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Author Topic: adrenal levels low
achey
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I just got result of adrenal stress test. cortisol level way too low, DHEA low too. I can't remember what this means.

CD-57 was low too and TSH.

others have experience with theses symptoms?

Please share your experience.
Thanks


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Tincup
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Hey there achey...

Sounds like your brain needs some good stimulation?

I tried taking meds and supplements to fix things you mentioned. They partially worked at times.. but not great.

What helped me was the Chiropractic Neurologist. By them working with me for less than a month and gently getting my brain functioning... I was able to stop all meds/supplements and have not had to return to using them at all.

All natural approach.. no meds.. no pain.

Hope this helps.


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achey
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Tincup,
Glad to see you're back from your space travel!
The interesting thing abt these new adrenal findings , oh, thyroid is off, too, is that I have been having a lot of work done on my adrenals and brain through chiropratics and IMT (Integrative Manual Therapy). Lot of supportive suppliment, too.

Still levels are way too low... My ND wants me to do DHEA suppliments and Cortef. I'm going down to Center IMT in Ct today, gonna get the DHEa and cortef tested. If my body really needs it, I guess I may need to take it to jump start my system.

I had to do that with my thyroid a couple of years ago. Thyroid crashed, took Armour fofor abt a year until things turned back on. That was all pre LD dx. But appartently thyroid is crashed again.

And un top of that, Pain and discoloration that has been present in my right leg for a few years is acting up again. Didn't sleep much last night.

Sometimes this just all feels like too much. Last week opthamologist found a blind spot in left eye.

I think I need a major TLC spa vacation!
What I wouldn't give for a full body masssage!



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Foggy
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Isn't Cortef a steroid? I'd mention this to your LLMD.
http://health.yahoo.com/drug/202018/cortef

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treepatrol
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What are hydrocortisone tablets?



HYDROCORTISONE (Cortef�, Hydrocortone�) is a corticosteroid. It helps to reduce swelling, redness, itching, and allergic reactions. Hydrocortisone is similar to natural steroid hormone produced by the adrenal gland. Hydrocortisone treats severe allergies, skin problems, asthma, arthritis, or many other conditions. Generic hydrocortisone tablets are available.


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achey
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" Foggy:
[B]Isn't Cortef a steroid? I'd mention this to your LLMD."

Yes, cortef is a steriod, that is absorbed by the body to replace missing cortisol, also a steriod/ hormone necessary for life. My cortisol levels tanked so much that I need treatment to stay out of adrenal shock.

My ND is giving my a Phsiological replacement dose of cortef to bring my adrenal glands to a normal functioning level so they can heal. The treatment is for 6 weeks and monitored. We will be re-testing my adrenal function after 4 wks.

A physiological replacement dose of a hormone/steriod does not suppress the immune system, it inhances it. It's very similar to taking Armour thyroid for low functioning thyroid.


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DiffyQue
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Hi Achey,

I found this article on the adrenal gland, suggesting ways to monitor one's own adrenal function at home, and at minimal expense.

While this study is on caffeine, the tests done for this study, the paper suggests that these tests can be performed at home, for any drug or even beverages and food.

Hope this helps
http://www.garynull.com/Article.aspx?Article=/Library.aspx&Head=Library


A Pilot Study of Some Physiological
and Psychological Effects of Caffeine

Sanford Bolton, Ph.D.1
Martin Feldman, M.D.2, Gary Null, M.S.3
Emanuel Revici, M.D.3 and Linda Stumper, B.S.1

from the Journal of Orthomolecular Psychiatry, Vol. 13, #1

Home

Abstract

Eleven volunteers participated in a study to characterize some physiological and psychological effects of caffeine in a double-blind, crossover study. During one week, the subjects were given a caffeine-containing beverage, and during a second week, they were given an identically appearing non-caffeine beverage. Data were accumulated based on urine tests and a medical examination. Diary entries revealed typical effects of caffeine such as increased energy, nervousness and restlessness which were observed after the week of caffeine consumption. A medical examination showed increased adrenal function for those subjects who were non-users or occasional users of caffeine beverages. Habitual users of caffeine beverages showed no obvious adrenal effects. Determination of pH, surface tension and viscosity of urine during the two weeks of the study showed evidence that caffeine is an "anabolic" agent according to a theory suggested by Dr. E. Revici

Introduction

Caffeine, probably the most widely used drug, is a potent pharmacological and psychotropic agent (Bolton and Null, 1981 a and b; Goodman and Gilman, 1975). Many studies in both animals and humans have been performed in order to quantify and characterize its physiological and psychological effects.

