I just recieved my test kit for the Western Blot for lyme... through Igenex.... and am also still waiting for the PCR for Babesia kit.

I am now reading in some info I have about Bowen Labs. I am in Canada and my LLMD uses the IGENEX.

I am paying out of my pocket and mammalyme suggested the Bowenlabs. It would be half as much to go with Bowenlabs.

Just wondering what others had to say about this, as new info pops up all the time.

thanks,

I used IGENEX, Calif.; they test all 16 bands! Iwas positive on both.

Bowen, I know nothing about personally.

May I suggest you do a SEARCH, found up on top right side typing in Bowen and Igenex. There has been a lot of stuff about them.

Nick Harris, PhD, IGeneX CEO: Lyme Testing http://www.igenex.com/about.htm

In his talk, Harris discussed his lab's credentials, and how hard it is to get certified as a commercial lab serving New York state and California. Unlike many labs, IGeneX uses two strains of the Lyme bacteria (B31 and 297), so it's more likely to detect strains from the Midwestern US and Europe. It also tests for the late Lyme markers of 31kDa and 34kDa, which take 6 months to develop, and aren't always included in other labs's Western Blot tests.

He presented a physician's testing strategy for patients who are suspected of having chronic Lyme disease.

His definition of a positive Lyme diagnosis:

A positive whole blood PCR test (detects Bb DNA)
or
A positive IgG and IgM Western Blot (especially if the 31 or 34 kDA bands are positive.)

If these criteria aren't met, and the physician still wants to confirm a clinical diagnosis with a positive test, he suggests an antibiotic challenge to increase the amount of free-floating Bb in the system, then running a Lyme Dot Blot test and a 3-sample pooled urine PCR test.

Important note: IGeneX has found that blood samples yield more positives when taken in the late afternoon, the time when most Lyme patients experience their intense bouts of fatigue.

Both labs seem user friendly. You might even contact them direct in order to help you make your decision.

Rapid test for identification of the Borrelia burgdorferi antigen (causative agent of Lyme disease). This test is appropriate for blood, tissue, or any body fluid. Samples are examined under a fluorescent microscope.
A blood smear for the tick-borne bacterial infection Ehrlichia.
A blood smear for the parasite Babesia.
Q. How different is the RIBb from other tests?

A. The RIBb test looks specifically for the Borrelia burgdorferi antigen. Other tests such as Western Blot and Elisa look for an antibody response in the patient's blood. Because the antibody response does not usually occur immediately following infection, many false negative results are observed. The RIBb test is extremely accurate. We have developed controls to ensure no false positive or false negative results. A quantitative reported value is obtained through serial dilutions. Check the research update.

Q. Where / how can I get this test done?

A. This test is available only at Bowen Research and Training Institute Inc. as it is still in the research phase. We need a physician or nurse practitioner written order. Have the office call us at 727-937-9077. This establishes him/her as a Protocol Physician in our research study. We will answer any questions and fax all paperwork to his/her office.

Q. When will I get the results?

A. Results are given by the ordering physician. Information cannot be given to patients by our laboratory. A preliminary report is faxed within 24 hours. The final report with digital color images is mailed within 48 hours.

Q. How much does it cost?

A. A donation of $250.00 for blood, $150.00 for all other specimen types is payable by check, money order or by credit card (VISA, Mastercard or American Express) on our website.

Q. Will insurance pay for the test?

A. This is a research project that relies solely on donations to cover the cost of testing. We can furnish a receipt for a tax deductible contribution.

Q. What if I am on antibiotics? Will the test be reliable?

A. Yes. You do not need to stop any prescription. The RIBb test is capable of identifying the Bb antigen regardless of medication.

Q. Why do I have to fill out a questionnaire and consent form?

A. The questionnaires provide valuable information that is entered into our database. This will allow statistical information on emergence and symptoms. Please fill out the questionnaire completely as your participation will lead to a greater understanding of this disease.

