I recently saw a presentation by an LLMD (a Dr.S.H.) who reported that free mobile Bb may be killed off by raising the temperature to 40C for 3hours (in vitro.)

The cyst form of Bb, however, is not affected by an increase in the temperature.

Anyway, so if there is a way to raise our body temperature to 40C (104F), at least we should be able to get to those Bb's that are in their mobile state; including those in the brain. No?

So it seems "productive" if we could raise our body temperature in a prolonged fashion.

And my wild and totally irresponsible idea for accomplishing this is to expose myself to a "safe" virus.

Wouldn't this cause the immune system to elevate the temperature over a prolonged time?

Couldn't a virus be tuned to be safe while still triggering the imune system to elevate the temperature to ~104F?

Do such "safe" viruses exist?

Will any doctor actually do this sort of thing, or this totally unheard of?

maybe it worked for some in the short run but the chance was there of winding up with TWO potentially incurable diseases.

ICHT worked for some but YIKES what a hot topic...maybe shouldn't even bring it up....

Then I just had a nasty stomach flu and didn't take steps to reduce my fever when it spiked near 104 for a few hours(till I got scared). my reasoning was that I'd kill the leftover Bb.

Somebody else wanted to take your blood out, heat it, and return it but that wouldn't do a thing for the bugs in the tissues.

I think my knees are better since that fever, but i'm so close to well it's nothing definitive.

Maybe I'm still contagious...would you like me to send you any bodily fluids??

Charlie

I'll be one happy chick-a-dee when these critters are banned from my body!

*edited to add my chick!

So, even if you exposed yourself and got sick, you may not get the desired effect.

Is it because it's against medical practice and oath to deliberately making people sick?

Or is it because it just doesn't work?

This gotta be the first time in my life I'm hoping for a bad case of the flu...

Btw, nakaa, I sat in a 108F hot tub the other day for 15min. My temp went from 97.4F to 101.5F. But after 15min I just couldn't take it anymore.

I agree with you. So that's why the issue of "tuning" the virus is important so it can be optimized to the individual.

But in order for "tuning" to make any sense, some doctors need to put their heads together and think this out.

I can imagine that the concept of a "safe" virus is well known.

More specifically, using a virus whose anti-virus is well known and which can be given in cases where extreme fevers or other adverse effects develop.

quote:

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Originally posted by cmichaelo:

Btw, nakaa, I sat in a 108F hot tub the other day for 15min. My temp went from 97.4F to 101.5F. But after 15min I just couldn't take it anymore.

Michael

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Which adds the question of duration. I can typically stay in a steam room for a half hour at 113�F, but even if I *could* get an elevated body temp, how long would I have to stay in there for it to take effect?

The symptoms of heatstroke include:

Top marathon runners can have temperatures between 103-104F at the end of the race.

Do we know of any marathon runners that have chronic Lyme? If not, then there may be a link.

I will try taking my temperature before and after next time I run 3 miles. I do a 6 1/2 min/mile so it's relatively intense.

The most common way was to either:

inject the person with sweet-milk

or

expose them to malaria then feed them arsenic.

She had been treated two years as I said for Lyme and Bart, and symptom free by then, except the recurrance of a stutter that is LD related..

When the stutter returned..I got a strong feeling I wanted to try her off abx, with immune supportive minerals. Doc J said OK.

Within a week she spiked a fever to 104 for several hours. Was not a typical flu progression.
(I don't believe it was a virus because none of us caught it, and I was with her all night)..and..

She has remained off abx for two months and no symptoms have returned..and since coming out of that fever ... NO STUTTERING.

I am not saying I think anyone should consider going with this idea, especially with high infectioin load or undiagnosed co-infections..

Just saying I also find it interesting because of what happened with my daughter.

If I could draw bloods on her (won't..too traumatic) I bet her WBC were elevated, and ither signs in the subsets would indicate it was a huge immune response to LD. My guess.

Mo

I think there is something to the heat idea but it's not the 'end all' by any means. I think sweating is good for the body in general because it's cleansing, but others will argue that the body needs to be detoxed of metals and other things before heating it up.

