I think you are correct in questioning this matter. The Bowen test is measuring flourescent antibody staining against the Bb organism. (In other words it detects actual antigen/organism). So, if you're positive at any dilution it means that the Bb organism is present. I think the matter for interpetation is what is the clinical situation of the person. Low level dilutions are often asymptomatic or have vague "everyday" aches, dermatitis, and a little fatigue. Higher dilutions, especially over 1:16 may be associated with more severe symptoms like chronic arthritis, fibromyalgia, and even cardiovascular and neurologolic symptoms.

So, I think you are correct in questioning the answer you received. This is just my opinion, and of course with Lyme Syndrome disease, there are many opinions.

Sincerely,
Ron Manzanero, MD
Austin, TX

quote:

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Originally posted by andytap:
my results from bowen's test came up positive with the serial dilution 1:8. we called a LLMD and she felt that i was not really positive. i was wondering what everyone's serial dilusions were and if you think i should investigate further. wouldnt a positive result mean i am positive? my symptoms are extreme fatigue and muscle/joint pain but that is it. i have gone to summer camp all my life, and chances of getting a tick bite would be high. i am only 18 years old and this week have been tested for every other single thing. everything else is normal. any help would be appreciated. thanks!

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I hope you get to the bottom of your fatigue and pain. Also, ask your doctor what you can do for symptom relief - ie. vitamins, ibuprofen etc.

Take care!

quote:

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Originally posted by andytap:
my results from bowen's test came up positive with the serial dilution 1:8. we called a LLMD and she felt that i was not really positive.

i was wondering what everyone's serial dilusions were and if you think i should investigate further.

wouldnt a positive result mean i am positive?

my symptoms are extreme fatigue and muscle/joint pain but that is it.

i have gone to summer camp all my life, and chances of getting a tick bite would be high.

i am only 18 years old and this week have been tested for every other single thing. everything else is normal. any help would be appreciated. thanks!

---

Andy and Dr. Ron,

for your info, to help all of us late-stage lymies out, please shorten your paragraphs to 6-8 lines of text only and then double space. Our brain fog makes it so we can't comprehend long paragraphs. Thanks for understanding.

You can also EDIT your post/replies any time except for the TOPIC line; it stays as is and we try to be as specific as possible since this is an extremely active board of 4 full screens of posts daily.

Welcome to this 24/7 support group board!

Here's TREEPATROL's and tincup's combination newbie links. http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/029917.html

Print off the links then check them off as you read as you could spend several months reading all of this.

print & read Dr. Barrascono's info first; you will come back to this often.

Also, see Cheryl's extensive web sites on: LD DIAGNOSIS, SYMPTOMS, & TREATMENT ... wonderful!
http://www.lymeinfo.net/lymediseasetreatment.html

The WESTERN BLOT IGM & IGG blood test nos. 189 and 188, are the only accurate tests for LD. They should only be sent to these 2 USA's Lyme testing labs:

IGENEX LAB:
797 San Antonio Road
Palo Alto, CA 94303
1.800.832.3200.

(If the early test, called IGM, is negative; the later test IGG is NOT done!)
Please see their web site: www.igenex.com for their current prices and

to print their REQUIRED form, which MUST be signed by the doctor, DIAGNOSIS CODE NO. COMPLETED!; Medicare's UPIN no., and your FROZEN blood taken EARLY in the week so it doesn't sit in post offices!

Write on their forms you want results FAXED to their drs. Office; snail mail paper copy so it's not lost like mine was!

NON-Medicare patients must PREPAY by check or credit card for the tests since they do NOT handle insurance papers.
Medicare patients do NOT have to prepay!

OTHER LAB: MDL from NJ, www.mdl.net
see their site; they too require their own form. NO prices are listed; you must call their 800 no.

Lyme should be diagnosed clinically using medical history in addition with the Western Blot blood tests as no currently available test is definitive in ruling-in or ruling-out infection with Ld pathogens, or whether these infections are responsible for the patient's symptoms.

NOTE: Please send a copy of your health insurance card to YOUR insurance comany (mine is Wellmark BC/BS, Iowa) for them to submit to BLUE CARD (handles other states) them to FORWARD to California's Blue Shield health insurance company since they will require that, DRS. Diagnosis Code No., and which date of service is correct (IGX has 3 different dates on their paid receipts....use the DATE OF ACTIVITY!).

FYI - mine was returned to me after 6 wks. After submitting; dr./blood lab failed to show DRS. DIAGNOSIS CODE NO. on their form! It went to 7 people to be returned to me! Disgusting!

Betty G, Iowa

My only symptom was extreme fatigue. It turns out I could mentally "push" the pain away during the day--but at sleep I didn't have that mental capability.

I got a sleep test and I was waking up 233 times a night--half from pain the other half from sinus. Twice because I'm fat.

I was getting no REM and really, really thought I was going to die I was so tired.

They can tell what is waking you up from your Alpha waves.

Get a sleep test and also take some antibiotics and see if they make you sick in a week to 10 days. I also didn't understand that part to begin with--I thought I would immediately get sick--but it took over a week.