Q. Why are so many of the RIBb tests positive?

A. Our fluorescent antibody test for the rapid identification of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) (RIBb)(c) is positive for the Bb antigen in over 2800 blood samples, although we have found negative results in other bodily fluids and tissues. On 316 same draw blood samples, 316 cultured specimens grew out the organism Bb, and our RIBb test was positive on all 316. The culture method is the gold standard for making a definitive diagnosis of an infectious disease.

All of the patients submitting specimens have clinical signs and symptoms of Lyme disease. We feel the explanation for the positive specimens is that this is no longer just a tick-borne infection. Bb has been found in dogs, cats, Florida and California mosquitoes, well water, breast milk, placental tissue, seminal fluid, and even African dust. It seems reasonable that everyone has been exposed to this very clever bacterium, and some individuals without symptoms may represent a carrier state of Borrelia burgdorferi. See the Lyme research update for information on the quantitative RIBb test.

Bowen Research & Training Institute

Connell Square

38541 US HWY 19 N., Palm Harbor, FL 34684

Be sure to click on 'Special Images of Lyme & Babesia' in the text.

Also: www.bowen.org

SandiB

1) The high likelyhood of a positive Lyme test, and

2) The images.

Firstly, images are well known to have, obviously, a strong visual impact. But what proof are they really that what is shown on the picture is indeed a Lyme bacteria?

Secondly, the high likelyhood of getting a positive test back from Bowen doesn't mean squat unless Bowen demonstrates that the likelyhood of a false positive is near 0%.

And as far as I know, THEY HAVE NOT.

Have they?

I'm NOT saying their method is bogus. I'm just suspecious.

And, yes, I do understand why it is that people like us who are often seronegative, but otherwise exhibit symptoms of neuroLyme, would get a positive test from Bowen.

Still, the result only means something if Bowen demonstrates near 0% chance of a false positive.

If you still have some questions after reading the post on this link let us know.

I wanted to know what I was fighting. I have been using only the Bowen labs since. Do you know they now have their patent? They were already approved for the co-infections since this is a standard-type test. I had HME, HGE and babs plus the lyme. I was very, very sick. Now am doing pretty good.
Go to: www.lymediseaseinformation.com to look at the Pfizer pamphlet on line and you will see the pictures that Bowen gives you of the co-infections. It is called experience. You want to know what you are actually dealing with or be in the dark and get worse. it is that simple. No one is forcing your arm to find out what is really going on in your body.

I will say it again. I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time. I'm just suspecious of nature.

The fact is you're not addressing my question about the false positives. The LymeNet user heiwalove in the LymeNet thread you supplied asked the same question...twice...and was brushed off as well.

You supplied him/her with a link to an article that you claimed addressed his/her question. But the article did NOT address the false positive issue.

I can understand what so many people claim that "Bowen saved my life" if it turned out that it caused their doctor to finally start treating them accordingly or if they managed to convince their insurance carrier that they have Lyme.

But that in itself does not make the Bowen test accurate.

When people, who suspect they have Lyme, finally do take the Bowen test, they are likely to get a positive test for Lyme in two instances:

1) from a lab which has a highly accurate Lyme test, and

2) from a lab which has a Lyme test which has a high likelyhood of false positive and any likelyhood of a low likelyhood of a false negative.

Bowen has not proven which of the two they belong to since they only test people who are known to already have Lyme. Therefore, the tests will always come back positive.

Answer:

Bowen doesn't believe that they have false positives.

The specific antibody is purified and tested for cross-reactivity with other antigens.

During the analysis they look for fluorescing structures and they double check the organism in phase-contrast.

This gives two positive forms of identification.

Question:

.....and false negative) of their test?

Answer:

The precision is within 0.9SD of the Serial dilution curve. The easiest way to explain this is:

They examine specific serial dilution values: 1:2, 1:4, 1:8, 1:16, 1:32, 1:64, and 1:128.

Lets use an example of an individual's actual Serial dilution value is 1:50.

It is possible that they may or may not find a fluorescing structure in the 1:64, they will see it in the 1:32.