I had to chuckle about the reference to marathon runners and just exercise in general - I consider myself a successful marathoner if I can get up a flight of stairs without puffing! I simply cannot exercise in the way I used to BL (before lyme)- it makes me ill.

I think there is something to the idea that heat cooks keets, but one has to approach 'heating' the body up with caution.

This is what my llmd recommends, exercising, to the extent possible,except if you are already herxing, the idea is to get more oxygen into body tissue, something the keets don't like and then soak in 105 degrees for 10 minutes after you start sweating. You won't be in the tub long. Be sure to drink lots of water before and after the soak. Many days I just soak, which is fine too. Many people use a sauna.

He says it is the frequncy that really causes trouble with the keets. I soak once a day, but twice is good.

Keets like it cool, so dressing warmly is a help too.

The principle is the same as your body naturally having a fever to kill bacteria.

Mel

Im telling you this worked wonders untill those bastards put PVC mats in the sauna.

Now i have chronic vertigo, postnasal drip,and chemical sensitivities.

But it did work excellent, id sit there untill i was really dizzy.

Then id shower off.

If anyone hasent tried this,, please do and start s-l-o-w work your way up.

I can tell you right now, even though each and every single one of my bones hurt, my head was screaming at me and I was puking like the exorcist, my brain was SO clear it was amazing.

I have only seen results like that when I use my sauna, which I need to hook up again, and I mean NORMAL days after using it. It kicks my butt for one to two days, but then I get a week of absolute normalness.

And i only paid 70.00 bucks for the thing. It kicks azz

Of course it has to be done safely.

The temp only kills mobile Bb though. Not the cyst form.

But the cyst form may be busted in various ways with suitable abx.

So assuming the cyst buster works, and that we take a hot bath 30min every day (or a 60min sauna), is that a cure for Bb?

I mean, noone seems to even imply that temperature DOES NOT kill Bb.

Furthermore, this is not even a very expensive treatment (except maybe for the cyst abx.)

A membership to a fitness club gives you automatic access to hot tub and sauna (in most cases.)

Btw, does anyone know what temperature does to the coinfections?

Isn't that was the treatment in Italy, ICHT was all about? And, we know what happened with that...if you do not, the search key is up under Post New Topic, keyword, ICHT and you'll get plenty to read about it.

RADICAL...you bet!!! Good, don't think so. If it were that simple, we'd all jumped on that band wagon a long time ago.

Prior to penicillin, this is how syphills was treated. In case anyone is still unaware of this, both syphillis and LD are caused by a spirochete. It was believed that raising your core body temperature would kill those beasts.

Spirochetes do not like heat.

I would be V-E-R-Y careful with exposing myself to too much heat in the form of a sauna or hot tub. You don't need heatstroke on top of having Lyme Disease.

So because ICHT didn't work and because it killed people and because it's controversial, then raising body temperature doesn't work.

Is that what you're saying?

Then why does our immune system raise body temperature as one of the main means to fight bugs?

If you read the replies in this thread, there are five testimonies that this seems to "work" to some extent. And noone states that "it doesn't work".

Rather people feel great after a long stay in the sauna. They herx. Doesn't mean it's a cure obviously.

I think a main reason why it's not cure, is that the cysts are unaffected by the high temperature.

So I would think that in a "temperature" treatment program, cyst busters need to be taken in parallel.

Is anyone doing this? I'll talk to my doctor about it.

As we all know by now, no single treatment is the cure for chronic Lyme. It's too complex for that.

So that's why we take supplements with the abx, submit ourselves to salt, oxygen, and rife machines, eat mushrooms and various chinese remedies.

Why not raise our body temperature as well since our immune system is not able to do it in the case of Lyme.

Now if we induce heat as therapy we are treading a very thin line physicaly.

If the bodies own regulatory system screws up when it does it itself.

What are the chances of us doing it on purpose inducing it by self inflicted means,chances are we are literaly playing with fire.

Ontop of the darn abilities of the disease itself.

First let me say that I'm not trying to convince anyone on this board to do this. I'm trying to learn about it and learn from your experiences.

Besides, I'm a bit of an experimentalist.

