I didn't see anything in the links for newbies.

Autoimmunity seems to be controversial becasue some doctors have said that chronic Lyme is simply an autoimmune illness which follows Lyme, and shouldn't b treated with antibiotics. These doctors call this illness "post-Lyme syndrome" and oppose long-term antibiotics. They feel the infection itself is gone after a reasonable period of antibiotic treatment (such as a month) and any further symtpoms are from autoimmune activity.

On the other hand, it is very clear that Lyme DOES trigger autoimmune illness in many of us. I and my children have had positive ANA's, anti-DNA's, skin biopsy and toher tests which prove that our immune systems are attacking our bodies.

LLMD's will say this is being caused by the Lyme, and that the labs and symptoms will resolve with antibiotic treatment over the long term.

Rheumatologists will say, no, this is proof of rheumatological, autoimmune illnesses sucha s lupus or rheumaotoid arthritis.

Noone really knows if the autoimmune illness triggered by Lyme persists after the infection is gone or not, at least I haven't found any certainty anywhere in my research. However, as predicted by LLMD's, our ANA's have improved with treatment.

Some rheumatologists are treating lupus and RA with aitibiotics anyway, with the idea that all of these illnesses are caused by some sort of bacteria, such as mycoplasma.

Finally, some LLMD's will test for HLA type, which is a genetic marker. Certain HLA-types show a tendency toward autoimmune reactions. People with these HLA types (see Liegner's piece) are more likely to have Lyme that is hard to treat, with the Lyme having triggered autoimmunity. I and two of my children have these HLA types as well.

One of my kids has type 1 diabetes as well as Lyme. Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmne illness and results fromt he body attacking its own insulin-producing cells in the pancreas. But until Lyme, I didn't know that I and my other daughter also have the same HLA type, and positive autoimmune labs as well.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

One of the things to remember, is that for many of the autoimmune disorders, the only thing conventional medicine has to offer is strong corticoid steroids (immunosupressants) that in my opinion have side effects not with the risk that if they ARE wrong. EVen short term use of prednesone can shunt the blood supply to the head of the femur (and a hip replacement will be in the future).

If there is still undetected (lyme or other) bacteria in the body causing the immune system to go awry, then supressing the immune system may make you feel better in the short run, but will be detrimental in the long run.

Hydroxychloroquine, ibuprofen, and certain abx (Mino and Doxy, amoxycillin and more) are all better choices for "post lyme syndrome" than any of the treatments they offer for Lupus (methotrexate, steroids, etc).

It's a hard choice,
especially because the Drs and researchers really don't know for sure..
there may be auto-immune activity (anitbodies against body tissues) but the TRIGGER is not known.. and if that trigger is sequestered undetected pathogens then supressants without abx will not be the right thing to do.

The theory is that these infections confuse the immune system essentially cascading out of control killing both the good and the bad thus creating a set of symptoms. The doctors working under this assumption include MS, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, ALS Lupus, Arthritis, Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia. In addition the also include Psychiatric Disorders, PDD, ADD/ADHD and Autism.

While there is still the raging debate over the mercury in the vaccinations that we received and autism. It could very well be possible that those vaccines altered our genetic makeup. Since were are in the first couple of generations that have been heavily vaccinated who really knows.

This theory which is very similar to the work Marshall has done does make alot of sense. While we might not all have Lyme, we all have a disfunctioning immune system in common and the key is to get that system back in balance.

I also agree that Lyme is a very difficult bacteria to destroy and that it could take years to do so with ongoing antibiotic treatment, but Lyme might not be the only problem as we all well know. We already know about the co-infections, but there could be alot more infections that we have inculding the viral component.

This group of doctors uses both antibiotics and antivirals as well as immune surpressors and supplements to help aid the body in rebalancing. They effectivly do what Marshal is doing as well, but they actually get the body to swith back and forth between TH1 and the TH2 response, this is the major difference that I can see between the two.

I would not be quick at all to dismiss this theory. I myself endeed up with TTP a verydangerous platelet disorder long before my diagnosos of Lyme. Nearly died from it. It was caused by antibodies being created for the platelets.