The research presented in this paper consists of two kinds of observations resulting from consumption of caffeine beverage during a two-week period: (1) effects on adrenal function determined by a medical examination; and (2) physical-chemical measurements of urine, an indication of the anabolic effect of caffeine according to a theory proposed by Dr. E. Revici (1961). In addition, perceived psychological effects of caffeine were studied by means of a questionnaire and daily diary.

Eleven volunteers drank a caffeinated and non-caffeinated beverage during each of two weeks. Subjects were medically examined prior to the study and after each test week. In addition urine samples were tested both prior to the study and after each test week.

Perceived psychological effects are difficult to quantify. Goldstein has published several studies in which reactions to caffeinated and decaffeinated coffee were assessed in both caffeine and non-caffeine users using extensive questionnaires (Goldstein et al., 1969). The reactions depended on previous caffeine habituation and use. Heavy users of caffeine had fewer effects on sleep, and showed less irritability and nervousness as a result of caffeine intake.

Caffeine ingestion stimulates many bodily responses, some of which are opposite in direction (Goodman and Gilman, 1975). For example, after ingesting caffeine, the heart rate is initially decreased, and then increased about an hour after intake. "Caffeine causes increased serum lipids (Bellettet al., 1969) and affects glucose (Darragh et al., 1979) probably through catecholamine mediation."

Subjects who consume high levels of caffeine may, in part, enjoy the effects of the drug which is stimulating their otherwise under-functioning adrenal glands.

Previous experimental work has shown that caffeine increases the output of epinephrine and norepinephrine from the adrenal glands (Goodman and Gilman, 1981). In the present study, this effect of caffeine was measured by physical examination and urine sodium levels in the experimental subjects.

One of the principal objectives of this study was to study the effects of caffeine as an anabolic agent. Dr. E. Revici, after many years of research has proposed that drugs can be categorized by measuring certain physical-chemical properties of urine, as anabolic or catabolic (Revici, 1961).

Methods

Various responses were observed for 11 subjects during a two-week period. Each subject participated in a week of caffeine intake (110 mg daily) from an herbal tea, and a week of consumption of an otherwise identical non-caffeinated tea.

Subjects

The eleven volunteers were healthy persons between the ages of 20 and 35 years. They agreed to drink the test beverages during a two-week period on a double blind basis. Four of the subjects (CE, ZK, AG and AW) were chronic (2 or more years) coffee drinkers (2-6 cups/day). The other subjects either were abstainers or infrequent users of caffeine.

Psychological Effects

In addition to keeping a daily diary, subjects were requested to answer a questionnaire prior to, and after each week of the study, as follows:

1. Have you noticed a difference in your energy level?

2. Have you had more or less difficulty falling asleep?

3. Have you had more or less power of concentration and/or attention span?

4. Have you had a decrease or increase in mood, nervousness or depression?

5. Have you noticed any difference in muscular strength, endurance or stamina?

Adrenal Function

In addition to the data supplied by the diary, subjects were given a physical-medical examination to assess adrenal function prior to, and after each week of the study. According to Goodman and Gilman (1975) caffeine stimulates "the release of catecholamines from the adrenal medulla" Caffeine also releases catecholamines due to a central action and by affecting C-AMP.

The tests for adrenal function included the following:

1. Ragland Blood Pressure (Burch and de Pasquale, 1962).

2. Pulse

3. Blood pressure (seated)

4. Pupil size

5. Pupil response to light

6. Sodium content of urine

Ragland Postural Blood Pressure Test; Method and Physiological Basis (Burch and de Pasquale, 1962):

This test is a means of evaluating adrenal activity. It detects diminished adrenal function.