By now I understand that raising body temperature can be dangerous. But only, I think, if done in a reckless fashion.

Many people already raise their body temperature, unintendedly though. They do it for the purpose of comfort and to become healthier.

You know, people who exercise every day for hours.

People who sit in a sauna every day for 30min.

People who sit in the hot tub every day for 15min.

I see these people at the club where I work out.

So far noone has had heart problem, as far as I know.

Yes, raising body temperature beyond a certain point is dangerous.

Seems one should keep it below 103-104F and not do it for a prolonged time and drink lots of fluids while doing it.

Also seems that people like us which are more likely to have heart problems should make sure that there are other people around when/if we do use sauna or hot tub.

I can imagine that a doctor won't prescribe a "temperature" treatment for the very reasons you pointed out.

Btw, when I go in my hot tub, I also bring a thermometer to measure my body temp. And I bring a signaling device to get my wifes attention, just in case.

I rigged up one of these saunas in my house before I got so dizzy herxing I used it regularly. It helps to sweat out toxins, metals, etc, don't about keets.

My doc told me that one of his lyme patients brought towel in that was black, the man's sweat was black.

I went home and looked at the carpet under my stool in the sauna, guess what black spots everywhere.

We do ozone steam therapy and it heats up core body temp AND gets oxygen deep inside your body. Both things work to off the keets.

You can stay in it longer than a hot tub or hot bath or a sauna, plus you are introducing oxygen into your body.

My 15 year old is back on her feet and off all abx after a horrible two years of being sick; I'm also doing great, working two careers. It's pretty amazing stuff!

orion

I, personally, am an avid fan of steam & jacuzzi therapy. I also prefer taking regular showers that are so hot, my skin turns pink. I've always been that way.

I think it *is* important to make people aware of the possible dangers involved w/heat therapy (for lack of a better term), but for someone like myself? Steaming those buggers would be an added benefit to what is already a heavenly and semi-routine experience. Knowing the possible benefit would get me into the tub a few extra times a week. Now for someone like my husband? He can't sit 10 minutes comfortably in either a steam room or sauna. It's VERY important to listen to your body, and from my experience most do use common sense when it comes to sauna/jacuzzi/steam.

~Barb~ who'll be taking a www.positivepause.com herself this evening. I have 2 under 7, my dh is out of town & it's been a DICKENS of a day. LOL

Before the sauna, I had been bathing in the jacuzzi daily as hot as I could stand, with no great results.

quote:

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Originally posted by lymeyinok:
Try Far Infrared Sauna.

---

Now ya see, this is what I meant about listening to your body.

As much as I adore steam rooms & jacuzzis, I can't tolerate saunas worth one iota. I can't walk in one without feeling like passing out. My body is *not* a fan & I heed her warnings well! LOL

I do HOT bathes at least once a day...when I stop...I pay a price.

Trout

quote:

---

Originally posted by cmichaelo:
Rosie,

So because ICHT didn't work and because it killed people and because it's controversial, then raising body temperature doesn't work.

Is that what you're saying?

Then why does our immune system raise body temperature as one of the main means to fight bugs?

If you read the replies in this thread, there are five testimonies that this seems to "work" to some extent. And noone states that "it doesn't work".

Rather people feel great after a long stay in the sauna. They herx. Doesn't mean it's a cure obviously.

I think a main reason why it's not cure, is that the cysts are unaffected by the high temperature.

So I would think that in a "temperature" treatment program, cyst busters need to be taken in parallel.

Is anyone doing this? I'll talk to my doctor about it.

As we all know by now, no single treatment is the cure for chronic Lyme. It's too complex for that.

So that's why we take supplements with the abx, submit ourselves to salt, oxygen, and rife machines, eat mushrooms and various chinese remedies.

Why not raise our body temperature as well since our immune system is not able to do it in the case of Lyme.

Michael

---

Because, I believe that this is very dangerous and should be carefully monitored by a physician. To be less prudent than that would be careless, to say the least.

I'm not trying to start something, we just have a differing opinion on this. BTW, I have an Ultimate B3 rife machine, something altogether different bird.

Rosemary

Before going on, I do NOT recommend anyone doing this. I can imagine this could be dangerous to some people.