I also had thyroid disease and active epstein barr. Get those things checked too--Lyme Disease hits a lot of different things in the body.

My Bowen Lyme titer level was 1:32. I have only neurological symptoms. No pains. No skin problems.

That is after 8 months of antibiotics. I wonder what it was 8 months ago?

I took the Bowen test for two reasons.

1. To track the progress of the Lyme treatment program I'm on.

2. To test for Babesia (they detect all strains - only test around that does that.)

Re (1), I plan to redo the Bowen test in about 6 months to see how much I have improved in terms of the Lyme titer level. Hopefully it will have gone down.

One thing I should let you know about is that it appears that the Bowen test only detects the socalled cyst form (also called the L-form or spheroplast form) of the Borrelia bacteria.

It does not detect Bb in it's spirochete form.

I'm not sure what this mean either, but it's likely that most of the Bb floating around in our blood is indeed in the cyst form, as this explains why it is so difficult for many of us to get a positive WB or PCR.

I think your comments below can open some great
discussion about the nature of microorganisms.

Dr. Lyda Matteman who used to be head of Wayne State
Dept of Microbiology confirmed that bacteria can shed
their outer cell wall and live with just their inner cell
membrane. (This is what the Bowen test is looking for.)

The conventional appearance of bacteria occur when they
are in stable environments; however, when they are
stressed they may become cell wall defecient (CWD) and
then need to live within a host cell. In this CWD "pleo-
morphic" state they cannot be cultured in the typical
culture mediums, nor do they provoke an immune
response to trigger a "+" Elisa or Western Blot.

The taking out of blood for the Bowen test apparently
will trigger a CWD state. To find the corkscrew
spirochete form you need to do a fresh blood analysis on a dark field microscope.

Dr. Ron
(BTW, it may take a while to get the double spacing format
down.)

One thing I should let you know about is that it appears that the Bowen test only detects the socalled cyst form (also called the L-form or spheroplast form) of the Borrelia bacteria.

It does not detect Bb in it's spirochete form.

I'm not sure what this mean either, but it's likely that most of the Bb floating around in our blood is indeed in the cyst form, as this explains why it is so difficult for many of us to get a positive WB or PCR.

He came back clear.

quote:

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Originally posted by ivebeentricked:
You have to remember though that everyone who sends blood into Bowen comes back positive...I don't think a positive test from bowen, especially one with a dilution that low, justifies heavy abx therapy withought some further testing being done. Don't rule it out, and if you are sick and believe you have lyme, the test shouldn't matter anyway. I am just saying that you can't simply rely on that test to come to a conclusion.

---

His first symptoms were muscle problems - pulling pain in the triceps, then pulling pain in the legs - (along with unexplained fatigue and headaches -but he never really told the first doctors we saw of the headaches or fatigue.) It was the endless muscle pain!

It was just close to 19 months ago that he first saw a llmd. (Saw probably 11 doctors or more before a pain specialist suggested we seek a llmd).

So many more symptoms developed over the years.

He has never tested positive. (Our primary care physician did bloodwork and that included a lyme test 6 months after symptoms. He was a junior in high school. (Since it came back negative we/doctors never considered it or knew of its horrors and deceptions.)

Still he does not test positive for lyme and coinfections but....

His llmd finally put him on mepron at Xmas ( a clinical diagnosis of babesiosis). (I kept pushing for that based on the fatigue and headaches and trying artemisinin which caused his symptoms to flare). and......

I kept reading these posts to get information.

This is the best test around. We only use this method of testing. You actually see what is in your blood with the pictures.

It is great that you have no co-infections.

Take a course of treatment and see if this helps. My count went down to 1:4 but went back up again. You seem to be holding your own but should take some treatment. My husband has the 1:128 count. His count only came down once. We have to go back for more testing this month.

How frequently do you retest at Bowen?

What does a titer level of 1:128 really mean?

I assume it has something to do with the concentration of bugs in a milliliter of blood or something?

For example, does it mean that there are 128 critters in 1 ml blood?

Is it that simple? Or am I nuts?

1:2 means that the sample is diluted once, and that they can still find the bacteria. If your dilution in 1:32, then they diluted 5 times (2 times 2 times 2 times 2 times 2)...

I am ill but not that ill compared to some people, able to hold down a part time job. My llmd was a bit surprised i was still functioning the way i am with this dilution.

My nieces just got tested at Bowen, too - both came back at 1:32...they also have gone to summer camp in PA for a few years now. One is 17, the other is 14.

I would talk to your Dr about trying abx to see if they make a difference in your fatigue/joint pain at all. But keep in mind that you'll need a good probiotic along for the ride to fend off yeast.

Mamma,
How frequently do you retest at Bowen?

Michael

My husband has the highest count of 1:128 and just got off of an IV and back on bicillin shots along with Ketek. He has to have another Bowen test before he goes back to our ID doc. We usually get the test every 6 months. The doctor wants the testing done more often to see how the antibiotics have worked or are working.