Does this means by age 80, most of us have an "autoimmune" disease?

How can one have Lupus...an "autoimmune" disease... and NOT have elevated ANA? This can be the case.

Are we in a "self destruct" mode by age 80?

OR...is the body making a last ditch effort to rid the body of damaged, unhealthy cells?

If the ANA is too high, if too many cells of one type are destroyed = danger. Entire organs can stop working.

(Cells make up tissue. Tissue makes up organs.)

But...ANA levels can go down...the body can stop destroying cells. The "self destruct" mode can be halted. Or...when enough damaged, unhealthy cells are eliminated, no further need for these antibodies...and they decrease?

I don't know about agewise when our ana is supposed to be elevated but...I noticed on my last couple of blood tests (comprehensive) I have had an elevation of my ana...I'm only 54...and I did;nt notice the elevation prior to all this abx and lyme disease...
So what are you saying??? Am I slowly dieing because I have so many damaged cells in the past six years or so that I should be 80?
This ANA test may have some bearing on the constant destruction of cells from infection and or the treatments themselves may be destroying even more when we kill the cheetes that are imbedded in the cells.

So tell me more or anyone else out there with elevated ANA results since haveing lyme disease...like I said I had'nt noticed an elevation on previous tests...just recently.
I've been on and off some type of antibiotic since March of 98.
I've seen elevations of white blood count but that should be normal for anyone fighting an infection in the body. I believe an elevation of red blood cells is a problem associated with lyme disease or one of a possible co-infection......the zman

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/009342.html

Many of Lyme Disease patients have an elevated ANA, thus, so many being diagnosed (dx) with other auto immune disease rather than the one that they really have.

Keep reading and learning for you'll soon understand why getting to the "proper" doctor, a Lyme Literate Medical Doctor, an LLMD, has to be of the upmost improtance for you.

Good luck and sorry Marnie about my post being off subject of some sort.

It can take years to diagnose an autoimmune illness. Relevant labs and tests include the HLA-DR markers, rheumatoid factor, anti-double-stranded DNA antibodies, C3 and C4 complements, skin biopsies and several others. For lupus, if you have 4 out of a list of 11 criteria (including sun sensitivity, malar rash, arthritis, urine protein, neurologic disorder, abnormal labs including ANA, pleural inflammation) you are diagnosed.

In our family, two of us meet the criteria for lupus, and also have CDC positive Western Blots for Lyme. We also have HLA-DR 4, have had positive anti-DNA (supposedly 10% accurate sign of lupus), low complements and positive skin biopsies.

The truth is, noone really knows if Lyme triggers a lupus-like condition in some people that persists after the infection is taken care of, or if the autoimmune illness goes away once the bacteria are treated with antibiotics. To make matters worse, ANA tests and some Lyme tests are cross-reactive.

Our experience has been that antibiotics over the long-term seem to improve ANA's and other labs. However, those of us with evidence of an autoimmune reaction to the Lyme bacteria seem to have what they call "refractory" disease, meaning that many of our symptoms don't seem to get that much better on antibiotics, even after a few years.

It is important to note that the presence of autoimmune activity with a Lyme infection does NOT mean that antibiotics aren't needed, as some doctors have concluded.

Some medications used for lupus, such as steroids, will harm a person with Lyme. We have found rheumatologists do not use steroids much, but instead use Plaquenil, which is also useful in Lyme treatment. For us, there has been no conflict in treatment and the rheumatologoical labs have been a good way to assess some progress in Lyme treatment.

One other thing: "autoimmune" simply means the body is somehow attacking its own cells. This could happen because the immune system is confused somehow, and mistakes its own cells for the foreign invader, or because the immune system is overrevved in trying to attack an invader, and overdoes it. If you have any evidence that this is happening for you, you want to avoid therapies that stimulate your immune response, including echinacea and other herbs that strengthen the immune system.

Here's some recent research (also research Dr. Bruce Ames):

Mice Study May Show How Human Cells Age
By WILLIAM McCALL, AP

(May 26) -- Scientists in Sweden say aging begins in a fundamental way - in the accumulation of tiny changes to a mysterious genetic component in cells called mitochondrial DNA.

Researchers describe the study as the first experimental evidence of this theory - at least in laboratory mice. They believe the finding could explain how humans age and how the body's systems begin to misfire, although more tests must bear them out. The mouse results appear in the current issue of the journal Nature.

"It seems to be a universal phenomenon in mammals that you have this damage to mitochondrial DNA as you get older," said the study's senior author, Nils-Goran Larsson at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm.

"But I and many others thought this was just a secondary phenomenon," Larsson said. "I think the importance of our paper is that we actually show these mutations can indeed cause several changes associated with aging."
Other scientists say the Swedish experiments clearly show that a high rate of mutation in mitochondrial DNA has an effect on aging.

"But that does not mean all aging is caused by mutations in mitochondrial DNA," said David Finkelstein of the National Institute on Aging, part of the National Institutes of Health.

In the experiments, the Swedish team used mice bred with a defective version of an *enzyme* responsible for maintaining mitochondrial DNA.

Mitochondria are tiny biochemical power plants in cells that convert food into energy. Mitochondria contain strands of their own DNA that are separate from the cell nucleus where the body's genes reside.

The deterioration in the experimental mice started at 25 weeks - young adulthood in normal mice. They prematurely experienced a range of familiar age-related complaints, including baldness, osteoporosis, anemia, curvature of the spine and reduced fertility.

The lifespan of the experimental mice was markedly reduced, with the median age of death at 48 weeks. The oldest of the experimental mice died before 61 weeks.
In normal mice, early aging signs appear at about 40 weeks. Emaciation and other signs of old age accumulate by 1.5 years, and lab mice typically live a little over 2 years.
In an accompanying commentary in Nature, George Martin and Lawrence Loeb of the University of Washington said the results are also consistent with the theory that so-called "free radicals" play a role in aging.