Method: The difference of the systolic blood pressure, measured with the patient in the supine position and in the erect or standing position, is an indication of adrenal function. The patient lies supine for four minutes. The blood pressure is taken in this position and immediately after the patient stands up.

Upon arising from the supine position and standing erect, the normal subject has a rise or elevation of the systolic blood pressure. The systolic pressure rises approximately 510 mm mercury. Since the cardiovascular system must pump blood to the head against the force of gravity, higher blood pressure is required.

When diminished adrenal function is present, the systolic blood pressure taken in the erect or standing position may actually fall. The degree of lowering of the erect blood pressure gives some indication of the magnitude of diminished adrenal function.

Adrenal glands have a major role in controlling the tone of the splanchnic veins. These veins do not have valves and are dependent upon nerve function.

Koenigsburg Test for Urinary Sodium Chloride Excretion (Brooks, 1925):

The adrenal gland produces aldosterone which instructs the kidney to retain sodium. If adrenal gland function is diminished, aldosterone production is decreased and salt is spilled into the urine.

Method: The Koenigsburg Test is a titration procedure. Ten drops of urine are placed in a test tube. One drop of 10 percent potassium chromate solution is added to the urine. 0.74 percent silver nitrate solution is added dropwise until the color of the solution turns brick red. The number of drops required for subjects with normal adrenal function is 17 to 25. Excessive sodium and chloride in the urine will require more silver nitrate regent to turn the solution brick red. The most common reason for spilling sodium into the urine is diminished aldosterone level as a result of diminished adrenal function.

Comparisons of the amount of sodium and chloride in the urine serve as an indirect reflection of aldosterone level and thus, indirectly, adrenal function. In early stages of diminished adrenal function, salt will spill into the urine. However, late in the course of adrenal exhaustion, there is very little salt left in the body and thus there is little salt available to spill.

Description of Pupilary Response to Light

The pupil in the normal subject reacts briskly and remains constricted as long as the light beam is present. If the body is severely sodium depleted, the pupilary constriction does not "hold" and the pupil oscillates. It may even fail to constrict at all. Although salt depletion may occur as a result of many abnormal physiologic processes, the most common is diminished adrenal function and diminished aldosterone and the subsequent chronic loss of sodium and chloride into the urine (Feldman).

Urine Measurements (Revici Anabolic/Catabolic Index) (Revco, 1961):

Fasting urine was analyzed prior to the study and after each of the two study weeks to determine specific gravity, surface tension (Revici urotensiometer) and pH. These results were combined to form an index to describe the catabolic/anabolic effect of the drug.

According to Dr. E. Revici, the best indication of catabolic/anabolic effect is measured by a composite index of the urine measurements as follows (Revici, personal communication):

Index = I = 2(74 - s.t.) + pH + last two digits of s.g.

Alkaline pH = 5 Neutral pH = 10 Acid pH = 20

For example if s.t. = 70, pH = acid and s.g. = 1.016, the index is 2 (74-70) + 20 + 16 = 44. Values above 40 are considered to be a result of administration of a "catabolic" agent and values below 40 are a result of an "anabolic" agent (See Discussion).

Results

Tables I, II and III present the results of the study. Missing data occurred because the volunteers either did not supply the necessary urine, or diary results, or did not keep medical appointments for examination of adrenal function.

Psychological Effects (Diary and Questionnaire)

Most of the subjects indicated no difference between the two weeks with regard to questions concerning changes in "concentration" and "strength" (questions 3 and 5 in diary). Differences which were recorded by the subjects are shown in Table 1. Three of four subjects indicated more energy during the "caffeine" week. Two subjects reported sleep problems during the second week, both of which were chronic caffeine users. Five of six subjects reporting an effect were more "nervous" and "irritable" during the caffeine week. This part of the study did not show clear cut effects due to caffeine, because of the small number of subjects and short duration of the study.

