Anyway, what would you think this means.

Me Range
IgG 901 700-1600
IgA 192 70-400
IgM 18 40-230 These were way low

perhaps follow up with non-alt doc is warrented to re-test/figure out if this is an aberant test result or something real that needs attention

Immunoglobulins
Biochemistry I. Immunoglobulins. Immunoglobulin Structure. Igg Lt C. Hv C. Var R. Hpr Var. Fab Fc Fv Immunoglobulin fold. Immunoglobulin disulfide bonds. Antibody-Hapten Interactions ... Immunoglobulins contain four chains, two light chains, two heavy chains ...stingray.bio.cmu.edu/~rule/bc1/ig/ig.htm - 21k - Cached - More from this site

Immunoglobulins
... Structural Classification of Proteins (SCOP), Immunoglobulins. Texas A & M University, Antibody Production, Regulation ... Further Reading. Immunoglobulins (Chapter 4) in R ...bcs.whfreeman.com/immunology5e/content/anm/kb06an01.htm - 3k - Cached - More from this site

Labs- immunoglobulins
... Immunoglobulins - a large family of proteins, also known as antibodies, that protect the ... "Antibody proteins are often called immunoglobulins ( Ig). All immunoglobulin molecules have ...www.lymphomation.org/tests-immunoglobulins.htm - 26k - Cached - More from this site

NDI Terminology - immunoglobulins
... tissue fluids, also known as antibodies. Immunoglobulins are produced by cells of the immune system ... that bear the antigens. Immunoglobulins also play a central role in allergies ...www.ndif.org/Terms/immunoglobulins.html - 5k - Cached - More from this site

Immunoglobulins
An immunoglobulins test is done to measure the level of immunoglobulins, also known as antibodies , ...my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/hw41342.asp?... - 56k - Cached - More from this site

yours seem to be functioning at a normal level, but in order to get to a clear picture you have to test for IgG 1,2,3 & 4. those are subsets.

you just tested the overall immunoglobulin levels which can be deceiving, but given your overall was well in range i would doubt the subsets would be low.

i don't know anything about interpreting igM. have to ask your doctor.

you could also do further testing to check your t cell mitogen lymphocyctes.

borrelia infection often downregulates the t cell mitogen lymphocytes, studies have shown this. but it is not usually tested for.

the low t cell mitogen counts are not necessarily indicative of lyme infection and there is no medication i know of to fix it.

that is except for getting your infection bacterial load down through antibiotics.

IgM Immunoiglobulins are the "first line" defense antibidies.

Have you ever had them tested before
(ie: before abx, and during at an earlier time?)

My son's were hanging low pre-treatment, with a long time undiagnosed infection of Lyme and co-infections, however..shortly after he started abx, they crashed to the lowest level read on tests..
< 5. Not good.

I guess it maybe could be that the abx was taking on most of the battle, so the immune system was taking a break??
I don't know.

Mine also dropped, tho not as dramatically..
were hangin low when I first got LD, then..
dropped ever so slowly on abx.

My LLD's don't know if they tend to go up after treatment..becuz noone's testing it then.

What's confusing to me is that some patients have low IgM, with normal IgG..and vice verse.

Perhaps you should think about immune support with your regimen (that would be safe and effective, sort of along the lines of the mushrooms, or Transfer factor, or a really good Chinese Doc/herbologist? I wouldn't begin to know what would be a good option, just an example there..)

Zip..is "t-cell mitogen lymphocytes" testing super specialized?
or is this rather accessible as far as tests go..?

Mo

But here goes

First, this is what I do to pay the bills(PharmD) and due to legalities--I can't give out full blown information with regards to IVIG and what I am reading here: So, as they say " I'm not a MD, and I don't play one on TV", though it may have been a much more renumerable path.

Zip's right, get the IgG subclasses checked out, and also, time and insurance permitting---do a whole immune status panel--T-cells, ratios, ect. A LLMD should be able to order this

If all/most/any tests out abnormal--seek a referal to an immunilogist--if possiable

They will then go even further with testing, and test for antibody production with vaccine challenges, ect.