Free radicals typically are oxygen molecules that lack an electron, often setting up a corrosive chain reaction that can damage other cells.
Regardless of how aging begins, researchers said the steps to extend a healthy, youthful life are familiar and simple.

"Watch what you eat, exercise, don't smoke, keep your mind active," Finkelstein said, "and you're more likely to live longer."

05/26/04

Mg controls OVER 350 enzymes.

What can repair this mDNA? Perhaps:

Protein Kinase it appears is DNA dependent...and

. The physical integrity of the DNA helix appears to be dependent on Mg2+

a. Mg2+ ion decreases the number DNA replication errors

b. Mg2+ ion stimulates DNA repair

c. Most of the known enzymes involved in repairing DNA lesions are dependent on Mg2+ at varying degrees
http://www.mdschoice.com/elements/elements/major_minerals/magnesium.htm

Re: free radicals:

``Visual defects are common in surviving preterm infants. Increased levels of harmful neurochemical mediators that have been reported in these conditions include ***oxygen free radicals, excitatory amino acids, tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-a) and in thromboxane A2 (TXA2) which are aggravated in magnesium deficiency and may be ameliorated by magnesium.''
http://www.barttersite.com/mgpreemies.htm

It is known that ketones can shut down an enzyme called phosphofructokinase (6) . This enzyme plays a critical role in glycolysis, a process that may be the only source of energy for cancer cells.

Without sufficient energy, cells cannot produce sufficient ATP. This creates a build-up of free radicals that can lead to apoptosis. Normal cells are not necessarily affected in the same manner because they derive most of their daily energy needs from the Krebs cycle (7) .
http://www.apjohncancerinstitute.org/caatdoctorprotocol1.htm

When I went to verify the above website, it was not available. However, the following 2 websites provide similar information.
www.apjohncancerinstitute.org/newsletter-old2.htm
http://www.lowcarbluxury.com/newsletter/lclnewsvol03-no04-pg2.html

http://www.barttersite.com/mgpreemies.htm

I respectfully disagree with this statement:
"the immune system is confused somehow, and mistakes its own cells for the foreign invader, or because the immune system is overrevved in trying to attack an invader, and overdoes it."

I believe the body is chosing a particular pathway to the degree necessary to try to prolong the person's life.

When we alter that pathway, instead of boosting/supporting our own immune system...the troubles compound.

Because my sister has elevated TNF alpha and because she was on countless abx. for so long ("Couldn't possibly still be infected") ...her doctor has diagnosed her as having an "autoimmune disease".

And he's a "reputable" doctor in a major city...

This also may be of interest:

Metals and autoimmunity

"This review can be summed up in a few crucial points. The data indicate that metals have the potential to induce or promote the development of autoimmunity in man. Chronic metal-induced inflammation may dysregulate the HPA-axis and contribute to fatigue and other non-specific symptoms characterizing autoimmune diseases."
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/August2001/RoleMetalsAutoimmunLinkNeuro.htm

If you throw one metal (mineral) off...it does impact the others...first the major ones...Ca, Na, K...then the trace minerals...and finally the bad metals.

"Calcium and Magnesium Deficiency
It is proposed that chronic environment deficiencies of calcium and magnesium may result in increased intestinal absorption of toxic metals and lead to the mobilization of calcium and metals from the bone and the deposition of these elements in nervous tissue. This hypothesis, called metal-induced calcifying degeneration of central nervous system (CNS), has been supported by experimental studies using several animal species (Van den Bergh et al. 1977).

Low calcium/magnesium intake with excess amounts of aluminum and manganese are associated with the incidence of ALS in the Western Pacific. The authors conclude that the high incidence of ALS in the Western Pacific may be due to calcium/magnesium metabolism dysfunction, resulting in excess deposition of aluminum (Yasui et al. 1991a; Yasui et al. 1991b).
http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-008a.shtml

Many of the antibiotics deplete nutrients. This compounds the problem. Which ones, how often, how much to restore?

They destroy the "friendly bacteria" in our GI leading to yeast infections, leaky gut, etc.

They alter our immune response.

We MAKE our own antibodies (antibiotics)- healthy ones IF we have the proper nutrients to do so.

Why not SUPPORT our own system by providing the nutrients it needs? The one that is lacking the most?

"The antibiotic tetracyclines all are selectively accumulated by bacteria, which have high concentrations of magnesium ion in the inside of their cell membranes. Apparently the tetracycline-magnesium ion chelates that are formed are retained by the bacteria (have difficulty exiting through the cell membrane because of their poor lipid solubility)."
www.oupharmacy.com/pharmsciadmin/ nshankar/coursenotes1/Supplementary%20notes%20-2.pdf

Doxycycline depletes:

Vit B1, Vit B2, Vit B3, Vit B6, Vit B12, Vit K, Iron, Magnesium, Biotin, Calcium, Inositol, Bifido bifidum (bifidus), lactobacillus acidophilus.
http://medicinegarden.com/Library/pharmadrugsdepletions.html

But...WE need enough Mg to make healthy antibodies, proteins, to control over 350 enzymes, to make ATP!, etc.

The 31% drop in the early onset of Lyme disease as discovered by the Romanians (cancer hospital) is astounding.

Restore the balance to heal. The Romanians COMBINED abx. with very large doses of Mg and maintained a normal Mg level until the infection was gone.

We should be demanding:

1. Accurate Mg testing

2. Availability of IV Mg doses - covered by insurance.

3. A test study verifying the above does indeed cure...as it did in Romania.