Anyway, I first took a regular 10min shower. At the end I stuck my head under the hot shower for about 2min, after which time I started feeling weird - kind of like foggyheaded.

This feeling of foggyheaded went away immediately after pulling my head out of the shower.

A short while after getting out of the shower, maybe 15min or so, I started feeling nautious and feelt pain in my wrists and knees. This lasted for hours.

I suppose this must have been some kind of herx reaction to the rapid heat increase of my head.

Later in the morning I started feeling full of energy, or at least more so than usual. This of course, could be unrelated to the shower, since this is not the first time this happens.

But I sure will try this again to see if a pattern develops.

I also took my temperature before and after the 12min shower trip, and it went from about 95.5 to 97.5.

I'm definately going to try the steam and sauna asap. And it's free at the club!!!

That is great advice...as always. I agree with everything you said.

And I should not be proclaiming this temperature treatment as a "cure". And I thought I hadn't done so either.

Again, I'm not a doctor. I know of no cures. Temperature treatment is not a cure; just something I'm experimenting with.

Yes, I do think it could be an ingredient in a cure for me. But alone I don't see heat treatment doing enough.

Also, I don't know what heat does to all the coinfections. But I'm just talking Lyme here.

Thanks all for your feedback. Good luck with your saunas, hot tubs, ozone steam, triathlons, etc.

For sure, I'll be running and sauna'ing more.

as far as the heat therapy in general that debate will continue, mostly due to lack of clinical research.

i have a friend who did some tile work at a client's house whose son has long standing lyme. he went to switzerland for the icht therapy before that got closed down a couple of months ago.

at first report it seemed to have helped him, he was walking again, but in time the benevolent effects dissapated and he started having horrible neuropathy.

i haven't heard anything about him in a few months though. it certainly, unfortunately, wasn't a cure-all.

i did find the following in vitro hypothesis in entrez pub med:

Scand J Infect Dis. 1996;28(2):155-7.

Antibiotics and increased temperature against Borrelia burgdorferi in vitro.

Reisinger E, Wendelin I, Gasser R, Halwachs G, Wilders-Truschnig M, Krejs G.

Department of Medicine, Karl Franzens University, Graz, Austria.

In 1917, spirochaetal neurosyphilis was treated successfully with malariotherapy in combination with salvarsan or bismuth.

Malariotherapy for spirochaetal Lyme disease has been discussed, but the mechanism of an antispirochaetal effect remains unclear. We cultured Borrelia burgdorferi at different temperatures, alone and in combination with antibiotics.

Our data demonstrate that growth of the strains PKo and ATCC 35210 (B31) was impaired at temperatures of 37 degrees C and inhibited at 39 degrees C and 40 degrees C, respectively. Strain ATCC 35211, however, grew well up to 39 degrees C but did not multiply at 40 degrees C. A bactericidal effect was seen at 41 degrees C for the strains B31 and PKo and at 42 degrees C for all strains.

The susceptibility of all strains to penicillin and ceftriaxone was increased up to 16-fold by an elevation of temperature from 36 degrees C to 38 degrees C.

These in vitro data suggest that elevated body temperature MAY (caps mine) be beneficial during antimicrobial treatment of Lyme disease. This may be particularly important in tissues where high concentrations of antibiotics are difficult to achieve.

..........................................................................................

unfortunately this an in vitro study from 8 yrs ago.

in vivo studies would be fantastic but the nih doesn't give money to watch people sweat (though our tax money was passed by our 'representatives' in the house yesterday to support a $10.1 billion buyout of quotas held by tobacco farmers).

anyhow...

food for thought :

the malariotherapy used a century ago in syphillis, and referred to in the article above, would support the use of plaquenil (hydrochloroquine) and its synergistic and proficient effect with antibiotics.

FWIW, not only those with explicit heart trouble, but also those with low blood pressure should exercise sensible caution with any heat treatments.

Just as reference vis-a-vis the issue of fitness, I was a very fit runner for many years, and even then I couldn't take saunas/too hot baths etc. I pass out very quickly & have run the danger of serious injury from falling and hitting my head.