Yes, borrelia( though it's more likely a sign of Babesia, or erlichia, or bartonella) can cause significant immune supression---but that should start to clear up once the infection is somewhat under control

Celiac disease can also cause IgG subclass deficienties--usually all other antibody classes will be normal

So can Toxicplasmosis--this is documented over and over again

ABX can lower trough levels also---but this is usually transient--will return to normal once the offending ABX is removed( IV ABX """CAN"" I said, ***Can*** , be a culput here---that means can, not always)

Mo: I may be able to answer that question for you:

Yes, IgM mounts( elavated levels) early in infection--it is the first line of defense--and it's the first line through out the infectious process(at least with lyme--since the innate/ and aquired immune system **Both** fail freguently at reconizing the pathogen)

So, I am not surprised by low IgM, normal IgG in some borrelia patients---since the IgM is converted to IgG----and per two ID LLMDS' that I have seen----lyme(esp. chronic lyme) burns off IgG like the space shuttle burns off jet fuel--so it's the furnace that having a tough time keeping up here( IgM)

! LOL!

Where it can get confusing is, as you mentioned in the case of elavated IgM's and low IgG's, you would tend to believe that the IgM is doing it's intented job by creating an abundance of antibodies---and the IgG is being used in fighting the pathogen--henceforth depleted IgG levels.

It doesn't work that way

If the IgM is mounting that powerful of an "attack", the IgG's would be elavated also---this is a normal response to infection

There is a bit of a genetic "clitch" going on when IgM are high, and the IgG's are way, way low

This is where I stop, I won't go any further

Why in heck would you stop there?!

I was actually following you..

*sigh*

Thanks for the link, tho.

So..a low IgM 'makes sence'..in the sceme of things..but is a bad idea to use
'immune support' (not stimulant)
that may help? I would guess that'd be OK.
(in the case of low IgM)

I'll have to look up more on all, but many thanks for the explaination of Immunoglobulins in infection.

Mo

It took about 2 years after I started abx for my body to mount a substantial IgG response to lyme proteins, and that was concurrent to being asymptomatic. Coincidence? maybe, maybe not.

Barb

Yankee wrote in part:
There is a bit of a genetic "clitch" going on when IgM are high, and the IgG's are way, way low

This is where I stop, I won't go any further

Anyway a good site about the immune system, it's abnormalities, normalities, and information about all sorts of antibodies www.primaryimmune.org

In a rush now, but I just did a search in Medical section on the topic to partly explain the different levels of antibodies in lyme,at least, and involves teh "Igm-to-IgG switch," or lack there of ?

Search term "switch" turned up a lot of stuff w/rt "igm-to-igg switch" .

pq

Yankee can tou email me?

Mo: The only reason I stopped there is with regards to mentioning anything along the lines of genetics ( not to you, but possiably to others--you are similar to me with regards to this sort of topic matter---read the information--research it for yourself, and draw your own conclusions)

That can be a touchy word in Lyme Land( Genetics)

But I have never understood why....since the average person has aquired about 250 genetic mutations by age 40( that factoid comes from what is considered to be one of the top immunilogist/ genetic researchers in the USA )----just by living daily life, and that does not mean that you will not live a long and happy life.

Can infectious agents cause genetic mutations?? Well, I do not dare to get into a two yr long debate about that on Lymenet---since you can research this yourself and come up with your own conclusions.

But my guess is, yes--just look at toxicplasmosis, and the developing fetus, and the considerable proof of exposure to T. Gondii, and sequencial development of CVID--Common Variable immune deficienty---which DID NOT correct it's self once the infectious pathogen was treated correctly.
And to the best of current knowledge--they are able to contain/cure most cases of T. Gondii

And, """NO""" I am not saying everyone who has Borrelia/TBD's and some low IgG subclasses has some sort of genetic mutation----nor am I stating that these patients are likely to ""Develop"" any such problems

What I "AM" saying is that yes, the chronic infections can rack the immune system--but it should bounce back with correct treatment( Yes, correct treatment can be two yrs or longer)

"IF"" you are unable to gain any ground despite 10+ yrs of heavy ABX---""AND"" you are found to be lacking in one or more areas of the immune system-----you may want to look at it from another angle......