They are precise within 0.9 standard deviations on any given serial dilution sampling.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SandiB:
Michael's Question:
I'm asking a simple AND fundamental question of any lab test, namely: what is the false positive?

Answer:
Bowen doesn't believe that they have false positives.

The specific antibody is purified and tested for cross-reactivity with other antigens.

During the analysis they look for fluorescing structures and they double check the organism in phase-contrast.

This gives two positive forms of identification.

---

I would think that any reputable lab that has the golden test for Lyme would be advertising all over the internet and the news about their method.

Obviously, they'd need to back up their claims with blind experiments, etc. Otherwise, most doctors would not rely on their tests...

...unless of course they had blind faith in Whitaker. My two quite respectable LLMDs in Westchester, NY, don't use Bowen and are scheptical towards the results.

How in the world is the FDA going to approve their technique?

Is Bowen just gonna tell the FDA, "Listen, we believe the likelyhood of a false positive is extremely low. Just take our word for it. Whitaker has been using this method since the 60's."

And then the FDA says, "OK, Bowen. You're approved."

Come on. This is too naive. What is going on?

I'm speechless.

How about you Lymies? Don't you think this is a bit odd anyone? Why aren't more of you upset about this? Or do you all just wanna hear that you have Lyme from some lab.

Believe me, I want to find out too what's wrong with me. But I'm not wasting my money on Bowen until some hardcore data, objective experiments and suitable explanations exist that address the issue of false positives and false negatives.

If it were not for Bowen some have said, they would still be SICK. AND, some had used Igenex before they went to Bowen.

I listen to this, because these people are like us Michael, sick, and want to get better. Many on here share their successes, and I believe that is what really counts...

Hardcore data might be too late for some, they may be DEAD by then.

Research, listen to the poeple on here that have used them, and then decide what to do.
Go to Igenex if you want, and if nothing shows there, then Bowen. What have you got to looose? yes, $250, but it is better to loose this then your life, that is what some are battling.

Dr. B. in Long Island, NY doesn't seem to put too much faith in the Bowen test for Lyme, but he does believe in their test for Babesia.

My husband had one positive test for Babesia from Bowen over 2 years ago. He has been tested for Babesia 3 times I think at Igenex and 3 times or so at MDL and 1 time at Stoney Brook in NY plus a couple of times from either Lab Corp or Quest over the last 2 years -- ALL NEGATIVE. A 2nd test at Bowen about 6 months ago was also negative for Babesia.

ALL OF THESE TESTS WERE PRIOR TO ANY SPECIFIC TREATMENT FOR BABESIA.

Dr. B. decided to treat based on the one positive Bowen test which everyone else had ignored.

Steve had what was probably an allergic reaction to Mepron. He was taking that with Zithromax and Artemesinin. I'll write more about that later as I would really like to get more input about the allergy/rash issue.

3 weeks after stopping Mepron he started having shaking chills, fevers, sweating and increased "seizure-like" episodes. Also new symptoms of severe body aches -- muscles, joints, tendons, bones -- plus really bad headaches. Also increased fatigue -- sleeps an additional 2 - 3 hours during the afternoon almost every day.

Next tried Lariam, Doxycycline and Artemesinin. Had to discontinue due to what I call actual seizures (includes loss of consciousness and loss of bladder control part of the time). Also had several falls which hadn't happened in 6 months or more. Mood problems were really an issue with the Lariam as well.

Prior to this he never had fevers but temp consistently ran about a degree low. Night sweats only once every 4 - 6 weeks or less.

Now fever every day up to 99.6 or so and sweats multiple times daily. Body aches and pains continue as does severe fatigue.

IF THIS IS NOT BABESIA, THEN I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW WHAT IT IS AS IT IS DRIVING US BOTH UP THE WALL.

Will see what Dr.C in MO says in a couple of weeks.

In my opinion no one lab or test is anywhere near perfect. I wish the results between the labs were more consistent, but you have to make decisions based on the best info you have and hope and pray for the best.