Adrenal Function

Table II is a summary of the adrenal function tests performed on ten subjects. The two criteria which were most affected by the ingestion of caffeine were Ragland blood pressure (standing minus supine diastolic blood pressure) and sodium excretion as measured by the "indicating" solution. (See Methods.)

Adrenal function was based on a clinical examination and an overall assessment of the blood pressure and sodium excretion as discussed above. With a couple of exceptions, the pupilary response to light did not show discrimination between the treatment weeks. Although, overall, the two weeks were not differentiated, an obvious pattern emerged. Most of those who were caffeine abstainers (5 of 6) were evaluated as having diminished adrenal function during the week of caffeine ingestion, whereas all of the habitual users of caffeine (4 of 4) showed no difference between the two weeks. Statistical analysis (t test) showed that the difference between the two groups (chronic users and abstainers of caffeine) is statistically significant (P < 0.05) for Ragland blood pressure and sodium excretion (P < 0.05).

Urine Measurements (Anabolic Effect)

Eight of the eleven subjects had urine measurements taken before the study and after each of the study weeks. The analysis of the urine was performed under blind conditions. (The analyst did not know whose urine sample was being tested or the beverage being taken.) The results are shown in Table III. There is a tendency toward a lower index (see Methods) during the "caffeine" week (Week 2) compared to the "non-caffeine" week. (Interestingly, the pre-study week showed results similar to the "caffeine" week). The ingestion of caffeine results in higher surface tension, more alkaline urine and a lower specific gravity on the average. Six of the eight subjects tested had a lower catabolic/anabolic index during the "caffeine" week compared to the caffeine-free week (P < 0.10). This is in conformance with the proposal of Dr. E. Revici ( 1961): Caffeine is an anabolic agent. Dr. Revici has been engaged in research for more than 50 years, during which he has spent considerable time building up his theory of anabolic/catabolic properties of therapeutic agents. This is the first time such an experiment has been independently carried out by others.

Discussion

The results of this double-blind study indicate that clinical tests show an apparent caffeine effect after one week of use as observed in a relatively small group of subjects.

Psychological Effects Subjects apparently observed some differences in (1) energy (increase with caffeine); (2) sleep patterns (more difficult sleeping with caffeine); and (3) mood (more problems with caffeine). Eight of the eleven subjects observed some difference between the two weeks of caffeine and non-caffeine use. There was no obvious tolerance in the group who were regular caffeine users, although it would be difficult to document such effects in a panel of this small size.

Although there was some suggestion of a caffeine effect in this very small group of subjects, subjective effects of caffeine were not obvious after one week's relatively moderate intake of a caffeine beverage.

Adrenal Function Caffeine has many effects upon body function. One of the major effects is to stimulate the adrenal glands to secrete epinephrine and norephinephrine, resulting in an immediate boost of energy. However, in time, the adrenal glands become exhausted (Feldman).

In our society, the stress of day-to-day living has a tendency to "wear out" our adrenal glands. This diminished activity results in fatigue. In order to revive adrenal function many people ingest moderate to high quantities of caffeine. This is an external stimulant. In time, this stimulation wears out the glands. Thus the immediate benefit is at the cost of eventual exhaustion (Feldman).

In day to day clinical practice, many patients come to the doctor's office complaining of fatigue. The severity of this symptom varies from "mild" to "severe". An example of "severe" fatigue is a feeling of being tired and drained of energy even upon awakening from a restful sleep. At the other end of the spectrum, is a diminished ability to work efficiently at the end of the day (Feldman).

Occasionally, the fatigue is a result of anemia, depression, malabsorption, a toxic state or a hypothyroid condition. However, it is our observation that most of the time fatigue is a result of diminished adrenal function or adrenal exhaustion. The level of adrenal function can be ascertained by appropriate physical examination and laboratory testing. As nutritional therapy corrects or improves adrenal gland function the patient's energy improves. If the adrenal gland returns to a normal state of function, the fatigue is minimized or is alleviated (Feldman).