You may have been dealing with a sub-clinical immune deficientcy """"Before"""" contacting the TBD's and all it's co-infectious buddies that you picked up along the way (Opportunistic infections)

IF THIS IS TRUE FOR SOME( I DID NOT SAY""ALL"")--It very well could explain the fact that regardless of yrs of correct treatment, yrs of complete patient compilance---some people never get better--or even regain part of the functioning that they lost due to this disease---while others do--once they start treatment

( Disclaimer: My defination of Improvement is: Seeing results even in late stage lyme with the correct treatment protocol--This does not always mean complete cure---but, as I stated "results". A familiar example of this would be: We have all read about the misdiagnosed MS---wheel chair bound patient who starts agressive IV ABX--and sees pretty decent improvement of neurological syptoms---and is now able to walk with the help of only a cain) This is most likely seen as a miracle to this patient. And I did not state that this patient is cured---but has had significant improvement with the protocol

BPeck: Could this be the missing link( one of a few) as to why some people are more prone to chronic infections with what are considered non-threatening opportunistic pathogens( meaning that most immune competent people have no problem dealing with these sort of infections) like Mycoplasma P., CMV, HHV-6, EBV, ect.

And I personally do not believe that there are high levels( some, but not the norm) of cross-reactions to viral pathogens and borrelia testing, or cross-reaction to mycoplasmas and borrelia testing---that's the ducks trying to **write-off** the severity of this situation--since everyone has some level of viral agents/mycoplasmas in the body

What I am describing is a B-Cell immunity problem ( I do buy into the chronicinicity of borrelia infection in the bone marrow--but that would be an aquired mutation--No?)

This would also fit with the fact that so many lyme patients state that they have been sickly all their lives----and that many of their family memebers have chronic health problems---and not just the immediate family members living/has been previously living, under the same roof . This can be seen in uncles and aunts, cousins, and grandkids--all extended family members.

Maybe not everyone in the above situation recieves maternal/paternal transmission of the pathogen( gestational transfer)

Possiably some recieve the genetics that make them highly susceptible to this certain pathogen--so they contact the pathogen thru exposure to ill family members, or contact with the pathogen in nature( thru vector transmission) and become ill.

--Another example of this theory would be Leprosy----contagious only to those that are genetically subseptable to this pathogen

To those who noted that testing of immune status prior to the current problem would be helpful with regards as to the pre=morbid condition of the innate immune system

That would be great--but most likely not the case--- Why would a doctor run an immune status panel if there had been no previous problems noted with chronic infections---unless you have suffered from chronic sinus infections, or chronic servere cases of pnuemoniae, esp. the mycoplasma genre

There are patients who have suffered from chronic infections, and until they researched the current information for themshelves---did not realize the problem was with the status of the immune system.

HWLatin: Robi just listed his testing--curious to others' experinces

When they run a whole panel, it's alot more that two or three tests---and it is usually followed up by vaccine challenges---and if that is positive--genetic testing may be pursued

FYI: I have a genetic immune deficientcy----definate, definative---cut and dry mutation on the short leg of the X chromsome--and I had to fight lyme and other TBD's , opporuntistic infections for yrs prior to finding this information out

Once I started treatment for the immune deficientcy----I saw almost complete remission of the diseases---I do still tire easily--but,all other symptoms gone

I'm back working full-time, and all testing is negative---and I'm the gal who always got LabCorp CDC positives prior to the IVIG--so there wasn't much dis-belief on the part of my doctors' as to my correct DX.