While low salt diets are believed to be "Mg sparing" (Na is more reactive than Mg) and Benicar blocks angiotensin II and Humeria/Remicade block TNF alpha (? Mg sparing)...

If the underlying problem is not corrected, I believe it will catch up to us...eventually. We need to get to the ROOT of the problem.

"CONCLUSIONS: These data demonstrate a relationship between angiotensin II and intracellular magnesium and calcium. In hypertension, angiotensin II-stimulated calcium responses may be related to simultaneously decreased intracellular magnesium concentrations."
PMID: 8390527

It appears:

Mg ++ charge levels low -> increase in Ca ++ charge (not good) -> stimulates angiotensin II (a protein, -- charge)-> TNF Alpha (a pro inflammatory cytokine, ++ charge)

``In severely Mg deficient rodents, it was found that there were greatly increased plasma concentrations of inflammatory cytokines.''
www.mgwater.com/clmd.shtml

Abx. make the system acidic...as does the Johns Hopkins ketogenic diet. This will further deplete the minerals.

1. Keep your gut healthy. 2. Restore the Mg level. 3. Shut down the glycolysis pathway via hydrogen delivered INTO the cells (acids + SUPPLEMENTAL Mg) as the Romanians did...and Valletta did - although Valletta used entirely natural substances to do the same.

So tthe only difference of opinion between LLMD's and rheumatologists was on antibiotics long-term, and there are rheumatologists out there who do antibiotics also.

The diagnosis of Lyme and autimmune illness can be simultaneous and makes sense simply because the Lyme triggers teh autoimmunity. On the other hand a person with a separate autoimmune problme (like my daughter) would also ahve more trouble recovering from Lyme, because autoimmune activity would increase.

We tryr to take the attitude that labels don't matter that much. treat the Lyme and the autoimmunity should improve, if not disappear. Long-term, the autooimmunity may totally clear, may linger after infection, or may exist entirely separately from the Lyme as a separate illness from the start. I think it will very with the individual.

If autoimmunity is an issue with your Lyme: Work with MD's to avoid harm (as with steroids) if at all possible. Take courses of action that cover as many possible causes/illnesses as possible (Plaquenil, PT exercise, supplements etc.). Be conscious of all possibilities (differential diagnoses) but keep it simple too. Be comfortable with mysteries for awhile, but pursue answers over time.

treepatrol pulled up the articles for me.
grace

Tell your niece my daughter now wears the pump in her bra, which makes for a lot more clothing choices...Let me know if she wants feedback on pump companies...

Combining diabetes and other health issues have made things difficult but I think this is the best year my daughter has had in a long time, and she's off abx too.

I'm just checking in here, but will take the time to read all of your responses.

Thanks for pointing me to this information.
Two of the bands I tested positive for are 31 and 34 and apparently they can cause an autoimmune reaction so I need to start delving into that info next.

Researchers continue to investigate the causes of reactive arthritis and study treatments for the condition. For example:

Can you explain more about bands 31 and 34? Do you mean that with these bands Lyme can cause autoimmunity, or that other autoimmune conditions can cross-react with these bands? I thought that these bands were Lyme specific and were a dead ringer for Lyme.

I guess I don't understand this whole auto-immune thing. I'm still freaked about MS... I just want to be able to count on having Lyme, I guess.

Yes, I believe 31 and 34 are Lyme specific and pretty definitive. I'm new to this whole autoimmune thing myself and that's what I'm here trying to figure out.

I called my child's LLMD when I got my test results back because I'm breastfeeding my other child and was concerned about her.

When he saw my results, he recommended some additional testing for me because he said that I had strong positives on bands 31 and 34 and they are autoimmune reactive.

When I asked for more details, I believe he said it could cause my immune system to attack itself.

The test would determine if I'm predisposed to this.

I'm scheduled to see an LLMD in April and will ask more questions, but I'd like to understand it myself.

Sorry, I can't offer more info for you, but I'm going to read what some of the others above have posted and try to understand it better.

Good luck!

There is no such thing as autoimmunity. Humans would not have evolved if our immune system was so stupid as to attack its own body without a reason.