In the active nutritional practice of one of the authors (Dr. Feldman), a recent review of medical records showed that more than 65 percent of new patients complaining of fatigue as a major medical symptom were drinking three or more cups of coffee or tea daily. Many patients reported increased intake of coffee and tea as their day-to-day fatigue became more severe. Upon interview they reported the necessity of coffee, tea, chocolate, or certain soft drink beverages to "boost" their energy. It is very likely that caffeine's ability to stimulate adrenal gland activity accounts for the popularity of caffeine beverages in our society.

In this study, the results of the physical examination and urine sodium excretion evaluation showed that chronic users of caffeine can be differentiated from non-users based on tests which reflected changes in adrenal function during the two test weeks.

Of the six subjects who used little or no caffeine intake prior to the study, four had diminished adrenal function when they were examined prior to the study. Five of this group of six had marked, measurable, diminished adrenal functions after the week of caffeine intake.

Of the four subjects who had a high intake of caffeine prior to the study, all had some degree of diminished adrenal function prior to the study. This diminished adrenal function remained about the same during the week of caffeine ingestion as well as the caffeine-free week.

The diminished adrenal function was mainly characterized by Ragland blood pressure measurements and sodium excretion in the urine.

Anabolic Effect (Revici Index)

A most interesting result was the effect of caffeine intake on certain physical-chemical properties of urine. Dr. E. Revici has developed a theory based on almost 50 years of research that body processes and the effect of drugs on these processes can be categorized as anabolic and catabolic (Dualistic Concept). Agents influencing these metabolic states mostly comprise the usual nutrients. However, drugs and other chemical agents may be categorized as anabolic or catabolic according to which process they stimulate. The result is an excitation of either the catabolic or anabolic effect. Caffeine is considered an anabolic agent because of its ability to donate methyl groups in anabolic processes according to Dr. E. Revici. Dr. Revici has used coffee (with 2 boiled eggs) to help elucidate the nature of symptoms of a disease. If the caffeine and eggs decreased the symptoms, the disease has catabolic character. If it increased the symptoms, the disease is anabolic. Caffeine can then be used to treat anabolic imbalances as a result of the disease.

Urine surface tension, specific gravity and pH are indications of catabolic or anabolic nature of the agent. If surface tension is above 69 dynes/cm, the agent is considered anabolic; alkaline urine is anabolic and a specific gravity below 1.016 is anabolic. The contrary results are catabolic. Each of the individual measures are quite variable, and it would be difficult to accurately categorize an active substance based on a single measure. The best way of analyzing such data is a composite index of all three effects, as recommended by Dr. Revici (1961). (See Methods.)

Conclusions

Caffeine use, at a relatively moderate level (2-3 cups of tea/day), results in distinct observable effects. In this research we have shown that various physiological and clinical effects can be ascertained after one week of caffeine ingestion compared to a control week.

The moderate intake of caffeine in the subjects not accustomed to caffeine produced marked diminution of adrenal function. In the subjects accustomed to moderate or high caffeine intake, the effects of the moderate caffeine load which we administered were indistinguishable from the baseline prior to the study and the week of no caffeine intake. Apparently, caffeine users become tolerant to these effects of caffeine on the adrenal glands.

Instead of stimulating the glands with caffeine, the adrenals should be supported nutritionally in order to repair them, according to Dr. Feldman. The nutritional program should include:

1. Diminished stressors

2. Learning how to diminish anxiety

3. Pantothenic acid

4. Vitamin C

5. Bovine adrenal gland processed to remove possible toxins and any hormone

Caffeine ingestion changed the physical/chemical characteristics of the urine, conforming to Dr. E. Revici's Dualistic Theory. Caffeine appears to be an anabolic agent, stimulating anabolic processes, according to this theory. The results showed a lower index for 6 of 8 subjects during the week of caffeine ingestion compared to the caffeine-free week. (The index also suggested an intake of anabolic substance(s) in the period prior to the study for most of the subjects.) According to Dr. Emanuel Revici, disease may have anabolic or catabolic character. The anabolic nature of caffeine suggests that this drug may be effective in catabolic disease states. However, because of its powerful physiological and psychological effects, the indiscriminate use of caffeine is not warranted. Excessive intake of caffeine is to be discouraged.