I just want persons' with lyme and abnormal immune status to be aware of these issues, and follow up with addditional testing if needed--to see if they are dealing with more than immune surpression due to chronic illness

10=15% of the general population has some sort of immune malfunction-----and unless I was asleep during stats class---lyme patients are a population subset---which means it could happen in this group too!!( I do hope not...misery doesn't always enjoy company)

PQ: I've seen some research regarding IgM/IgG conversion--yep, can and does happen in lyme----but the levels would most likely only be ""slightly affected"" ( IgM high/IgG subclass 1 and 3 affected--most insurances would not cover IVIG at this small variation of levels--and would suggest screening for secondary causes--like, you got it!!!---infections)

---I'm talking about the folks who test out High enough in IgM/low enough in IgG-- that any insurance company(HMO'S, ect.) would pay for IVIG----since we are talkin levels 40% below the mean average( they know it's a faulty switch, or clitch here)

If you find any interesting medicial abstracts--by all means--post it

I'm not trying to be an expert here---I could be watching t.v right now, or talking on the phone

But I've lived thru this---and like anyone esle with lyme who may have found relief(GIGI, others)--we just want to throw it out on the table and see if it can help anyone esle

All the immune stimulants, Transfer Factors, ect would not help me in the slightest--I've been there, done that ( may work for others', this is just my story)

Though I am very interested in Iscador--have been talking to the Rudolph Steiner clinics in Germany--they don't believe that it helps in my situation--but could be used as a adjuct if anything esle was to raise it's ugly head--like cancer( Immune deficient patients are at higher risk of certain types of cancer, and not the types that borrelia has been linked to)

Just trying to help the brainstorming

[This message has been edited by yankee in black (edited 12 April 2005).]

Thank you. I'm only on my first read through, a bit bleary eyed..
just got back a while ago from Doc J, the LL Ped in CT..who checks in on these panels in my son frequently, and I wrapped with him on
this subject.

Just pulling this up so I might remember to get back to it tomorrow...

I agree with everything you have said. My first major illnes was TTP, a blood disorder. Shortly after that we saw issues with T-Cell and B-Cell production. IgG and IgA and the sub-classes were all low.

Now I went through 60 days of plasma exchange to fend off the TTP, received the equivilant of 10,000 pints of blood, because it was pooled plasma. Had it been ITP I would have done IVIG instead and an interesting side note, but in either case Prednisone would and was used.

My younger son which is mine biologically also has IgG and IgA deficencies, and they have worsend over time. I actually had his immune function tests run after my TTP, because I was worried about him with the symptoms that he was having. It was another three years before I was diagnosed with Lyme then another 6 months for him.

Since then both of our immune systems have worsened. Now my older son which is not mine biologically has a much better immune system, even with the Lyme tests he is more positive on the IgG side than the IgM side. He also does not seem to have as bad a case as us.

With all of this early onset of Alzheimer's runs on my side of the family another interesting fact. I also have that marker. Have not even thought about testing my son and I dont think I will even deal with that at the moment.

I feel that I am playing a game of beat the clock. I am hoping that treating the Lyme then getting the immune system back healthy again will allow me to change my destiny when it comes to Alzheimers.

I do think we are playing with a moving target. Just when we think we understand the immune system, new discoveries change all the theories. Look at those kids in England that received a new Gene therapy and all developed cancer.

This is going to be a long and winding road that could take many more years of research and development before any real cures appear. I do agree that there are things out there that for the most part are tested enough and will offer us relief.

But the real disturbing thought I have is that even if we get back to point A, what guaranties do we have that we will not get infected or exposed again, after all these diseases and toxins do not exist or not that big of a problem at least that is what our government says.

April 12, 2005

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Antibodies that attack the protein believed
responsible for Alzheimer's disease may offer a new way to treat the
brain-destroying illness, U.S. researchers reported on Tuesday.

The infusion of antibodies seemed to be safe and may have delayed or
even halted progression of the fatal disease in Alzheimer patients,
the researchers said.

But the trial of immunoglobulin, or IVIg, therapy was done in just
eight patients and it is too early to know much about its promise,
the team at New York-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical
Center cautioned.