The immune system is really attacking a bacterial infection (ie all the Lyme bacteria) that can live INSIDE our own cells, including our nerve and immune system cells.

This causes the appearance of the immune system attacking itself, when in reality it is destroying the "host" cells that the bacteria are living in.

For information about bacteria photographed living inside immune cells, see www.marshallprotocol.com.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsiebenh:
Warning: Unorthodox opinion ahead!

There is no such thing as autoimmunity. Humans would not have evolved if our immune system was so stupid as to attack its own body without a reason.

---

There ya go! The reactive arthritis posted earlier imo IS autoimmune. This does not mean people who have "autoimmune" are not going through a disease it just explains what they are going through more correctly. This opinion is gaining ground with many of the ID doc out there. Also Bb is just one of many pathogens that can cause this immune reation. Get rid of the pathogen the "auto-immune" disease goes away. The patient still has to deal with the destruction caused by this.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsiebenh:
Warning: Unorthodox opinion ahead!

There is no such thing as autoimmunity. Humans would not have evolved if our immune system was so stupid as to attack its own body without a reason.

The immune system is really attacking a bacterial infection (ie all the Lyme bacteria) that can live INSIDE our own cells, including our nerve and immune system cells.

This causes the appearance of the immune system attacking itself, when in reality it is destroying the "host" cells that the bacteria are living in.

---

Attachment of B. burgdorferi to primary murine lymphocytes. Scanning electron microscopy of coincubation mixtures containing B. burgdorferi and immunomagnetic bead-purified lymphocytes (L) showed that spirochetes (S) adhere to immobilized cells but not to the antibody-coated beads (B). Examination of paired stereomicrographs showed that attachment occurred at variable locations along the axis of the spirochete. However, adherence was observed most frequently in association with the terminal ends of filopodia extending from the surface of immobilized lymphocytes. Scale bar, 0.5 �m.

Intracellularity of Bb

The lab evidence of autoimmunity demonstrates attacks against the cell nuclei and/or DNA by antibodies.

I am not qualified to say whether what you describe also happens, but autoimmunity is very real.

If you think the huma body design could not go awry in this fashion, then cnsider allergies ad anaphyaxis, or even cancer, or virtually any illness really which involves the body overdoing something which might have been originally helpful in some way.

I'm sorry... I guess I don't really know what I'm asking. I was telling my mom about this, and bands 31 and 34, and she asked what implications that had for me. I told her that I wasn't sure... I have read that this can mean that my Lyme can be harder to treat, but could this also mean that I have something else going on? MS is my biggest worry... (even though all tests have been normal).

Thanks for all of your helpful info... Guess my Lyme brain is too fried to understand.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyddie:
I am not qualified to say whether what you describe also happens, but autoimmunity is very real.

---

We can't get autoimmune and immune response confused. The immune response is very powerfull and very real as you put it. It can also do a heck of alot of damage. In some cases it does more harm than the pathogen it is attacking. BUT take away the pathogen and the immune response also goes away. Allergies are a good example. Yes it's an immune response to something that is not dangerous but it's a valid if not pain in the butt response. (ie self/nonself). Take away the dog (allergy) and you go back to normal. On lyme, kill the Bb and you should go back to normal.

Molecular mimicry is an idea developed because they are starting to find that at the root of all autoimmune diseases are viruses,bacteria,fungus,etc, yet they still can't get rid of their 'autoimmune' ideas. Old ideas die hard. It also helps those who would rather not pay for persistant infections such as Lyme and write it off as some immune sytem gone wrong. Which just happens to save them a ton of bucks. lucky them.

I'm tired too! hope this makes sense

[This message has been edited by brentb (edited 03 March 2005).]

Iam a soldier in the union army and iam behind enemy lines deep in the south. I know I had better do something so, I shed my uniform and put on a confederate uniform just so no one will spot me.

I go about trying to meet others trapped behind lines while still trying to avoid detection by the confederates.

But I still end up in the enmies camp lucky for me Iam wearing thoses clothes of the enemy.

Still I have to fight my way back being attacked by confederates which I try to kill at the same time running.

Spirochetes put on and wear our protiens and dna and actually incorperate them into there selves. Thus the body is attaking itself because antibodies are tasting these bacteria and dezigning there attacks.

