the kind I grew up with...very subtle, upper class, not known by anyone...yada yada yada....

To this day, my parents both take Xanax and Ambein every night before bed, and they are the ones who worry every time I put a pill in my mouth!

I asked my doc for PT, and he said I'm not ready. As for acupuncture, massage, etc...trust me, I was a spoiled kid and I know how wonderful massages are! We just aren't in a positiion, timewise, or financially, to do these things....

Long story short: 5 bucks for a bottle of pain meds, versus time and money other things.

Writing this, I realize how wrong it sounds, but my reality is not everyones....and vice versa. I think if I didn't have small children, I would be more open to alternative treatments....I have tried many in the past, and still shop at Whole Foods =)....

Well, it's 10:52, and my wrists are killing me....lifting a 20+ lb. hypotonic baby doesn't help in this case!!! LOL God is so funny sometimes....

I do have Flexeril, but can't take it...it knocks me out....my children would be stuffing rattles in my mouth and dancing on my stomach if I took one! haha

KJ

Withdrawl from narcotics while using it as an addict can be so much rougher than for people using it for pain. They are withdrawn while they are on their highest dose...A genuine addict won't taper off to near nothing over a period of time to avoid heavy duty withdrawl, then step into a treatment program. It's not in the nature of addiction...

BUT, when withdrawing from narcotics for chronic pain use, the program is markedly different and the suffering is greatly reduced...

At the very least, the device works like a TENS unit and galvanic muscle stimulator to strengthen the lower leg. Many people feel it reduces their pain levels gradually but perceptibly. There is a video that explains how the Rebuilder works.

I just ordered one. Since I have both PN in my feet and also a torn muscle on the back of my calf, I figure it would help for two reasons. I had already rented a TENS unit for $50 a week to strenghten my upper leg when I broke it (thanks to PN). Now I'll own the machine and be able to use it forever. Costs $449. Pricey but could be worth it. There is a 90 day money back guarantee. They will also work on a payment plan with you, if $449 is too much to pay all at once.

Your doctor said you aren't ready for pt. There are different types of pt. You may not be ready for strengthening, but you may benefit from pt that is aimed at relaxing the muscles. I had months of hand on pt work, basically myofascial release, that I think was an integral part of my being able to strengthen my muscles.

I also take Flexeril. I know you say it knocks you out, and Breathwork says it's addictive, but it was my lifesaver. I started taking only 5mg...half a pill...and slowly moved up to 30mg over more than a month. I take it at night. Waking up is still hard, but then I'm fine once I'm out of bed.

I was becoming a completely different person before I had my pain under control. I probably would have ended up with depression because my life became so limited.

Thank you! That's a lot of wonderful thinking material....I'm going to print it out...

I agree and have bookmarked this post, you should too.

I know I'm not physically addicted...but I do find myself looking at the clock everyday, I have a stupid rule...no pain meds before 11 AM....I don't know why, I just do....

Might I suggest what I do. I find if I take two of my Hydrocodone before I even get out of bed, I do not have to take any more until the next morning. This solution came after several years poppin these pills and this works better by my not having to take them all day. Just one good enough dose of the two pills and I am good to go.

When I tried to go longer in the morning, like you are doing, I only wound up having to take more. You may want to try the double dose in the morning before you get out of bed or very soon afterward and see if this will work for you too. Watching the clock on this is not a very good thing, as I see it.

I, too, have suffered much pain, was even all the way up to 100mg Durgesic patches for several months. That's a lot of pain relief. I was also on the Hydrocodone at the same time.

And, as with any pain relief taken over a long period of time, I had to wean off. Don't see a problem with that.

This has made me more aware of drug abuse, prarticularly the kind I grew up with...very subtle, upper class, not known by anyone...yada yada yada....

To this day, my parents both take Xanax and Ambein every night before bed, and they are the ones who worry every time I put a pill in my mouth!

I wouldn't give that a second thought. You are you and using this for a good reason and they, well, that's their problem, and not yours, as I see it. What your parents did or are still doing has nothing to do with your dependency and/or your need to be taking this drug.

When I take Hydrocodone or even when on the Duragesic patch (which btw, is strong, very strong and causes dependency, for sure if taken long enough and you must be weaned off, it is BECAUSE I am in pain and the meds go to that pain and relieves it for me.

Folks who take it to feel high, can take sometimes less than we do, but, if they are in pain, as it goes to the pain first, they will need more than we take for just the pain. I have never felt "high" from my pain meds, so I know it is going for the pain and not my "feel good" center of my brain that would make me feel high.

The above is just my opinion, I am not a doctor.