1. St. John's University, College of Pharmacy and Allied Health Professions, Jamaica New York 11439.

2. 132 E. 76th St. New York, N.Y. 10021.

3. Institute of Applied Biology 164 E. 91st St. New York, N.Y. 10028.

[This message has been edited by DiffyQue (edited 22 January 2005).]


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achey
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Interesting article Diffy...
The testing shows how to monitor aldosterone levels ina before and after situation, but not how to assess cortisol and DHEA levels..

Atleast that's how I read it.


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DiffyQue
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Achey,

Good Luck.


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ssmillik
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Every once in a while a topic gets my attention. I got Lyme in 2000, was treated for it and it (haha supposedly) went away. In 2003, I got another tick bite, and all the chronic Lyme systems came out. What's interesting is that at that same time, my adrenals failed. I took antibiotics for a couple of years, and I couldn't get better. Once I was diagnosed with Addison's disease (total adrenal failure) and started taking hydrocortisone, I was able to get better from the Lyme. I'm sure I still have Lyme somewhere in my body, but as long as I stay up on the hydrocortisone, my body can fight it.

For a long time, I've been looking for a link to Lyme and adrenal failure and couldn't find one. Now I see somebody else is having this problem.

Good luck with it. I feel fine now from both the adrenal failure and the Lyme.

Susan

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WildCondor
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Cortef is Hydrocortisone and it's bad news for all Lyme patients. You can use small doses like 2.5-5 mg while you are on antibiotics, but get off the steroids ASAP because they are a disaster.

Don't trust adrenal saliva tests either, get a blood test fasting. Your cortisol will return to normal after you kill the Lyme. You may need the small doses during treatment. It does NOT help your immune system, it actually hurts it by masking your symptoms and shutting off your own bodies adrenal production.

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notkrazybrian
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cortef, in small amounts if needed actually inhances the immune system. brian [Big Grin]
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daise
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Hi Achey,

Here is a very long post about hydrocortisone and adrenal insufficiency:


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=063563

Don't worry. Now that you know you have low cortisol, it can be treated by giving your adrenals a rest!

daise [Smile]

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ssmillik
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It's important to replace with steroid (Cortef or hydrocortisone) if your adrenals aren't producing them. Yes, they're a steroid, but you're not overdosing yourself. It's more urgent to take it because your health could be at risk if you have no cortisol in your body. You can't think in terms of the average person with Lyme (if there is such a thing). We shouldn't be afraid of the word "steroid" if your body truly needs it to function. If a doctor prescribes large-dose steroids, that's another thing.

Sometimes you have to take care of the adrenals in order for the Lyme to go away. I know. This happened to me, but then again, I have total adrenal failure (Addison's).

[ 26. March 2008, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: ssmillik ]

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daise
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Hi ssmillik,

Lyme plus Addison's? You've been very ill, indeed.

Yes--hydrocortisone, when it is called for, is absolutely necessary to fight any bad infection.

"Steroids" that you hear about are not bioidentical to what your body makes. Hydrocortisone is bioidentical.

If you are shown to need it, then, you need it.

Taking steroids, like prednisone (etc.) is a form of suicide, wreaking damage throughout the human body.

daise [Smile]

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bejoy
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I've had Lyme plus Addisons. Cortisol either too low will depress the immune system. No cortsol at all will kill you.

I don't think I could have gotten better without Cortisol replacement, because my adrenals were not giving me much to work with. I also took DHEA, testosterone, and progesterone.

I found that Cortisol reduces brain fog, testosterone reduces pain, and progesterone reduces lyme rage.

As I healed from lyme, my need for replacement went from 35 mg a day (a very high dose for supplementation) to 10 mg a day. Then it went back up to 20 when my daughter went into the hospital and I lost a week of sleep.

The body is supposed to make about 40 mg a day in a healthy person. A person under stress from illness needs more to function.

I prefer the saliva test to the blood test because you can test bioavailable levels throughout the day.

There are lots of posts on this topic if you are interested in doing a search.