Believe me, we have made many mistakes by being too trusting of doctors in the past. I just wish I had found this site 3 years ago instead of just 3 weeks ago.

I am normally a very optimistic person, but my husband's illness is really starting to wear me down after 3 1/2 years. Living in a constant state of crisis gets old very quickly -- not to mention living out of a suitcase for 3 1/2 years while we traveled looking for a diagnosis and treatment.

Wow! Even Dr.B. is scheptical toward the QRIBb method for Lyme.

Btw, he only mentioned it for Babs in his guidelines.

So now I know of three of the most well respected LLMDs in the entire country who are scheptical of the QRIBb test for Lyme.

Doesn't that mean anything to anyone?

Bowen get 316 positive QRIBb results from testing the blood of 316 people who are known to have Lyme (fromm a culture growth.)

How much blood does Bowen use for their tests?

I mean, isn't there just a slim chance, statistically speaking, that there is NOT a single spirocheet in 5ml blood (or whatever amount Bowen used.)

Isn't it well known that there are few spirocheets (even in L-form) in the blood. It prefers tissue, right?

Think about the PCR testing. One reason why this test is often negative is because there ARE SO FEW spirocheets in the blood.

Sending your blood to Bowen doesn't increase the concentration of spirocheets in the blood, does it? Though, supposedly Bowen can detect the cyst form, which PCR can not.

Health,

I'm not saying the Bowen didn't save peoples lives. I truly believe that it has. I can understand that.

But I hope you know that a sugar pill can save a persons life too. It's called the placebo effect.

I'm not trying to upset you. Just trying to drive home a point.

Having said that, I'm quite convinced that whoever send their blood to Bowen for Lyme testing is already near-100% likely to have Lyme but it simply testing seronegative elsewhere.

Listen, you could send the blood to me too and with extremely high confidence I could send back a test result that stated that you have Lyme.

But that doesn't make my method for testing for Lyme accurate. Doesn't anyone see that?

I'm not questioning the power that a positive test from Bowen may have on a patient mental state and the impact it may have on convincing a doctor to treat a person for Lyme and the insurance company caching out for the drugs.

Power to you if all this happened to you. It should have happened anyway since you HAVE Lyme, right!

The fact (so far) remains that Bowen has not proven their method and apparantly doesn't see a need to do so.

And THAT sort of attitude and arrogance, my dear lymies, is NOT in your best interest.

Rosie, lymetoo, tincup, treepatrol, cave76, troutscout, etc. Don't you got nothing to say?

I'm also allergic to every antibiotic I've ever tried so I couldn't do the therapy to drive out the spirochetes and stimulate an immune response to convert to seropositive. To top it off, I have recurring Epstein-Barr infections which can cause false positives on the Western Blot.

So I spoke to the people at Bowen a few times, asked a lot of questions on this site, and became convinced that it was a valid test. By the way, they do now have negative controls (early on they were only testing sick people who had a clinical diagnosis of lyme).

My personal opinion is that most doctors are going to shy away from the testing for a few reasons.

First, it's not covered by insurance.

Second, they are still undergoing an approval process which I doubt will go through because if it does, the government will have to acknowledge the truth - we have an epidemic. That could wreak havoc in the insurance industry and the medical community.

Third, Dr. Lida Mattman, who is now blacklisted because she was determining that many people diagnosed with MS and other neurological diseases had lyme, did all the culturing to confirm the initial test results. I have spoken with her personally and she is a brilliant scientist who was held in high regard in medical circles and was a Nobel Prize nominee until she touched a sacred cow of the medical establishment.

Fourth, doctors who treat lyme are already being persecuted and prosecuted and they're trying to stay as mainstream as possible as far as possible. Since Bowen is a research lab, this might not be sufficient evidence to support cases if their license is challenged.

The lab does approximately 10 tests per day and has strict protocols to avoid cross-contamination of samples. I sent in 10 ml of blood for the testing which also included co-infections and e-Coli. A blood smear is done and if any bacteria are present they pick up the stain and fluoresce (which is what the pictures show).