This could be hazardous when attempting such things alone - Michael, just make sure you have someone around to check in on you while you're experimenting, 'k?

Absolutely, one should not do this heat therapy alone due to the risk of heart failure or passing out for other reasons.

Whether sauna is better than hot bath is better than steam bath is better than... I just have no idea.

So far I've tried hot tub, shower and sauna. And unquestionably, the sauna resulted in the strongest after effects (herx I pressume.)

I sat in a sauna for 15min today and kept spraying water on the rocks. That made it very steamy and I could feel the steam in my lungs.

It was quite comfortable in fact. But ~2 hours later I developed the worst headache since my spinal tap. Also, I became very foggy headed and ability to speak was not good. I also got very irritated at things.

So I think all this is a good sign.

Someone mentioned earlier that doing heat treatment didn't make them feel any better.

I don't think it's supposed to make you feel better in the short term. Those toxins are not easily gotten rid of.

quote:

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Originally posted by shelley:
...someone mentioned you should not do sauna if you still have metal (fillings) in your mouth, or if you have a heavy metal toxicity problem.. something like that.

I think it is related somehow.. to the detox pathways in your body, and metals leaving blood and other areas (tissues) first and then getting 'pulled' out of the brain and redeposited back into these areas.

Don't quote me on this, but from what I've heard in the past about this.. this is what I got out of it.

Not trying to hender your heat therapy, or your enjoyment from saunas..

just want you to keep this in mind in case your brain fog or headache is somehow related to this.

Also, when you get out of the sauna, imo, you should be sure to quickly rinse w/ cold water to rinse off toxins, so they don't get reabsorbed..

and to close the pores so you don't sweat out and reabsorb more toxins.

---

Thanks for the advice.

I never had my metal levels evaluated. My LLMD never mentioned this.

He never tested for a bunch of other things either, such as hormones, candida and mycoplasma.

I'm seeing another LLMD next week for a second opinion. One who's much more into testing.

I copied this from a psot by Kara in General ..from which she copied out of an old medical text on treating spitochetal infection in syphillis.

Check out the latter parts on heat.

Their overall understanding of the disease's behavior is also impressive..makes you wonder if medicine has taken a backwards turn due to beurocracy..

Alas..that is another discussion..

Mo

Posted by Kara:
A specific cure in the shape of arsenic (606) was given to the world by Ehrlich in 1910. It it called 606 because he had previously come up with 605 other preparations.
In all laboratory tests for syphilis the results of a wrong report are so far reaching and disasterous that the most meticulous care is needed not only in performance of the test but also in the collection and labelling of the sampling of blood. (something today's Dr.'s could learn from dont you think)

The disease can be cured in the majority of cases PROVIDED that an EARLY DIAGNOSIS is made and VIGOROUS treatment is started at once.

Treatment of Syphilis:
Give alternative courses of arsphenamine (arsenic) and bismuth (not sure what this is--but the internet says it comes from lead!) for AT LEAST 18 MONTHS.

The bismuth stimulates the defense of the body more than mercury while the arsenic holds the spirochetes in check.

*Disease producing bacteria invade the tissues. An interval always elapses between invasion and the first appearance of symptoms. In a chronic disease it may be a question of months or even years.

*It is easy enough to kill bacteria outside the body; it is enourmously more difficult to kill them in the living body.

Tuberculosis, syphilis, and other important disease are examples of chronic inflammation (could mean fibro..you think??)

but in these cases the defense forces are the cells of the tissues rather than those of the blood.

Treatment can be made by hyperthermy or the artificial production of fever.

It prevents the growth of certain bacteria and tends to destroy them. It stimulates the formation of immune bodies which have an antibacterial action.

Various methods can be used. Hot baths (sauna??), radiant heat from lamps, the injection of proteins in to the blood stream, the use of malaria and high frequency electrical energy (rife??).

The most favored method is the hypertherm an chamber which contains the entire body except head and neck. A temp. of 106 must be maintained for five hours. This treatment cannot be used in old age or in advanced disease of the heart of kidneys. The patient must be kept under constant supervision.

***
Sounds to me that they knew a lot!

Anyone seen one of those heat chambers on eBay?