A good list of supplements to support the adrenals:
Vit C
B complex
pantothenic acid
calcium
magnesium
fish oil
licorice
siberian eleuthero

You can look at www.adrenalfatigue.org

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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DoctorLuddite
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If TSH is low, that means your thyroid is functioning properly, unless it is too low, which means the thyroid is hyPER active. You need a workup from an endocrinologist, ie: an ACTH stim test, but If you got an AM ACTH level and it was low, I would say you have a pituitary cause of your Addisonian syndrome. If you do see an endocrinologist for this problem, have them also test you for 25 hydroxy and 1,25 dihydroxy vitamin D levels.
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ssmillik
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That's very interesting. My regular PCP took Vitamin D levels and they were on the low side, as well as Vitamin B12. I didn't know it was connected to Addison's...or is it connected to Lyme...or both?

Bejoy, I agree, I couldn't have gotten better without the hydrocortisone. I also take DHEA and Florinef.

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DoctorLuddite
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If both B12 and D levels were on the low side, there is an absorption problem in the intestine.
Vitamin D enhances gene transcription to enable cells of different types to elaborate whatever product it is their charge to produce. Things tend to run better when there is sufficient supply of D and no hindrance to its normal circulation. Its connection to Lyme is undeniable, but exactly why is controversial.

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pingpong
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up for further discussion

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pingpong

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pingpong
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ssmillik
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Dr. Luddite, I'm taking D3 and B12 supplements. Is this helpful or would I just not be absorbing it? Might I need B12 shots? I heard somewhere that some people with Addison's are at risk for developing pernicious anemia. Again, I don't know which caused what - the Addison's or Lyme.
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DoctorLuddite
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You would have to retest while on the supplements to answer that question, but the vitamin D part of the question is not that simple. If you retested 12 weeks after the first test but the first test was in March and the second in June, your level may just be higher because the sun is stronger, and we have a tendency to be out doors more when the weather is warm. Conversely if you tested at a normal level in September and then were low with a supplement on recheck in December, it could mean that you are not absorbing it, or that the dose is simply not high enough. B12 is simpler, you are either absorbing it or you are not and we don't get it from sun exposure. B12 injections are okay in theory, but I suspect anything that comes in a multi dose vial of having some preservative, and who nows how that can affect you. Any chronic GI symptoms could be a clue to a GI disturbance that could have malabsorption as a consequence.
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daise
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ssmillik,

I don't know what's causing your low B12.

B12 sublingual supplements don't work because to get what you need you'd have to take maybe 3,ooo mg (?) per day.

B12 shots are used when B12 levels are low. They are also used in high amounts to help heal neurological damage from Lyme.

I'd suggest B12 shots--especially methyl B12, if you can afford it. Ordered from College Pharmacy in Colorado Springs CO the cost is about $70 a month (injecting 1cc 7 days a week) including shipping.

I've heard of much cheaper prices in California.

If you can't afford methyl B12 shots, regular B12--cobalyman--is about $5.00 for ten shots at a local pharmacist. You get a prescription for the vial, then buy your needles and alcohol wipes separately.

It be $15.00 per month, if injected every day with 1cc, plus the cost of your needles. Call around for needle prices--maybe try an independant pharmacist. I pay 31 cents per needle.

Make sure neither type has preservative as some are allergic to it and report awful reactions. Without preservative it needs to be kept refrigerated--even the regular cobalyman (how on Earth do you spell that?)

daise [Smile]

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lou
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I wonder if anyone really knows the normal variations during the year of vit d, because it would seem that even in well people, they would have lower D levels in winter.

So, if lymies test low on the 25 hydroxy form and it is in the winter, will supplementation needed change depending on the season? Maybe they would have higher levels anyway in summer.

Furthermore, if you are supplementing anything orally because the gut is not absorbing enough, does it do any good? Won't the same problem occur with the supplemented element, unless you are not doing it orally.

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DoctorLuddite
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I suspect that some variation is expected, but the body has mechanisms of storing D and mobilizing those stores when adequate sun exposure is impossible.