Also macrophages are attacking at the same time there dna is attempting to over wright the bacteria's dna its also being attacked inside by bacteria without cell walls going inside them then absorbing there dna and assuming its characteristics.

A couple of comments. I think we should wait for DJP to ak her doctor about the bands 31 and 34 and autoimmunty. I think there might be some misunderstanding here.

There are genetic markers that can be tested for tendency toward autommunity (also mentioned in the NJ study). These are HLA types, and many LLMD's will test these for you. Maybe this is what your doctor was referring to?

There are labs that will tell you if you are having autoimmune activity. These include ANA (anti-nuclear antibody), DS anti-DNA, rheumatoid factor, skin biopsy and others.

Only a small proportion of people with Lyme have these genetic markers or the positive labs. If you are in this group, it is true that Lyme might be harder to treat. But it is also true that Lyme treatment greatly improves or even gets rid of the positive labs (and the autoimmune problem).

Autoimmune activity is not exactly the same thing as an over-revved immune system. Again, the NJ article explains this a little.

Lyme does not cause (type 1)diabetes, but the difficulty in treating some people's Lyme may arise from the same genetic tendency toward autoimmunity. But is is a different autoimmune reaction that causes this diabetes. Type 2 is not an autoimmune disorder, but type 1 is.

It is unclear to me and I have not been able to find any certain answers about whether autoimmune illness goes away once Lyme is eradicated. The lab evidence (reduced ANA's) seems to say yes. But I think that people with autoimmune illness with Lyme may need to stay on lifelong antibiotics, just as strep sufferers do. I won't know this, nor will anyone else, for many years. After 4 years of antibiotics myself, I am now considering "maintenance" or preventative meds as w/strep.

Again, please read any and all posts on the NJ study. I posted one question about whether this study supports the idea that anitbiotics are not needed, since the illness is portrayed as autoimmune, or if it supports the idea of long-term abx, since a comparison is made w/strep and rheumatic fever. This study could be seen as supporting Steere et al or not...

I've been checking in on and reading all the discussions, but need to print them out to spend the time reading them. I seem to have a hard time reading and retaining the information, so I need to keep re-reading it.

This is something I will discuss with my LLMD, but I find it's helpful to understand some of the different point of views so I can ask more "informed" questions.

One of the things I've learned from this whole Lyme experience is that there are many different point of views and even the doctors that are LLMD's have different opinions on some topics.

In the past, I've taken what doctors have said at face value, now I've learned to question more. By asking this question here, I'll be able to have better discussion when I finally get to see the LLMD.

skrwolf, I sent you an email. I don't if it helped or just made it clear as mud I think I'm in the same boat as you right now.

At this point, I'm just trying to understand the different issues to form an opinion of my own. I will let you all know what my LLMD's opinion is on the topic.

Thanks again!

Severe Lyme disease may lead to other ills, UMDNJ study finds

Tuesday, March 01, 2005

BY ANGELA STEWART
Star-Ledger Staff

People who suffer from a prolonged, more severe form of Lyme disease
also
may be prone to developing autoimmune illnesses such as arthritis and
heart
disease, a new study shows.

Researchers at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey
in
Newark made the discovery in a laboratory study of mice, where they
found
genetic similarities between the bacteria that cause Lyme and other
bacteria
known to trigger various autoimmune diseases.

"These mice had a worse (Lyme) disease, much more chronic and it
lasted for
a long time," said Elizabeth Raveche, an immunologist at the UMDNJ-New
Jersey Medical School and principal investigator for the study. "That
gives
some insight as to what happens in humans, as not everyone who gets
Lyme
ends up with a lifelong problem, but some individuals do."

The research appears in the latest issue of the Journal of Clinical
Microbiology.

Lyme disease, caused by the bacteria Borrelia burgdorferi and
transmitted by
a tick bite, peaks in the spring and summer months. It can affect the
skin,
nervous system, joints and heart. Individuals can develop a bull's
eye rash
surrounding the site of the tick bite.