"If these results are confirmed in larger, controlled trials, we
might have a safe Alzheimer's treatment capable of clearing the
amyloid protein away," Dr. Marc Weksler, who helped lead the study,
said in a statement.

In the Phase I safety trial, eight Alzheimer's patients were treated
with IVIg for six months and then tested for decline in their mental
function.

Cognitive function stopped worsening in seven patients tested so far
and has improved in six, the researchers told a meeting of the
American Academy of Neurology in Miami.

The antibodies target beta-amyloid, a protein that is a key feature
of the brain-clogging plaques and tangles that characterize
Alzheimer's. It seems to kill nearby brain cells, robbing patients
of memories and eventually of all ability to function and care for
themselves.

Previous studies had shown that antibodies, which are immune system
proteins that recognize and latch onto germs and abnormal cells, can
also pull beta-amyloid out of the nervous system.

Using infusions of antibodies from blood is called passive
immunization and has been used to fight diseases such as hepatitis.

"Immune therapy for Alzheimer's disease has shown tremendous promise
in the laboratory but has been difficult to translate into clinical
practice," said Dr. Norman Relkin of Weill Cornell Medical College.

Other efforts to make a vaccine against Alzheimer's have been
troubled by complications -- one vaccine caused fatal encephalitis,
a swelling of the brain, for instance.

I think genetics determine how symptoms of some infections are presented.. and in some these can be mis- interpreted as autoimmunity.

Such was the case with me.

Barb

HW Latin----sounds like we have been down a similiar path---with slightly different diagnosis

As far as the steroids--they didn't need to use those to abate the possiability of aseptic meningitis--they could have tried Benadyl--first in oral form, then by IV, if needed.

It leaves you in a state of fog for quite awhile afterwards--but far better than the steroids--IMO

I agree with you observations about the progression for those of us in this situation(I feel like I am just keeping my head above water also)--but keep in mind--if there are found to be true genetic link-ups related to this disease( and other infectious agents), it may indeed be the *Holy Grail* for us

How?

Because if these infectious pathogens are found to be either:
A) Behind certain Somatic(Aquired) genetic mutations.
OR
B) Triggered by germ-line( at birth) genetic mutations( which means you are more likely to contact certain infections, react to certain infections in a particular way,ect.)

No, we may not see complete relief thru these measures in our lifetime--sadly, but your children may!

BPeck: Symptoms of certain infections, and whether they take a certain course can be predicted by your haplotype, and certain alleles' present.

Once again, leprosy is an example of this, as the only other mammal prone to this agent is the poor armadillios' in Texas--that they know of at this time.

Another example is the french patients(in a french study for AIDS) who have been found to be direct descents of people who survived the "Black Plague", of the middle ages( talk about mutations spanning over seven generations--or more)---these patients have recieved a genetic mutation that either protects them from contacting the HIV virus( both genes), or if they do contact the virus at all---have never had a morbidity due to the HIV virus, and have very little complications due to the disease( one gene copy)

This has been on "NOVA"

I had the experince of seeing Dr.James D. Watson---Founder of DNA, and mapper of the genome---speak at U of Houston, last Thursday

If my memory serves me correctly--you are also on another list regarding lyme that I also participate in--under another name

Remember the recent postings with regards to certain infectious agents triggering schizophrenia--in maternal transmission to the developing fetus

We do know that the point 13q31 is the site mutation in an overwhelming( mean ave., 85%) amount of patients who participated in the studies( and there were several studies)

Someone asked Dr. Watson, if he felt "out-side sources", such as chemical exposures, infections, ect. could trigger these innate genetics?

Beyond a shadow of a doubt--and they will have to complete mapping the site locations for more of these conditions( he named, ADHD, Bi-Polar disorder, ect.) before they can then go about the task of trying to match which offending agent triggers what genetic mutation.....or causes a new mutation

Anyway.....

The so called "DUCKS", are going to have to sit up and pay attention to all of this---or all their research money will now be flowing into genetic research, and immunilogicial studies