Then a serial dilution is done on a scale of 1:2 to 1:128 to see what kind of load you have in the bloodstream. Of course that only shows what's in the blood, not the tissues. I will have it tested again after a few months on TOA-free cat's claw to see if anything changes. When I first started using it after getting the test I had all the typical herx reactions that are associated with antibiotic therapy.

I began taking the homeopathic used to treat lyme by veterinareans and was on it several weeks before getting tested (which has lowered titers in animals). My serial dilution came back very low 1:2, but I did have spirochetes present which we expected.

A friend of mine who had been diagnosed with MS 20 years ago had a test done a few days later. Her dilution ratio was 1:16 and she had not started any kind of treatment. We both were negative for all co-infections. We both had clinical symptoms of lyme with known tick bites.

If you're not comfortable with the Bowen test and don't trust the results, then don't get it. I needed to have some oral surgery and wanted to be sure my ratio was low before risking that kind of stress on my body since I'm still dealing with residual neurological symptoms from West Nile. I feel confident that it's at a level my body can deal with right now, so for me it was very useful.

I think one of the greatest benefits is seeing if acute symptoms are likely caused by lyme which would be associated with higher dilution ratios, or if it's something else which needs to be diagnosed and treated. Not everything we experience will be caused by lyme and it could be dangerous to assume all symptoms are just a flare-up or herxing. The Bowen test can help differentiate when you have a baseline and then use it as a comparison.

So that's my reasoning. I have a background in biochemistry and am confident in the methods and accuracy of the testing. While I don't tend to get into conspiracy theories, based on the fact that lyme can be spread in the same way as AIDS including through the blood supply, I think it's very likely that much of the population has been exposed, and for many of us it can become a long-term problem when our immune systems are compromised from other factors, whether environmental, viral, or whatever.

However, I tend to see it as more of a problem with the host, not the parasite. The first step is to reduce the load by killing off the spirochetes with whatever means we can tolerate, but if we don't focus on optimizing our health in other ways at the same time, it will pop right back up.

I personally know of two people, one diagnosed with ALS and the other with Parkinson's, who got well after lyme treatment. This type of thing will cause not just ripples but earthquakes in the medical establishment and I'm not surprised to see resistance. I'm just thankful that we are finally starting to recognize the possibility of infection as a either a cause or catalyst for these conditions.

Can you expand on the negative findings at Bowen please? Do you have a link or something?

I agree that there are much more people infected with Lyme that is commonly thought.

I'm quite convinced it can be transfered in the same manner as AIDS.

We know it can be transferred through blood transfusions, through blood donation and that women may pass it on to an unborn child.

In conjunction with the fact that Lyme has existed for a LONG time (reports of bulls eye and classic Lyme symptoms go back at least 100years) and that Bb is crafty at surviving, it seems plausible that indeed a very large fraction of the population may be infected.

And if a tick can carry Bb, why can't other bugs that bite us, such as mosquitoes and spiders? What's the theory on these vectors?

Michael

I spoke to a technician at the lab about some of my concerns (same as you voiced), specifically about everyone testing positive. I was told that they do have negative controls now. I don't know how many or from what countries, but they are in place.

I would have been really concerned if everyone tested positive for the co-infections, but that's not the case.

As far as it being transmitted by other vectors, the best information I've found is actually in the Merck Veterinary Manual in a section on avian borreliosis:

"Other vectors (lice, mosquitoes, some species of ticks, inanimate objects) can transmit the spirochete mechanically to a susceptible host whenever the piercing apparatus becomes contaminated with blood that contains Borrelia." I'll paste in the full section below - remember this is specifically referring to birds.

Notice that the diagnosis is exactly the same method used by Bowen...a blood smear with stain that fluoresces under a darkfield microscope. It's very interesting - wish human doctors would apply it!

Jan

From the Online Merck Veterinary Manual:

(Avian borreliosis)
Avian spirochetosis is an acute, febrile, septicemic, bacterial disease that affects a wide variety of birds.