In the study, Raveche and her colleague, Steven Schutzer, another
UMDNJ
immunologist, found that the Osp-A protein of the Lyme bacteria shared
molecular similarities with another protein, Streptococcus pyogenes
M, known
to cause autoimmune diseases, including rheumatic heart disease and
arthritis.

According to Raveche, in certain individuals with Lyme, antibodies
produced
to fight the condition also can cross-react with one's own tissues
and cause
prolonged illness in people genetically predisposed to autoimmune
disease.

"All the mice had a genetically programmed immune defect leading them
to
produce antibodies capable of reacting with the (Lyme) bacteria as
well as
their own tissues, resulting in arthritis," she said.

"This may show some of the reasons why people react differently and
why Lyme
causes such a chronic illness in some people and mild disease in
others,"
said Elizabeth Chalom, pediatric rheumatologist on staff at Saint
Barnabas
Medical Center in Livingston,.

Chalom said the same pattern is true in the many people who develop
strep
throat, with only a few of those individuals going on to develop acute
rheumatic fever, which is a bacterial joint infection.

"The antibodies their body makes to fight the strep can cross-react
and
cause arthritis," she said.

Raveche said a second study is underway that will attempt to further
identify a target gene that could interfere with the cross-reaction
process
so that severe Lyme symptoms won't develop in people prone to
autoimmune
illnesses.

go to this link which contains articles such as the one below. RULE out an infection agent before giving up and saying it's the autoimmune's problem.
http://www.roadback.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/education.display/display_id/130.html

"If the infectious hypothesis proves to be correct the treatment of RA will need to be completely re-vised, and the consequences for the pharmaceutical industry will be enormous. It could become unethical to use steroids, or agents which block prostaglandin synthesis, as we cannot be sure they do not promote proliferation of the organism, and so in the long term lead to more severe disease. Instead we will need to devise antibiotic regimens and immunotherapeutic protocols." (1993-Annals of Rheumatic Diseases-England)4

The infectious theory for rheumatic disease is one of those old ideas whose time has come again. Up until the 1940s, it was taken for granted that most illnesses were caused by some kind of bug - although before electron microscopes, many germs had never been seen clearly enough to give them a name, and some, such as viruses, had not been seen at all. That difficulty in isolating and identifying a specific probable cause is one reason the infectious theory for rheumatic disease went out of vogue for several decades.

Another reason was the breakthrough in cortisone, a potent anti-inflammatory that was mistakenly thought to have the same role in rheumatic (inflammatory) disease as insulin has in diabetes. By the time it became obvious this was not the case - and that in heavy doses, cortisone could be extremely dangerous - the whole sub-specialty of rheumatology was firmly seated on the wrong horse, and the mistake had grown into an institutional tradition.

Today it is widely accepted that bacteria, mycoplasmas and viruses, all possibly aided and abetted by a genetic predisposition, are prime causative suspects in rheumatoid arthritis, scleroderma, lupus, fibromyalgia and related diseases of the connective tissue. In fact, the so-called New Germ Theory is finding support in a far wider medical arena, from Alzheimer's disease to MS, and from ulcers to asthma to cancer. And in every case, no matter how spectacular the evidence or how revolutionary the outcome, the initial response to this theory and related treatment for an infectious cause is strong resistance from an institution which sees as dangerous any challenge to the status quo.

The most likely infectious cause of most forms of rheumatic disease is a class of small organisms about halfway in size between a bacterium and a virus. Now called mycoplasmas, they were first isolated from arthritic joint fluid by Dr. Thomas McPherson Brown at the Rockefeller Institute more than 60 years ago. Assisted in that early work by polio pioneer Albert Sabin, Brown devoted the next half-century to research in the infectious etiology of rheumatic disease, and the use of safe, inexpensive antibiotic therapy for its control. Dr. Brown was the author, with Henry Scammell, of The Road Back, which first brought the case to the general public, and later gave the Foundation its name.

Many of these "mystery" diseases, like MS, Lyme, arthritis, psoriasis, that have no known cause or cure, are actually the same disease.

They just present themselves differently in different people, depending upon genetic disposition, immune system response, environmental factors, etc. They appear different because they attack different body systems, but in reality they are the same disease.