I suggest also that if symptoms are lower in the summer months, then low level D supplements through fall winter and spring should be beneficial, but if the opposite is true, then the Marshall protocol should be looked at, at least after other pathologic conditions are ruled out, one such condition: Sarcoid.

I think Lyme patients are poorly served by the medical establishment because their symptoms and condition require a thought process that is not fostered by the quick care diagnose and adios model that modern docs try to adhere to to make their business solvent.

It's not that they (docs, rhymes with ducks)don't care, but they are constantly under pressure to generate income.

Don't get me wrong, there are some out there that are merely profiteering, but most don't get into it with the idea that they are going to processing patients like widgets.

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Rianna
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My lyme also shut my adrenal function totally off and I was diagnosd with addisons - an addisons diagnosis is made by having a synathcen ACTH stimulation test - mine was non resposive with no adrenal funtion. The unbeleivable thing is after 5 months of IV rocephin my adrenals started to work and I responded to an ACTH test and my adrenal function started to return, low levels but it came back.

My LLMD says he see's this a lot and beleives the spiro buried in to the adrenal and pituitary gland and with appropriate treatment the function often returns.

I now take Cortef in controlled dosages and have a day curve every few months to check my replacement dosage is set in the middle range - you must have cortisol to enable your body to heal and enhance your immune system although over dosing will supress your immune system - so really only replace with cortef what your body is not making.

Rianna

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pingpong
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up for further discussion

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lou
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Cold and lack of sunlight have caused effects that have been researched in Antarctica, because that is an extreme example. Thyroid found to be low functioning in people who overwinter, also vit d levels. Here is an interesting article:
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An Antarctic winter test for Vitamin D
Antarctic researchers-leaving Hobart today-the perfect test subjects for Vitamin D trial
Saturday 20 October 2007

As we slip, slop, slap, to reduce the risk of skin cancer, some of us are no longer getting enough Vitamin D and babies are again being born with rickets.

Are Vitamin D supplements the answer?

University of Melbourne researcher Sandra Iuliano has realised that the perfect way to answer this question is with the help of expeditioners from the Australian Antarctic Division and the long dark Antarctic winter.

Last winter she found that 90% of expeditioners were Vitamin D deficient after 12 months in Antarctica.

The next crop of expeditioners, leaving Australia today, will trial Vitamin D supplements to see if they can compensate for the lack of sunlight.

People need sunlight to generate Vitamin D, which is essential to build and maintain strong bones.

In fact, after 12 months in Antarctica, not only were 90% of the 130 expeditioners Iuliano studied vitamin D deficient but by the end of a winter of darkness in Antarctica, bone density at the hip was already up to 2% lower than when they arrived.

``People in southern parts of Australia experience similar changes in winter, just not as severely,'' says Iuliano.

``And if the bone lost each winter is not put back, then bone density is lowered and the risk of fractures increase.

``Today, in Australia, we are starting to see people suffering from Vitamin D deficiency, and babies are being born with rickets. To ensure this does not happen, we may need to encourage some people who may not be able to get out in the sun to take Vitamin D tablets before winter.''

There is very little vitamin D in food so, without enough sunlight, levels drop.

What constitutes enough sunlight, however, depends on your skin type, where you live, and the time of day you are out in the sun. Iuliano and her colleagues at the University of Melbourne are trying to work out the best strategies for gaining enough Vitamin D to avoid bone loss without increasing the risk of skin cancer from excessive exposure to the sun.

The expeditioners will each take one of three doses of Vitamin D - low, medium and high, to determine the necessary dose.

Sandra Iuliano is one of 16 early-career scientists presenting their research to the public for the first time thanks to Fresh Science, a national program sponsored by the Federal and Victorian Governments.

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sixgoofykids
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This discussion of Vitamin D reminds me of my visit a couple years ago to Mammoth Cave. Back in the 1840's a doctor did a tuberculosis study by opening a hospital in the Cave.

The experiment was a complete failure .... one of the reasons was a lack of sunlight. The surviving patients were apparently sent to Arizona for dry air and sunshine.

I don't know the relevance to our Disease, but sunshine is necessary for tb treatment.

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