Etiology, Epidemiology, and Transmission: The causal organism, Borrelia anserina , is an actively motile spirochete, ~0.2-0.3 �m � 8-20 �m and consists of 5-8 loosely arranged coils. No reliable data are available concerning in vitro cultivation. It can be propagated in embryonating duck or chick embryos or in young ducks or chicks.

Spirochetosis is found worldwide, but generally in temperate or tropical regions, wherever the biological vectors are found. The notable worldwide vector is Argas (Persicargas) persicus , the ``cosmopolitan'' fowl tick, but other Argas spp transmit the disease in different geographic areas. In the western USA, a highly efficient vector is A sanchezi .

Diverse immunological and serological types of B anserina have been demonstrated in many areas. Recovery from one type confers solid immunity against the homologous types for ≥1 yr, but none against heterologous strains. Relapses, such as occur with some human Borrelia infections, are unknown in B anserina infection of birds; any reinfection can be attributed to a heterologous type.

Generally, an infected Argas tick can transmit the disease at every feeding and maintains the infection throughout larval, nymphal, and adult stages. The ticks also transmit the infection transovarially, ie, the F1 larvae are infective. Ticks remain infected with Borrelia despite feeding on chicks hyperimmune to B anserina or on chicks with high blood levels of chemotherapeutic agents effective against Borrelia (such as the penicillins). Other vectors (lice, mosquitoes, some species of ticks, inanimate objects) can transmit the spirochete mechanically to a susceptible host whenever the piercing apparatus becomes contaminated with blood that contains Borrelia . Ingestion of bile-stained fecal droppings containing the spirochete, as well as acts of cannibalism during spirochetemia can result in infection. After the bite of an infected tick, the incubation period is ~4-7 days.


Clinical Findings: Signs are highly variable, depending on the virulence of the spirochete, and thus are not pathognomonic. They include listlessness, depression, somnolence, moderate to marked shivering, and increased thirst. Young birds are affected more severely than older ones. During the initial stages of the disease, there is usually a greenish yellow diarrhea with increased urates. The course of the disease is 1-2 wk. Mild strains are not unusual. However, in many tick-infested geographical areas, morbidity can approach 100% and mortality >90% has been recorded.

Lesions: An enlarged spleen with petechial or ecchymotic hemorrhages is the most notable gross lesion. This mottled or marbled appearance is not unlike spleens in marble spleen disease of pheasants ( Marble Spleen Disease Of Pheasants: Introduction). However, a contrasting situation may be seen in Mongolian pheasants, in which the spleen is reported to be small and pale. Occasionally, the liver may be swollen and contain focal areas of necrosis. Kidneys may be enlarged and pale. A green, catarrhal enteritis is common.


Diagnosis: Diagnosis rests on demonstration of Borrelia in the blood, either as actively motile Borrelia during darkfield microscopy, or as stained spirochetes in Giemsa-stained blood smears. In young birds, the Borrelia may reach vast numbers per oil-immersion field and persist for several days. Older birds usually have low numbers of Borrelia that are detected only with difficulty, or not at all, and that persist for only 1-2 days. Anemia is common and results in increased numbers of immature RBC.

Agar-gel diffusion and various serological tests have been described but are of questionable value due to diverse serotypes that exist in some localities. Specific agglutinins clump the spirochetes in successively larger clumps during the terminal stages of the disease. Agglutination-lysis then begins to disintegrate these clumps, and spirochetal degradation products are liberated, which may result in pyrexia. Death occurs most often 1-3 days after Borrelia disappear from the bloodstream.


Treatment and Control: Several chemotherapeutic agents are effective. The most widely used are penicillin derivatives, but the streptomycins and tetracyclines are also effective. The antibiotics can be completely efficacious if begun when the number of spirochetes per oil-immersion field is low or moderate; however, if large numbers of spirochetes are present in the bloodstream when chemotherapy is begun, the sudden liberation of large quantities of spirochetal degradation products can result in more deaths than no treatment.

Control must first be directed against the biological vector. Argas ticks are notable for their long life span, ability to survive for extended periods without a blood meal, efficiency in transmitting the spirochete, and an ability to remain securely hidden in cracks and crevices often beyond the effective reach of pesticides. Accordingly, control is difficult. A combination of tick eradication and immunization offers the most effective means of control.

Immunization can be highly successful and, next to eradication of the biological vector, is the preferred method of control. Bacterins prepared from infective blood have been used with success. The most widely used bacterins are egg-propagated products composed of yolk material containing the spirochetes, but whole-egg propagated bacterins have been used successfully; usually one or two IM injections suffice. Formalin (0.2%) is usually used to inactivate the spirochetes. The appropriate serotype(s) of the spirochete in any given locality must be used. Little if any cross-protection is afforded to different serotypes.

My thoughts on this is that "everyone is now very clear on your opinion of Bowen". I doubt anyone is interested in continuing to debate this with you.

The person beginning this message is interested in the difference between Igenex and Bowen.......not an arguement or a debate.

Please realize your opinion is clearly understood by all who have taken part in this discussion. Also, it's not necessary for you to continue "to sound so negative" concerning Bowen.

Thanks and God Bless All Of Us,

quote:

---

Originally posted by b333:
For a person who "hate to do this and sound so negative"....I'm surprised you managed to do it over and over again 6 times.

---

If you step back and look at this issue from my point, maybe you'll see what I mean.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that the QRIBb method for Lyme testing is inaccurate. Read the postings IN CONTEXT and you'll see that.

I'm merely suspecious. And so I'm just trying to find out what the status of the false positives is.

Then I try to back up my reason for being suspecious by hashing available information.

The reason I keep going on is that the answers I got didn't address my question or were not answers that I consider acceptable.

I have a right to do this in this forum. I can debate this issue as much as I like as long as I stay on topic and don't attack anyone.

Btw, are you the moderator?

If not, it is not your place to educate people and micro-manage what they can and cannot write in a thread.

quote:

---

Originally posted by b333:
My thoughts on this is that "everyone is now very clear on your opinion of Bowen". I doubt anyone is interested in continuing to debate this with you.

Please realize your opinion is clearly understood by all who have taken part in this discussion.

---

How in the world can you know these things?

And how do you know that there are not five other Lymies reading these postings with the greatest interest? How?

You gonna try to deprive them because you disapprove of my postings?

quote:

---

Originally posted by b333:
The person beginning this message is interested in the difference between Igenex and Bowen.......not an arguement or a debate.

---

But you go beyond your own opinion. You secondguess what other people are interested in.

We live in a free society. And in such a society you CAN NOT impose your opinions on other people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by b333:
Also, it's not necessary for you to continue "to sound so negative" concerning Bowen.

---

In the future please complain to the moderator if you have any complaints about me or others. Or at the very least send a private email.

Did anyone hear of Gensys?

--- http://www.cms.hhs.gov/clia/default.asp?

CMS regulates all laboratory testing (except research) performed on humans in the U.S. through the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments (CLIA). In total CLIA covers approximately 175,000 laboratory entities. The Division of Laboratory Services, within the Survey and Certification Group, under the Center for Medicaid and State Operations has the responsibility for implementing the CLIA Program.

The objective of the CLIA program is to ensure quality laboratory testing. Although all clinical laboratories must be properly certified to receive Medicare or Medicaid payments, CLIA has no direct Medicare or Medicaid program responsibilities. Here are helpful sites related to the Medicare and Medicaid programs.

Here's what I have seen related to your question:

"Originally a CLIA approved lab until April of 2003, the institute, lacking in vital grant funding, changed its status from that of a clinical lab to a research facility under the State of Florida Health Department. Since its inception, the main focus at the institute has been the development of an accurate test for the Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) antigen, the causative agent of Lyme disease."

This was on a doctor's website. It looks like you have to have clinical lab status to be CLIA certified. You might want to call the lab to check on the status now.